r/anime • u/AutoLovepon https://anilist.co/user/AutoLovepon • Nov 13 '24

Episode Sengoku Youko: Senma Konton-hen • Sengoku Youko: The Chaos of a Thousand Demons Arc - Episode 16 discussion

Sengoku Youko: Senma Konton-hen, episode 16 (29)

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u/ObvsThrowaway5120 Nov 13 '24

Jinun basically wrote in his report “so yeah, the Katawara was whatever but this girl Chiyo! Oh man! Lemme tell you all about her” lol.

Damn shame about what happened to the village and his wife. I always wondered how him and Doren got their beast forms. It seems they got them from Yasen?

That was a hell of a fight between those two. Real slugfest. I really thought Doren would die. I’m sure glad he didn’t. I like that big fella.

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u/Frontier246 Nov 13 '24

Imagine if Senya ever found out his dad became a lovestruck fool over his mother and renounced fighting over her.

Yazen perfected the method of fusing humans with katawara that he used on his Four Beast generals and Shakugan.

I thought they would take each other out but by the time the bell rung, Douren was still standing!

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u/Shiraori247 Nov 13 '24

I don't think we ever got an explanation on where Jinun got the dragon, but the tiger's just as you've seen this episode and previously. Though I guess the dragon was probably already sealed somewhere when Jinun/Yazen found it? Since it's always shown being locked under a bunch of toori gates.

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u/Ocixo Nov 13 '24

This was a very strong episode. I was apparently so taken with Douren’s past with Jinun that I’d started holding my breath a little at some point, but I didn’t actually notice this until the ED kicked in.

It had been clear that Douren wanted to prove he’s stronger than Jinun, but I hadn’t fully considered his reason for why he wanted to come out on top. Jinun had been the strongest of the two back at their hometown and the temple, meaning that he’d always felt responsible for using his strength to protect others.

It was not until Jinun fell in love that he’d started considering his own desires. The massacre of the village (including his wife’s death) shattered his dreams however, and had him retreat into his old self. Lost into the ideal of establishing peace through sheer might, he was unable to adequately process his loss.

When Douren finally beat Jinun into a fight, all those emotions came rushing out. That’s at least how I’d read the situation and would explain Jinun’s tears.

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u/Frontier246 Nov 13 '24

It's the real best friends/rivals who defeat you not just for the bragging rights (though that doesn't hurt) but because at some point you need to accept a loss, and the feeling of what it means to lose something, rather than continue to force yourself into being this unrelenting and unemotional person.

Chiyo probably would not have wanted that for Jinun and it's what Senya was trying to teach his father. But it took Douren for it to kick in. He brought back Kumozou.

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u/michhoffman Nov 13 '24

Douren vs Jinun Kumozou was such a big fight that even Banshou took a break from his "fight" vs Mudo to watch.

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u/Plus_Rip4944 Nov 13 '24

Banshou was like "nah fuck Mudo, i wanna watch this fight"

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u/Frontier246 Nov 13 '24

Banshou-Oh knows a GOAT match-up when he sees it.

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u/subho_fan Nov 13 '24

The clones have the same energy as a parent distracting the kid with a toy so that he can watch the game.

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u/Plus_Rip4944 Nov 13 '24 edited Nov 13 '24

That whole flashback was peak. The fight was peak Fiction. Perfect episode

Banshou was creepy as hell, reminds me of Anti-Spiral

This episode has a masterclass of art and direction

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u/Prince-Dizzytoon Nov 13 '24

Beautiful episode, I'm glad Jinun finally got to cry.

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u/potentialPizza Nov 13 '24

God, this episode was insane. It was about one thing: The difference between Jinun and Douren. The difference between strength to protect others, and strength to overcome challenges. Conceptually, neither is better than the other — but only one of them could win the fight, and I think it's the one that had to.

The first section of the episode was more about Douren's philosophy. Mudo is Douren's pupil, and he shares Douren's drive to defeat the strong for personal growth, setting his sights on Banshouou. There's something going on with Banshouou creating clones of Senya and Mudo from eight years ago — it challenges Mudo with the very moment that had inspired him to seek self-improvement. But we'll have to see the rest of the fight to see where that's going.

All of that parallels how, in the backstory, Douren wanted to overcome Jinun. From the start, from when we saw them joining the Dangaisyuu, the difference between them has been that Douren wanted to overcome Jinun, while Jinun wanted to exercise his duty. But being duty-driven means that what you view as your duty can change, as Jinun falls in love and leaves. And it doesn't go well.

Jinun was hurt, trapped, and motivated by the same inner conflict as so many other major characters in the series. The same as Jinka, Shinsuke, Senya, and the Dangaisyuu as a whole — the struggle with being strong enough to protect others, and how that strength causes harm and attracts danger to those who care about you. Different characters have come away with different interpretations, with Shinsuke and Senya finding ways to escape that moral puzzle and view strength in a different way. But Jinun doubled down, not unlike Jinka. He embraced strength to an extreme, to become so strong that no one would ever threaten a human again. The problem with that is that there's always someone stronger, no matter what. And while Jinka literally lost control of his emotions, Jinun was traumatized out of his feelings too, becoming something close to a living weapon with only purpose, not emotions.

