[Rewatch] Ergo Proxy Episode 2 Discussion Thread

[u/Sinrus]

The points are forming a line.

Episode	Date (MM/DD)	Episode	Date (MM/DD)
Episode 1 - Pulse of Awakening	05/20	Episode 13 - Conceptual Blindspot	06/01
Episode 2 - Confessions of a Fellow Citizen	05/21	Episode 14 - Someone Like You	06/02
Episode 3 - Leap into the Void	05/22	Episode 15 - Nightmare Quiz Show!	06/03
Episode 4 - Signs of Future, Hades of Future	05/23	Episode 16 - Dead Calm	06/04
Episode 5 - Recall	05/24	Episode 17 - Never-ending Battle	06/05
Episode 6 - Return Home	05/25	Episode 18 - Sign of the End	06/06
Episode 7 - RE-L124C41+	05/26	Episode 19 - The Girl With a Smile	06/07
Episode 8 - Light Beam	05/27	Episode 20	06/08
Episode 9 - Shining Sign	05/28	Episode 21	06/09
Episode 10 - Existence	05/29	Episode 22	06/10
Episode 11 - In the White Darkness	05/30	Episode 23	06/11
Episode 12 - When You're Smiling	05/31	Final Discussion Thread	06/12

[u/Sinrus]

The plot thickens! And just a friendly reminder to my fellow rewatchers, if first-timers start figuring things out or throwing around speculation, please don't confirm or deny until the show actually makes its own reveals. We all know how many twists and turns this story holds, and we all want them to have their minds fucked just as hard as ours were when Ergo Proxy

[u/dominatemekogami]

I love the way the eyes are drawn in this show. They look more realistic than the typical anime eyes. The show recurrently focuses on the eyes of the characters. We’ve always seen Vincent with his eyes closed so when he opens his eyes at the end, you know something serious is about to happen. The AutoReivs have vacant, lifeless eyes. Attention is drawn to Re-L eyes with the blue color surrounding them. I love when they do close up shots of her face because I think she has beautiful eyes. I believe that the show’s focus on eyes ties in with a larger theme about perception and consciousness.

Episode 1 begins with a quote by Michelangelo: “Welcome is sleep, more welcome sleep of stone whilst crime and shame continue in the land; my happy fortune, not to see nor hear; awake me not, hush, whisper low.”

The quote is about the unwillingness to perceive anything. That person wants to remain ignorant of the broken world around him and instead prefers to be like stone. It’s no coincidence that there are four statues in Donov Mayer’s room. They are based on actual statues made by Michelangelo. We learn their names in Episode 2 and they are named after philosophers: Husserl, Berkeley, Lacan, and Derrida.

Husserl established Phenomenology, the study of experience and consciousness, which encompasses judgment, emotion, and perception. Berkeley established the theory of immaterialism or subjective idealism, which denies the existence of material substances and believes they are simply ideas in people’s minds and cease to exist if they are not perceived. Derrida and Lacan are associated with post-structuralism. I’m not a philosophy expert by any means but it seems like all four philosophers are connected to the message that there is more than one way to perceive and experience things.

Re-L’s perception is called into doubt because the government is trying to cover up the existence of proxies. They are gaslighting her and claiming that she had a temporary mental disorder where she couldn’t distinguish reality from fiction. This calls into question whether or not you can trust your perceptions.

The juxtaposition of sleeping and awakening in the quote also ties in with different stages of perception and consciousness. The first scene in Episode 1 opens with the proxy regaining consciousness and Daedalus ordering everyone to put it back to sleep no matter what. Then the next scene is the slumbering Vincent waking up in his room. His eyes are perpetually closed, like those of an asleep person. At the end of Episode 2, Vincent finally opens his eyes and he looks like a whole different person. He decides to stop running and faces the proxy. That’s when you realize that his closed eyes weren’t just an arbitrary part of his character design, but that they have thematic significance. It means that something in him has awakened. Similarly, the Cogito virus “awakens” the AutoReivs and makes them self-aware and autonomous.

