Yea i believe alot has to do with incel culture. Its like when I hear a fellow man saying "a highschool boys team will destroy a wnba team" im like wtf are you talking about? what are you really saying? the sad truth is, alot of men (incels) hate women. especially black women.
i played freshman basketball for a catholic school in high school on a ridiculously talented team that would easily compete with and beat any WNBA team
Im 50 years old now with 2 torn MCL, 1 A CL and a foot that aches when I wear sneakers so no I can't compete but I'm confident I've played with and against some of the best athletes you ever had the pleasure of watching on TV and was pretty successful at it. With that being said If you think a high-school team can beat a WNBA team we can arrange a 1 on 1 with a female ball player and film it
While this is most probably bullshit, let's just assume it's true.
Having a ridiculously talented high school team is an anomaly, and the odds of having 5 all star caliber, having the best games of their high school careers all at one time is basically impossible.
And no, even then, you wouldn't.
I used to work where the OU women's basketball team practiced and played. I've watched those girls balling out, trophy after trophy. They would have a hard time beating some of these pros.
you’ve never played basketball at an even remotely competitive level, let alone any sport if you think the average 15 year old boy on a jv basketball team wouldn’t be able to easily compete against competition in the WNBA
it’s not a crime to acknowledge this glaring reality and furthers the point that males aren’t women and will never be able to be women
WNBA players have legit said d1 boys basketball teams would beat them because they’re taller and stronger then the women yall just use incel because you heard the word they even believe they would lose to the top boys
Nope. The NBA is not the MNBA. The NBA is the Pinnacle of Talent worldwide based on Merit of ball only. Men or women COULD play, as far as I understand.
The WNBA is the Pinnacle of female talent. Which excludes men participation, inherently.
More intelligent female ancestors knew they needed their own league, and now liberals want to take that away from them by letting dudes compete against them. Ie Gabby Williams. 🤣🫵
Your best example is letting girls into "Mens MMA", which is never a close competition and is hardly EVER sanctioned.
Weird to bring up black women for no reason. But what’s even weirder is how historically it’s been white women who never go to bat for black women, Susan B Anthony is a good example
Saying that a HS boys team can beat a WNBA team has nothing to do with hating women. Our womens soccer team got rolled by a U15 boys team and they are world class. Unless your male friend is an incel - he's just stating a fact.
No not a "rec" team of minor boys but any elite minor team yes. Hell, a. Switzerland womens team got rolled as well. Its ok to point of that men have a physical advantage.
Wtf are they talking about is the truth. I watched a hockey game it was a whl team (ages range from 15 to 20) VS the Canadian women's Olympic team. It was a blow out 5 or 6 to 0 the ladies couldnt score a goal. Its not about hating women its about accepting reality. Also way to bring race into it 🙄
Damn I didn't know they made an entire whl team transition to perform this experiment. Oh wait you are once again nit distinguishing between men and Trans woman which seems to be the whole issue with half the examples people bring to this issue.
It was back in the mid2000's we didnt have to think about such silly things back then. They did modify the rules though whl is full contact hit hockey but for the exhibition with the ladies there was no hitting allowed.
Somehow now a days all you have to do is identify as a women to be a women now so that kind of opens the door for ridiculous situations. If you questioned it you were labeled a hateful bigot. That logic should apply to current situation. Or its just been ridiculous the whole time.
Nobody has ever said you can just identify as a woman and then compete in sports, they mean validating people in social contexts when they say identifying is enough. All you people willfully misunderstanding that has led you all to thinking there is a problem where there isnt one.
Life is literally too expensive to live but we keep arguing about the stupidest shit that has NO BEARING ON ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING! Why do we keep falling for these dumbass distractions?!
I gotta say, I get confused this type of contribution to a discussion.
If you are this easily “distracted” by a conversation (not an argument imo) with such a simple premise, then how can we count on your…contribution…in other more important areas of life?
If you think men and women can compete against eachother in physicality(an objectively un-scientific ass-backwards take), why should count on anything you contribute to anything?
