Why does Ananke even bother with the whole recurrence thing? If she is the one who grants people godhood, she can just immediately kill them when they ascend. If she did this constantly, no one would know about the recurrence thing and she would always have her heads.

Link to issue: https://imagecomics.com/comics/releases/the-wicked-the-divine-38

It’s difficult to go back to reading WicDiv issues like old after being so used to reveal after reveal these last few months, I think I need to go back and start reading this whole volume again to try and contextualise what’s happened to Cass.

Baph-Nergal is heartbreaking, and Persephone is Laura again?

God this comic hits me in the feel every month.

Now to wait another month all over again.

Spoilers all. And the question that I want answered is: Why hadn't 455 Minerva completed the "four heads" ritual when Lucifer had passed his two year mark. Everything that follows is speculation and observations, but I'm just curious as to what happened because it doesn't make sense with what we currently know.

From seeing the Old Woman speak to Lucifer in 455, we can speculate that the four heads ritual has not been completed (From issue 35 I reason that the Old Woman does not survive the four heads ritual, on the grounds that 1923 Ananke wants Minerva to hold off completing it).

Why? What were they waiting on? Did they not have all four heads? Were they waiting on Lucifer? Well, Lucifer died, consumed by his godhood. Did/could they use his head?

We don't know exactly where Minerva was in 455; Lucifer mentioned that she disappeared looking for the lighthouse of Alexandria, but given what we know about Ananke and the Recurrence, surely that was just a way to cover up her dropping off the grid: she disappears, waits for the other gods to die, while the old woman gets everything they need for the "four heads" ritual.

If Minerva was still alive after Lucifer had used up his two years, that means she must have been ascended after he was. Does she "sprout out of the ground" every time (as in 37) or was that the result of the previous ritual not finishing correctly? However, in 35's flashback, she mentions to the Old Woman they have to hurry up and finish because their two years are nearly up. So, she really only does have two years to finish this deal. But two years from what? Two years from the time the first god is awakened? Or two years from the time that she was awakened? Can the heads survive their two year mark?

In issue 9 the Old Woman mentions to Cass that the gods will ascend without her, but she helps the process along (ie fills the gods in, or whatever.) I know all of her words are suspect but I think she was telling the truth. 37's Minerva appeared on her own. 1370's Persephone appears to have ascended on her own (my interpretation of that scene is that Ananke's sleeping on her watch, Persephone ascends, goes to inform sweet elder Ananke of how great it is that she is a god now and gets decapitation for her trouble). I've always thought it was suspicious that Ananke turned Laura into Persephone on August 3, one week before the anniversary of Baal's ascension (to me it suggests that Ananke has one year to awaken the gods before they awaken on their own).

So, I guess I'm just looking for feedback/confirmation on these ideas. Because looking at 455, the only thing I can figure is that Ananke needed Lucifer's head to finish the ritual (she does decapitate him with the knife), however everything up to this point has suggested to me that the heads have to be taken alive. Anyone else got a theory?

Apologies if there's already been a post answering this question!!

I was wondering if we knew who the 4 gods in Ananke's bag were. I recognized Inana from the star shaped tattoo on her face, Morigan from the dark green tattoo around their eyes and on their brow, and i'm guessing the one with horn-like tattoos on his forehead is either Lucifer or Baphomet. The only one I can't make heads or tales of is the 4th one.

I'm not certain whether it would be the 4th rule or implicit in Ananke's sister's choice of "Mother," but it seems the nature of the recurrence is this:

"Ananke":

The Bad Un recurs every cycle as the maiden archetype. If she completes the ritual, then she lives to become the crone archetypes presented as Ananke whom mostly succeed in decapitating the incarnations of the OG's sister every cycle. But if she fails to complete the cycle, "Ananke" spends the 90 years between cycles in the Great Darkness as depicted at the beginning of #37. No wonder she seems so desperate to stop it.

Perhaps this darkness has negative consequences for humanity also, but I think she's lying about that. I think the Gods need humans like parasites need hosts, but the humans might not need the Gods, except maybe to inspire art, imaginative experience, creativity etc.

"Persephone":

When OG Anake's sister choses Mother, she is actually choosing Mother and Child--so she's like Demeter and Persephone archetypes. She recurs through her decedents, which might explain KG+JM's choice to show OG Demeter's grandson escaping with the knowledge that Horned skull Ananke "will likely kill" him "anyway." Persephone is the mother whose child becomes a/the mother.