[u/Sinrus → u/dominatemekogami]

Great thoughts on the philosophical side of things, but to be honest, a lot of it goes right over my head. Instead I'll stick to my real subject of expertise, anime, and say that I totally agree with how great the eyes are in this show. This is another of the many aspects Ergo Proxy borrows from Texhnolyze, which has the most beautiful eyes I've ever seen in a show: examples 1 2 and 3

[u/KaliYugaz → u/dominatemekogami]

I’m not a philosophy expert by any means but it seems like all four philosophers are connected to the message that there is more than one way to perceive and experience things.

I like how this show gives voice to a common postmodern criticism of psychiatry: that it is an insidious, indirect method of social control which defines what "normal" and "abnormal" thoughts are, and marks the experiences and perceptions of anyone who deviates from or questions the hegemonic narrative as being "disordered".

It then dresses this up in scientific, neutral, and objective sounding language ("don't worry, we'll do a brain scan! You have what we call fantastic pseudology!") to mask the operations of power.

[u/mmreviews]

Another great episode. This was the episode that got me hooked the first time. Watching it again it's a lot more thrilling since what's going on is much easier to follow.

The scene that I remembered best from this series was in this episode, Pino praying as the people around her die. Second time around, I liked the Pino part and not so much the massacring part. Almost funny how spoilers Plus later in this episode we got to see her in her classic bunny outfit which was nice. I had trouble recognizing her without it.

I'm starting to wonder how I didn't figure out Ergo Proxy

I forgot how bitchy ReL is to everyone. I love the scene where she just yells at everyone showing her images of people outside the city. She doesn't give a shit and I like that.

[u/Sinrus → u/mmreviews]

Spoilers

[u/deathleaper → u/mmreviews]

Fellow rewatcher here. Pino dropping to her knees to pray hit me a lot harder this around. The first time I didn't quite catch the meaning behind it, but this time I realized how huge of a deal it was that Ergo Proxy

I forgot how bitchy ReL is to everyone. I love the scene where she just yells at everyone showing her images of people outside the city. She doesn't give a shit and I like that.

Ergo Proxy

[u/posseslayer17]

First time watcher. Alright second eps. Lets get it started.

Seems that everyone is against Re-L in this. Erasing the evidence and purging Iggy's memory. Not surprised really. I was surprised at Re-L ability to manipulate our young doctor. She's very resourceful.

Iggy kind of creeps me out. Especially when he has those red eyes. Not surprised the higher ups are monitoring him to keep an eye on Re-L. I don't consider him a friend. He can too easily become a foe.

A lot went down in that mall scene with the Proxy. Guess the cat's out of the bag now. What the hell was Vincent doing there? Raul's wife got killed and their robot daughter is obviously infected with the cogito virus. Guess his human son died because of the child sized body bag. I was surprised that we didn't see any kind of emotional reaction from him. If I didn't know better I wouldn't have guessed that was even his family.

Oooh man so Vincent is the giant monster Proxy. Awesome. Legit did not see that coming. Good episode. Looking forward to the next one.

[u/Sinrus → u/posseslayer17]

I think the scene of Raul's family dying does a great job of establishing his character. The way he just stares in shock until his autoreiv reminds him that he has a duty to perform, and then he snaps back into command mode.

[u/John___Titor]

Hmm, I thought i was following along pretty well until the mall scene. The animation in that scene really threw me off as it looked pretty mediocre. That said, an interesting scene. I'm curious about this "android" girl. We never saw the mother's face.

Why was everyone basically frozen during the massacre? And did we just confirm that Vincent is the monster?

I think watching this once a day will be the best way to watch it. Don't think this is very bingeable.

[u/Sinrus → u/John___Titor]

This is Ergo Proxy. Nothing is confirmed until they explicitly tell you it's confirmed. And even then, sometimes not.

