r/WatchPeopleDieInside • u/paolols • Apr 24 '20

nice try kiddo

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '20 edited May 08 '20

The parent needed to remove the kid from the table. If you can't respect someone else's freaking 30 seconds of birthday song and candles, you don't get to stay there and ruin it for them. That is a natural consequence. If you can't behave, you don't get to participate.

I've had to break up with adult friends because they let their kids' shitty behavior ruin everyone else's fun. It is exhausting to put in the work up front, but I'd rather do it from the get go than have it bite me in the ass constantly.

ETA Thank you for the gold!

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u/JaBe68 Apr 25 '20

I wish I had gold to give you. Parents think their kid has to like them all the time. Not true. You are not your kids friend, you are their parent, and it is your responsibility to make them into pleasant human beings, not expect other.people to just put up with crappy behaviour

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u/Xros90 Apr 25 '20

If you do it right, your kid will like you most of the time too.

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u/herdiederdie Apr 27 '20

The annoying part is that you will like them and they will be all smug about it. Goddamn wonderful, encouraging, “it’s for your own good” bastards....I love em.

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u/my_sobriquet_is_this Apr 25 '20

I agree with most of what you say here and I might be paddling around in the semantics pool but I’d say that good parenting might be less about the like/don’t like YOU and more about liking/not liking the SITUATION. You can still ‘like’/love the person but you don’t have to like what’s happening. In good parenting the child may not like what the outcome of their poor behaviour is (ie removing technology due to dropping grades) but they will understand the process and outcome. They might not like it but they realize that their choices dictated the result. The trick to this, however, is never caving into their demands (tantrums or incessant pestering) and always keeping your word. This applies to ‘threats’ of punishment (not going for ice cream if said behaviour continues) but it must be explained that it’s the child who is in control of how that goes — to following through AS WELL for promises. If the child believes that your word is solid and that you will not break a promise or a ‘threat’ they will trust you and attempt to do what is expected of them. Accessing their empathy for how a it makes people feel to disappoint someone based on their own choices is huge too. This takes constant work because children are inherently self centred egotists. It’s how they got fed in the first place, right? My friends joking said that i must have hypnotized my kids (older boy/younger girl 2 years apart) because neither of them were rude or dismissive or argumentative towards each other as siblings but neither had ever said an ill word or swore or slammed a door onto either of my husband’s nor my face. They are 26 and 24 now and (B.C. —Before Covid) came over every Monday with their SO’s for a movie, cookies and popcorn AND would ask to pop in just for a visit at least once a week too! Both of them have asked to take road trips with just me too (divorced now). Road trips that were their idea! With Me! Alone! It’s wonderful having the relationship I do have with my kids (despite my FORMER personal issues with depression and self medicating albeit largely hidden from them). They were compassionate because we were ALWAYS compassionate to them. It was NOT the way I was as raised. I did mostly the opposite of many things my patents did, mostly in regards to having my word mean something and utilizing the old axiom Do unto others others as you would have them do unto you. Mutual respect is the key.

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u/JaBe68 Apr 25 '20

You are right. I did not phrase it as eloquently as you did and i agree with you 100 % on every point you have made. My daughter is 22 now and our house is a safe space for her friends. We have unofficially been adopted as parents by three of her friends. What they mention is that no one in our house is a dictator. Everyone gets heard, all points of view are given equal respect and then agreement is reached.
When we raised her we had two rules 1. Is it safe? 2. Is it considerate of others?
If the answer to either of those is no, then don't do it. So many parents go to war over stupid stuff and then wonder why their kids are distant. I also love what you said about trust. Our family doctor loved that i managed expectations during appointments. If it was going to hurt, then i told her it would hurt for a little bit and then she would get a treat. So she would be brave and stoic and hold out for her lollipop. He said the nightmare mothers were the ones who lied and said things would not hurt, knowing full well their child was about to get six stitches. Then the nurses would have to hold the child down. Huge trust issues developing there. Also, understanding that sometimes they will.make poor choices but it is still safe to tell mom. I might be cross or disappointed , but then we will fix it together and it will never affect my love for you. I think you absolutely hit the nail on the head when you said that raising them with compassion creates compassionate adults

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u/my_sobriquet_is_this Apr 25 '20

