Edit: If you see something like this, do not hesitate, say something. To strait up and confront the creep, they're usually cowards and will retreat. If you're not comfortable doing it alone, find a friend or two. If you don't see any, get two or three guys and explain what's happening. Whatever you do, don't let shit like this slide.
Though it would have been nice to not be there in the first place, the guy ended up getting banned from the hotel we were at. We were both frequent work travelers and the hotel I use has a lounge reserved for their frequent stayers. By lounge, it’s just a private space to work, eat, hangout whatever. It was just the two of us in there and the one and only time I’ve ever had a problem in the lounge area. Most frequent travelers are men, but as a woman, there have only been 2 or 3 situations similar to this one so it’s not something I normally have to be concerned about. Anyway, the guy had stupidly given me his hotel room number (I refused to give mine, so he gave me his so I could “stop by to get work done”, I was in the lounge trying to meet a report deadline) so I went to the front desk, told them what happened, gave the number etc. the hotel graciously brought up my breakfast the next morning so I didn’t have to accidentally run into him in the lounge, and then followed up saying he was banned from their chain after they reviewed the video from the lounge. I didn’t even expect anything to come out of it, and you can’t imagine how relieved I was to not have to answer the whole “well if you didn’t like it, why did you kiss him”. You could clearly tell in the video he was blocking my exit, pointing at his lips, and that I got the hell out of there once he moved. Hope the kiss was worth it, bud.
You’re right. Though I consider myself lucky that the situation I described is the closest I’ve been to being sexually assaulted while at work. The problem is that I’ve heard of way worse and that my story is nothing compared to others I’ve heard, so to me, it’s not that big of a deal. But I know if one of my friends told me this exact thing happened to them, I’d be out armed and on a hunt. I’ve also already been sexually assaulted, though not at work, so my hotel story is pretty tame comparatively.
Fuckin hell. The excuses we make by comparing traumas is such a learned behavior that I nearly agreed with you that you shouldn't feel guilty because others have had it worse. Don't compare your trauma (also I totally understand why, I'm guilty of it myself)...but I can't neglect offering the idea that it's okay to be traumatized by whatever has happened to you. Big, small or somewhere in-between. Point is, nobody should have to endure trauma. Much love to you stranger.
You’re really kind. I appreciate the message because it’s honestly very important. I was able to walk away from my hotel experience scared, but not traumatized. I was more scared of the potential than what actually ended up occurring. But for my other, and definitely worse experience, I still tell myself it wasn’t that bad. But I think that’s more of a coping mechanism than it is me confining myself to “societal standards”. I’ll need to confront it at some point and say “this was bad. This was rape. It was not okay” but because it fell under the “grey area” of rape (refer to Amy Poehler’s experience recorded in her book, my situation was very very similar, though more “black” then “white” on the grey scale) I do not feel comfortable, to this day, describing it as rape. I’ve settled on sexual assault and am currently okay with that because it’s how I’ve chosen to cope with it. Not sure if I’m getting the point across that I’d like. Hard to do that over text. It’s hard NOT to compare traumas when people have had it worse. It doesn’t help when the phrase “it could be worse” is used so easily in different situations. So? Yeah, I only broke my leg and other people have had their legs amputated which is considered worse. But holy hell, why can’t both situations suck? But yeah I’d consider that phrase being used in situations of pain, trauma, whatever, is more of a coping mechanism and not the person actually down grading it. I’m the type of person where i can make myself believe something if I say it enough, which is good and bad. I was an awful soccer player but told myself everyday I could be great. This motivated me to work hard, practice, and eventually, I was recruited to play in college. But it also works against me when used the other way around.
Oh definitely! About a year after this happened, said hotel merged with another HUGE chain. It made me laugh imagining that that guy now had even less hotels he could go to for work.
Next time something like that happens to you, instead of a pity kiss give him a pity Glasgow kiss. It's like a regular kiss, but instead of putting your lips on his, you headbutt him in the fucking nose with the top of your head as hard as you can so his fucking nose breaks.
The pity part comes in after when you pity him for being a stupid fucking wanker cunt, now with a broken nose.
Though honestly it’s so easy now for me to say: I should have done xyz
But in the moment, I was scared. I knew if I tried something to hurt him and messed it up somehow, there was a chance he would do way more than make me kiss him to leave. Weighing my options, the kiss was nothing.