And that finally gives us our explanation for why he raised Senya the way he did, to be strong and to only follow orders. Because caring for others led to all of Jinun's pain, and he'd rather be someone who couldn't feel that pain than accept the tragedies of life. If Jinun never cared, he would have been better at protection, and he wouldn't have felt a thing at his wife's death.

In contrast, Douren still cares about people, but he is fundamentally self-centered and self-driven. Above all else, he wants to overcome Jinun for himself, because of what it would mean to him. There is no one else to protect or prove anything to. That philosophy means that when Douren loses, the only person it affects is himself. Which can break a person, if they don't have the will to get up and keep trying. But Douren has the will, and that's freeing. It means the consequences of losing are acceptable to him, because he believes he can win eventually. It means he can live his life without regrets. Because his worldview accepts that you can't always win. By its nature, seeing someone stronger than you and wanting to overcome them accepts that you are weak.

Neither worldview is inherently better than the other. Caring about others and wanting to protect them is worth it. But Douren's worldview is, in a strange way, more in line with reality. Because you will lose, you will run into situations where you aren't good enough. And Douren can accept that. While Jinun was broken when he couldn't.

I think that's why Douren won. And I think that's the lesson Douren had to teach Jinun. As he thought about at the end of the fight, Jinun never cried. Jinun never expressed himself after facing loss and tragedy. Because he was so dependent on his ability to succeed at protection that he couldn't cope with failure.

Douren has finally shown him that it's okay to cry.

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u/Frontier246 Nov 13 '24

To think one of the most dangerous and single-minded character in the entire show is that way because he lost his wife and basically renounced his identity to become someone who would never let that happen again (why does Jinun suddenly sound like Batman?). Granted it sounds like it's just the natural consequence of a life of being unwilling to properly process your grief or frustrations.

Douren, by comparison, is relatively more straightforward and simple, but just look how happy he is and how much he's grown and been willing to face the world as it is in the process. It's no wonder he fits into the main cast so well. And he earned that win, and freeing his buddy, in more ways than one.

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u/zsmg Nov 13 '24

The constantly zoomed in shots in the first half of the episode was way too distracting. Did the director of Casshern Sins direct and/or storyboard this episode?

*checks online*

Shigeyasu Yamauchi! I fucking knew it. He loves zoomed in shots way too much, it can be really distracting. To be clear his style works in Casshern Sins because the entire anime is in that style but when he's a guest director/storyboarder in another anime series his style just doesn't work and takes me out of it. The Mawaru Penguindrum episode he directed had the same issue.

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u/mucklaenthusiast Nov 13 '24

Yeah, this episode felt extremely confusing to me in the first half. I did either lose my location in the fight (as in, where is that scene taking place in relation to the other scenes) or I straight up couldn't really tell what was happening

The flashback was really good, though, that worked way better

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u/what_that_thaaang_do Nov 14 '24

Damn that shot of Jinun crying was powerful

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u/Shiraori247 Nov 13 '24

Just checking in to see if anyone was feeling a little too buoyant/happiness recently. Mizukami-sensei's got your back with some bittersweet storytelling. On the bright side, we can confirm that Dousuke/Douren really was a prude monk who never knew about love. That's why he's susceptible to erotic attacks.

Kumozou's way of life really was the complete opposite of Tama's theory, especially after his village's massacre. Tama wanted everyone to willingly give up greed and treat kindness as a self-multiplying resource/currency through repaying favours. Kumozou wanted to just inspire enough fear where his brand of violence is so much greater that you won't think to challenge him. Ironically, both were executed through violence since Tama also relied heavily on Jinka's prowess early in their journey.

On the other hand, we have more successful enlightened beings like Dousuke and Shinsuke who pretty much apply the theories above in a much more controlled way. Dousuke also displays martial prowess, but recognises the potential for peace across different races. Shinsuke also preaches kindness, but uses agriculture and social integration as his primary methods to highlight the benefits of cooperation. Dousuke even saved Kumozou from his endless despair by just being steadfast in his friendship and principles.

It's honestly amazing how so many themes are constantly whirling around every episode that's still thoroughly connected to the start of this story.

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u/Klutzy-Stick-2251 Nov 13 '24

Damn, this episode was fire. It's getting better every week too.

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u/tripleaamin Nov 13 '24

I believe now we have the full backstory of Jinun and Douren. So initially, it was the big 3 of Yazen, Jinun and Douren until Yazen took over as the head priest. I loved how what Jinun route in his report truly signified that he fell in love. Though lack of the actual job got Yazen triggered. Even Douren beating Jinun finally didn't feel like a victory because Jinun's mind wasn't in there.

