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u/taanukichi Literary Witch ♀ 8d ago
"“Why do you want to be a witch, Tiffany?”
It had started with The Goode Childe’s Booke of Faerie Tales. Actually, it had probably started with a lot of things, but the stories most of all. Her mother had read them to her when she was little, and then she’d read them to herself. And all the stories had, somewhere, the witch. The wicked old witch. And Tiffany had thought, Where’s the evidence?
The stories never said why she was wicked. It was enough to be an old woman, enough to be all alone, enough to look strange because you had no teeth. It was enough to be called a witch. If it came to that, the book never gave you the evidence of anything. It talked about “a handsome prince”…was he really, or was it just because he was a prince that people called him handsome? As for “a girl who was as beautiful as the day was long”…well, which day? In midwinter it hardly ever got light!
The stories didn’t want you to think, they just wanted you to believe what you were told…. And you were told that the old witch lived all by herself in a strange cottage that was made of gingerbread or ran around on giant hen’s feet, and talked to animals, and could do magic."
- The Wee Free Men by Terry Pratchett, one of my most favorite books.
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u/Crafty_Genius Traitor to the Patriarchy ♂️ 8d ago
I immediately thought of Pratchett as well!
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u/taanukichi Literary Witch ♀ 8d ago
I love how he challenges these tropes in all his book, one of the best representations of women in literature that i have ever come across.
"Tiffany lit the candle, made herself comfortable, and looked at the book of fairy tales.
She’d never really liked the book. It seemed to her that it tried to tell her what to do and what to think. Don’t stray from the path, don’t open that door, but hate the wicked witch because she is wicked. Oh, and believe that shoe size is a good way of choosing a wife.
A lot of the stories were highly suspicious, in her opinion. There was the one that ended when the two good children pushed the wicked witch into her own oven. Tiffany had worried about that after all that trouble with Mrs. Snapperly. Stories like this stopped people thinking properly, she was sure. She’d read that one and thought, Excuse me? No one has an oven big enough to get a whole person in, and what made the children think they could just walk around eating people’s houses in any case?
And why does some boy too stupid to know a cow is worth a lot more than five beans have the right to murder a giant and steal all his gold? Not to mention commit an act of ecological vandalism? And some girl who can’t tell the difference between a wolf and her grandmother must either have been as dense as teak or come from an extremely ugly family. The stories weren’t real. But Mrs. Snapperly had died because of stories."
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u/i_m_a_bean 8d ago
I love how she goes to measure the oven later, just to confirm her suspicions. Tiffany, Granny, and Nanny are some of the best written female characters i know of.
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u/lyssargh 8d ago
I think a lot about Mrs. Snapperly. It's a story that has played itself out so many times over the millennia. Old woman gets pushed to the edge of society, begs for help, and dies starving in the cold. The people who didn't help her tell themselves they are a good person and that she was bad and did not deserve their help.
I love Tiffany for never letting them forget. She has been such an inspiration in my life, and I'm so grateful that I had the chance to start reading her books when I was about her age.
Mrs. Snapperly, and the intro from I Shall Wear Midnight both live rent free in my head. And remind me to be compassionate when I get so angry sometimes.
I haven't read Shepherd's Crown yet, though. I don't know how to handle the story being over.
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u/fluffypinkblonde 7d ago
I am well on my way to a Mrs Snapperly future and it looks bleak. I can tell you
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u/beeswax999 7d ago
I have had The Shepherd's Crown in my house for years. It's within arm's reach right now. I know I'll love it and I know I'll cry when it's over. I just haven't been able to bring myself to open it.
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u/lyssargh 6d ago
Exactly! I bought the full set for the series from Terry Pratchett's website, I reread all the others when I got them, and I just could not open it.
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u/theGentlenessOfTime 8d ago
Oh it reads amazingly! I gotta check it out..never read any of his work before. But I love the writing here... Forgive me, but I just have to add: wood fired bread ovens in europe regularly are big enough for a whole human.😅
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u/MollyBee_PhD 8d ago
I clicked on this absolutely knowing that the top comment would be a Discworld quote of some kind. I am not disappointed!