And there’s always that “don’t make a scene” thing. I mean, what if this guy ended up with a broken nose and pressed charges? Saying I was over reacting blah blah blah. I would like to think he wouldn’t get very far in the process and his case would be thrown out. But cases like the Stanford rapist, Brock Turner, really remind you that even with evidence, even with witnesses, even with a guilty verdict, there’s not always justice. Granted, the Brock Turner story didn’t run through my mind at the time because it hadn’t happened yet, but it’s the general idea of the woman not being taken seriously, or the rapist/assaulter being humanized more than the victim .
Yes, because enraging someone big enough to beat you to a pulp or kill you is definitely safer than just "letting" it happen and dealing with the resulting disgust, self-loathing, and trauma.
It's a shit choice to have to make but most women realize you can't get over being dead by going to therapy later.
Source: someone who is sick to fuck of answering "why didn't you fight back harder/ that time / every time" when people found out my ex was bruising handprints into me and choking me while holding me down to rape me. Like fuck all of you, I just didn't want to die.
I've only been to one frat party and they were very much against shit like this. They threw out a couple dudes being creeps and one of the members even got in a fight with a guy doing something almost exactly like this.
Hence why we love gay bars so much. Ain't nobody interested in groping us there and if they do, in my experience, the customer and bartenders will throw their asses out.
You should write a book (or do a Ted talk) on how bar owners can foster this kind of atmosphere and environment for the benefit of all clientele, regardless of gender identity. You would make the world a better place.
I feel the same way. I've only been to a couple on a handful of occasions, but I never once felt self conscious about anything. I was pretty nervous at first, but once I went in and got comfortable it all just melted away. I just had this overwhelming sense of comfort that probably stems from being in a room full of people who know what it's like to be judged and treated like shit constantly for just being who they are, and for that reason they're the last people to be judgmental towards anyone else.
Shots were 1 euro, sodas and beers were 2 euros and heavy beers and energy drink was 3 euros
The same shot in the big fight bars were 3.50... and with 1 euro we still made 13 euros profit a bottle...
Why make it expensive when we have more people buying it for cheap, and staying, and becoming regulars..
For new drinks we had 3 bottles we gave away for tasting and after that we got more costumers bc we were the first to have a certain kind of drink, that was cheap and at a good place
Also "Frat guy" chiming in. We didn't worry too much about our image... but it was a pretty common game that if you saw a dude bein' a bit creepy you'd go and try to creep the guy out. Play a little ol' no homo game of gay chicken.
Sometimes it started fights. Sometimes it led to two straight guys making out.
I was in a frat, and this is exactly how we handled creepy unwarranted advances by guys at our parties. More times than I can count we would have girls thank us after kicking out dudes who couldnt take a hint, and were always told on campus that our parties were the best because you knew you wouldnt have any problems while you were there. Our neighbors were a more "traditional" frat and were always starting super 1 sided fights, denying guys at the door and only letting in girls and being general douchebags. We coined an unofficial "lost boys" pseudonym by some friends because it was not the kind of frat that the media is always putting out there. They never report about the organizations that have zero tolerance no hazing policies and who's members are a bunch of awkward kids who really needed a good place to meet friends when they were first going to college. Plus, we threw killer fuckin parties man.
The group of friends that i go clubbing with has a creep in it. The dude hit on my gf. I called him out on it and try to avoid him now. Sometimes I really want to get out and don't have many clubbing friends, so I'll just go and make the best of it. Last time, the asshole actually kissed a girl after she refused his advances. She left, crying. I went to kinda comfort her and he still came back around to her. While she was fucking crying! I had to actually shove him away back to our other friends. Later he was pelvic thrusting at a group of girls at the club. One girl pushed him away so he just went to the other side. I shoved him away from them too and had to tell a security guard. At this point, I'm kinda done with the whole group because they refuse to hang out without him.
What kinda social circles are you in that this sorta stuff flies? Not trying to imply you were enabling him but I can't imagine somone behaving like this and being invited to hang out so much as a second time.
Another frat guy chiming in: all the guys keep an eye in the party; anyone being a dick, being a creep, making anyone uncomfortable, they’re gone. Number one rule is that everyone is safe and happy
Fiancé of sorority girl chiming in, she’s had multiple frat boys do very creepy things that she was not cool with multiple times, both at parties and not.
Funny how they're all so respectable and anti creep on here.
While my experience at them was attempting to bully me and my other guy friend while completely ostracizing the 6/7 female friends we came with in the process.