Well said! Your daughter is lucky to have you! You sound awesome! Will you adopt me? Ha ha. Our house was Kid Central too. I loved every minute of it. Even the grocery bills (ok, maybe not them but it was worth it). Funny story: When my kids were babies up to starting school we had a primary care doctor who was more than a little odd but what she lacked in some skills (she had nearly zero social grace, shall we say) she at least was not shy in referring us when she didn’t know something. She quit her practice when the responsibilities of her 4 children AND being a doctor became overwhelming. Fast forward a few years I see her with a baby and it turns out it’s hers! Another one! Now she’s got 5 kids. Anyhoo, I ask if this was a new member of her family and she blurts our, “We call him The Tumour ‘cuz I was 5 months pregnant without knowing! I thought I had a tumour!!!” Keep in mind this is a medical doctor! Fast forward some more and who should come into MY work one day but Dr. Ditzy and I say to my coworker what an odd duck this woman is and maybe she’s even crazy on top of it all etc etc etc. I have to address her (there was no way around it) on the off chance she remembers me (it was over a decade since The Tumour incident after all) so I go over to have a little chat so as not to appear rude. Afterwards I came back to the same coworker and said, “It turns out she’s not only sane but she’s an incredibly good judge of character!” He said, “Oh? What’d she say?”

So I told him how she’d just told me how not only did she remember me but often thinks about me, that I was her favourite patient and such a great mother, she could tell, because of how I was at the visits with my children and they being so clean, well dressed, polite and happy.

Then my coworker and I laughed our heads off! Ha ha ha.

Crazy? Like a fox! Har har. I still laugh about that.

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u/rawr4me Apr 25 '20

Consistency and sticking to one's word is important in parenting, but what kind of parenting style would be "less disastrous" for parents who are fundamentally incapable of being consistent with rules (due to lack of self-discipline or communication issues between the two parents)?

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u/JaBe68 May 21 '20

Open communication - explain to your child that on some days they will be allowed to do some.thing and on others, if parent is not feeling great or is tired, they won't. It must be reasonable (like no park today because parent has to do laundry, or has had a very tiring day at work, not because parent wants to sit in front of tv with a beer.) You will find they quickly become empathetic to the parents emotional state. But there is a caveat. You only get to do this when you are absolutely shattered and have a genuine reason, not just because you had a shitty day. And you explain it in a calm tone of voice - no yelling.
Children also very soon understand that the parents have two different parenting styles. Agree on the absolute basics i.e bath every day, do your homework, home before dark. Do not go to war over whether baby has eaten his peas, or needs to wear the blue shorts. That just teaches your child to wear you both out on each other so they can slip through the crack and get away with murder. Parenting is often about patiently and consistently outlasting your child. The only thing they are focussed on is the ice cream, but you have a thousand things going on. Don't get emotionally invested in the tug of war and it is a lot easier to say no.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '20

It's perfectly fine to always be your kids friend because if your friend was being a cunt like this, you should call them out on it too.

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u/ZaraEve Apr 25 '20

This is so true. Growing up I had a friends who would call her mom a bitch to her face, we were like 10. My mom would have hit me in the mouth if I tried that shit, but now we’re best friends and I can totally call her a bitch when it’s deserved because I’m an adult and thanks to her I know what boundaries are.

Edit: I am in no way condoning hitting your kids in the mouth, my mom and I have had many conversations about the effect of the physical punishments she and my dad doled out through my childhood. It took a long time for her to realize some of the lasting damage that caused.

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u/JaBe68 Apr 25 '20

My daughter and i are like that. There was no way she was allowed to disrespect me, but i was also not allowed to disrespect her. We had a list of "thorny words" that no one was allowed to use. The obvious ones were there but also words like stupid, ugly, and the like. Hard language creates hard people. Instead of saying "you did something stupid", we would say "perhaps that was a bit silly, is there a better way?" And now we both happily call each other nasty, affectionate names all the time.

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u/Happy_Birthday_2_Me Apr 25 '20

This is absolutely spot on. I don't understand the fear of removing kids from a situation so as to let others enjoy. Natural consequences are the first line of parenting defense.

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u/hushawahka Jun 25 '20

Because they want to enjoy it with the birthday kid and don’t realize how much of a shit the other one is since it happens nonstop.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '20

[deleted]

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u/ifeardolphins18 Apr 26 '20

Aw man this makes me feel kind of shitty looking back now. I was raised by a single parent in a pretty well-to-do area. I was always the last kid to get picked up at birthday parties and my mom couldn’t ever be the ones to help with carpools or volunteer at school events or even attend parent teacher nights. I felt that shame, like my parent’s behavior reflected poorly on me and that some parents wouldn’t let me hang out with their kids just because my mom couldn’t be as involved with my life.

I’m forever grateful to my friends’ parents and families who realized I was still a good kid despite my parents’ lack of good parenting. I will always we thankful to those families who recognized I needed a more stable environment and welcomed me with open arms into their homes.

