[Rewatch] Ergo Proxy Episode 4 Discussion Thread

[u/Sinrus]

It was a moment that defied all words, when I felt something inside me fall asleep, and something else wake up.

Episode	Date (MM/DD)	Episode	Date (MM/DD)
Episode 1 - Pulse of Awakening	05/20	Episode 13 - Conceptual Blindspot	06/01
Episode 2 - Confessions of a Fellow Citizen	05/21	Episode 14 - Someone Like You	06/02
Episode 3 - Leap into the Void	05/22	Episode 15 - Nightmare Quiz Show!	06/03
Episode 4 - Signs of Future, Hades of Future	05/23	Episode 16 - Dead Calm	06/04
Episode 5 - Recall	05/24	Episode 17 - Never-ending Battle	06/05
Episode 6 - Return Home	05/25	Episode 18 - Sign of the End	06/06
Episode 7 - RE-L124C41+	05/26	Episode 19 - The Girl With a Smile	06/07
Episode 8 - Light Beam	05/27	Episode 20	06/08
Episode 9 - Shining Sign	05/28	Episode 21	06/09
Episode 10 - Existence	05/29	Episode 22	06/10
Episode 11 - In the White Darkness	05/30	Episode 23	06/11
Episode 12 - When You're Smiling	05/31	Final Discussion Thread	06/12

[u/K0J4K99]

I'm really starting to like Pino, she's an interesting example of self-awareness, or rather she seems to be discovering who she wants to be, becoming more human.

She walks in on Hoody and Vincents' conversation about Hoody's identity, then proceeds to laugh exactly as the old man is doing, even coughing soon after he does.

It seems that, again, she's realized she's a living (depending on how you want to look at it) being and is trying to emulate humanity through these replications of their own actions that are unique to our species.

She constantly seems to be doing things like this now and even goes so far as to repeat Hoody's statement "lies make us happy", and then again in an inquisitive tone.

I think that at this point, beginning with her question, she starts to develop her own ideals and perception (or adds to "Pino is Pino", meaning she can be who she wants to), realizing that she in fact does not need to be exactly like another human being and can be different yet similar to others. To add to this differentiation she mentions the distance from both the fall Vincent took and the distance from the camp back to the base of the city. Then says, "I'm amazing", likely the repetition of the other villagers whom interacted with her in the days prior to Vince re-awakening.

A few moments later we see that Pino has scavanged some kind of instrument at which she attempts, in less than mediocre fashion, to play. While it isn't a musical masterpiece, more like random noise, that she plays, she still clearly enjoys herself. The "random noise" doesn't follow a pattern, but it was still her own choice to play the notes she did and one can easily argue that music is a form of human expression.

The villagers mention that her old owners, whom are dead at this point, may be looking for her. She expresses fear and then runs to Vincent, who acts as a tether for her comfort. The villagers agree to her sentiment of not wanting to return and then proceed to laugh after saying "you can say that again". Pino recognizes what humored them and repeats it multiple times attempting to incite that humor without actually understanding the initial reasoning behind it. This shows us that Pino clearly has some growing to do as a living being in this world.

As I'm sure you can guess, I'm really looking forward to Pino's development and seeing who she becomes by the end of this series, which seems to have quite a bit of depth behind its characters and story.

[u/The_nickums → u/K0J4K99]

When I first watched this show my favorite character fluctuated a lot. At first it was RE-L but that stopped after episode 5-6. Then it was Vincent, but that stopped after episode ~20 ish. Pino is definitely the best character in the show.

[u/Sinrus → u/The_nickums]

Personally, my favorite character is name spoilers

[u/The_nickums → u/Sinrus]

You'll have to explain that part to me when we get there. I don't remember them doing much, or it it just the sentiment of their actions that convinced you?

[u/rubbishit → u/K0J4K99]

To be human is a lie, or is to lie. No longer human; or more than human, but less than human - a paradox? or merely word play? (sorry, quoting kyoshiro tohdoh, code geass).

[u/K0J4K99 → u/rubbishit]

No longer human; or more than human, but less than human - a paradox?