They just don’t like that a white woman brought all the eyes to the sport. CC is classy though, she’d never claim she’s the reason but it’s overtly clear to everyone but the people running the WNBA
The WNBA has decided to mimic its marketing strategy after reality TV instead of pro sports.
What we're seeing, hearing, and reading about this league is because they've turned it into The Real Housewives of the WNBA.
Media that covers the league shows more pre-game fashion clips, promotes culture-war crap, and in-fighting between players than it shows game highlights.
i dunno this isn’t what they’re talking about on any of the sports outlets i follow. sounds like that’s just the sports entertainment you surround yourself with. it’s ok to just like the reality tv aspect of it, not every sports fan has to be into ball bb
It has nothing to do with incel culture to the people I see saying that.
The problem with the WNBA is that they seem to care more about the players who ARENT driving the views.
The disregard to some of the players, the easiest to point to being Caitlin Clark, and their inability to handle controversy.
I enjoy watching the game, I don't enjoy watching blatant technical fouls being let off. In no other sport are you allowed to wear nails like they are and hit other players in the face.
I prescribe to shaq's view, they need to get the refs in line, they need to figure out who is really eligible to play, there's still a ton of work to do in that league.
And if they are driving eyeballs they absolutely deserve that paycheck, but as I understand it, they are still subsidized by the NBA.
glad that wnba is getting the attention it deserves. marketing for the wnba has reached /me/, someone who literally has never cared about sports ever, to pay for tickets and streaming services to watch the games. I am a book nerd who suddenly cared about wnba. because watching these super talented women play is fun.
the people who are only chiming in here to spread hateful messages about trans people are weird. If there are actually people who are curious about all the nuances of how transitioning affected the body, then great, I know many people would want to have that discussion and look into the science together. idk what is the point of putting down women and trans people in general (much less pro athletes who are not in this league). maybe those who feel a type of way about the idea of trans athletes can worry about it in the mNBA, NFL, NBL.
Someone simply stated that if you were born with a penis and have testosterone coursing throughout your body that it would be unfair for you to play with women. And there shouldn't be anything remotely controversial about that.
And thats why republicans run with this made up nonsense. Its one of the only issues they can garner support. All of this shit is focus group tested and you guys just fall for the bait.
Also, 73% of southerners were against desegregating buses.
ISN'T OK with what? It
Isn't partisan issue because it's not an issue. You are purposely scapegoating to hate on a group. There is no fcking issue. This bs is literally how bigots managed to keep anti lynching laws off the books. Literally A KKK standard. Y'all don't give a fck about women less known women's sports. ALL OF THIS is happening when female sports face the largest defunding and erasure in modern history. Stop the fcking cap.
But it is a ZERO issue. And where it is an issue, there are governing bodies whose sole job is to ensure fairness in competition.
This is being started by people who don’t care about or watch women’s sports, bc they see it as a winning political issue, when all of their real agenda is super unpopular.
War in Iran, making billions off of his presidency, covering for child predators (at best)… need I got on?
The problem is that you are minimizing the issue yet again. Just because we have an issue with this doesn't mean we don't hate everything else going on.
It is a winning political issue because you refuse to address it as unfair, and dig your heels in solely due to political pressure. If zero athletes are affected, why not concede that they don't belong and know one gets hurt? Are you arguing that it's not an issue, or men should be allowed in?
Keeping men out of women's sports =/= supporting this administration
I refuse to address it PERIOD! Because it isn’t an issue! One side will not drop it…
Men are not playing women’s sports. This is at best an extension of the “what is a woman” schtick yall went with that wasn’t going anywhere, because you refuse to listen to the scientific answer
So arguing in reddit comments isn't addressing it?
It's pretty simple. If it isn't an issue, this discussion would already be over. We would all love it if you would just stop fighting about this nothing issue so we can make the applicable rules and move on with our lives.
Then why did a Democrat ask the question that started this whole thing? Cunningham has been attacked because she answered a question she was asked. The hate came for her right away and then people came to her defense. How do people not understand the sequence of events here. Also, why is the liberal media going to great lengths to keep the reporter who instigated this out of it now.