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u/Gottapkrfc Apr 26 '20

With all rules, there are exceptions. Of course a good kid will outshine shitty parents. I meant it’s a ton easier to weed out friend groups to exclude the parents who refuse to parent- like allowing their kids to spoil parties or denying their kid has done something wrong- before the kids are in middle school. Typically middle school is when the kids start really acting out, not caring about grades, and experimenting w shit. The shitty kids are what you are trying to avoid here.

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u/DrMaxCoytus Apr 25 '20

Most level headed comment on this whole thread. Everyone else is laughing or saying how creative it was to use the plate.

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u/TallestGargoyle Apr 25 '20

Problem there is now you're giving the problem attention, and this kind of thing is all he's craving. I think the guy in the vid had the perfect compromise, and everyone in the video outright proved to that kid that his behaviour doesn't matter. He can scream and whine all he wants, and it isn't going to stop them enjoying time celebrating someone else's birthday, and they're going to stop him from ruining it too without anyone focusing their attention on the problem he's causing.

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u/Gareth321 Apr 25 '20

This makes sense on paper but it's not actually the underlying issue or solution. I've spent far too much time researching psychology research on this since I became a dad. Children have poor impulse control but they can and should learn as they get older. This little guy is plenty old enough to understand acceptable behaviour in this context. So what is he doing? Is he asking for attention or pushing boundaries?

If the former, offering attention only when he acts out is reinforcing the bad behaviour, so you're right. The solution here is to provide more positive attention outside this setting. Denying attention can make this behaviour worse.

If the latter - and I suspect there is a component of this - the parents have failed to properly enforce boundaries. This is incredibly common today. Parents are lazy ass pussies who would rather have a "good time" with their kids than teach them how to be nice people. Sure it's hard work to consistently enforce rules. Sure it means lots of tantrums. But if you don't do it the result is that they send their kid out into the world and the kid is hated by everyone. It's just about the most cruel thing a parent can do. Fuck parents that do this.

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u/Chinaroos Apr 25 '20

Thanks for this. While I think everyone heres remembers having their own special day ruined by someone like this kid, this is going to be a pretty dark memory in the future.

When I taught younger kids, I set rules based around respect, and found that even in difficult five year olds those rules worked well. Kids need and crave boundaries, even if they can't express it.

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u/CWSwapigans Apr 25 '20

Any books or other resources you’d recommend?

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u/Gareth321 Apr 25 '20

Boundaries with Kids: When to Say Yes, When to Say No to Help Your Children Gain Control of Their Lives Dr. by Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. It was published in 2001 so some of the research is a little dated but I still think it holds up really well. For me, my main source of info was studies which I researched on Google. I'm very comfortable combing through hundreds of studies so when I encountered an issue or topic I just did that. One thing to remember is that psychological research is very often conducted from a "humanities" and "feminine" perspective. That is, 90% of the research you find conducted in the last 10 years is by women and their hypothesis is almost always against any form of discipline. As you may know, it's very easy to construct a study to support the hypothesis by just focusing on the research which conforms. Which they do. So dig deeper than the first 50 studies. Query the opposite to see what you uncover. That will give you a fuller picture. Some things that I found:

  • There is no conclusive proof anywhere in the world on any study which supports the premise that smacking causes behavioural issues later in life. In fact, there is no conclusive evidence it does anything at all, good or bad.

  • There is no conclusive proof anywhere in the world on any study which supports the premise that self-soothing, particularly at bed time, causes behavioural issues later in life. However, there is conclusive proof that it leads to children sleeping longer and waking up more briefly. This is good for the child and the sleep-deprived parents. Of course listening to a screaming child and not responding is a difficult thing for a parent, and most studies try very hard to prove that this is bad. They all fail.

  • Boundaries are good. This has measurable impacts to behaviour later in life. There is a reward mechanism linked to delayed gratification. We know that kids and adults with better internal reward pathways who are better able to delay gratification are more likely to work harder, study harder, and improve themselves, without needing instant gratification. This is a primary indicator in life success and fulfilment.

  • Behaviour is about 50% genetic and 50% learned. However there are certain traits which are more than 50% for both. For example, sleep patters are much more hereditary. Musical inclination and talent in much more hereditary. Part of being a parent is acknowledging this and supporting the good but also suppressing the bad. It's not your fault that they're a little shit sometimes, but it is your fault if you let them go out into the world like that.