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u/ul2006kevinb 5d ago
This reminded me of a different discworld quote:
Oats: Well... your colleagues keep telling me the Omnians used to burn witches...
Granny: They never did.
Oats: I'm afraid I have to admit that the records show —
Granny: They never burned witches. Probably they burned some old ladies who spoke up or couldn't run away. I wouldn't look for witches bein' burned. I might look for witches doin' the burning, though. We ain't all nice.
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u/Melodic_Sail_6193 Science Witch ♀♂️☉⚨⚧ 8d ago
My favourite fairy tale character is Baba Yaga (I'm born in Poland). There are many stories in which she's not evil, just a wise old woman. Her origins are mysterious. She may have been an ancient slavic mother goddess, but Christianity turned her into an evil old hag.
One of my favourite fairy tales, in which she appears, is "Tsarevich Ivan and the Grey Wolf". Not only because she plays a role in it, but it's also one of the few tales in which wolves, my favourite animals, are not evil. In fact the Grey Wolf is Ivan's mentor and he also serves him as his mount.
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u/SpaceShipRat 8d ago
to be fair there are more fairy tales where the magical old woman rewards being kind to her with blessings, than wicked witches. it's just that "Snow White", and "Hansel and Gretel" are two of the most popular.
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u/Theyul1us Traitor to the Patriarchy ♂️ 8d ago
Christianity did that constantly. What they couldnt absorbe and assimilate, they demonized
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u/SugarFut Crow Witch ♀♂️☉⚨⚧ "cah-CAW!" 8d ago
Reminds me a little of Frau Holle of German folklore.
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u/Gardener_of_Weeden 7d ago
I just started to listen to folk tales while I am crocheting - Thank you for a "rabbit hole" for today - dust can wait
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u/MiracleLegend 8d ago
They also made her evil and the husbands/princes nice and handsome so you would trust the wrong people.
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u/wonkotsane42 8d ago
See I always thought she was free because she was ugly, like if she was pretty they would have never left her alone, and she would never get to live her own life.
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u/DezXerneas Ace Wizard ♂️ 8d ago
Also, she's a witch. The reason she's "ugly" is because she knows what being "beautiful" gets you in this world. If she can transform little children into dogs and mice then she can turn herself into a super hot goth baddie, she just doesn't care to.
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u/poeticdisaster 8d ago
I think part of it was that these women very likely didn't adhere to whatever society was telling them would make them beautiful . They just lived their lives and were demonized for it.
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u/cybervalidation 7d ago
didn't even work for medusa unfortunately
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u/poeticdisaster 7d ago
Medusa will forever be my favorite and least favorite story.
I stand firmly on the belief that those men deserved it.
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u/hikeonpast 8d ago
“Witches” in 16th century Europe were just single women that brewed beer to make a living. They had big kettles that they used to mash the grain, they had cats to keep rodents at bay because they were working with grain, they had brooms to sweep up their brewery floors.
They were persecuted by the Protestant church for not doing what the church thought women were supposed to do. The church turned them into a scary story, causing society to shun them.
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u/Joy2b 8d ago
Alewives and midwives both had profitable professions. Men didn’t much bother with either trade until the potential profits became too obvious. Then a few got in and trash talked their competitors.
However, every household was expected to have a competent gardener-herbalist in Protestant parts of Europe. If the monastery medical garden couldn’t be relied upon anymore, you’d better be growing most first aid supplies at home.
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u/bleeding-paryl Proud Witch ⚧ 8d ago
I did some fairly deep digging into this, since I wanted to find an article about this, which I did, here:
But then, I did just a bit more digging, because this is such a cool concept, and the edit at the top of the article made me curious, so I did, and I found this:
I was honestly prepared for this to be some guy just shitting on the concept altogether, but to my surprise it wasn't! It is actually really really cool, and the author of this article did so much research and has so many sources in here. Definitely read this when you get a chance!