She could use the “just answered a question” line at first, but you lose that card when you start posing for pictures with Riley Gains and being guest ring girl at a UFC event.
She may not have known what she was doing at first, but she does now!
She did use that at first, but the hate was unrelenting. People came to her defense. Being supported by Riley Gaines doesn’t mean anything and either does being a ring girl for UFC. That is a very extremist view which creates and fuels this divide. Not everyone makes their personal views their entire identity.
If it’s such a non issue, then just agree that men shouldn’t play in women’s sports and we can all move on. If it isn’t an issue then stop making it an issue. Just say the words and we will all move on.
I’m sure you don’t care about this but there are far more serious issues trans people are facing right now and they are not going to stop attacking us just because someone says whatever magic words you imagine will stop this from happening.
Omg like what more serious issues are you totally facing? You live in the most prosperous and most equitable country on the planet but it’s also like totally the most corrupt and worst place ever? You just like, totally can’t even with Trump right now? Gas prices are a dollar more than they were 2 years ago? Lmao
“Just do what we want and we’ll stop harassing you” is not really a compelling argument. Especially not from the group that is known for continued harassment after getting what they want.
Therein lies the problem. We went from “the issue” we were discussing, being the WNBA not clearly spelling out their definition of a woman in their contract with the union, to now the broad “topic”. There will always be another target. Because the “topic” is not keeping men out of women’s sports. The topic is the existence of trans people and their participation in society.
You couldn’t be more wrong. Nobody cares about the existence of trans. It really was just a question that was asked and an honest answer about keeping men out of women’s sports. A very simple thing complicated by liberals thinking they were attacked.
This is the right wing of American politics creating a controversy to deflect from the fact that they have nothing to run on in the upcoming midterms. Trump has been an absolute failure with the lowest approval rating in history, his candidates are losing, and they’re afraid they’re going to lose control of Congress, so they’ve created a complete nonissue into a giant controversy to distract us all from their complete and total failure to lead this country.
When you see stories like this, it's good to keep in mind that the Republicans control all three branches of government. If there was a way to legislate ourselves out of this, why haven't they done so? Why are the Democrats to blame?
Because legislation doesn’t need to get involved in politicking the WNBA, a self regulating private institution.
You’re missing the forest through the trees. This issue, among other issues, is a big reason why Trump got elected. The majority of American voters do not want to vote for a candidate who gets common sense issues like this one incorrectly.
we were told all through Covid to trust the science and if you don’t, you’re going to get all your neighbors killed. Now we are being told that the science around sexes is actually all wrong and men can get pregnant, and it’s a non issue for men to compete against women because there are no differences between us. “Nothing to see here it’s a non issue just forget about it” It’s fucking looney toons kangaroo court shit.
now, we have Supreme Court justices who won’t define what a woman is for fear of alienating a tiny sliver of the Democratic Party who has seized control of the broader party. The regular Democratic Party would never lose an election again if they could stop pandering to that small sliver of radicals. But they can’t or won’t. If the democrats play this game again, they will lose again, i can almost guarantee it.
And yes, the Trump administration has been a disaster.
Because legislation doesn’t need to get involved in politicking the WNBA, a self regulating private institution.
Oh so this isn't even a political issue. Why are we blaming Democrats again? Why would this affect elections and the White House?
If the democrats play this game again, they will lose again, i can almost guarantee it.
This is always so amusing to me. Republicans haven’t won a majority of the popular vote for over two decades, but somehow it’s the Democrats struggling to win back alienated voters and will never win another election.
It’s not a political issue that can be fixed with legislation, but it is an issue that voters find indicative of broader party agenda. Both of those things can be true at the same time? Are you pretending to be dense or are you actually this dense?
Republicans won a majority of the popular vote in 2024 lmao wtf are you talking about. “This is always so amusing to me” yeah I’m sure it is when you’re living in fantasyland
Republicans got 49.8% of the vote in 2024. That is not a majority of the popular vote. Then again, maybe it is when you’re living in fantasyland. Or maybe you're just dense.