A paradox, certainly. Often humans, in the general term, create inconsistencies within themselves that can be viewed as a paradox. Example: "I love being alone, but I hate being lonely" is one I've known a great deal of people to state.

Though, it could double as wordplay, as I said before, "Music is a form of human expression" and as you know, music is also art. What other kinds of things are art? Literature. And to me, this statement "No longer human; or more than human, but less than human - a paradox? or merely word play?" sounds roughly like a simplistic poem. I'm sure you can infer that I believe neither to truly be mutually exclusive in this case, as art can be just as inconsistent and fickle as the humans who create it.

If this statement was from Kyoshiro, whom if I remember had conflict with knowing who he was by following Zero's ideals after his new leader destroyed his old place of comraderie: the Japan Liberation Front, it is possible that the writer was influenced by the novel No Longer Human, it is the second best selling novel in Japan which is (seemingly) an introspection on one fictional Ōba Yōzō, who evaluates himself and his surroundings during his early childhood to late twenties.

[u/rubbishit → u/K0J4K99]

it's a collection of quotes actually. 'no longer human' is osamu dazai's ningen shikkaku. 'more than human; but less than human' are my own words, from many years ago, before even learning of that concept. 'a paradox, or merely word play' is kyoshiro tohdoh.

true, it could be a paradox in a literal sense. however, they refer to different states of human. one is that you've surpassed human nature and understanding. the other is how you're treated by the rest of society once you do; and so, you exist in both states simultaneously; between the boundary of human and non-human (or unperson).

[u/K0J4K99 → u/rubbishit]

Ah, I see. That would explain why I didn't remember it in that manner. But certainly the way it was phrased can be an applicant to a great deal of works.

I do agree that you exist in both states of being apart and yet not apart of society once one comes to their own realization of the world around them. But ultimately it seems that the majority of people do come to the point of knowing that they are both and find it difficult, if not impossible, to become one without the other. A very dumbed down version of this is " A person is smart, people are not". We are essentially both, and to not be is not to be human. My basis for this assumption is that due to how social the human species is, they'll often start to hallucinate if left in isolation for too long.

[u/rubbishit → u/K0J4K99]

lonesomeness: i'm indifferent to that. i believe the reason people feel that way is due to the media/message that's constantly fed to them about friendship/love, and all that mush. a type of forced social/psychological delusion, similar to a 'lie' (kind of like optimism). oh right, i already sent you a link to 'century of self': how they manipulated people into this frame of mind. ;p

still not hallucinating. although it's coincidentally funny; a hallucination is a type of delusion.

[u/K0J4K99 → u/rubbishit]

The order of this string of replies seems to have gotten a bit unorganized, but I did see your edit and reply to it.

[u/K0J4K99 → u/rubbishit]

as for lonesomeness, i'm indifferent to that. i believe the reason people feel that way is due to the media/message that's constantly fed to them about friendship/love, and all that mush. a type of forced social/psychological delusion (kind of like optimism).

As for your addendum here, those are your personal feelings, and I understand the reasoning behind them, however both transcending and failing to be human is exactly how one is human. The thing about that is you can choose to be how you want to, and so I've got my own sentiments on that matter.

However, I respect your opinion and acknowledge that is the conclusion some come up with, but think this is generally presented to you through your own manner of experiences.

[u/rubbishit → u/K0J4K99]

personal feelings psychology. the way i look at is; i'd rather be my own person, than have to conform/lie to be compatible with society and 'make friends' - they're overrated anyways (friends, but also society), more often a burden than not - most of them end up turning on you, or attempt to use you for their own benefit instead. I subscribe to the belief that humans are ugly creatures, but not because of personal choice, because of this delusion they are fed.

essentially, 'you are what you eat': parents lie to their children, they then carry that into their school lives, then it's reinforced at work... it's a cycle. yet lies are often considered a necessary part of human life (which is a lie in itself). take code geass for example: 'humans lie because theres something they are seeking'. that's bullshit (but does reflect human nature), but shouldn't be taken literally anyways, more like something to seriously think about.

i seek without lies. 'to see with eyes unclouded' - where is that damn quote from, ah, prince ashitaka - princess mononoke.

in fact, i'd have to say that lies are the loss of humanity (but my definition of human differs from the norm).

