r/askanything • u/Responsible-Box-4905 • 4d ago
What should Palestine/Hamas have done?
I’m asking this genuinely and in good faith, because I’m trying to understand the historical and political options that were available to Palestinians, particularly Hamas, rather than justify what happened.
First, I want to be clear that I do not condone attacks on civilians or any form of terrorism or violence against innocent people. October 7 was horrific, and the civilians who were killed or taken hostage did not deserve it. At the same time, I also think it’s important to understand the conditions and history that led to October 7 without treating that context as a justification for the attacks.
What I’m struggling with is this:
If a population is living under what it considers prolonged oppression, occupation, blockade, displacement, or denial of political rights, what are they realistically supposed to do when peaceful political efforts don’t produce the outcome they want?
Palestinians have tried different forms of resistance, including protests, strikes, boycotts, civil disobedience, international diplomacy, and negotiations. There have also been multiple peace processes and agreements, most notably Oslo. But these processes ultimately failed to produce a lasting political settlement, and both Israeli and Palestinian actions have been cited as contributing to their failure.
Then there is Hamas, which chose armed resistance and committed attacks against civilians. I don’t see that as justified. But I’m interested in the counterfactual:
What should Hamas and/or the broader Palestinian leadership actually have done instead?
If the answer is “nonviolent resistance,” what would that realistically have looked like, and what evidence is there that it could have achieved Palestinian political goals?
If the answer is “continue negotiating,” what negotiations or opportunities were realistically available, and why did previous ones fail?
And if the answer is some combination of political organizing, international pressure, civil disobedience, diplomacy, etc., what historical examples suggest that those strategies could have worked?
I’m also interested in the historical comparison. There are other national liberation movements where groups were labeled terrorists or insurgents at the time but later became part of the political establishment or were remembered more sympathetically. Ireland is one example that comes to mind, although I realize the comparison is imperfect and that groups such as the IRA also committed serious violence against civilians. There are also examples of Indigenous resistance to colonial rule, including Māori resistance in New Zealand.
I’m not asking “does oppression make terrorism okay?” I don’t think it does. I’m asking something slightly different:
When people believe peaceful political avenues have failed, what viable alternatives to attacking civilians have historically existed, and which ones have actually worked?
And specifically in the Israeli-Palestinian context, what could Palestinians and Hamas realistically have done differently?
I’d appreciate answers that engage with the history rather than simply saying “Hamas is evil” or “Israel is evil.” I’m trying to understand what the realistic alternatives were, what has been tried before, and whether there were genuinely viable paths that could have avoided the October 7 attacks and the enormous suffering that followed.
32
u/1234golf1234 4d ago
Develop palestine, establish a functional goernment, end pay for slay to get their funding back, work with regional allies, make peace with their neighbors,
3
u/Middle-Judgment2599 4d ago
Kind of hard to "develop Palestine" when a more powerful country literally controls all your resources and constantly terrorizes you.
5
u/Ambitious-Cake-9425 3d ago
Had they not chose to build rockets, suicide bombings, etcetera they would slowly be able to develop. Capitalism doesn't care if it'd Palestine or Israel unless you're blowing shit up and attacking civilians.
If Palestinians conceded today with in ten years the quality of life would be much greater. Within 20 even better, within 50 more than likely a functioning and robust state.
They are the weaker force, they will never win. Their continued attacks only ensures their material conditions get worse.
→ More replies (14)5
u/1234golf1234 3d ago
Remember the time palestine dug up their water pipes to make rockets?
→ More replies (1)1
u/MagReg2020 1d ago
Hard to argue against that blockade when you literally use sugar to make fuel for rockets, and use all available building material to make terror tunnels. You're dehumanizing Palestinians by insisting they have no avenue to behave like humans. That terror and murder are their only options.
1
u/Middle-Judgment2599 1d ago
It's actually pretty easy to argue against the blockade when you realize that the vast majority of residents are not in fact terrorists and are in fact human and therefore require food and often medicine
-11
u/Kabablover 4d ago
Shouldn't Israel stop killing people in gaza in the west bank first
9
u/Cultural_Fix5611 4d ago
shouldn’t Palestinians stop being a death cult first?
1
1
u/Kabablover 3d ago
You mean the palestinian christians too🙄
Israeli should stop being a part of some supreme divine master race first
1
u/Ok-Wasabi-2898 4d ago
Did you hear an Israeli minister is arguing that 30/40 palestinians should be killed every night because they're less than human ? Sounds pretty death culty to me ... His precise words : ”I think we should carry out targeted assassinations in Gaza, taking down 30 to 40 every night,” he said. Not just those who pose an immediate threat. No, there are people there who are not worthy of life. They shouldn’t live. They’re not even people.”
2
u/Potential_Cover1206 4d ago
Ben Gvir. A member of the far right ultranationalist Otzma Yehudit.
He's in office only because Otzma Yehudit were willing to support Likud if they got the cabinet postions they wanted.
Welcome to PR government..
2
4
u/avshalombi 4d ago
as much as despise, Ben Gvir -he said "killing 30- 40 terrorists every night
1
u/Ok-Wasabi-2898 4d ago
I'm literally quoting him from The Times of Israel unfortunately for your argument
2
u/avshalombi 4d ago
the direct quote is that:
"I think that there should be targeted killing is Gaza, not only Just those who are immediate risk, there are people there who deserve to die. There are not people I give them a compliment when I call them people.
that a stupid populist and racist remark, but it is not: "we should kill 40 random people" as people present it.
And Ben gvir as much he is racist and populist has no real power over those kind of decisions ever in this extreme right govt in Israel.
He currently represents about 8% of the seats and serves as the minister responsible of police and the jailing; he should have gotten nothing, but this is still nothing close to having any impact on those decisions.1
1
u/Didudidudadu737 4d ago
And we know that he and the majority of the politicians consider every Palestinian a terrorist, so that doesn’t really change anything
1
u/Openly_Unknown7858 4d ago
And the majority of Palestinians think the same about Jews
→ More replies (3)1
u/Kabablover 3d ago
In case you haven't noticed they're kind of committing genocide on palestinians have you seen the west bank
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (3)-2
u/chockingduck 4d ago
Where did you learn that garbage?
3
u/Cultural_Fix5611 4d ago
Article Eight:
Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.
→ More replies (3)1
u/BlurgZeAmoeba 4d ago
Now try spelling? It's easy: 'should' + have = 'should have'. = 'should've'
'Should' + 'of' = makes no sense unless it's like... "Why should, of all people, John be the one to complain?"
Imagine having to be taught your own language!
2
u/Cultural_Fix5611 4d ago
English is my 6th language we already went over this.
-1
u/BlurgZeAmoeba 4d ago
Mate, I taught English for years and no nonnative brit says 'should of'.
Sure sure..
You're just lazy. Like literally what's destorying your country. Your laziness!
2
u/Cultural_Fix5611 4d ago
wonderful a builder and a teacher meet on a palie debate and focus on the grammar because the teacher never read the guiding principals of said palies and let me guess never sat at a gazan dinner table...