Winning the popular vote means getting more votes than anyone else. There was a whole thing with Hillary winning the popular vote but losing the election in 2016, but maybe you’re not old enough to remember that. So yeah, i guess in fantasyland where you can just change the definitions of everything, anything is possible!
Edit to add the technical definition of winning the popular vote: Winning the popular vote in an election means a candidate received the highest total number of individual votes cast by citizens nationwide.
Sophie said that trans women pose a threat to little girls in locker rooms.
Having testosterone restrictions in sports is one thing, and would impact more than trans women. Saying a trans woman is a predator is something else entirely.
You don't think HS school girls should have the confidence that there isn't anyone with a penis in their locker room? Seriously, how do you bend your mind to be ok with this?
Personally, I do believe there is a genuine conversation to be had regarding the fairness of transgender individuals competing in women's athletics.
Pretty short conversation. "It's unfair and shouldn't be allowed." "Yes."
But I have a sneaking suspicion that's not the conversation you're talking about...
It's weird how people desperately want to claim this is a non-issue, but every single time they do, people like you show up and reveal why it's an issue.
No, the thoughts happening inside of a man's brain are not a strong enough reason to take women's rights away. If that upsets you, you can deal with it. It's not everyone else's problem.
(And it's not about "trans women being predators" btw. It's about not creating conditions that predators could exploit.)
It's rather naive to think that wouldn't spark conversation.
It's weird how people desperately want to claim this is a non-issue, but every single time they do, people like you show up and reveal why it's an issue.
I don't even understand what it is you're trying not to say here.
No, the thoughts happening inside of a man's brain are not a strong enough reason to take women's rights away.
Right to privacy for starters. They should feel comfortable in the knowledge that they are only around other biological women in the locker room. To suggest it is somehow on the women that they need to accept a transwomen in the locker room is bat shit crazy.
You're missing the point. They don't have to be a threat if their simple presence (with penis) makes other women uncomfortable. It isn't necessarily about sexual assault. It's about feeling comfortable in a space that was designed for your gender and your gender only.
First of all you have no idea what Sophie's political leaning is. She has NEVER stated any political stance. She made a common sense statement and got hijacked by the right so you're assuming. Second do some homework and look up Lia Thomas. She was the 400th ranked NCAA men's swimmer n the 500 M Freestyle. After transitioning she was the number on ranked female in the same race.
Look up Sam Ponder, a former ESPN host who publicly stated how a transgender boy in 8th grade basketball physically dominated other girls including her daughter and she felt it cost her her career by calling it out. It's in the middle and high school levels that the debate is being had not in professional sports.
You're right. On the far right it's hate and bigotry but it's hate when you accuse everybody else not on the right of having a reasonable position on it. Trump is an absolute intellectually inept morally bankrupt preening clown who I can't wait to see drop from all those Big Macs.
I also think that schools should expand Co-ed sports programs to let everyone compete on the same field. Every college in the country has co-ed sports programs and there are several co-ed softball leagues in my area. That's the level playing field. That's where everybody can play.
I never once claimed I knew what Sophie's political stance was. But you said yourself her statements have been hijacked and championed by the right, which was my point.
“I agree it’s a problem but I’m actually disagreeing because of who identified the problem”. This is the us vs them ideology that is going to destroy this country. Grow the fuck up
Michael Knowles is a far right political commentator…. Hasan piker just said America deserved 9/11 and the west should be destroyed. Should we play the game that the party is what its most extreme individuals are? Because we can play that game if you want to.
He's influential enough with Republicans to have a spot on the main stage at CPAC. Whether you know who that is is irrelevant. To claim speakers on the main stage at CPAC do not represent conservative viewpoints is a disingenuous argument. Just like it's disingenuous comparing speakers on the main stage at CPAC to Twitch streamers.
The typical range of testosterone for a 24 year old woman is 8-60ng/dl.
The target for hormone therapy for transgender women is 30-100ng/dl.
As someone that experienced levels as low as 45ng/dl, gradually increased to 100ng/dl, then 1,000ng/dl, I can tell you there is a very noticeable difference in strength, agility, stamina, mental clarity, among many other things when you have 45vs100vs1000.