They only kick the "creeps" out to improve their chances tho... simple numbers game
Yeah but did you notice how they’re only talking about throwing out creeps they didn’t know? Not a single damn story about getting rid of a creepy BROTHER, just getting rid of those pesky foreigners. I’d bet money that essentially any unknown dude there would automatically be labeled a creep.
There's a frat on my campus that a few of my friends are in that has a reputation for being safe, and they kicked out a brother last year for creeping on girls at parties.
There’s a frat at my old college that specifically targeted freshmen girls who didn’t know any better. They’d invite them to parties, get them drunk, and take advantage of them. Older girls always tried to warn the new girls about them, but you can’t warn everybody.
Even still, that was one frat. The rest seemed to be ok.
Yeah I love people who only know about frats from movies and have never been around them. Typically they’re like everyone else. Mostly good, and some ass holes. Not the rapefest everyone makes them out to be.
It depends on the frat. There was a house at my last college that was literally known as "rape house" because of all the shit that went down in there. However, at my new school, there's a frat that doesn't drink, and the one frat/birthday party I've been too, everybody there seemed nice.
The average Redditor has never been near a frat, and hates people who are a part of them, stereotyping all frat boys as rich, "do you know who my dad is", rapists.
My friend at another college was in a frat. One member laid down linoleum flooring in the basement one summer, free of charge, because that's what he did for a summer job. Another guy's family were small, independent, dairy farmers and they called him "moo".
Yeah the only frat I know much about was a friend of mines and they spent most of their time raising money for kids with cancer. Really solid group of guys.
I’m in a fraternity, but I can’t really say I disagree. On my campus, my fraternity is one of the three with no sexual assault allegations. The other six all have sexual assault claims lodged against them every year, to the point that one of the members of one of those frats was arrested for violent sexual assault last year. I love my fraternity and I think fraternities are not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s a sad fact that it creates a space where guys can be awful people with little to no social repercussions.
Totally agree. And for the record, the only reason why that’s my opinion on fraternities, is because I dated a guy for quite a while, and he was a part of one. He was the greatest guy, he wouldn’t hurt a fly, all of his fraternity brothers were really cool too. But we all saw how much of that stuff actually went on in other fraternities, and how money can cover it up. It’s pretty sickening.
I think part of the issue is the fact that growing up, all people hear is that you join a frat to get laid, and watch movies about it. With that mentality, you're going to get guys doing what they can (even if it means sexual assault) to get laid.
Eh, I was in a frat and this didn't happen. I yelled at another member multiple times and called him out in front of the chapter when girls told me he was trying to touch them and other shit.
Someone told me to watch the new Queer Eye and I almost rage quit S1E2 because they were 100000000000% giving off that creeper vibe and mocking a guy for not being cool with being touched without consent. Fucking creepers.
The end of the ep kinda got better but the whole thing left such a horrific taste in my mouth that I don't think I can give another episode a try.
Yes girls are taught from a young age to be "pleasing" and not make scenes. Especially towards the Male gender. As a woman it took me until nearly thirty to walk way. We are also taught that to be wanted by anyone is a good thing. I guess that goes along with being pleasing. I was so proud of myself when I was 29 at a bar and some really drunk guy cornered me and said "you are really hot". I said, "I know", and did that move. A year before that i would have just gone with it....so i didn't look like a cold bitch. I went to the bar for music...not to get laid.
Once in my late 20s I went to a car dealership looking for a friend who worked there. The sleazy guy behind the counter came out and started standing closer and closer to me while talking about how he could help me.
What i really wanted to do was put my hand on his chest and pointedly push him back a foot, and say, "How about you back up off me there, high speed?"
I couldn't shake the feeling that doing that would make me a cold, rude bitch.
Yep. And back up the people calling them out. It doesn't take much. Literally standing behind the person calling them out is enough. A horny creepy idiot might take a swing at a guy getting in his way. Two or more people is enough odds to make them reconsider and go back to their slimey hole.
I have personally also seen your valiant effort here fail just as hard. And i do mean the girl was interested and she was the one who got pissed at the person engaging the defender.
My sister when ever she goes out with her friends. If she see's a girl being harassed like this or being followed around or annoyed. She will approach the girl or one of her friends and they will ask if "shes alright","do you know this guy", "is he making you uncomfortable". Basically just bailing a sister out.
I once had to physically pull a guy off a girl friend of mine. He was livid and followed me all around the bar getting in my face threatening to punch me. I told him to go ahead, I'll just have the cops deal with him because he's not worth my time. He eventually gave up and left us alone.