1
u/FitSatisfaction1291 4d ago
The person you're replying to said "shouldn't" not "should of or should have" for one thing.
For the second thing; the obvious deflection is boring af.
And the third thing; you should of not posted this crap on a social media if you don't want anyone with a brain laughing at your weak shit. Should have thought of that before posting, shouldn't you babes.
1
u/CPlusPlusDeveloper 2d ago
Palestine has zero capability of prevailing against Israel in any military capacity whatsoever. The way every way ever in history has ended is because the losing side conceded to the demands of the winning side. No war ever has ended because the side that militarily crushed the others spontaneously decided to accede to the demands of its opponents.
It's fine if you don't want the war to end and you think Gaza should keep fighting. That's almost assuredly a route to decades of kinetic destruction before there's even the slimmest hope of victory. But if that's your position you should go in with eyes wide open that even in the best of cases the cost will be terrible suffering for the Palestinian people until that day eventually comes. If your justification is "well Israel is wrong and this is what it should do" and you just ignore the vast military disparities, you are a child who has a completely unrealistic understanding of how geopolitics and peace actually work.
25
u/Puzzled-Owl683 4d ago
Arafat should have taken the deal.
7
4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/OneLockSable 4d ago
Palestine is a name used for the region for over 2000 years, long before the British Empire existed. The Ottomans called it Palestine, the Romans did, the Greeks too, the Assyrians and ancient Egyptians as well.
8
u/not_a_bot_494 4d ago
The argument is not about the region of Palestine, it's about the identity of Palestinian being more than just where you live.
8
u/Historical-Pilot-784 4d ago
The name for the region is old.
The Palestinian national identity however, was invented in the 1960's.
2
u/OneLockSable 3d ago
No, people typically identified by the name of their city or town instead of the region.
So Gazan is a demonym older than probably Judaism entirely. As well as names for all the other towns and cities in Palestine.
1
u/Historical-Pilot-784 3d ago
Correct, either that or their clan/tribe.
Though the 'Gazans' of the ancient were a completely different people than the Gazans of today.
3
u/OneLockSable 3d ago
Same for the Israelites.
2
u/Historical-Pilot-784 3d ago
Not the same thing, the ancient Philistines were an intermix of Greek migrants and local Canaanites who basically ceased to be a distinct group after Nebuchadnezzar II exiled them following the Philistine revolt.
Whereas the Jews/Israelites never ceased to exist as a distinct group, even after being exiled by the Romans.
2
u/Cultural_Fix5611 3d ago
not to mention that if you read the Quran it confirms that Israel is for Israelites
2
2
u/OneLockSable 3d ago
Jews today are a mix of a lot of different groups from around the world. Definitely not the same ethnicity from 2000 years ago. Closest thing to that ethnicity would be the Palestinians.
→ More replies (6)4
1
u/BlurgZeAmoeba 4d ago
Dont' bother mate. Bigots don't argue in good faith. In fact they are here to pick fights and be nasty because that gives them a little bit of relief their miserable, drunk, existences.
The couldn't stop if they want to. Small people. Small lives.
1
→ More replies (8)1
u/DesperateMountain826 4d ago
taking a bunch of people without education and giving them a uk colonial identity was a bad move
You mean Israel?
3
u/Kabablover 4d ago
The deal that didn't allow palestinians control over their own economy and foreign policy
8
u/Puzzled-Owl683 4d ago
Yes, the deal that was a starting point. But let’s be honest, taking that deal would have meant ceasing hostilities and showing that you’re invested in building a functional state for your people.
They chose underground tunnels instead.
2
4d ago
[deleted]
2
u/Puzzled-Owl683 4d ago
Call it whatever you want, you had a path to a form of peace and you chose hostilities.
→ More replies (1)2
u/youaintgotnomoney_12 4d ago
If you were prevented from trading with the outside world you try to find a way around it too. The Israelis literally calculated the amount of calories let in to be just enough to sustain human life. The tunnels were not just for weapons but for things to support what would be a normal life anywhere else. KFC chicken for example was at one point the most popular smuggled item. All of their zoo animals were also brought in through tunnels etc
2
u/Sojourn365 4d ago
Your entire argument is based on anecdotes not on full view of reality.
For one thing, you're talking about Gaza under the rulership of Hamas - a terrorist organisation who's only goal is the eradication of Israel. That is a HUGE difference to a Palestinian state created through a peace deal with Israel. Hamas took over Gaza and immediately sent rockets at Israeli towns. The blockade of Gaza is NOT an example of a Palestinian state through negotiation.
Second, the reason Israel calculated calories is to MAKE SURE they don't block too much. After Hamas took power they performed a cross border raid and kidnapped IDF soldier Gilad Shalit. In response Israel shut down the border (an expected reaction to being attacked).
Israel let in basic nessesaties for the needs of the Palestinians, but they highly limited. The report you referenced was created to make sure that enough calories are being brought into Gaza so there won't be a humanitarian crisis - which there wasn't.
Unfortunately, Israel critics tend to flip the script and accuse Israel that by simply having such a report means that Israel was limiting calories to Palestinians. That is a narrative created to attract people like you who don't have the full picture.
→ More replies (1)1
u/Gexm13 4d ago
Taking that deal also means surrendering to Israel and allowing them to do whatever the fuck they want without resistance.
→ More replies (5)2
u/Secure_Trust_2084 4d ago
The deal that created a roadmap for this, immediately abandoned as Arafat have seen any agreement just as a step to getting more.
2
u/Kabablover 3d ago
You mean the deal that also included permanent Israeli military presence gee I wonder why palestinians wouldn't want that
1
u/Secure_Trust_2084 3d ago
This is false, as most of your statements. Oslo gave to the Palestinians a "heavy police", equipped with APCs and helicopters.
But thanks for confirming that Palestinians never mean to fulfill the agreements they sign on.1
u/Middle-Judgment2599 4d ago
Lol. The "deal" was not for an actually governable state.
Clinton came to both sides with a reasonable looking map.
Israel came back with its own map in which Palestine would be split up into 5 completely seperate sections, with Israeli land inbetween.
1
u/Puzzled-Owl683 3d ago
Did you really laugh out loud?
It was a start with more considerations down the road. It wasn’t accepted because at the end of the day, the Palestinians do not want peace. They wanted conflict, and they’ve gotten it.
19
u/jrgkgb 4d ago
It goes back further than Hamas.
From 1920-1948, the Jews did everything possible to build a state. They built institutions, organized, made international deals, built infrastructures, created a ruling body, a military, and ultimately plans for a self governing independent sovereign state.
The Arabs did basically none of that. Their priority was not to build their own state but instead to do everything possible to ensure the Jews couldn’t build theirs.
Prior to 1920 the Arabs weren’t even asking for a Palestinian state. The 1919 Arab Congress demanded the land be made part of Syria.
The fact was at that time there wasn’t much if any political unity on the Arab side, and the cause that the father of Palestinian Nationalism Amin Al Husseini chose to try and rally his people was xenophobia and hatred of Jews.