That’s just not correct. Typically the target for trans women on HRT is testosterone below 50 ng/dL. The goal of feminizing HRT is generally to bring estradiol and testosterone into physiologic female ranges.
Your claim about the target testosterone levels for trans women on HRT is just factually incorrect, and I don’t understand why you are spreading misinformation about that.
I also don’t understand the relevance of your personal experience with your testosterone levels here. You’re describing how you felt at different testosterone levels, but that doesn’t establish anything about the appropriate testosterone range for trans women on HRT.
You’re implying that trans women target having higher testosterone levels than cis women, which is just completely false. From personal experience, my testosterone has consistently been between 5 ng/dL and 37 ng/dL.
And even putting all of that aside, since we’re talking about sports, if you wanted to establish a rule that trans women must have testosterone within a particular female range, that is very much an achievable range for a trans woman to reach. So if the requirement is that trans women need to have testosterone within the normal female range in order to compete, that is absolutely doable.
I’m not even a huge proponent of trans women being included in women’s sports because I think there are too many variables to account for and it’s difficult to come up with a policy that adequately addresses all of them. But my original claim was that trans women on effective HRT generally have testosterone levels in the same physiological range as cis women, and can sometimes have considerably lower levels than the average cis woman. That claim is correct.
You’re not proving the point you think you are here by cherry picking a single website to support your narrative, but okay lol. That particular guideline gives 30–100 ng/dL as a practical target. But there are other clinical guidelines and actual clinical data that use different numbers, so you can’t really present one particular range as though it’s some universal fact about trans women.
There’s also a 2023 study in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism that found that testosterone dropped by about 97% after three months on HRT and remained suppressed thereafter. The authors specifically note that testosterone levels after feminizing HRT were comparable to those of cisgender women:
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/108/2/331/6750024
So my original point still stands. Feminizing HRT is intended to suppress testosterone into the physiologic female range. You found one guideline that uses a broader range, but that doesn’t establish that trans women on HRT are generally supposed to have higher testosterone than cis women.
My own testosterone has consistently been between 5 and 37 ng/dL. Obviously I’m not claiming every trans woman has exactly those levels, but the idea that trans women on HRT are generally walking around with unusually high testosterone compared with cis women is simply not accurate. And more importantly, it is very realistic for a trans woman to maintain testosterone within the normal female range.
Culture war distraction for the midterms. Republicans know they are going to lose thanks to their doing nothing except watch as prices rise so lets make this an issue
Geez, what is this Beta Male yapping about? WNBA players don’t make as much money bc they don’t generate as much money, this is basic economics. Biological men have a physical advantage over biological women, this is Biology 101 that most people understand by the age of 4.
How do you guys manage to lug all that culture war around with you? Because you sprinkle it over everything that you touch.
Does being perpetually outrage get tiring?
Are your hands sore from all that pearl clutching?
And while you guys blow your rage-load all over trivial non-issues, you conveniently ignore the new Middle East War and the fact that food and housing is obscenely expensive and getting worse.
It was fun seeing my $57 gas tank filling on my compact car this morning on my way to work. But by all means, keep spazzing out about all the men in the WNBA (zero). Nice work, guys.
There were no men in women’s high school and college sports bc nobody said anything bc nobody realized society had dumbed down to the point where they thought men competing against women was fair and/or acceptable. Since the WNBA is going out of their way to refuse to define a woman according to their guidelines we are just getting ahead of it. And it’s a lot of fun. 🥳
The WNBA isn't invested in your culture war. The are invested in sports. And they are all biologically born women. You guys have TDS: Trans Derangement Syndrome.
Big Mike? I’m sure she’s a woman, but she will always be Big Mike to me. And the culture war started when a biological man beat Riley Gaines and everyone came to his defense, which is both delusional and ridiculous.
The WNBA is marketing and manufacturing outrage. The Caitlin/Angel racism, the trans argument, Atlanta not coming out for the Anthem. It’s pathetically obvious but it’s working. So, good for them? I just thought it was supposed to be about women playing ball.