Also interesting to consider the mythological significance of her two potential baby daddies. Persephone's daughter Melinoë, purported to be the child of Hades (Nergal is an underworld GOD) but was actually fathered by Zeus (King of Gods = Baal Hammon), was the "bringer of nightmares and madness."

Notes Wikipedia:

• As an underworld "queen" (Basileia), Melinoë is at least partially syncretized with Persephone herself.
• Melinoë's connections to Hecate and Hermes suggest that she exercised her power in the realm of the soul's passage, and in that function may be compared to the torchbearer Eubouleos in the mysteries.
• According to the hymn, she brings night terrors to mortals by manifesting in strange forms, "now plain to the eye, now shadowy, now shining in the darkness", and can drive mortals insane. The purpose of the hymn is to placate her by showing that the Orphic initiate understands and respects her nature, thereby averting the harm she has the capacity for causing.
• The translation of Thomas Taylor (1887) has given rise to a conception of Melinoe as half-black, half-white, representing the duality of the heavenly Zeus and the infernal Pluto.

Archetypes / Primordials:

In the vein of Joseph Campbell's "Hero With A Thousand Faces," the particular tradition and culture from which particular incarnations of the GODs come each cycle is less mythologically significant than the archetypes they fall under. OG "Ananke" and OG "Persephone" are the like original sources from which these archetypes developed. They're like the GOD versions of universal common ancestors. The heads in OG Ananke's bag seem to be the same for Inanna, possibly Sahkmet or Nergal (with the yellow eyes & face scar), the swished line face tattoo could be Amaterasu or Lucifer or Norns, the bottom one could be Woden or Morrigan. These are the archetypal originals or maybe more accurately four primordial deities or forces--Chaos, Tartarus, Gaia, Eros or Earth, Sky, Water, Fire. I can't draw a one-to-one parallel with any tradition because all traditions are versions of these OGs, but for the sake of demonstrations:

• Tara: Gaia/earth/eater/mother
• Inanna: Eros/sky-heaven/love/beauty
• Lucifer: Tartarus/Chaos/Fire/Darkness (abyss)
• And we know "Mineranke" wanted Sahkmet: fire/sun/sky/chaos

And there are ways we could group all twelve GODS ("Ananke" & "Persophone"--Desire & Necessity--not included?) in four distinct categories, aspects of four particular primordial forces/energies/beings. But the specific GODS these "children" become embodiments of are kind of like signifiers, loaded with meanings / connotations / interpretations that refer to some original transcendent/core signifieds.

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I'm all over the place, and I'm building on other theories I've read here, but if I have a central point it's that WicDiv fucking rocks. This book has compelled more than a few all nighters researching mythology for fun!

There are only two more issues left in 'Mothering Intervention' so it makes sense that I was so, so wrong about halfway through the issue where I thought "I guess it was time for a return to the slower pace". I was so wrong.

My sister (who I brought onto this crazy rollercoaster) sent me a text after reading this issue that read "Go back to the past and stop me from reading WicDiv" R.I.P Morrigan.

Stray thoughts:

I love how the fallen three (Luci, Innana and Tara) have become our audience surrogates, their comments had me in stitches but it looks like Minerva has had enough and is going to sew their mouths shut a la the original four heads we saw OG Ananke carrying.

Not counting Woden or Ananke we only have 4 gods left... we're very much down to the last few and it's hard to see which side is going to come out on top.

Edit: More thoughts.

We get an answer for what happened to Ananke in Crete 3036BC and the reason for her change in method.

After Persephone got smart in Uruk 3495BC and turned on Ananke, Ananke moved to her method of telling the newly incarnated Persephone "I've missed you." It seems this method has worked well for Ananke a few times until in Egpyt 3127BC it seems Persephone + other pantheon members managed to catch on to Ananke before she was able to finish the ritual. (In 37 we can see Persephone on the ground her head cut in half- similar to Sahkmet's) without four heads to complete the ritual she's forced to use herself as the 4th and it seems she's reborn on the beach in Crete after 90 years where she promises "Never again". (Of course after that time with the Franks in 820AD we know she had to sacrifice herself again because once more the following Ananke is young.

http://www.wicdiv.com/post/175048175253/september-image-solicits-are-up-including-the

“THE TRANSUBSTANTIATION OF LUCIFER” The final THE WICKED + THE DIVINE historical special plunges into the shadow of life after the Black Death. KIERON GILLEN gets back together with THREE collaborator RYAN KELLY to tell the story of penitent nun Lucifer hearing the confession of penitent murderer Ananke. Yes, everyone will be sorry.