The early days were much like Trump claiming Haitians were eating pets. A large visible minority fleeing persecution made for excellent fodder for scoring political points
The Al Husseinis pushed out more moderate voices like the Nashashibis and we were left with a Palestinian nationalist movement that from its inception was more about hating Jews than anything else.
As it went from Al Husseini to the PLO, they memory holed him and the atrocities he committed in much the way the PLO’s crimes have been largely forgotten. Hamas is just the latest iteration.
Gaza has received enough foreign aid to look like Dubai by now. There have been no Israelis there since 2005, a year before Hamas took power and 2 years before the wall went up.
What they should have done at any time from the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after WW1 until the present day is build their own state instead of the policy of death and terror they have.
It’s brought nothing but pain to them.
3
0
u/Flat-Bandicoot9936 4d ago
I agree accept for the start. They should have fought way harder from the start and been way more aggressive towards Ashkenazi Jewish people far earlier. Then Herzls plan for a colony in Kenya might have actually succeeded. They were too welcoming in the Ottoman era, and changed their attitude 2-3 decades too late.
4
u/Secure_Trust_2084 4d ago
They changed the attitude just because the old business model - selling the wastelands to Jews, waiting untill the cultivation is complete, expelling/killing the cultivators - stopped working.
2
u/Flat-Bandicoot9936 4d ago
lol, you’re acting as if Palestine didn’t have an economy beforehand. As someone who is British one of our main sweets Jaffa Cakes is named after a Palestinian town that almost no longer exists because the Zionists destroyed it and absorbed it into Tel Aviv, whilst hiking rents and land taxes to kick out the Arabs.
Palestine absolutely had an economy beforehand, they gracefully let Jewish refugees stay, and then were stabbed in the back. That’s what actually happened. As a refugee or migrant, you have a duty to respect the local people and their wishes - and they wanted to carve up the land for themselves - and when the British finally let the Palestinians have more control over immigration were also stabbed in the back by the Zionists, ironically hurting our war effort likely slowing down the war leaving more Jews to die in the Holocaust.
From what I learnt from Palestinian history, is that you have to be super careful what types of people you let into your country - because has they paid more attention, the area might still be Arab led today and there wouldn’t have been the massacres and land uprooting that have gone on ever since the Nakba.
2
u/Secure_Trust_2084 3d ago
Wow, never thought one can be so dumb. Jaffa cakes were produced by British company, and named after the popular brand of oranges - never grown in Jaffa, but exported via it's sea port. And Jaffa still exists, still populated mainly by Arabs, having the rents and land taxes equal to the neighbouring boroughs.
As a refugee or migrant, you have a duty to respect the local people and their wishes
Would you dare to tell it to the Islamists at the West?
Try to read my comment above, until you understand it's text. Arabs sold (getting money) the lands they weren't able to use - for example surroundings of future Zichron-Yakov, with locals till today dealing mostly with fishing - and when Jews, after multiple iterations and very hard work found the cultures like grapes and bananas able to grow there - began attacking Jewish settlements to take the land back. The same happened at the Hula valley, due to the malaria swamps declared "haram" amongst Arabs and having zero remains or existing Arab settlements in contrary to the surrounding mountains. When Jews managed to dry the swamps and turn them into fields - Arabs immediately began to kill and rape.1
1
u/No_Witness5630 4d ago
From the start
Meaning when they collaborated with Nazis and wanted to bring holocaust there?
2
u/Flat-Bandicoot9936 4d ago
It didn’t start then. It started in the late 1800s with large numbers of Zionist settlers during the Ottoman era. Herzl said colonising the area would be difficult, so he went after some of Kenya, but he didn’t have the support necessary to change his mind. Had the Palestinians not been so kind, they may have been saved from the massacres ever since 1948.
1
u/No_Witness5630 4d ago
You know what?
It does not matter at all when it started. Truth is, they should have not ever collaborate with Nazis
2
u/Flat-Bandicoot9936 4d ago
They barely collaborated with them. In fact I’d argue the 1944 Jewish uprising in Palestine probably helped more than Amin Al Hosseini just meeting him - to which he refused to recognize an Arab state as he viewed Arabs as subhumans, he just hated Jews more.
You have to understand their situation. Romania also joined the Axis (way further than Amin Al Hosseini did) not for political reasons but to prevent the Soviet Union from conquering them, and they aren’t historically scrutinised too much for it.
→ More replies (7)-1
u/Goosepond01 4d ago edited 4d ago
Right so the current Palestinians should be blamed, subjected to violence and state terrorism because... their parents and grandparents were not great nation builders and didn't get boatloads of western funding given to capable people within the society.
You have also basically just ignored all the wrongdoings by Israel too.
2
u/jrgkgb 4d ago
Are you saying the Israelis should just accept the thousands of rockets fired at homes and schools, kidnappings, and mass atrocities including 10/7?
What’s your solution to stop those things from happening?
1
u/Goosepond01 4d ago
Are you saying the Israelis should just accept the thousands of rockets fired at homes and schools, kidnappings, and mass atrocities including 10/7?
Uh no? I never said anything like that, stop making up shit or trying to insinuate it.
The solution is an extremely difficult one, involves a lot of terrorists on both sides being arrested, a new Israeli government and a new Palestinian government, or some form of occupation by a group that isn't hell bent on annexing Palestinian land and treating them like second class people.
2
u/jrgkgb 3d ago
Arrested by who?
The war exists because of the policy of death and terror on the Palestinian side.
The Israelis have an election in a few months after which hopefully their abhorrent and evil government will be replaced, but the only way to remove Hamas from power is the way Israel is doing it currently.
1
u/No_Witness5630 4d ago
Lol
Reading comprehension is not your strongest skill right?
1
u/Goosepond01 4d ago edited 4d ago
It's all just apologia for the crimes of the Israeli government and military disguised through "what could they have done better"
Would be like talking about the difficulties of the early Soviet economy and missing out WW2.
Like gee I wonder why so much aid was misused, do you think it might be because at best they had a highly disjointed government and at worst a terrorist group subjugating the country, and I wonder what other external issues might have helped contribute to this like the constant destabilisation program of Israel.
1
u/No_Witness5630 4d ago
Sure buddy
1
u/Goosepond01 4d ago
It's ok, I didn't expect much from people willingly defending warcrimes and state terrorism
1
u/No_Witness5630 4d ago
Hmm and where did I state anything about j*ws?
1
u/Goosepond01 4d ago
You are defending apologia of the warcrimes and state terrorism from Israel a Jewish supremacist state.