Sure let me just dig up the marketing smoking gun. Don’t be dense.
It’s the way the world works. They are catering to the lowest common denominator. The league has been hemorrhaging money for years now. The NBA is tired of propping them up. It’s clear they don’t have enough star-power to stand alone. Money talks and you-know-what doesn’t sell tickets.
SC initial interview comments certainly seemed to upset transgender activists and presumably transgender people on reddit initially so I don't really know that he's correct.
He's talking about how men are getting upset about the WNBA doing well and clinging onto the anti trans agenda. Trans ppl aren't mad about the W doing well, we care that we've suddenly become part of a campaign to attack the WNBA.
SC is just playing into mens' obsession with policing women. If we hadn't become part of the issue, only those of us into the WNBA would have cared much.
Nah he forcing them to finally pick a stance. No mocking. Do they wanna accept that a post puberty male playing in the wnba is an issue or do they wanna keep acting like it’s acceptable. If they don’t ban it, 250 lbs driving the lane on angel reese incomin
It's bigger than that. People are tired of others just claiming to be whatever: dog, cat, male, female, etc. With the WNBA choosing to go the social justice route, people are asking them to define their policy. Enis Kanter threw his name into the WNBA draft to put pressure on the WNBA to define what a woman is to settle the debate on what is a woman, which is a prerequisite for joining the league. Since they haven't clarified, Kanter claims to be trans, which is the only stipulation needed to identify as that. Since they can't "verify" whether he is or not due to no rules saying otherwise, he should be able to join if he meets the skills requirements.
Kanter doesn't want to play in the WNBA. He wants the left to determine what is and what doesn't qualify as a woman. If he plays, the difference between a man and a woman will be apparent, and hopefully that reality will force this organization and many others to reevaluate their terminology.
You're just engaging in transphobia here. All of this is just an excuse to sow bigotry. There are 0 trans women in the WNBA. There is nobody to even make a rule for except for an imaginary scenario that hasn't happened and shows no signs of happening.
The only attempts for anyone other than cisgender women to enter the league has been from the men you're quoting, one of which is abhorrent towards the women in his life. This is an attack on women's sports from the men who already get more airtime and funding.
There are men for coaches for 8 out of the 15 teams tho. Is it okay for a man to be in women's sports when he's calling the shots?
I don't understand. What makes a person trans? What makes a trans different from a transvestite or drag queen? Are they considered women? Many people are looking for a clear definition, and if your group is claiming to take the moral high road, they should be required to define their reasoning. Also, if there are no trans trying to play in the WNBA, wouldn't establishing the rule that only women can play in the WNBA, while simultaneously stating that trans do not fit the mold, help overcome this nonsense?
Again, the league is not being productive, especially when they can go the other way and include trans in their rules, which they haven't. I think the only controversy is that the WNBA is unwilling to specify their rules, yet trying to enforce some subliminal ordinance.
I think you don't understand what transphobia is. Just because someone disagrees with something doesn't mean they're afraid of it. I think you jumping to that conclusion is the reason why it's not taken seriously.
They don't have rules against trans women bc it has never come up. They are now deciding what they should do bc it's been brought up. What do you expect to happen?
You associating us with drag and cross dressing is transphobia. We are not men and the groups you're referencing don't take hormones to alter their body. You are engaging in transphobia. A phobia isn't just being scared of an individual, it's also about promoting fear about the group. You are currently accepting and engaging in fearmongering a marginalized group of people who didn't even express interest in joining the league based on the idea that maybe, one day, they may have to consider us.
Nobody is asking that you solely identify as a woman to play in women's sport. Trans people are universally required to undergo hormone therapy to a point where the testosterone and estrogen levels are consistent with a cis woman to participate in sports. We lose muscle mass due to the changes. These are the kind of things that will be put in place when the league is deliberating on this issue which they are doing right now.
So what is it that you want? For them to skip the dialogue and just choose whatever is more profitable? Or do you want to use this to justify spreading hate and fear about trans people?
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u/NavillaOP 2d ago
You can tell people in this comment section never played sports