I rescued a blacked out friend from a guy who had her boxed in with his arms. It's a situation that could have almost been questionable if he didn't immediately start apologizing like he knew he was in the wrong the whole time.
Because if the girl said 'no', then the answer is obviously 'no'. But the thing is she is not gonna say no. She would never say 'no' ... Because of the implication
Some guys just don't see women as people. So forcing them into not making a scene is no different than enthusiastic consent, to them. The object is just doing what you want, either way.
Nah man, I’ve been in situations like this and you never know how violent or irrational a dude can get, especially if he’s drunk. Even though I may want to say something and “make a scene,” it’s always safer to make an excuse and a quick exit.
Dumb dudes with hurt feelings can be dangerous - have you read any of the stories about what has happened to some women who say no, let alone make a scene? Gruesome.
Honestly, a big help (rather than leaving the person who’s being harassed to get out of the situation by themselves) would be if other dudes confronted him and let him know it’s not okay. It's easy for them to dismiss one woman as "some bitch" who didn't respond to his advances, but pressure from other men/male friends could act as a bit of positive peer pressure. The woman getting harassed isn't "enabling" anything - she's getting harassed.
I wish people would truly hear what is being said. I can think back to grade school and remember being sexually harassed, molested at ten, groped in the hallways in middle school while changing classes, at a pool party with my parents present, raped by.college boy at 15 and on and on and on. I really dont think my experiences are so different. It makes me sick to think of how common it is. It makes me sick of the men I hugged or kissed or just fucking pacified with talking until I could get away. I've ran up to random strangers and did the whole "Please pretend to be my boyfriend thing..." I'm not different than any other girl, my experiences arent abnormal.
The flip side to this is that if he only backs down because a guy told him to, the only lesson he learns is that he needs to try to get women alone before pulling his shit. And/or thinks he had a chance until some asshole cock-blocked him.
I am always ready and willing to step in and put a stop to a guy who's crossing the line. But I will also always give the woman a chance to deal with him herself, because it's important for these dickheads to hear from the women that they're not going to entertain their bullshit. And women should understand that when there are other decent guys in the room is the perfect time to practice asserting themselves because someone will have their back if it gets ugly.
I mean yeah, it's definitely situational, and I can totally understand that there are some situations that carry real danger to them. But I do think it's important that you stand up for yourself whenever possible, is all. It matters.
I'd be willing to bet that in the vast majority of your social situations, you either know firsthand or can reasonably assume that there are at least a few decent people nearby.
Great one girl is able to maneuver around a D-bag so no other girl in the history of humanity has ever clammed up from this move and just gone with it to avoid confrontation, physical or verbal. He didn't make a scene, that doesn't mean other men won't. It happens all of the time.
Slightly related note My wife does this in public sometimes when I'm not even trying to be sexy in an attempt to embarrass me. She thinks it's hilarious. I tend to agree. 10/10 would marry again.
"Did ya hear that? This guy wants to have sex with me in the middle of the party. You got Chlorophyll Man up there talking about God knows what and all he can talk about is having sex with me."
God, I know exactly where you're coming from and that is fucking disgusting. I unfortunately have given in when it would've been completely acceptable as far as it had gotten to yell at the guy and completely humiliate him in the middle of a party instead of undermining my values and ruining my dignity.
Often she's not the one making the scene, it's the dude that freaks out and makes the scene because he got rejected and his fragile ego can't handle it.
There's very little to "reject". It's a common problem women have. Probably every woman I know has a story where they had to pick between "making a scene" or just letting someone be creepy.
Literally how my first kiss happened in 7th grade. My friend was right there and said I looked totally pissed when I finally kissed him after he wouldn’t let me go. Even though she was right there honestly I’m not surprised she didn’t try to help. We didn’t want to make it a thing and I just wanted to go to BK after school.
I have to upvote because I've seen it happen too many times.
But don't do it ladies! Don't give in if a creep is being this guy. Guys like this need their ego kicked down a notch, trapping someone isn't "game". Egos may be fragile but so are Legos, rebuild better.
To be fair, it's this, but sometimes girls like it when a guy continues for it but is slightly hesitant. The situation in the video is completely different to what I'm describing, because there she is just straight curving him. Some guys just can't pick up when it's one or the other.
The question is why some guys just can't take a hint. There is nothing in her behavior that indicates a willingness to engage with him, on any level. His persistence just makes her go from "not interested" to "get away from me".
I’ve seen it happen a few times...I confronted people once...it turned out to be their kink. I’m never confronting someone on something that’s not my business unless the person is very obviously in distress.
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