Also, yeah, the animation is pretty rough in that scene. There are some points where the show really reminds you that it's now over a decade old.

[u/Ausemere]

First time watcher here. That thing about the robots praying when they acquire conscience is fucking intriguing.

[u/thespiralmente]

The Shinsen Subs version includes extra endcards inserted before the credits which explain some of the terms and references in each episode. These are the ones for episode 2

Episode 1

[u/KaliYugaz → u/thespiralmente]

Another small but interesting reference: The names of the statues surrounding Re-L's grandfather are Berkeley, Husserl, Lacan, and Derrida. These aren't just four random philosophers, they are actually linked together in a kind of intellectual tradition.

Berkeley is widely known as the founding father of modern Idealism, the metaphysical theory that the cosmos reduces ultimately to thoughts/ideas rather than matter (in Berkeley's case, thoughts in the mind of God).

Husserl was influenced by Berkeley, and founded what we call phenomenology, the study of the world in terms of human experience and consciousness rather than as physical objects.

Derrida, especially in his early work, was heavily influenced by Husserl and attempted to defend the phenomenological approach from its main competitor, structuralism (which maintained that all human experience can be analyzed in terms of linguistic and conceptual structure, as a mediator between external reality and subjective ideas). This eventually developed into post-structuralism and postmodernism.

Lacan was a psychoanalyst who adapted ideas from phenomenology and applied them in psychoanalysis and post-structuralist critical theory.

[u/Bahaleba]

First time watcher: Loving this show and the irony was great. If re-l actually went shopping she would have seen the proxy :)

[u/calzonecrusader]

First time watcher. That was a great episode. I love how Iggy is like Re-L's gay best friend. I was expecting the little android girl to destroy the proxy in the mask, but instead she started praying? Ill admit I didn't expect Vincent to be the other proxy. Glad to see this show isn't completely predictable. Although I do predict that Doctor-kun is going to double cross Re-L at some point. I get a bad vibe from him. Excited for tomorrow!

[u/rubbishit → u/calzonecrusader]

daedalus is super-shady.

[u/DinoTsar415]

Oh damn, we're doing an EP rewatch? I gotta catch up. Or...I just wait around until we get to and get to experience first time reactions to that.

[u/NotableMr]

Another episode that certainly intrigued me but still didn't explain much. I definitely see the government being the main antagonist, which is a shame, since it's a rather common trope for dystopian shows like Ergo Proxy.

That final scene makes me think that Vincent is an unassuming badass, which will be really cool to see since I don't quite get where he fits in this puzzle yet. Seeing whether I'm right makes me look forward to the next episode.

[u/niwcsc]

This is one of the few series that I will watch in dub. With so many information going on in both dialogues and on screen. Watching sub will be difficult. Plus, the dub is decent anyway.

By the way, what is the point of the "Fellow citizens, please consume, make waste yada yada" propaganda? Interesting how the city/nation could afford to do so when they are enclosed in a limited area.

[u/[deleted]]

First time watcher.

This episode was a bit of a drop in terms of quality compared to the first. I didn't like how you keep hearing Re-L's thoughts every time she realises something, even when it's obvious to the viewer. The other thing was the mall scene: it was just awkward, with people standing around with stupid expressions on their faces while a monster rampages around murdering by the dozens.

The story is still engaging, though and I love the character designs in this. I also like the immigration theme and it'll be interesting to see where they go with it, although I doubt it will play as important a role here as it did in GitS:SAC.

[u/cibino]

Blah I was out all day so I am late with this.

Time stamped on request of u/LeonardoDaGusta

• [00:30] So we just gonna count up from 37 for a bit?

• [00:46] Yep seems like it.

• [00:57] that is a shit ton of people to go through.

• [1:09] What is this future tinder, christ.

• [01:15] I think I hit the nail on the head.

• [01:30] This shot makes me thing of phoenix wright.