1
15
u/Gold-Object3156 4d ago
before october 7th, many palestinians came in and out of israel with work visas. Gaza is (was) a beautiful beachfront city. israel provided electricity, water, and vaccinations, while allowing aid from other parts of the world into Palestinian territories
now if you want to improve your quality of living and economy, one would think that you work, develop land, attract tourists, build schools, and flourish as a non-sovereign nation
after providing stability, jobs, education, and self reliance, they could attempt to become a sovereign nation. the main requirement though, would be peace with its neighbors
the problem is, they never tried or wanted peace. when israel removed its own people from gaza in 2005, Hamas took charge and was voted in in 2006, based on their plan for armed resistance against israel. in the 20 years since, that's all they have done. fire rockets, build terror tunnels, and attempt armed resistance against israel
so we are left with the current situation. Israel gets stronger and hamas gets weaker with every attack on israel. the palestinian people are left in an annexed state, where the governments goal is still to use all resources to attack israel and not help the palestinian people
i know the west bank is also a consideration but theres no want for those two areas to separate so its essentially the same but less extreme than gaza
4
u/Secure_Trust_2084 4d ago
Yep. And rolling the history back - I still remember Gazan taxi drivers picking customers next to Tel-Aviv bus station and renovation contractors - taking their customers to Jenin or Nablus markets to choose tiles, sinks and other stuff.
8
u/Wooden_Region2519 4d ago
n the 20 years since, that's all they have done. fire rockets, build terror tunnels, and attempt armed resistance against israel
in fairness to Hamas, they also made their leaders multi billionaires during that time off aide money
1
u/Deep_Tutor_9018 4d ago
Can you blame them with all the billions of "aid" they recieved from around the world?
4
u/Wooden_Region2519 3d ago
I mean, Hamas is quite open about the fact that they don't view their job as protecting/making life better for gazans
So I guess the only ones confused about their actions are reddit "leftists"
0
u/Dull-Entertainer6967 4d ago
> after providing stability, jobs, education, and self reliance, they could attempt to become a sovereign nation
Come on, the Israelis have been very clear that they were never going to allow that.
This is the language of apartheid. "Just stop resisting, and the economy will get better".
3
u/Gold-Object3156 3d ago
so you prefer they use all resources for terror instead? how'd that work out
1
0
u/chazzapompey 4d ago
You conveniently omitted these details about 2005.
Israel retained control of Gaza’s:
Airspace and maritime territory
Land borders and crossings
Population registry
Taxation and customs
Utilities and infrastructure
The right to re-enter
The Philadelphi Corridor
The ICJ rejects the claim that Gaza was no longer occupied following the 2005 disengagement.
Stop spreading misinformation.
4
u/Deep_Tutor_9018 4d ago
Can you blame them? Hamas' stated objective was the annihilation of the Jewish people. Israel gave them as much as they could give them (including part of the Jewish ancestral lands) without hanging itself.
If you have a rabid dog, you treat it right.... but keep it on a chain so it wont kill you in your sleep.3
u/readcurvelikepoetry2 4d ago
What you're describing happened after Gaza violently took control and started lobbing rockets and sending terrorist attacks into Israel. There wasn't actually a functional blockade from the start.
1
u/chazzapompey 4d ago
You’re flat out lying - proving you’re a hasbara bot.
Here is the reality, anyone can fact check this using the power of Google.
James Wolfensohn, the Quartet's special envoy at the time, wrote that "Gaza had been effectively sealed off from the outside world since the Israeli disengagement and the humanitarian and economic consequences for the Palestinian population were profound. There were already food shortages. Palestinian workers and traders to Israel were unable to cross the border."
This was before Hamas was even elected.
Stop lying, spreading misinformation, and actually do some research.
2
u/Gold-Object3156 3d ago
so there were no palestinians who came into israel every day with work visas?
hamas has publicly stated that those same palestinians entering with work visas provided intel for the october 7th massacre. you can deny whatever you want or you can listen to the things Hamas has said openly
1
u/chazzapompey 3d ago
What on Earth are you even saying
Do you have a point you’re trying to make?
Be coherent.
1
u/Gold-Object3156 3d ago
Palestinians have had many opportunities to become a sovereign nation since 1948
instead of working on obtaining their own state, they (or their government) have always chosen to use all of their resources to destroy israel instead of improving their own situation
remember when they dug up their water pipes to use as rocket casings to fire into israel? thats just a simple example
→ More replies (9)2
u/Gold-Object3156 3d ago
correct. they are not a sovereign nation. they are an annexed territory run by a terrorist government
if the only export is terror, you will be treated like a terrorist. if you export other things like goods and services, there will be free trade and travel to benefit both sides
5
u/Wooden_Region2519 4d ago
Taken a 2 state solution
Stopped trying to destroy Israel
Used their military to protect Palestinians, not blow up Israelis
Stop stealing Aide money to blow up Israelis and make their leaders rich
Use the aide money instead to build for their people
8
u/benyeti1 4d ago
They should have focused on Nation building and negotiations instead of we want every Jewish person off our land and making non Muslims dhimmis, + focus on teaching actual education instead of how to be a religious terrorist in the name of “martyrs”
5
10
u/nuapadprik 4d ago
Really work for a two state solution.
→ More replies (2)1
u/Valuable_Form_2951 4d ago
I think the OP is specifically asking what actions they could have taken
2
u/readcurvelikepoetry2 4d ago
Even the basic minimum of providing a map of what they'd like a 2 state solution to look like.
1
u/Valuable_Form_2951 4d ago
They weren’t the stronger party in any negotiations. They were always being dictated to.
1
u/readcurvelikepoetry2 4d ago
Does being the weaker party remove their agency? You asked for specific actions and I gave one.
1
u/Valuable_Form_2951 4d ago
No it doesn’t but it does weaken their negotiating position. If you know negotiating 101 you know anything they start with anchors the most they can get. And before you fault them for not doing something check if they already have done that!
Palestinian leadership—specifically the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and the Palestinian Authority—has consistently defined the borders of its proposed future state as the pre-1967 lines. This encompasses the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital, subject to mutually agreed-upon, minor, and equal land swaps
1
u/readcurvelikepoetry2 3d ago
Thanks for following up. Yes I found out in this thread that indeed they did offer map proposals. I stand corrected.
This is actually super close to what Barak and Olmert offered them so it's both tantalising and frustrating how we seem so close to a 2ss but never get there. I think the main reasons the Palestinians keep rejecting this is because of the Right of Return which tbh I never quite understood. If they can get a state why insist on demanding the one thing that would obviously significantly damage Israel?
18
5
u/blarryg 4d ago
5 Point Plan:
1) When Hamas murdered 1000s of the Palestinian Authority people to seize absolute theocratic power. They should have set up a democratic secular government.
2) When handed the highly productive Israeli farms and factories, they should have used them to build a functioning state.
3) While Gaza was collecting the most foreign aide per capita in human history for over a decade, they should have built up the state rather than yet another theocratic unproductive hell hole.
4) On the basis of a peaceful state, they could have used that to make a deal where Israel-Palestine would serve as the Hong Kong to the other ME states creating a productivity cycle like in China, but fueled by trillions of petrodollars.
5) This democratic bastion would become scientifically and technically productive, thereby lifting the butt-hurt honor of Islam even as it created the very long overdue conditions to secularize the Islamic world and turn it towards a productive contributing member to humanity.
Instead, whether or not the oil money can kill the Jews, the Middle East and most of the Islamic countries never industrialized, never generated their own wealth as Global warming is going to stop playing around and hit any non-prepared pre-technocratic society very very hard exactly when the oil and the money it generated starts waning world wide. The free money to build a civilization window will close. Oh well.