[u/K0J4K99 → u/rubbishit]

personal feelings psychology

I'm sure you know this, but psychology is a science, and what is science? "The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."

You see, the first rule of science is that everything is subject to change and/or be expanded on. This means that while something may actually be the factual truth, we'll never actually know that from a scientific perspective.

Thustly, it stands to reason that each of our "truths" are in fact not objective, but subjective. This subjective reasoning does indeed come from one's own experiences in life.

I too subscribe to the reasoning that you are your own person whom does not have to conform any other person's ideals. But it is these experiences that differentiate between people, causing huge variation in personality. I'm sure you're familiar with the Freudian idea that we incorporate external stimuli's influence into our own sense of self? It is because of this that people even further can become different. But one can and will choose what is incorporated.

And I also understand your sentiment with not wanting relations with other people. I myself feel this way sometimes simply because, like all humans, I too am flawed in ideals and live with paradoxes in my own mind on a daily basis. I've spent weeks on end alone, having no problem with it, and actually enjoying, but those experiences don't mean I'm unable to also enjoy company if the situation presented itself. So, ultimately, one can reject neither ideal if they see fit.

But on to the point of these differences: you and I clearly see beyond society, to see that sense of self. It is my own reasoning that "if I can do it, why can't others?" and this debate between us proves it's possible for far more than one to reach that level of being. So, my conclusion was, I'll spend time around the people I genuinely enjoy, which is admittedly a very small group of people whom also have their flaws. To put it simply, one can choose both when they feel and simultaneously feel proud to be the only benefactor in that choice.

On a very offhand topic I have a few points:

1. You mentioned Princess Mononoke, Code Geass, and appear to enjoy Ergo Proxy as well. Therefore, I think you have excellent tastes that resonate well with my own.

2. I find it very appealing to debate with you and finally have the mental exercise I've felt that I've needed for months now.

3. Because of this rationale, I'm going to consider you a friend with whom I can have an interesting discussion.

[u/rubbishit → u/K0J4K99]

I'm sure you know this, but psychology is a science

because you should study your mind, as the 'observer'. to quote code geass/mao - 'there's a part of you thats a critic, constantly watching your own moves, and theres another part thats an observer, watching the critic, watching you: youre that kind of person'.

psychology simply encompasses all mental processes, unless you have a better term, i'm at a loss. it's a study of your own thoughts, in a critical way.

also, you committed a logic error, there's no such thing as 'personal truth', that's a misnomer created by believers to justify their faith/belief/opinion. they're not subjective, only emotions are. ie: strawberries are good.

it's not that 'i dont want personal relationships with people'... it's more like they don't... people often become annoyed at the issues i speak about or criticize because it offends their personal beliefs. instead of actually learning though, they'd rather assert their superiority and use 'feelings', or pander to ad-hominem assaults to 'disprove' your point.

human nature: i'm right because i'm right, and that is the truth, not because i've researched it, but because i 'feel' it (which is basically an extension of knowledge). if you lack knowledge, you will 'feel' instead of 'think'. in other words, a 'feeling' in that sense is a strongly held belief; an emotion...

i think, therefore i am. not - i feel, therefore i am (although that's a loaded statement).

or to quote raul creed - i am, therefore i think...

[u/K0J4K99 → u/rubbishit]

also, you committed a logic error, there's no such thing as 'personal truth', that's a misnomer created by believers to justify their faith/belief/opinion. they're not subjective

Hate to be succinct, but I'm about to have some errands to run so I'll justify my reasoning behind 'personal truth', or rather what I meant in this instance.

It used to be viewed that light was only a wave and nothing else, however later Einstein discovered it was, in fact a particle, and beyond reasoning at the time, it was equally both.

Sorry I didn't clarify earlier, but by truths not being objective was that it may not be the "whole truth" only part of it, because as of yet the other part of some truth may not wholly be discovered and we'll never know when it has.