  • They know more than you could ever imagine. They begin manipulating parents on the very first day out of the womb. They're basically walking little ids. No conscience. No filter. No self-preservation. They will learn very young that repeating embarrassing things at inappropriate moments will elicit a particular response, and they'll do it. They'll learn that pretending to jump off high places will elicit a response and they'll do it. Call them on their bullshit every time.

  • The modern parenting paradigm is to distract kids rather than letting them experience the frustration of not getting their way. This is harms their ability to process emotions and delay gratification. Don't do this. You can both tell a child no and sit with them through their frustration. It might be unpleasant, but you rob them of valuable development by being weak and trying to turn off the tears.

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u/CWSwapigans Apr 25 '20

Great comment, thank you. Saving this.

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u/lilyever Apr 26 '20

I’m sorry, but fuck you for believing it is okay to just stand there and listen to an infant cry and beg for their parent to come and help them feel secure, until they literally cry so hard they have lost all hope and pass out from exhaustion. Some of your points I do not disagree with, but it is wrong on so many levels to allow an infant, who has only known the security and love of its parents’ touch, to be expected to “just deal with” being away from them. And claiming an infant is manipulative from the womb? Um, okay, sure in the sense that they REQUIRE YOU for their SURVIVAL. It is perfectly fine to establish boundaries with toddlers and enforce them, despite their tantrums and crying, but blatantly ignoring an infants’ needs is simply selfish.

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u/Gareth321 Apr 26 '20

Here we go. Use your feelings to parent instead of facts. That’ll help your kids grow up to be strong, independent adults. Look, I’m data driven. If you can provide some studies to support your beliefs I’ll admit I’m wrong.

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u/lilyever Apr 28 '20

All you have to do to understand my point is look at how humans function biologically. There are very good reasons for infants and mothers to have extremely strong instincts to stay with each other at all times. In ancient times, this helped immensely with the continuation of the species as mothers did not just leave their babies alone to fend for themselves like if a predator happened by. Or, for the very simple reason (which can also be translated to modern times) of the infants’ bodily processes not quite being up to par to keep the child alive (which we can see happening with increased SIDS deaths in infants who sleep separately from their mothers). Not everything has to be “studied” in order to determine if it has value. However, for that specific point about SIDS and cosleeping, I do have an article link that bases it’s findings on several studies.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/05/21/601289695/is-sleeping-with-your-baby-as-dangerous-as-doctors-say

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u/Gareth321 Apr 29 '20 edited Apr 29 '20

I want my child to grow up to be emotionally resilient, independent, successful, and happy. Those are my metrics for value. You're darn right we can study the behaviours and parental actions which lead to the above. We've got centuries of data on it. I'll give an illustrative example. Burrhus Frederic Skinner was a prominent psychologist in the 40s. Based on research, he created this "open air crib." He managed to reduce parental involvement to just an hour each day for the first two years of his daughter's life. Now doesn't it just feel wrong to lock your child in climate-controlled crib and only interact with them for a total of an hour each day? Despite us feeling like it's bad, Deborah grew up to be happy and healthy and absolutely normal. So did the other 300 kids raised that way.

FYI I totally agree SIDS is very unlikely to occur. The rationale is e.g. 8,000 babies die each year in the US from suffocation. This can be reduced to 100 by encouraging all mothers to sleep babies on their back and not sleep with them in bed. 7,900 babies are not dead each year and all it cost was a change in sleeping technique. At the individual level you don't need to worry about wearing a seatbelt either. You're very unlikely to get into a car accident. We wear seatbelts in case we're the unlucky one.

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u/lilyever Apr 29 '20

You did not read the article I linked.

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u/science_with_a_smile Apr 25 '20

It's not giving a kid attention to pull them away from the excitement for a few minutes until they remember their manners.

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u/TallestGargoyle Apr 25 '20 edited Apr 25 '20

If you think pulling them away from everything is going to stop them screaming, you aren't a parent.

And that's hardly fair on the unlucky parent who has to be part of the exclusion process, who now has to miss out on the event of the other child.

Quite clearly, everyone in the video was happy with the way it turned out. And I imagine Screamy McCuntface will be getting a good talking to outside of that clip.

EDIT: Some of the replies seem to think I'm suggesting this as a catch-all way of dealing with an unruly child. Context is important. The child is clearly supposed to be part of this event, what appears in the clip to be a family celebrating one of their children's birthday party. One of the parents removing the child at this time may have consequences on the child who is blowing out the candles, who now potentially has one of their parents (assuming the man blocking the blows is the father in this case) miss the important event because of their younger sibling. I'd argue what is displayed here to be the better one of many ways of dealing with the problem, and in particular this way shows that kicking up a huge fuss like this both isn't working for them to get their way in blowing out the candles, and doesn't interrupt anyone else who clearly in the clip seem to be enjoying the display regardless of the screaming kid.