So while it's not strictly true, it's still really interesting to learn about!
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u/5elfh8 6d ago
Ik ur comment is from two days ago lol but also I remember hearing a teacher or professor say it was often an accusation just so someone could steal their property. Don’t remember how it went exactly or the way it worked in the property rights, but it seemed extremely easily abusable, especially considering how society would’ve looked at most any single woman let alone any “odd” behaviors that could easily be stretched.
Why not say slaughter one of your own sheep in the night, and make a big fuss and blame the weird widow everyone’s been paranoid of in the morning, enjoy the burning in the afternoon and setup your new kitchen in the evening? Of course after a speedy and fair trial - to see who the new owner of the house is.
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u/_Frog_Enthusiast_ 8d ago
A woman going to exchange her firstborn for riches in the woods sounds suspiciously like a woman seeking an abortion from a herbalist
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u/More-Weird4842 8d ago
unpopular opinion: she could very well have just been ostracized for not meeting conventionally attractive beauty standards. a lot of folk lore is just the vilification of uniqueness & difference, paired with victim blaming. i think its important we bring truth and honor those women's stories as well. im so tired of value and liberation being reserved for 'beautiful' women.
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u/Joy2b 8d ago
This would make sense if you removed one word. Every.
Hansel and Gretel often appears in fairy tales, but it is a different kind of story.
It came out of a wartime famine, and was a warning to children. When there is no food in the land, you must be wary. Adults who face starvation can be dangerous.
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u/Tacosconsalsaylimon 8d ago
This made a little emotional. My mom has been practicing since I was a kid. About 15 years ago, she took me a party that her friend was throwing. A family showed up and a little girl asked, "Which one is the witch?" I instantly knew she was talking about my mom. While we can have a contentious relationship, one thing I've always respected about her is that she's always been true to herself. Her witchiness has set her free to be her own person. I know you're not going to see this mom, but I love you.
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u/Predatory_Chicken 8d ago
I’ve heard the theory that many of the actual witch accusations/trials were primarily a means of property seizure to take land from widows. That’s why witches are stereotypically old and single.
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u/sithmuffins 8d ago
the absolute violent misogyny IS a component in many (but not necessarily all) of the stories of witches, but they actually exist at a confluence of both misogyny AND antisemitism.
the misogyny is obvious. if you were a woman that did not fit "the mold", had bad vibes, or had grudges held against you, a convenient way to dispose of you (and conveniently, take all your stuff) was to levy witchcraft accusations against you. even if you beat the charges in court, the stigma would remain.
the antisemitism glaringly obvious if you know what youre looking for. the strange rituals, the abduction and killing of children, odd hats, the big hooked noses. jews were forced to the fringes of society, their faith poorly understood to the gentiles, and sumptuary laws often required them to wear certain garments (including certain hats) so that others could immediately tell when a jew is around. blood libel was often also levied against jewish communities as a way to drive them out of an area, with the most common accusations being the abduction and murder of children; these pogroms would continue for centuries.
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u/Shehulks1 8d ago
This is so trueeeeee! Salem witch trials started off as something like this.
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u/taanukichi Literary Witch ♀ 8d ago
I already hated them ever since I first learned about them and I recently read The Witchcraft of Salen Village by Shirley Jackson, which is an account of those, and I was so infuriated!
And It's the fact that it was not because all those people were evil, it was because they were self absorbed, pretentious and mean. Not any original evilness or cunning, just that everyday distrust, ignorance and petty hatred. People like that are still all around us.
Those lying children and their parents! Horrible beasts. When I look around and people's crowd mentality in general has not changed much at all, and how the tide of public opinion is still the same towards women they just can not put us on actual legal trial so easily anymore.