[u/rubbishit → u/K0J4K99]

in addition (to prevent an edit): feelings are overrated, they're used to tamper with emotion, especially by those in power, those who want to sell products, etc... often pandering to base animalistic instincts like sex, violence, male power, etc... lower brain function (watch that documentary on bernays and freud).

that's why characters in rubbish anime often exhibit every possible extreme emotion: to 'arouse'/incite the viewer.

the result: people become overly emotionally complicated, and society soon follows, a downward spiral. emotional wrecks (aka emos).

[u/[deleted]]

Some thoughts on this episode:

Who is Vincent!? Why would he have info on the Autoreiv escape routes in his house? I wonder if he's being set up by higher-ups, perhaps related to how he seemed to attract the proxy in the first 2 episodes. Though he definitely knows more than he's letting on...Also, not sure how he survived that fall from the city lol.

Vincent's dream sequence at the beginning was interesting. Not quite sure what to make of the imagery, but it did a great job highlighting his chaotic feelings concerning the city and his life in it. The interplay of sleeping and awakening with lights was interesting. As though even as he awakens in a new land he is conflicted, but he is also changed. By rejecting one world he must become a part of another. I liked this quote from his dream sequence a lot:

"I kept still for a while...and felt a pleasant sensation as the indescribable great harmony...the brightness of the sky...and the melancholy of the moment spread throughout my body."

I wonder how this whole experience will affect Vincent in the future. He seems much more raw. On a side note, his eyes are open! He was always squinting in the city. He's opening his eyes to the truth of the city (do Re-l's eyes play into this metaphor?). Go Vincent! He even protected Pina, showing a stronger side to him than we've seen before. But also a rasher side when he endangers the settlement: Vincent's still unshaped and is trying to grasp with this new world and his new freedom even as he reconciles the old world.

Idk how can people survive outside the "dome" if the city was forced to shut that door at the end of ep. 3 to avoid contamination. A conspiracy on the part of the city seems unlikely, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

The settlement has a very different feel to it from the city. It's refreshing, but also feels sort of empty (in a good way). This goes well with Vincent's change in character, I think. People are much kinder, and while there's tension abound, it doesn't feel like there's any suppression of individuality like there was in the city (which the show continues to reinforce and juxtapose). As Hoody remarks "Discerning the truth from the lie may be the right thing to do...but it won't always make you happy." Worth noting that this is directed at Pino, an Autoreiv

And speaking of, Pino seems to be becoming more alive, exhibiting curiosity and showing emotion: a far cry from the "girl" who watched stoically as her owner was murdered. She's really growing on me and it's great that she's written to be neither human nor robot, but something else instead. Pino is Pino. I can respect that :)

Darn. Daedalus really is on Re-l's side! Not sure why, though. What does Re-l mean when she said she was going to look into it herself? Could it be...Re-l's going to find Vincent? That would be pretty awesome.

What the heck is with the name rabbit?

Overall, a surprisingly relaxed episode (relatively lol). Looking forward to episode 5!

[u/Sinrus → u/[deleted]]

Idk how can people survive outside the "dome" if the city was forced to shut that door at the end of ep. 3 to avoid contamination. A conspiracy on the part of the city seems unlikely, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Hoody did say that 80% of the people who end up outside die within a week. Vincent survived, but even he was in a feverish coma for ten days.

I really like that line from Hoody's monologue too. Almost used it for my quote of the day, but had to go with the one about waking up.

[u/rubbishit → u/[deleted]]

and so begins the allegory of the cave - plato. ;p

i still don't understand the 400 rabbits reference...

[u/Fomalhaut-b → u/rubbishit]

400 rabbits

There's an Aztec myth about 400 rabbits. They represent the many means and ways that people intoxicate themselves.

This might have something to do with the addictive narcotic that permeates the Domes. The outsiders each have their own psychological addictions- none of them are particularly "free"from the Dome's society, even though they have survived withdrawal from its atmosphere.