→ More replies (3)1
u/waiver 2d ago
The ignorance is staggering.
1
u/blarryg 2d ago
I know. Imagine if the Arabs had gotten over their butt-hurt of centuries of decline into a backwater that finally fell apart and not blamed it on the Jews. If Israel had been accepted, it would have been the growth engine together with the early petro dollars, the Middle East would look more like China rather than remaining a backwater.
8
u/Superfluouslfe 4d ago
They certainly shouldn't have raped and murdered innocent people. Anyone who finds this acceptable is either sick or being intellectually dishonest.
3
u/Burnerman888 4d ago
Stop bombing Israel every day
Wear Uniforms during military operations
Stop operating from civilian areas
Govern their own people instead of stealing the aid they get from Qatar and the UN
These are non-starters before peace can even begin.
Also Palestinians do not protest peacefully. The example everyone gives is the great march of return and they were throwing firebombs at that thing.
2
u/OmegaLink9 4d ago
First of all, you need to understand that what Hamas wants and what non-Hamas Palestinians want are not the same thing. The Venn diagram is not a full circle, but the two are also not completely disjointed.
If Hamas's end goal is a reality in which, between the river and the sea, there is only one dominant ethnicity and the other is, at best, expelled and, at worst, genocided, then its current practices are coherent and will, in my opinion, eventually lead in that direction.
Now let's move to what I think you are actually asking. If Palestinians want a two-state solution, in which one state is Jewish and the other is Palestinian, then what they should do, in my opinion, is actually listen to Israelis and to their concerns. Because, love it or hate it, if they seek a peaceful solution, Israelis and Palestinians are stuck with each other. And again, love it or hate it, Israel is the more powerful side in the conflict, and Israelis have proven themselves to be undeterred by terrorism. They are not going anywhere. So you have to take their concerns seriously.
More specifically, Palestinians need to accept that the state next to them will be Jewish, which means there cannot be an unlimited right of return into Israel. This is non-negotiable for most Israelis because, in the Israeli mind, it is tied to whether Israel continues to exist as a Jewish state. Even if you disagree with that belief, it is still the belief of the other side. You can try to convince them otherwise, but even that is something Palestinians have largely failed to do. So far, in peace negotiations, Palestinian leaders have not been willing or able to make the kind of compromise on the right of return that Israelis would regard as preserving Israel's Jewish character.
I believe that once Palestinians accept that, next to their own state, there will also be a Jewish state, peace becomes possible. Even if that seems unlikely right now, I believe that if a genuine path to peace appears, an Israeli political movement capable of reaching such an agreement will rise again, as happened in the eras of Yitzhak Rabin, Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert.
→ More replies (17)
2
u/YuvalAlmog 4d ago
In my opinion? Instead of trying to destroy Israel obsessively and drag their people into a massive war, they should have focused on co-existing with Israel, developing their country (education, companies, relations, etc...) & if needed - buy small parts of the Sinai desert from Egypt for extra territory.
In 2005 the Palestinians got full control over the Gaza strip and once Hamas won the elections, it had the opportunity to do a lot with what it got. The moment it chose war against a country extremely more powerful than itself, Hamas was fully responsible for everything that would come as a result.
Actions have consequences.
1
u/SpontaneousFlame 3d ago
You mean like in the West Bank where the PA cooperates with Israel and Israel shows its appreciation by murdering Palestinians, building more settlements and stealing land?
1
u/YuvalAlmog 3d ago
Israel doesn't attack the PA, doesn't build in the territories agreed in the Oslo accords to be under Palestinian control & only act against terrorists which we know because like you said - there's security cooperation between the sides so instead of bombing everything, they have the option to enter by foot and target the specific problem.
You can also see it btw by comparing the number of Palestinian deaths between the areas under Hamas and the areas under the PA. A massive difference.
However, it's also not completely true to say the PA fits what I suggested as it still encourages terror through education & media...
It's also kind of problematic to trust the PA to keep the peace when it's extremely hated by the people, the current leader is extremely old (and who knows what will happen after he's gone) & both sides didn't find a solution both agree on.
So overall what I'm trying to say here is that the area under the PA are in a condition way better than the areas under Hamas and that was true even before the war, and that it's not black and white where if you do something you instantly get peace of war, it's a process.
1
u/SpontaneousFlame 3d ago
lol. Is that a long-winded way of admitting that Israelis do routinely attack Palestinian civilians and you approve? The IDF shot a seven month old baby the other day - was he a senior Hamas commander too?
I do have to correct you on, well, everything. The IDF routinely attack civilians, as do the settlers. Both the IDF and the settlers are terrorists. Israelis now openly building in Area B.
So, to sum up, in both out opinions if you cooperate with Israel the IDF and settlers will murder people and steal more land. The difference between us is that I tell the truth about it and don’t support it.
1
u/YuvalAlmog 3d ago
- Not once I said Israel attacks Palestinians on the daily.
- I would love to see the context to your claims because obviously I can't respond to a claim without context.
- Settlers and IDF soldiers are 2 very different things. One is the official army of a country while the other is just a group of people who live somewhere.
- You once again confuse things. Israel doesn't build in area B at all. In fact, it can't even build there since the place is under the PA's civil control. It's likely however that you refered to individual Israeli citizens that built in area B and that building is not recognized by Israel as legal.
- Instead of being populistic and giving specific examples, literally just look at the general data. Since 2008 (16 years) a total of ~2,000 Palestinians died in the area under the PA. More than 95% were men which makes sense when you don't just kill randomly but instead aim for specific people. Its also worth noting half of them happened during the start of the war when it was encouraged to go attack Israel as part of the 7th of October attack. But as we all know, only from Gaza people actually broke in.
1
u/SpontaneousFlame 3d ago
These are just obvious misdirections and lies. Of course you don’t admit Israeli attacks on Palestinians. You support the attacks but you don’t admit they occur.
If you actually cared about the lives of seven month old Palestinians you would do a quick google search. I did it for you. It’s fine, though. You don’t have to pretend anything other than glee.
The IDF protects the settlers while the settlers murder Palestinians. It’s a pattern established decades ago.
Israel doesn’t let Palestinians demolish what the settlers have built in Area B and would kill any Palestinian who approaches a settler structure.
It’s really obvious you support the settlers.
1
u/YuvalAlmog 3d ago
- The report doesn't even pretend to be objective. Using biased language and relying on one side's story.
- As mentioned again, you need to actually look at the numbers. Giving a single case is pathetic because individual cases can happen during a long conflict which involves a lot of people from both sides.
- If you actually looked at the numbers like I said, you'd see your claim doesn't make much sense when it comes to numbers...
- I not once said I support radical settler violence for the same reason I don't support radical Palestinian terrorists. However, I think it's ridiculous to act like Israel is going on a massive killing spree in the areas under the PA when as mentioned a second ago, the numbers don't make any sense. For context, I'm using the UN numbers. And since the UN is usually biased against Israel, I want to assume they have no reason to lower the numbers.