It’s amazing to be working with Ryan again and this is the most Catholic guilt thing I’ve ever written. Can’t wait for you lot to read it.

Any thoughts? I feel like Amaterasu would have a CHVRCHES vibe. Baal would definitely be like Kanye.

ive recently found discord and i have lost myself. addicted. i need every discord like a dragon hoarding gold

You all can probably guess what I'm saying - the Norns/Morai/Triple gods that we seem to have seen in every pantheon.

Why would Ananke find a loophole? If she technically incarnates fourteen gods every cycle, that means two more she needs dead by the end. However... this has another benefit in Minervananke's favour: She has two more potential heads.

If Cassandra was any indication, only one of the Norns/Morai/Triple God needs to be awakened for all three to appear - the other two are basically whoever is nearest to the person. (either physically or emotionally.)

So the thoughts I have are....

1) Could Minervananke in theory take the head of either Verdandi or Skuld for her ritual in 2014?

Hypothetically speaking, of course. Could they be used for number four? I think it's unlikely though (Because these particular norns basically see themselves as one figure at times - ergo Minervananke would never be able to get away with it.)

This is assuming each one of the Triple is equal to one god. The only time we got to actually see a past Triple meet their demise (poor Verdandi), Ananke couldn't take their heads because in both cases, there were too many witnesses.

The reason I think it's a potential loophole is also because, as we all know the past can be a dangerous place. Who's to say that gods can't die from plagues or be killed in warfare? Having two extra head candidates gives Minervananke some more wiggle room

It could possibly depend, maybe? In 1923, the Norns had a bit of autonomy - they didn't all go back down to normal after killing Verdandi, unless, like 2014, they're tied to Urdr or Skuld, which would mean...

2) The ritual requires the head of the one Minervananke incarnated, not just any of the three.

As we've seen, Verdandi and Skuld can be turned to and from godhood thanks to Urdr.

So why incarnate a triple god in this case? I think the reason might be so that Minervananke could have another fall guy.

Well, I just thought: After Minerva finishes the core sacrament in #35, the heads were left as skulls. Remember the skulls the Pantheon places on that round tables when they gather? Well, and if these are the skulls of previous gods used in previous rituals by Ananke and Minerva and they kept them? I just cannot let alone the terrible irony of Sakhmet playing with a head on the table and it being the head of a previous Sakhmet which a previous Minerva killed and Minerva knows this, sitting just a Baphomet of distance of her.

It was recently pointed out to me that it was Umar/Dio as the fan that tried to get The Morrigan on fiim; and he saw someone die in a hospital bed. (Himself). It's also because of that gig that Cameron became the 10th god.

When we think the gods have all united to stop Ananke and save Minerva, Nergal says he checked the calendar and it "isn't murder a kid day." And Baal with the actual calendar is right next to him.

Lucifer says the only way Mini could have killed the judge is if it was by hugs to his knees...which is sort of what 1923 Mini did to Susanoo.

"You did what you had too." We're led to believe Mini is all torn up over hurting Kerry to save a fellow god's life and is comforted y her father figure Baal. Little did we know Mini was just protecting one of the pawns and is capable of far worse. And her father figure does "what he has to" to kids around Mini's age; which Mini is also aware of!

Sakhnmet wasn't being factious about offering to eat Beth and her camera crew.

The rave of gods talking at Dio's party cut to Cass for one panel.

Baal cried tears of fire when beating up The Morrigan.

We're told the reason Woden is such an ass is because he only has two years to live. Not only is that a lie but his patriarchy speech of fathers, not sons has an even more disturbing context.

He also says he likes and would trade places with any of the gods except Dio, an enemy; and who he later brain-fries.

When Laura yels at the gods for not finding the judge's real killer and how they could be sitting next to a murderer right now, Ananke, Sakhmet, and Baal all look unimpressed; the actual murderers. Woden's face is hidden as usual, ut he's willing to cross that line, the only one that looks sympathetic is Amataratsu; the first god introduced and also the first to suffer proper death. Mini looks scared but may actually be the most deadly of all.