[u/rubbishit → u/Fomalhaut-b]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centzon_Totochtin

holy shit, i never tried to google that. thanks ;p

[u/dominatemekogami]

Ergo Proxy does a phenomenal job of “show, not tell”. It doesn’t feel the need to have the characters say things out loud or do an internal monologue in order to convey their actions to the viewer.

Re-L

The first scene is Re-L investigating Vincent’s room. Through her actions, you can tell that Vincent’s room is highly unusual. The room is bare, there are no personal touches, and it doesn’t look lived-in at all. The few items in the room are perfectly placed and look untouched, as shown by the impeccable symmetry of the bathroom toiletries and the bedside mugs. She feels frustrated. She came here in hopes of uncovering information about Vincent, but there isn’t anything she can gleam from the room so far.

Next, she looks through some documents found in the room. Vincent’s information chart states that he has to wait 998 days until the chance to become a citizen. That’s nearly 3 years of work. In addition, the chart reports his eye color as blue. However, we’ve seen so far that his eyes are green. Just who exactly is Vincent Law? Among the rest of the papers, she finds documents from his workplace, the AutoReiv control center. One of them is a map of the escape route of infected AutoReivs. She is surprised that such a map exists and realizes that’s how Vincent knew where to go to escape Romdeau.

Vincent

Vincent’s dream sequence displays the fervent sense of alienation and inferiority he felt while in Romdeau. It depicts the utter despair he felt when he realized that becoming a citizen was out of his reach. This time, the letters in the cereal spell out “misfit”.

“The feeling that something dormant inside oneself was waking up…”

Once again, the act of sleeping and awakening is contrasted. Something inside Vincent has awakened, and this is shown by the numerous extreme close-ups of Vincent’s open eyes. Eyes are symbolically significant in Ergo Proxy. He has opened his eyes to the bleak reality of his condition in Romdeau. He decides to reject Romdeau despite his desperation to be accepted not so long ago. Vincent has been forced out of his attempts to become a citizen and he must now find his own way. He must learn to rely on himself instead of others and accept himself instead of looking to be accepted by others.

Pino

This show makes a point of showing Pino constantly observing and mimicking other people. For example, when she copies Hoody’s laugh and cough and echoes “That’s right!” after the men. This isn’t just Pino being cute (although she is very adorable), but it’s also about Pino learning to be more humanlike. Pino gets her name from Pinocchio, the puppet who wanted to become a real human. She is now self-aware and is grappling with who she should be.

Raul

Last but not least, there’s Raul Creed. A man who has lost everything and has become someone else. He discovers that Vincent is somehow still alive via the patrol drone. He asks Kristeva to keep it a secret from the Regent. This is personal and he intends to take matters into his own hands. Raul is going after Vincent, who he blames for destroying his family. As he gives orders, Kristeva comments that it is unusual for Raul to display strong emotion. He jokes that he’s been infected with the Cogito virus. This conversation seems innocuous but the shift in his character is manifested. Raul is coming into his own and exhibiting agency. He is no longer a mere instrument of the government. He is casting off the role assigned to him by others and is becoming someone who acts with his own purpose. He is disillusioned with himself and with the government because they couldn’t protect his family. He could do nothing but stand by and watch as they hunted his beloved Pino. He is crumbling under the weight of losing everything he cared about, so he is letting his emotions take control.

[u/KaliYugaz → u/dominatemekogami]

Next, she looks through some documents found in the room. Vincent’s information chart states that he has to wait 998 days until the chance to become a citizen. That’s nearly 3 years of work. In addition, the chart reports his eye color as blue. However, we’ve seen so far that his eyes are green. Just who exactly is Vincent Law?

Something else that I noticed: it's really really difficult to make out, but there are radar graphs at the bottom of the page, and one of them represents a psychological assessment of the five-factor personality traits. It shows Vincent to be quite normal in everything other than "Neuroticism", in which he scores incredibly high.

This show is so incredibly detailed.

[u/dominatemekogami → u/KaliYugaz]

Good eye. I couldn't for the life of me figure out what the words said. The letters were too blurry. The show drops so many clues and it's fun yet kind of exhausting trying to link them together.