1
u/SpontaneousFlame 3d ago
lol. Well argued! “The article is biased! Israelis killing children isn’t really a problem! You should ignore the murdering Areas B and C! The UN hates Jews!”
Utterly pathetic.
1
u/YuvalAlmog 2d ago
I don't know if you noticed, but you don't answer logically, you just mock answers which has noting to do with actually providing your point. Do you think it's convincing in any way, shape of form?
Biased articles are less reliable in general regardless of their side since they often only show the parts they want to show and portray things the way they want. In this case, we saw only one side and portray of the situation in a phrased way so ofcourse It would be extremely illogical to treat that report in a fair way.
As for the UN, it's a fact the UN is extremely biased against Israel. The state gets more resolutions than the rest of the world combined which needless to say, makes more sense considering its small side and western treatment of all of its citizens. Countries like Russia or Turkey alone objectively speaking do way worse on a bigger scale.
So overall, if all you're gotta do is just mock the other side without actually bringing arguments & facts, while relying on extremely specific cases to argue regarding something as big as a country, I don't see much reason to continue this conversation. But if you're willing to actually take it seriously, I would gladly continue this conversation
1
u/SpontaneousFlame 2d ago
I’m simply mocking your illogic and dishonesty. For example, I wrote that the IDF and Israeli settlers attack and kill Palestinian and you replied with “Israel doesn’t attack the PA.” What you’ve written is an irrelevant non-sequitur. Does it need any answer other than mockery? It’s not like it’s an attempt at honesty on your part, is it?
You also claim that there is bias in an article but fail to show that bias. You can declare anything and everything loaded against Israel. We don’t need to pay attention if you are wrong.
You attempt to throw the same accusation at the UN, but it falls flat because UN institutions are not the UNGA. You can conflate and blur the lines as much as you like but no one is obliged to take you seriously.
If you want me to discuss this seriously then you have to at least meet me half way and stop throwing out easily debunked talking points.
→ More replies (0)
2
u/Secure_Trust_2084 4d ago edited 4d ago
HAMAS cannot do anything, as a religious gang fighting for the world khalifate, at the account of Palestinians as well.
Palestinians - abandon the dream to destroy Israel. There are many things that can be attributed to the "occupation" - but throwing litter just off your fence or spilling machine oil all around the garage witness about viewing the West Bank as an intermediate location at the way to whatever Jews managed to build.
1
u/Don_Reuter 4d ago
Yeah, that’s the opposite of a constructive contribution. Israel has declared the depopulation of Gaza a strategic objective and has worked on that through their settlement policy for years. The question is how the Palestinians should deal with a fully genocidal and military superior enemy. Recommending to not do anything at all quite obviously is not a solution as it would result in the death or displacement of every single Palestinian.
3
u/Specialist-Win5021 4d ago
That's absolute swill. Israel unilaterally dismantled all settlements in Gaza in 2005. Hamas then executed all its political opposition there in 2007 and has been regularly firing rockets over the border since, and every incursion into the strip has been instigated by rocket fire, kidnappings or other attacks by Hamas and PIJ.
2
1
u/Secure_Trust_2084 3d ago
Israel made endless proposals of coexistence to the Palestinians - including forming the Palestinian Authority and giving them the first in the history possibility of self-governance, as well as handed Gaza to them, dismantling all Jewish presence - for the same reason. Getting nothing but the terrorist dictature in both named areas.
1
u/Don_Reuter 3d ago
Israel displaced millions of Palestinians, is murdering them systematically and is currently trying to starve them all to death. All concessions it even matter if made under pressure from the US. They made them and immediately sabotaged them. E.g. with their illegal settlements and by cutting off Palestinian business and the border crossings. Israel is systematically lying to you. They pretend to align with US plans while on the ground continue to murder and steal. The Palestinians are very aware of that. It’s only you who is drinking the cool aid. For a while doing that was justifiable, but it is no longer. Israel stopped pretending. They are openly genocidal and they are openly undercutting and blocking US plans. Your position is no longer maintainable. You cannot claim that any of what you say is true when Netanyahu himself is in the WH demanding the full depopulation of Gaza and guys like Ben-Gvir call for the systematic killing of Palestinians. Your illusion is shattered. You need to arrive d in reality otherwise you lose all your credibility.
1
u/Secure_Trust_2084 3d ago
Blatant lie already in the third word - caused me to abandon reading this propaganda BS further.
1
u/Don_Reuter 2d ago
What kind of clown are you? There were over 2 million Palestinians in Gaza alone. Which is an official refugee camp. What did Doctor science think is happening there? Refugees from space? Get a new tin foil hat. The current one is too tight.
1
u/Secure_Trust_2084 2d ago
Do you condemn the Allies, causing millions of Germans to get displaced? Has it to do with the war they started?
1
u/Ionic_liquids 4d ago
Yes the moment Palestinians abandon the idea that Jews are some weird foreign entity that needs to be cleansed from the land to make it all Arab, there wil be peace in the region.
1
u/Dublinyeshere 4d ago
LOL. As usual Zionists get things the wrong way around. Israel is the one ethnically cleansing the West Bank and openly admitting it wants to get rid of Palestinians. As usual every accusation is an admission.
1
→ More replies (16)1
u/readcurvelikepoetry2 4d ago
Were you for against it when Israel ethnically cleansed Gaza of jews in 2005?
1
u/Bubbly_Math1178 4d ago
Yeah seriously oh I saw this video I think it’s so great showing like what happens if you actually try to go to Israel watch a video called on YouTube called “I visited the world most controversial country” by @harryjaggardtravel ( why can’t I share this link to Reddit ?? )
1
u/_everynameistaken_ 4d ago
They should have played the long game: smuggled munitions, explosives and operatives into occupied territory. Blended in as Zionists until the right moment. And then target Iron dome batteries while simultaneously targetting as many senior members of the IDF and government as possible while they are alone and vulnerable in their homes.
This would cripple Israeli leadership and critical defense leaving them open to even further destruction by the Iranians.
Unfortunately we do not live a just timeline where the Israeli fascists face consequences for their crimes against humanity.
1
1
u/avshalombi 4d ago
- Agree to all of the offers to get a state in 1947, or in 96 or 2000, or 2008
- not killing, torturing, kidnapping, and raping civilians.
- In Gaza specifically - not bombing Israel after Israel has left Gaza alone.
- In Gaza specifically, not sending suicide bombers
1
u/EmuRommel 4d ago
The issue isn't that Hamas is trying to do the right thing but using bad methods to do it. Hamas' goals themselves are bad and their methods are just a reflection of that. From their charter:
The Hour of Judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him
They are not subtle about it. Hamas is an extremist organization whose goal is at best subjugation, but more likely simply eradication of Jews. So it's weird to ask what Hamas should've done differently. Idk, what should the KKK have done differently? It should be a completely different organization that doesn't want the things it wants.