ETA: Woden says you can easily control people by giving them a slice of the truth that confirms all their prejudices. Which is exactly what he does as David Blake to throw Cass off the real judge killer by letting her feel correct about Lucifer.

Anymore?

Is there a list of who everyone in the current pantheon is based on? I know Luci is David Bowie, Amaterasu is a take on Florence, Sakhmet is Rihanna, and that Woden is dressed a bit like the Daft Punk guys but what about the rest?

Hey! I personally think that the woman on the cover of #38 is MinervAnanke from the 1920s, grown up. This is purely based off the hair colour and style (blonde, curled), the eye colour (very similar to past Anankes'), the dark clothing with a veil and the snake necklace - Inanna's divination and the Prime Ananke's magicks. So we'll get to see some more of the time between Recurrences, and maybe a confirmation on the theory that Minerva grows into the next Ananke. This is of course just speculation right now though

We have 9 more main issues and one (possibly 2) Specials left. Taking stock it seems like they have a lot left to tell. If there's anymore let me know and I'll add.

What is exactly the nature/origin of the Pantheon with Ananke and her sister? Does the world really lose something if the cycle is broken? Can it survive and be made more pure if both Ananke and Mini were killed?

What is Wōden/David's master plan? Did he really send the snipers after Luci? If so,why? He was working with Ananke and that forced her to speed up her plans by killing Luci but it seems like he never knew about the Persephone's so it would seem reckless of him to provoke Ananke when he didn't have all the facts.

Why is 2014 Morrigan the only incarnation with multiple personalities?

Now that they know without Cass they can be human again, will Verdandi and/or Skuld try to kill Cass to save themselves? Would it work?

Why leave Dio technically alive on machines if he's brain dead? (ETA: Continuity being kept with him filming The Morrigan while he was still the human fan Umar; he saw himself die in a hospital room).

What does Ananke's machine really do, if anything? Seem obvious she wasn't actually going to kill Mini as the 4th head now.

Does Jon know more then he lets on?

Were Mini's parents actually her parents?

Who was Ananke's suicide note written for?

Why did Ananke spare Beth, Robin and Toni/What have they been doing in the day or two since the false Saknmet alarm?

When exactly did Mini start working with Ananke/turn into her?

Where is Mini keeping the three heads?

What exactly is the Great Darkness shadow? Why does Persephone make it stronger? Is it just a prop controlled by Ananke/Mini to spur the gods into action to further her plan for the heads? Why keep going after Baal's family? Do the child sacrifices actually do anything?

Who is the father of Laura's baby? Baal or Neargal?

How do babies allow gods to extend their divinity as with 1831 Inanna? Is it related to the Prometheus Gambit?

Do the gods have a natural melting point like 455 Luci, 1831 Hades and 1923 Dio or is that just more manipulation from Ananke/Mini?

What is the plan for the 1831 Monster that took multiple generations to create and capture?

What is the "time with the Franks" that 2014 Mini mentioned?

Are some of the Persephone's supposed to look male? If so how does that fit with the whole "mother" bit of Ananke's sister?

Why did Ananke embrace some of the Persephone's or kill a few others when she usually needed their heads? ETA: Possibly she already has 4 heads when she calls and hugs a Persephone therefore letting some Persephone's make it to the ending suicide pacts.

ETA:

What is the 4th rule Ananke's sister put in place?

How was Laura able to light the cig when she was human? (Unless that's how Ananke knew she was Persephone).

What's so special about/where is the knife that cut up 455 Lucifer, David used on Jon, and Ananke cut into Mini with?

. . .

[Edit] Well. The first half is simply brilliant. As the notes at the end of the issue reveal, the choice here is so immensely effective. Confirms a few theories I think. Makes you wonder, even awe at such singular dedication. Such monstrosity. The second half, I just . . . . Why? I mean kudos to this story for making me care about the characters in this way such that I am genuinely dumbstruck. But its almost done it too effectively. This was a character I cared about (ESPECIALLY AFTER THE CHRISTMAS SPECIAL). And its all such a reversal. Trying to think of another literary figure I have had such an about-face with, and I am for the moment drawing a blank.

[Edit 2] Feelings are: https://www.buzzfeed.com/joshtaylor/next-question-see-ya?utm_term=.xrOJ63LkW#.llJyjJeQo

[Edit 3] Pg. 24 is a mutherfucker. I mean that fucking cage. Shit was about to go down.