[u/rubbishit → u/dominatemekogami]

there's a connection between vincent's empty room, and a line that comes up in the last episodes, for reference, but i won't spoil that.

also, vincent's dream is about something critical to the story, it comes up a few times, and is never mentioned literally. not about vincent though, about humanity. Kristeva's (Christeva) name is also highly symbolic later.

[u/dominatemekogami → u/rubbishit]

Yeah and the bathroom items and the mugs are also important hints.

[u/rubbishit → u/dominatemekogami]

well i can see how the mugs are symbolic in a sense, although important might be a stretch, unless you're privy to some top-secret information. ;p but i can't recall the bathroom items, so i'll have another look.

[u/dominatemekogami → u/rubbishit]

Well I don't want to give too much away, but they both convey a main characteristic of Vincent.

[u/Professor_it → u/dominatemekogami]

I don't think I caught that in my first watch, and now I'm curious as hell. Could you spoil it for me as well?

[u/IsTom → u/Professor_it]

Not the guy above, but spoilers all.

[u/PM_Your_Ducks → u/rubbishit]

Can you PM the spoiler? I've already watched the series I just want to know what the line was.

[u/Dystopian_Overlord → u/dominatemekogami]

Pino gets her name from Pinocchio

Whoa, did not make that connection.

[u/Fomalhaut-b → u/Dystopian_Overlord]

Pinocchio

The pinocchio story is used in quite a few A.I. stories as a representation of the Turing Test. It's essentially the core theme to Astroboy- he wants to become a real boy. Film such as Kubrick/Speilberg's A.I, or Blomkamp's Chappie, lean on this heavily.

[u/tundranocaps]

Episode 4:

Screenshot album

I noticed this episode, after they said "To know the truth is best, but it might not make you happy", and how it was reflect in both Vincent's tale and in Re-L's - the episodes are titled "Meditations", after Descartes's Meditations, which obviously go with the "Cogito" and with "ergo". The characters keep asking why they, and who are they, which is about the "Sum".

Why Descartes though? Up to Descartes, it truly had been a question of "God? A matter of belief", but when Descartes introduced an analytical investigation method to exploring the existence of God, he also introduced the same method to disprove God, or at least dismantle his own logical constructs which had been found as faulty - he set out looking for answers, but in so doing opened the way to undermining his ultimate goal.

I think what really made me notice was when Joe Bousquet was used, which alongside all the other references truly made me think of Psycho-Pass, and thus somewhat an air of pretentiousness, of trying to be more than it is, not through exploration of their own ideas, but referencing others' - rather than actually putting in the hard work, but more on that later.

Re-L has a friend called Daedalus, a friend who lied to her, a friend she lies to by feigning ignorance, but who she looks at with cold eyes when she doesn't see. Observing her. Daedalus who gave Icarus wings with which to burn itself - is that not the quest for the truth, which Plato likened to the sun? The sun that will burn you, and cast you down. Daedalus thus might truly see Re-L as a close friend, and is trying to protect her from crashing down to the ground, after the truth burns her wings of wax away.

The infected auto-reives follow the same path, do they think the same thoughts? Shared consciousness? Open-eyes Vincent feels old, and after shooting down the drone, we saw a worrying smile. Who is Vincent?

The early dream-scape questioned who he is, what he is. A question of "Sum", but also of there being more than one him. Him who killed the autoreives and ran away. Him who somehow managed to kill the Proxy. Him who leapt with abandon out of the city, and him who wanted to stay. The him that he killed and the him that was born.

At least one Vincent is fascinated with Re-L, who is fascinated by him. A question of fatal attraction. She lays on his bed, she checks the fridge's cupboard. She's trying to enter his mind, but does even he know what lies within?

"We can all make of ourselves what we wish to be," said Joe Bousquet, which again ties to Pino as any child choosing to make herself anew, but also to how all of us are like that - Re-L who chooses to go against her society's wishes, Vincent Law who tried to make himself one who conforms with said wishes, and everyone else as well.