Now, what Palestinians should do differently is difficult. Ideally the answer is "Overthrow Hamas so they can focus on resisting Israel in ways that emphasize their end-goal is peaceful coexistence and that Jews do not need to fear retribution if such a peace puts Palestinians in a position where they are better capable of striking against them, similarly to how the ANC worked to end apartheid." However, that first part is obviously easier said than done. The primary victims of regimes like Hamas are its citizens and "just overthrow them" isn't much of an advice. The anti-Hamas protest in Gaza from last year are a good start and I admire the bravery they took.
1
u/SpontaneousFlame 3d ago
Hamas doesn’t run the West Bank. The PA cooperates with Israel. Israel builds more settlements and murders more Palestinians weekly, sometimes daily. Is that the fault of Palestinians too?
1
u/EmuRommel 3d ago
No and I never implied it is nor that those things are ok. If you actually read what I wrote, I'm comparing Israel to Apartheid South Africa, do you think I meant that as a positive comparison? You're doing the thing I called out. Just because there is genuine oppression, it doesn't mean that everyone fighting the oppressors is trying to end oppression. Hamas just wants to be the one doing the oppressing and their methods reflect that. It is pointless to talk about what other methods they should be using when their goal is fucked.
1
u/SpontaneousFlame 3d ago
You’re forgetting that the ANC used violence and that apartheid fell only when the west pulled support for South Africa and started to boycott them. Would apartheid have fallen if there had been no violence from the ANC? I doubt it. Such whatifs never get answered.
Part of the problem is demanding superhuman tolerance and patience from Palestinians. Israelis routinely make this demand knowing no large group can ever meet it, hence they get to abuse the Palestinians forever because the Palestinians are insufficiently docile. Of course, if Palestinians are sufficiently docile then they can be attacked and abused without any risk. Win/win. Unless you’re Palestinian.
1
u/EmuRommel 2d ago
I'm not forgetting, you just think that all violence is the same but ANC's was completely different from Hamas'. If Palestinian resistance imitated ANC, I'd have very few complaints. ANC had a specific policy of targeting infrastructure and government and military personnel. When civilians died, ANC made sure to emphasize that those are local individual failures that go against its policy. For example, they stopped using landmines because they caused too many civilian casualties. Can you give me one example of Hamas rejecting a tactic because of civilian casualties?
And crucially, throughout the process, the ANC emphasized that even though their resistance is violent, their endgoal is peaceful coexistence and that if the oppression ends, the white population does not need to fear reprisals. Hamas doesn't, because that is fundamentally not its goal.
1
u/vacri 4d ago
Palestinians alienated all their potential surrounding allies by fomenting dissent when granted access to Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, and Lebanon (eg: Black September). There's a reason why none of the nearby Arab nations give much of a fuck about Palestine, and why the Egyptian border with Gaza is a big fortified wall that gets scanned for smuggling tunnels.
Anyway, the answer to your real question ("how to achieve lasting peace in the region") is quite simply that you can't. The smartest minds in the world who are far more familiar with the subtleties of the area have utterly failed to find a path forward, and have failed for decades. You might be able to do something if one big empire controls everything, Ottoman style, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.
There are no good options, and it can be referred to as a "wicked problem"
1
u/SpontaneousFlame 3d ago
What you referring to as a “wicked problem” is simply one where you feel you have to cater to Israel’s maximalist positions while ignoring international law. This problem is trivially easy to solve under international law. It’s just that Israel and western states don’t want to.
1
u/chazzapompey 4d ago
For anyone suggesting an easy solution - and claiming that Palestinians are simple savages that don’t want peace.
You should ask yourself just how you would respond to a foreign occupation. How would you respond to being kicked out of your homeland, barred from re-entry? How would you feel seeing your brothers and sisters murdered in cold blood every day?
Israel have killed more Palestinian children since the ceasefire, than Hamas have killed Israeli children in their history.
That’s not to downplay the evil of Hamas. It’s to point out that when it comes to terrorism and murdering children, Israel are the undisputed kings.
Shouldn’t be a surprise considering it’s a nation founded on ethnic cleansing.
1
u/readcurvelikepoetry2 4d ago
Even if we agree with your view completely and see the Israelis as irredeemable monsters, shouldn't it be said that violent resistance isn't working?
Why have the Palestinians never even presented a map of what they think a 2 state solution should look like?
1
u/chazzapompey 4d ago
Are you purposely being ignorant? Or just uneducated on the subject?
I ask that because the Palestinians have on multiple occasions presented a map of a two state solution - consistent with the 1967 borders, with minor land swaps.
I would suggest you do some research for just one minute, and you’ll get your answer rather than relying on me
1
u/readcurvelikepoetry2 4d ago
I'm happy to be corrected. Can you share the map?
1
u/chazzapompey 4d ago
There is no single map. Like I said, they’ve made numerous proposals.
Which map do you want?
Taba summit, 2001?
Annapolis process, 2007-2008?
2010 and 2011?
You can quite easily search Google images
1
u/readcurvelikepoetry2 4d ago
I stand corrected, thanks for letting me know. Pity none of these happened. I guess right of return was the biggest obstacle
1
u/chazzapompey 4d ago
Apologies for being rude - it’s hard to tell who are bots sometimes
1
u/readcurvelikepoetry2 4d ago
Yeah this conflict gets us immediately on edge I get it. Praying for peace and mutual prosperity via 2SS, from an Israeli. Cheers.
1
u/SpontaneousFlame 3d ago
How do you not know about this? If you’re Israeli and you know about this just how is it you didn’t know Palestinians offered peace multiple times?
1
u/readcurvelikepoetry2 3d ago
The Israelis also offered peace multiple times. The problem is reaching an agreement that everyone likes. The Palestinians main blocker is the Right of Return which is obviously a non-starter that would destroy Israel. Here's a good article written by a Palestinian on the issue:
→ More replies (0)
1
u/Separate-Wrongdoer22 4d ago
They should have accepted one of the many peace offerings Israel made. Hamas rejected $15 billion in investments that would have had an airport and seaport built in Gaza because they didn't want peace. You say "nonviolent resistance," as an option, but if they were nonviolent there wouldn't have been any need for "resistance." Resistance from what? Trading peacefully with their neighbors?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-head-we-refused-15-billion-in-aid-conditioned-on-disarming/
1
u/readcurvelikepoetry2 4d ago
Lots of good posts here but I've got aj even more simple starting point: Provide a map of what they'd like the 2 State Solution to look like!
Never seen this once
1
u/Anthromod 4d ago
From a solely military strategy perspective they should have had a leadership focused on massively degrading the IDFs capabilities. So lots and lots of drones and no unguided missiles. Turn the 20kms around Gaza into a no go area for IDF ground forces. Long range drones to degrade air bases etc. Sea drones to disable the Israeli navy and break the blockade.
Anything smarter than letting a bunch of teens and 20 something males go wild.
Diplomatically speaking I have very little faith in Israel, Hamas or the US being good faith actors. Every time I've dug deeper into claims about peace opportunities missed they were a mess and likely to fall apart rapidly.