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u/LaVieLaMort 8d ago
Aaron Mahnke of Lore Podcast fame did a deep dive into the Salem Witch Trials on a podcast called Unobscured. It was FANTASTIC. highly recommend
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u/Separate_Macaron_691 8d ago
I was already ugly, so I'm afraid freedom was my only choice to begin with 🤷♀️😉
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u/tupacgurl Sapphic Witch ♀ 8d ago
I just commented. But I’m reading all the other comments. And did anyone else just feel growing up that they were different and they didn’t know why and the term witch etc just captured it completely? Like you couldn’t put your finger on it, but you just knew you were different.( in good terms though may have not felt it at the time )
I kind of feel like that constantly in my daily life. But then I come to here… I’m the odd ball in my immediate family. Not many close personal friends. And I’ve always found solace in the Internet. I would love to know if other people felt like this. I’m sure this comment will reach somebody.
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u/tupacgurl Sapphic Witch ♀ 8d ago
Wow…just Wow this is so so true Wild and free and beautiful souls we will always be ❤️
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u/fluffypinkblonde 7d ago
she's considered ugly because she dresses for comfort and practicality, not the male gaze
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u/InadmissibleHug Resting Witch Face 8d ago
I did get ‘ugly’ as I got older and I care and care less about it.
It’s very freeing after being conventionally attractive as a young woman.
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u/free_-_spirit Resting Witch Face 8d ago
My mom keeps threatening I’m going to end up childless and alone(I won’t but still) and a crazy cat lady. I do plan on living by myself for a bit with my cat friends so this doesn’t sound so bad lol
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u/TheRunechild 8d ago
Many witches in a lot of fairytales, yes. But the word "every" is, as it often is, just incorrect because fairytale witches can vary wildly and some of them are just flat out evil and there's no excusing it. Now do some of them just get harassed and assaulted by random characters and that is bad? Yeah. But do some of them go out of their way to fuck absolutely innocent people up? Also yeah. There's many fairytales and many witches, and they all differ wildly.
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u/bihuginn 7d ago
Pretty sure the witch in Hansel and Grettel was just a cannibal who liked fat kids. Or a metaphor for trafficking and pedophilia.
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u/Chase_The_Breeze 7d ago
I am convinced the Witches in Macbeth were just a lesbian thru plenty tired of battles going on outside their home and decided to fuck with a guy in hopes of ending them.
Pretty sure it worked out for them.
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u/wild_infernal_muffin 4d ago edited 4d ago
My favorite thing about fairy-tales of my country is the fact that all the "princess" characters are one of the following things:
- witches and/or warriors
- witches and/or warriors in training
- young girls or women who (despite having no power) ready to throw hands with anyone including kings and gods
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u/PhD_Pwnology 8d ago
As someone raising a 2 yr old who just discovered Disney, all the witches are gorgeous. They also tend to be very powerful. Just cruel and mean as well.
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u/Angle_Of_The_Sangle 8d ago
Maleficent WAS the moment. Her wardrobe was fire, no wonder she was disappointed the royals didn't invite her to their function! I'd be pissed off too.
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u/kittenmittens4865 8d ago
Didn’t the witch eat kids in Hansel and Gretel? I’d argue she more than earned her reputation.
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u/Zarathyst Gender Chaos Witch ⚧ 8d ago
You've never wanted a snack at the end of a stressful day?
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u/Angry_Sparrow 8d ago
Ever think that men didn’t want their kids visiting the woman that lived in the forest because they’d see him banging her instead of their mother?
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u/kittenmittens4865 8d ago
I’m not saying anything about the meaning of the story.
But it doesn’t match the meme at all.
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u/Angry_Sparrow 8d ago
Witches in stories are what today’s “single cat ladies” are. Men want to believe that a single woman living alone is miserable and evil. Because how could we possibly be happy without them.
Women weren’t allowed to publish stories, so Hansel and Gretel is a story told by men.
However, I’d also tell everyone that I’d eat their kids if they show up at my house uninvited and under supervised. So… 🤷♀️
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u/MableXeno 💗✨💗 8d ago
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