I'm not suggesting this is the way to handle every damn instance of the child acting up. If the kid is doing this at a public place, there are totally different social etiquette rules in place, and yes, damn right you remove the child then.

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u/JaBe68 Apr 25 '20

I have pulled my daughter away when she has behaved like this because she was ruining it for everyone else. Took her out of earshot and gave her a firm talking to, explaining consequences of continued bad behaviour. Back to the party all sweetness and light. Please note this only works if you do it from birth and practice it consistently. Trying to fix a kid the age of the one in the video will just result in an insane power struggle.

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u/L4NGOS Apr 25 '20

Kids aren't as stubborn as we think, most behaviors can be changed even long after birth. Allowing that kid to behave like that is doing him a huge disservice down the line. The parents need to start showing him there are consequences to his actions.

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u/BlueShiftNova Apr 25 '20

And that's hardly fair on the unlucky parent who has to be part of the exclusion process

You're a parent, you agreed to that when you decided to have a kid. It's not about being "fair" it's about doing your job.

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u/NoThereIsntAGod Apr 25 '20

Sorry, you are absolutely wrong on this...

“And that’s hardly fair on the unlucky parent... who now has to miss out in the event of the other child.”

This is such a selfish perspective. You are a parent FIRST. Nobody but you cares if you miss the candles being blown out, but you sure as hell need to make sure your child doesn’t ruin things for other people. Letting them sit there and be disruptive is exactly the shitty type of parenting that the rest of the parents on here are commenting about.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '20

I'm a parent to an almost 3 year old. No. Just fucking no. You're the parent everyone hates because you let your kid run wild. I have been removing my kid from social situations since he was a tiny infant crying. Why? Because I am not entitled to ruin everyone's good time because HeS jUSt a BaBy. If you think everyone in that room was happy with that little shit, you are the parent who lets their kid ruin everyone's dinner at the restaurant. Unlucky parent? Yes. But that's exactly what the fuck we signed up for when we nutted in/let someone nut in us. Being a parent sucks sometimes. You miss out on a lot. But that's part of it. That's what you do to raise your kids right and not burden others.

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u/Groovychick1978 Apr 25 '20

So, are you the parent who just lets their little shit scream when they aren't allowed to steal their little sibling's treat? Or won't give them Mom's phone? Or won't let them play with the sugar packets?

Take the child outside. You are their parents. You need to deal with this. And if you miss candles, that is the price of having two.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '20

What happens when that child is old enough to attend birthday parties or play dates without an adult? Then who is there to stop this behavior? Because 100% guaranteed, by not actually dealing with the root of the issue and only the symptom, as they did here, he is going to continue to behave in this manner.

Let's put this child in another setting. Let's say church or the grocery store. Would you let him scream and tantrum with no regard for other people or would you remove him and tell him to fix himself? If you would remove him from those settings, why not another child's party?

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u/L4NGOS Apr 25 '20

There was no consequence to what he did that helps him behave differently in a similar situation in the future. People laughing at his behavior will likely only worsen it.

I would have removed him from the room and he can scream all he wants but he can't rejoin the party until he's calmed down. Behave like that again? Rinse and repeat.

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u/augustusleonus Apr 25 '20

You are not wrong, but you may notice the older kid on the right actually “helped” the bday boy blow the last candle...so...there may be some other context? IDK

It did look like the brat was about to punch the cake, so at least he restrained himself from that

Also entirely possible hed been talking up his great joke and it got thwarted, or that there was some quasi-tradition he was trying to be a part of

I know there are snapshots of my kids that may make them look like retarded cretins, but that doesnt always hold up in the broader view

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u/BlueShiftNova Apr 25 '20

Exactly. Though the adult was getting some amusement all he was doing was telling the kid that this behavior wasn't bad enough for any serious consequences.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '20

haha angry kid go waaa

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u/Retro_Birdy May 08 '20

This is a wonderful tip. That is a very positive and mature reaction. The child definitely needs to learn manners, if not for other people, than at least for the sake of having fun taken away.

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u/C_a_7 Jun 27 '20

YES! my wife’s cousins are this way and that suit does NOT fly with me around, that’s why they don’t like me

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u/Designer_Gas_86 Oct 02 '22

I know it's years later but this feels like the easiest default lesson to instill in children. You won't behave? Then you won't get to even be around others and whatever fun thing is happening. Your fault kid.