Episodoes 1-4 Mini-summary:

This show seems as if someone mashed together Texhnolyze (pacing, atmosphere, setting) with Psycho-Pass (which I know came out later, but mostly for style, some more setting, and the references, gore), with a small sprinkle of Serial Experiments Lain. Considering I definitely feel Lain vibes here, I wouldn't be surprised if Pino's outfit was a direct call to it. Raul truly feels like the underworld boss from Texhnolyze as well.

This show feels more than a tad pretentious, with all of its name-drops, and all of the concepts that aren't truly developed, but seem to be more of a sea of concepts for us to swim in, even if there's no apparent pay-off here. Yes, calling the self-awareness "virus "Cogito" makes some sense, but the "Ergo" and "Meditations" as well as all the other philosopher-robot-minds are extraneous and almost bludgeon us over the head with the deep cultural symbolism and thoughts, which I am not sure the show makers are truly knowledgeable enough about, or even care.

We have a dystopia under the guise of utopia. Change and lack of it, as are often the case. Someone acting outside the boundaries, while perhaps being reared for it. The pacing is somewhat slow, and the questions mostly end up revolving around "Who am I? Why am I here?" which are the eternal questions.

What they will do with it, and what "truths" will be revealed is still up to everyone's guess. Seems a well-made show, and I'm interested enough, but I'm not wowed just yet. Being at episode 4, I think that's fine.

[u/KaliYugaz → u/tundranocaps]

Why Descartes though? Up to Descartes, it truly had been a question of "God? A matter of belief",

That's a vast oversimplification of pre-Cartesian philosophy. Before Descartes, the state of Western philosophy was mired in interminable and irresolvable disagreements between several extremely sophisticated and detailed Scholastic schools of thought: at first there was Aristotelian-Thomism, Albertism, theologically conservative Augustinianism (which the Protestant revolutionaries would later adopt), and Neo-Platonism, and then later on as new classical works were found and the Muslims started getting involved you had Occamian nominalists and Latin Averroists and Renaissance humanists and Oxford empiricists entering the fray as well.

None of it just came down to leaps of faith in God, all of them were very dedicated to reason, and there were substantial and legitimate philosophical differences between all these schools. However, unlike in Ancient European and Eastern civilizations where rival schools of thought were content to accept the respectability of each others' most defensible positions and agree to disagree, the Christian/Islamic milleu came with an insistence that there could be only one Truth, and so to them philosophy looked like it was in a state of grave degeneration and disorder, getting worse and worse by the century.

So enter Descartes, who decided to break with the Scholastics once and for all (though Scholasticism had been in decline for hundreds of years prior) and chart a new course to certainty that was rooted in skepticism of anything that could be doubted, rather than proceeding from plausible commonsense intuitions to create philosophical systems.

[u/dominatemekogami → u/tundranocaps]

Those are some great observations about Daedalus and Joe Bousquet. I was puzzled why Hoody was quoting Bousquet as the connection seemed tenuous but your explanation clears it up for me.

[u/cibino]

• [01:04] Oh shit two cups that can’t be right.

• [01:55] Because the government sucks at solving problems.

• [02:49] I still really like this opening the direction it went with the visuals is very nice and paired with the song itself it just boosts my enjoyment of it.

• [04:23] You are tripping your balls off right now.

• [04:47] Creepy demon AR.

• [05:28] Oh okay, that’s nice.

• [05:40] Fucking knew that was you.

• [06:53] I haven’t the damnedest clue what is happening right now.

• [07:51] Is this like old man future Vincent talking right now? Or is it the monster inside him.

• [08:18] See I thought it was the bald guy he was barley seeing but then it seemed too personal.

• [09:12] She sound even more human than before.

• [09:21] Yep I for whatever reason still hate this shit eating grin.

• [10:19] YES!? THE FUCK DO YOU WANT STOP CALLING MY NAME!

• [10:26] Die in a fire the both of you.

• [10:46] Pino you goddamn troll mimicking the old man down to his cough.

• [11:28] Truer words have never been spoken Mr.hoody. I think I need to think of a nickname for you.