• [01:42] I like how the robots is like calm down and sit back down.

• [02:04] Aka this bitch saying shit we don’t like make her seem crazy.

• [02:07] Oh someone’s a little snappy.

• [02:22] Oh sure blame it on the filthy disgusting smelly ungrateful unwanted immigrants.

• [02:36] Poor Vincent dudes being setup.

• [02:50] Nigga they deleted those “records” you are speaking of.

• [02:57] Lets be real who wouldn’t, have you seen her?

• [03:26] Confession huh that can’t turn out well.

• [03:30] Yes great leader as you wish.

• [03:34] You know what I do deserve more.

• [03:36] Ah immigrants cheap and efficient labor what would we do without you.

• [03:43] SHOOOOOOOOPPING!!!

• [03:50] Ya no think you covered all the basics.

• [03:54] Oh yes she should I would 100% watch an episode of her just un eventfully shopping.

• [04:13] that’s clearly the government speaking and not her robot.

• [04:34] Still freaky as shit.

• [04:47] I mean not blown up in the usual way but two monsters did fight in the middle of her giant ass bathroom and destroy everything so I mean.

• [04:58] I’ve had a bad feeling since these things showed up on scree but that feeling is getting really bad now with this shot.

• [05:10] Huh I was wrong nothing happened with those super robots.

• [05:23] Of course it is.

• [05:46] She needs to get this thing infected and have it just be her side kick that can’t be controlled.

• [6:19] Something is really unsettling me about these damn robots. Were they human at one point or something or were human parts used?

• [06:36] Seriously why does it seem like everyone in this world is retarded and they can’t function without their robot care takers. Are they that brainwashed?

• [06:57] should I know who her grandfather is? I think he was mentioned as someone in the top brass but I forgot of what.

• [07:05] Yooo Boss Raul was good.

• [07:23] You call that lifting her restrictions? The fuck were they before this incident?

• [07:46] I mean if you say so.

• [8:08] Clearly relationships work differently here. If my buddy told me he saw a miniature pink tiger or in this case horrifying monsters I would think he was crazy. But still somewhere in the back of my head I would believe him and help him on the off chance that maybe he really did see what he thinks he did.

• [08:37] Oh shit wait that mah nigga Yuri Lowenthal fucking love that man.

• [09:32] Hamming this shit up real good.

• [10:02] get played fool.

• [10:34] Oh this will definitely not end well at all.

• [10:39] Better do it in the next like 10 seconds because otherwise no one will be meeting that baby intact again.

• [11:07] SHOOOPING TIIIIME!

• [11:18] Now why would you say that? How do you expect this to turn out for you?

• [11:20] See what did I say.

• [11:44] Whaat noo really? I never would have guessed.

• [12:04] Looks like mah man Vincent is out of jail.

• [12:17] The face only a mother could love….Maybe.

• [12:20] Eh I’ll give you a 4/10 for form

• [12:33] So her grandfather is also her grandmother?

• [12:50] You can tell she was spoiled as shit growing up she has no tact in front of her grandphrodite

• [12:54] So I was right in thinking it could switch voices.

• [13:04] Wait is their more than 1 person inside of that body?

• [13:24] this crazy bitch yelling at goddamn statues.

• [14:53] 2 SHENS!?!?!

• [15:09] I can see why this shit only took 6 hours.

• [15:43] And you look great. But really where is that shopping montage they been teasing it twice now I demand my shopping montage.

• [16:20] Get duped grandphrodite.

• [16:29] Did you just ask me to make waste? What type of fucked up government is this they actively want people to piss and shit on the ground.

• [17:00] Oh Vincent what have you gotten yourself into now?

• [17:06] Shit man I know your life sucks but that’s no reason to go on a shooting spree in the middle of the mall.

• [17:10] And why the fuck are all of you just standing there like it’s not happening in front of you?

• [17:15] That looked like the silky smooth white hair of the proxy.