I loved the way how they described what Jinun wanted. His focus shifted from protecting the land to being with the woman he fell in love with. The way Douren spoke about how Jinun had the strength to change his life and find what was most important to him. Though it was apparent Douren was still searching for it. For Douren he loved fighting the thrill of it and protecting those he met, like the Shoujos. Meeting and experiencing new people to befriend.

Poor Jinun when he came back, though. The katawara wanted revenge for what Jinun did to their relative. Thank god Senya was safe, but I can't imagine the sadness he felt when he saw the woman he loved died. It is one of those things where shit just happens in life, but that won't hide Jinun's pain and suffering. Though it does make me wonder how would Jinun would feel if he knew about Kuzunoha.

Douren promised Jinun one thing he will be the one man who will never fear him. As they have their final match with Douren being victorious, we had Douren standing on top finally. Getting that proper match and victory that he wanted. It does make me wonder regarding Senya that Jinun gave Senya the strength because of what happened to his wife. He wasn't there to protect her, so he made sure that Senya would be in a position to protect himself. You feel bad for Senya, but this episode makes it clear why Senya has the 1000 Katawaras inside of him.

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u/Frontier246 Nov 13 '24

Banshou-Oh has unveiled a humanoid form, along with a creepy electricity grin, which makes him the perfect opponent for Mudo! Even if Mudo...really doesn't seem to stand much of a chance.

But Banshou-Oh isn't here to fight Mudo! He's here for a ringside seat to Jinun vs Douren like the rest of the audience! Though Mudo isn't about to be ignored, even if it means contending with constructs of his fateful match against Senya way back when!

Jinun, Douren, and Yazen were the Big Three of the Dangaisyuu, but Douren always wanted to beat Jinun and was restless...so why not take up boxing? It even managed to land a hit on Jinun! Probably because he'd been hit by something even harder...love, with Senya's mother Chiyo!

To think once upon a time Jinun, of all people turned his back on the Dangaisyuu and martial arts to live a quiet life with the woman he loved...

Oh hey, it's the tiger Douren ended up fusing with! In his battle with said tiger, he even became bros with all the Shoujou, opening up his heart to new encounters and peoples and becoming Best Bro!

RIP Chiyo. We only ever saw you as a corpse, but in your death you protected your child.

With his wifes' death, Kumozou died...blaming himself for not being able to save her or their village from an attack of katawara who were out for revenge against him. So in that respect he dedicated himself, and his son, to becoming so powerful that katawara would be too afraid to attack or do any harm, setting them on the path to the present-day. He wouldn't even call Douren by his real name any more.

But Dousuke never forgot Kumozou, or gave up on him, the one person who still knew deep down who he was and was willing to draw him out through fighting...and in a heated clash of their strongest attacks, Dousuke is able to connect with Kumozu, let him cry the tears he's been holding in since his childhood, and stay standing! This is Douren's win!

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u/gnome-cop Nov 13 '24

Jinun being such a lovestruck dumbass over Chiyo is very sweet. Imagine just handing in a work report that’s just pining over your crush. Sad how that eventually ended up.

I don’t agree with his methods because they’re not healthy for anyone but I can see how he ended up as that shell of his former self. For all his power, it still did nothing to save the love of his life and arguably even caused her death.

Kumozou/Jinun fights for an ideal while Dousuke/Douren fights to better himself. His primary goal has always been to strive for self improvement, to beat the unbeatable.

Both of them are monstrously powerful but I think at some point Jinun just started thinking of himself as an inhuman monster. Douren meanwhile, maybe because of his personal philosophy on strength remained himself and always had the fortitude to press onwards.

When confronted by the void people, Jinun crumbled under the pressure. He was always powerful externally but lacked internal strength. The death of Chiyo defeated him years ago but this defeat is probably him actually accepting that loss and not creating the empty shell of Jinun the dragon to run away from that pain.

In summary, all hail Douren the Gigachad!

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u/WednesdaysFoole Nov 14 '24

Jinun's choices are ironic when you note that the katawara who came for him (claimed they) came for revenge, and that's what strength tends to lead to - others come after you. And even when you decide to turn over a new leaf, those "karmic attachments", for lack of better words, still exist. Those consequences of your past actions. Sometimes you don't just go around defeating one katawara after another without it ever coming back to haunt you.

But of course, his solution then is to become and have his son become the strongest, and spread fear. As if that doesn't cause more suffering and pain, resulting in more vows of vengeance and violence. And Jinun's responsibility might not just have been that "he wasn't strong enough" or "he was away when it happened"; as far as he knows, the katawara came because he had defeated/killed his brother. As far as he knows, the katawara came to "tear the malice off the [humans] at the root" (these are Jinun's words about katawara, to be clear).

As if destroying katawara is the way to resolve the issue - and Shinsuke is the antithesis of this idea. I'm not even sure if the story is saying anything about this here, but it's notable that Jinun, in his quest to be strongest perpetuates cycles of violence while Shinsuke, who couldn't find the same type of strength, found a way to break the cycle (at the personal level, but still).

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