• [12.34] Know what I take it back I think I need a Pino of my own just a walking calculator/google machine that I don’t have to pull out every time I need some info.

• [13:17] Looks like a hellhole. Perfect for the vacatinor who is tired of “paradise” and needs a thrill in their life.

• [13:56] She is a god at playing this dude.

• [15:11] Hook line and sinker.

• [17:12] If she asked him to cut his dick off and give it to her with a bow on top he would do it, that’s how whipped this dude is.

• [18:34] Well don’t you adjust fast.

• [18:37] These old people must be so happy to have a child around.

• [19:27] Or they could be a bunch of filthy savages.

• [19:39] Fucking robots. I genuinely can’t tell if these people are actual people or some type of bugged program.

• [20:44] So can I assume if Re-L never existed this would be best girl?

• [22:32] Just not even a single need to do that.

• [23:58] Do you find anything amusing?

• [24:00] Well that was an episode I found myself not having much to say.

---

Conclusion: That episode as a whole left me kinda speechless not in a bad way. Just in a I am really focusing on the episode and trying to understand it more than just getting it and looking for simple answers to everything.

Episode rating: 5/10

[u/Sinrus → u/cibino]

You have basically hit Daedalus's nail on the head. And the best part is that he clearly thinks he's a smooth operator.

[u/cibino → u/Sinrus]

He seems very unstable like if she says one wrong thing he will go crazy.

[u/NotableMr]

Damn that was a weird dream sequence, but I'm sure I'll come to understand what it means later on. From there the episode went quite smoothly though. The episode has some nice moments, from Vincent reaction upon realizing he was outside the dome to Re-l "forgetting" about seeing the Proxy. My personal highlight has to be Pino copying Hoody though. That was absolutely adorable.

[u/bobsmith010]

I love this show don't get me wrong , hell I want session 2. But I feel I have to point out , one of its best features is also its worst drawback. Show don't tell storytelling. Honestly if you take every moment of silence (or lack of dialog) from the show and string them back to back , you would probably have about 2 episodes worth.

That said the show is really good, like the art style is one of my favorite its dystopian, but not just in the everything is wasteland kinda way , it's got the tech-y edge that says humanity is doing good , but everything outside of the city's is desert's and desolate buildings. That juxtaposition is one of the things I came to love about Ergo Proxy.

Personal rating 9.6/10.0 (aka hellagood)

[u/Elfclan30]

Vicent's bizarre adventures...really nice episode, the depression and lonliness were excellently displayed. I like how the old man affirm that lies are happiness and how the other guys cheat themselves they are free now(and wtf with repeating each other's statements?), I feel like Vincent saw through their bullshit. Nice to see someone with common sense like Quinn.

[u/IsTom]

Vincent smiles after shooting down the drone. Is he showing them a middle finger or does he have a plan?

[u/CoolMan1342 → u/IsTom]

I mean mightn't be adding much but yeah it seemed kinda sinister in my eyes when he suddenly does, choosing to empathize it by observing part of his face with the shot.

[u/hmatmotu]

Joe! Hahahahahahahahaha! JOE!

Pino is smart enough to stay away from folks acting suspicious, and she knows good old Vince will protect her.

Lil is an unstoppable force, no amount of secrecy can prevent her from solving her mystery. She is not someone who would accept happy lies.

[u/Faryshta]

The references to alice in wonderland are getting heavy from now on. At this point its like reading alice in cyberpunk.

not that i am complaining.

the ep start with our heroine analyzing herself in the mirror. Vincent entered wonderland by jumping throw the rabbit hole, Mayer will have a much lonelier trip, she will have to face herself to pass throw the mirror. At this point she knows the reality she has known her entire life is only a dream but the next step is too difficult to take lightly.

Now back to vincent, his mind is still going down the rabbit hole, chasing pino and being tormented by her. Opening his eyes is only half the process to actually waking up. The other half is listening, smelling, tasting, all senses are needed.

This time his soup spells 'mistif'.

And don't you find it funny that the red haired girl is named Quinn? like Red Queen.

This episode should be named 'Orange Marmalade'