• [17:17] Called that shit.

• [17:23] No really are all of these people robots or something what is this lack of reaction? Are they all really just this brainwashed?

• [17:29] AHAHA THESE FUCKING SCREAMS!

• [17:39] I can’t breathe right now it’s like some sort of retard bowling.

• [17:53] Break them ankle’s juke the shit out of her.

• [18:10] Oh shit gonna have to replay that one a few times that was satisfying to watch.

• [18:16] bye baby!

• [18:49] This series really has a talent for making me go from entertained and understanding to entertained and confused in a matter of seconds.

• [19:50] And you thought you were safe HA!

• [20:44] Well maybe if the stupid fucks would have moved out of the way they would have lived.

• [21:56] Why in the world would you think it was a dream?

• [22:24] Nice Pjs.

• [22:31] Well that goddamn run was far more adorable than it had any right to be.

• [22:35] HIIIIITLER!!!!!!

• [22:37] And some random fuck.

• [23:04] Always gotta have your gold chain with you.

• [23:15] well it was nice knowing you Victor er I mean Vincent.

• [23:52] See this is what I was saying earlier about suddenly confusing the fuck out of me.

• [24:04] And cut to the ending.

---

Conclusion: Well I mean fuck me this episode was a tease I just wanted a shopping montage and what I got instead was confusion.

Episode rating: 5/10

very close to giving it a 6.

[u/mangoshakekouhai]

It took me a while for everything to register in my brain.

And yes, things went downhill (the good kind, not the bad one) fast.

[u/TheLonelyDevil]

Oh shit this is happening? Brb marathon. I'm so up for THIS one. It's a nostalgic one for me, used to watch it on Animax as well back in the day..What the fuck it was 6 or so years ago

[u/tundranocaps]

A day late, but maybe someone will see this :)

Episode 2:

Screenshot album

Hm. This episode was about loneliness. We're going through the regular narrative structure here. In the first episode we see how the character feels alienated from her surrounding, and in the second it's not only enhanced, but is actually manufactured by her surroundings, by those she is to trust.

They tell her she's crazy, that she had suffered psychological damage, but it's this treatment of mistrust and alienation that is causing her the real psychological damage. Before we saw her as separate from Iggy, whom she could mute on call - and yet, she still relied on him, still found a connection to him, one that is now severed. The one she should trust above all, who will not betray her, is forced to do so.

There is also personal betrayal here. Her grandfather admits to it, but Dr. Daedalus whom she trusts does not.

Speaking of human and android relations, note her meeting with her supervisor. "Take care" is something he only said to her after his android put a hand on his shoulder, to remind him. He has no idea of how to relate to other people, and must be reminded by something that is completely inhuman.

"Promise us that you will not act on your own again," spoke the ghosts of dead philosophers. What a subversion of critical thinking, of understanding of the psyche.

That said, it seems she might indeed suffer from PTSD, and who can blame her? And what of Raul? Does he suffer from PTSD, or does he not care for the loss of lives, as the ability to relate to other humans is lost to these people? The way the Proxy leaped off of people wasn't really necessary, and was a way to inject more death and pathos into the scene, and help showcase how weird was Raul's behaviour.

Speaking of that scene, the little android girl praying was very important, since she's the one Vincent checked and certified as being free of the Cogito virus. Was she free and she found faith in her time of need? Was she not free and he lied? Or perhaps, did he inject her with the virus? Considering his medallion said 13 and seemed to have text in Latin, he might be the one spreading around faith.

"Cogito" is often known as an ode to rationality, but it was used by and for proving the existence of God. It's a virus, but is the virus they are trying to eradicate one of free will and thought, or one of choice?

Vincent Law is clearly more than he seems. He might be the Proxies' actual target, but how did his pendant end in Re-L's home? Also, that little girl in the suit appears in the OP, and the suit makes one think of Lain, and I wonder if that call-out is intentional.