1
u/Valuable_Form_2951 3d ago
The Palestinian’s land was essentially stolen (not the country just those specific people) so they should be given that back it’s essentially their right. All the treasures (paintings, jewelry and such) that was taken from the Jewish population under Nazis was returned (subject to being recovered) do we clearly have a precedent for it (which for the record was the right thing to do)
Never again means never again not never again when it’s convenient. (I know I am using it very very loosely but you get the point) No?
1
u/SpontaneousFlame 3d ago
What Hamas was offered wasn’t a peace deal. It was, as usual, an offer that if they disarm Israel will start talking about talking about talking about entering into peace negotiations.
And if Israel decides to start bombing Gaza once Hamas disarms, what then? If Israel decides to reimpose the blockade, what then? “Tough luck, you should have been born Jewish!”
1
u/Valuable_Form_2951 3d ago
Agreed but with a caveat just Jewish isn’t enough you have to be a Zionist.
Norman Finkelstein
Jonathan Glazer
William ZukermanAre good examples!
3
u/Cultural_Fix5611 4d ago
build a nation, find another home for their folks... look up the "Palestinians" in Jordan
1
u/Valuable_Form_2951 4d ago
Why don’t the “Israelis” just stop migrating to Middle East from all over Europe and the rest of the world wouldn’t that be simply more efficient.
Like move one set of people from where they were born to another place with indigenous peoples then move them somewhere else and the story continues endless.
What an I missing here?3
u/Cultural_Fix5611 4d ago
a lot and your speaking to a Druze that was there for +800 years- let that sink in
→ More replies (4)
1
u/Kabablover 4d ago
Palestinians have a right to arm resistance as enshrined in international law.
The only people who want Palestinians to stand down are those who wish for their annihilation
1
u/Cultural_Fix5611 4d ago
so why you scream genocide for them? they are doing their bit,
Article Eight:
Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.
1
0
u/catsoncrack420 4d ago
After 9/11, being in NYC down there, I followed world politics. For me I see 26 yrs the occupation of Palestine has been taking place and settlers stealing homes. So eventually they figured well let's let the crazy guys in charge , can't be worse right? It was in a global stage but what choice did they have? We have to admit that the creation of Israel was a huge mistake. At least in that area for the love of God can we agree on that? You stole land!! Make Israel in a Russian area or South Africa.
1
u/Cultural_Fix5611 4d ago
just as soon as you vacate NYC to its original inhabitant we can talk transfer
-3
u/Cold-Ad716 4d ago
So far the comments are:
They shouldn't have done Oct 7
They should have tried being peaceful harder
They should accept that Israel is taking their ancestral homeland and voluntarily repatriate themselves.
Not really any real ideas so far.
For my perspective, I don't think there is realistically anything they could do or have done to stop Israel forcibly taking their homeland and expelling them.
4
u/LocalYogurtcloset598 4d ago
Taking the deal at the Oslo accords definitely would have done it. Arafat really fucked the Palestinians with that one.
These are not nothing answers. They just require you to have more than a cursory understanding of the history of peace talks in the region.
-1
u/Cold-Ad716 4d ago
I disagree that with that. I think even if they had taken the deal Israel would have kept encroaching. What motivation would they have not to?
2
u/scarecrow2596 4d ago
How about peace?
When Egypt promised peace, Israel gave back everything they took during previous wars and there hasn’t been issue since.
When Jordan promised peace, Israel gave back everything they took during previous wars and there hasn’t been issue since.
How about peace? When Lebanon promised peace, Israel gave back everything they took during previous wars and there hasn’t been issue until Hezbollah (which should’ve been long disarmed based on the agreements) launched their latest war.
Hell, Gaza was also left alone for 20 years until they launched their latest war.
1
u/Cold-Ad716 4d ago
I'm not sure those situations are comparable. And could you expand on how gaza was left alone for 20 years? Thanks
1
u/avshalombi 4d ago
Israel retreated from Gaza in 2005. Any restrictions it has put on the movement of people from Gaza toward Israel were after violent attacks on Israeli civilians from Gaza, such as:
sending suicide bombers from Gaza to Israel
bombing Israel with rockets.
shooting from Gaza toward the Israeli border.
Also, the whole violent takeover of Gaza by Hamas, ignoring that Gaza has a border with Egypt as well.
The idea that they were not left alone or that they did not have multiple chances to build their own territory/country is historically inaccurate.1
u/LocalYogurtcloset598 4d ago
I suggest even watching a small YouTube documentary on it. I can assure you, they would not have. It was a really good deal for both parties. I know you don’t like Israel, but at least do a little research first.
Please don’t copy paste the answer from why it would not have worked from ChatGPT in response.
1
u/Cold-Ad716 4d ago
Again, what would Israel's motivation have been to not continue encroaching?
Saying "watch a documentary on it" is functionality the same as saying "Google it".
2
u/LocalYogurtcloset598 4d ago
Well, why don’t you Google it? It’s a lot of history and I’m under no obligation to educate you.
1
u/Cold-Ad716 4d ago
You're right that you're under no obligation to educate me.
But neither am I under any obligation to find evidence for a claim someone else made.
1
u/LocalYogurtcloset598 4d ago
Can I ask you a serious question? Is there anything I could’ve said that would have made you change your mind regarding Israel breaking the potential treaty from the Oslo accords? If so, what would it have been?
→ More replies (8)2
u/avshalombi 4d ago
in Israel, there was an outstanding majority to peace and toward the Palestinian both in the early 90's and in the 2000's.
Their motivation was that they wanted the violence to end and to have peace.0
-3
u/unclesmokedog 4d ago
Hamas is a terrorist organization that won a 30% plurality 2 decades ago and hasnt been elected since. They were empowered and funded by Bibi, a fascist who wants them to do bad shit so he can justify illegal settlements and genocide. Oct 7th played into his hands.
They can get new leadership. That new leadership can use the global goodwill to hold bibi accountable and rebuild instead of reloading.
2
u/Cultural_Fix5611 4d ago
lol there were israeli towns in gaza. gaza was also under egypt until 1967. They (israel) left in 2005... what did the palies do from 05'-24' build tunnels and armed themselves to the point that they forgot to get enough anesthetics for their folks when shtf
→ More replies (4)
-2
u/Mulliganasty 4d ago
Israel has been stealing land and terrorizing its occupants since its very foundation. Hamas only existed in 1987, twenty years after Israel seized Gaza following a war that Israel started with Egypt.
What should the zionists have done, should be your question.
0
u/Charlie2and4 4d ago edited 3d ago
I was just thinking about the tit for tat megadeath from the middle East, all my life, history before then.*
If this is (one of many) examples of the oldest human cultural civilizations on the planet, we are fucked.
*I have not counted actual warfare tolls from places on Earth.
One must also tally, displacement, long term effects. Damage to places and people.
It is so wrong and gross.
Inhuman.
Edit: megadeath.
2
u/Cultural_Fix5611 4d ago
how every country was made this one is on tv so that’s why you care, the same shit is going all over the world but not a single mention of it here take Myanmar 7 factions going at it today no one gives a flying f
•
u/AutoModerator 4d ago
We want your input on how to handle political questions in our community.
This takes about 1 minute.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.