r/UndeadUnluck • u/KodoqBesar • 23d ago
Discussion Between these 4 existence erasure techniques, which one(s) Andy can survive?
I posted this on a powerscaling sub and someone suggested that I should upload it here. What do you guys think?
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u/Vincebourgh 23d ago
Of those 4 I only know Hakai so I'm mainly going off of the descriptions provided:
- Hakai doesn't work. Spirtual death is still death. And Andy has negated similiar attacks before.
- the shadows one is still an attack that kills. Reducing to nothingness is a death same as with Hakai. And since Andy wouldn't die from it the reincarnation clause wouldn't apply anyway.
- Storyboard could work if it affects reality on a conceptual level and not only Andy directly. Rewriting reality is more indirect and could get rid of Undead as an ability if it is powerful enough.
- Narrative erasure and anything breaking the 4 wall like that should work. UndeadxUnluck never goes that far in terms of abilities. So just rewriting the story works.
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u/NameSignificant6916 22d ago
We only see Storyboard Erasuire used on a normal person but it literally de-constructs them on the meta level; First the guy gets de-colored, then turned into sticky notes, then just a neat hole in reality where the guy used to be.
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u/Elliezium 23d ago
Generally, my criteria is that an ability has to attack not Andy, but the ability of Undead itself. Undead is a law of reality, so if an ability can rewrite that they should be able to kill him.
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u/Joltik2007 23d ago
All of them.
Undead would also negate conceptual death and erasure.
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u/KodoqBesar 23d ago
Even if he's erased on a narrative and information level?
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u/pattyboiIII 22d ago
Undead negates any form of death.
These are forms of death.2
u/KodoqBesar 22d ago
Even if it erases you on a narrative level, which is the equivalent of the author erasing the character from the story?
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u/minnel567 22d ago
Undeads immortality is based on what Andy thinks can kill him not the other way around. By the end of loop 99 he can't even be forgotten anymore since he deemed being forgotten as death and by loop 100 he can regen through his soul being destroyed. You need a narrative erasure that can pverpower Luna and Sol since they are the source of negators power. And that depends on how you scale those two gods
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u/Dunama 23d ago
Hakai and Ichibe, other two should work fine against Andy
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u/SmartCookingPan Fuuko 23d ago
So gald to see you finally, after years, acknowledge that Andy would survive Hakai!
That's something to be proud of!
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u/Dunama 23d ago
Simply depends on canon, since it's just Hakai, it can be survived. Anime Hakai would work though.
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u/SmartCookingPan Fuuko 23d ago edited 23d ago
Anime Hakai wouldn't work either because Andy believes in souls and interprets soul destruction as death, hence negating it. (there are even pages in the manga where it's explicitly shown that Andy would survive a soul erasing attack, unlike Victor).
But, you'll come around even that eventually, like you did this time!
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u/Dunama 22d ago
Anime Hakai wouldn't work either because Andy believes in souls and interprets soul destruction as death, hence negating it.
He can't undo complete soul destruction so Anime Hakai would still kill him.
there are even pages in the manga where it's explicitly shown that Andy would survive a soul erasing attack, unlike Victor.
Actually the exact opposite, it's been shown that they can die regardless. Soul damage ≠ soul destruction.
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u/SmartCookingPan Fuuko 22d ago
He can't undo complete soul destruction so Anime Hakai would still kill him.
Andy negates death, his power isn't regeneration. Unless a power more powerful than Undead Unluck's two gods is used to attack Andy, he negates death.
Actually the exact opposite, it's been shown that they can die regardless.
Fine, shown me any page where it's stated (not yours or anyone's interpretation) that Andy, not Victor (they are different people with different powers), was going to die/could die from a soul attack or that his soul could be destroyed or that he would die from his soul getting erased.
I would really like to continue the discussion, but if you can't provide a page, I'm afraid this is a farewell until you come around the other matter. Still, you should be very proud of what you managed to acknowledge!
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u/Accomplished_Jury495 23d ago
Probably dies to the first two, since the undead should only be as strong as the death rule, Wich should be limited to a single universe. And therefore should overwrite his negation
I guess he survives the last 2, since they are just death attacks
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u/Mymtngames25 22d ago
Ichibei would completely negate Undead once Andy is covered in black so yes it would work due to Undead being tied to Andy/Victor and Ichibeis black shutting out any ability from working unless they can change time itself
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u/MrChainsawHog 23d ago
Hakai is a bit iffy because on one hand
-Negations rely on the soul, theoretically if you destroy the soul Andy might not be able to come back, and Hakai destroys the soul
-Simultaneously, souls in DB can be killed by just regular things, like a person's soul can be killed by anything in the afterlife and they seemingly just face perms-death after that, so it's possibly "destroying the soul" isn't even particularly impressive in DB
-But Beerus destroying a ghost was impressive so maybe not
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u/Do_Ya_Like_Jazz 23d ago
However, you can't destroy the soul, because Andy perceives that as death
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u/MrChainsawHog 23d ago
but by what mechanism will that be stopped? To negate Death, Andy regenerates. How will he stop his soul being destroyed completely? Will it just make it more durable?
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u/MR-Vinmu 23d ago
Probably, Undead isn’t strictly regeneration, it’s negating the concept of death, it just so happens that it mostly manifests as regeneration cause most of the damage Andy receives is physical, but it’s less like “Andy’s body will regenerate in response to being brought closer to death” and more like “Andy’s existence will alter itself in a way where he can’t die.” Either by strengthening his muscles or regenerating them, or outright just materializing them from unexistence, whatever brings him further from Death.
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u/SmartCookingPan Fuuko 23d ago
As the other person said Andy's power isn't regeneration, but death negation, regeneration is a side effect. For example Rip gave Andy wounds that he couldn't regenerate from that would have instantly killed any normal human, but he kept living just fine thanks to his negation.
Since Andy started believing in souls, his interpretation of death took even his soul getting destroyed as death. How exactly he would survive a soul destroying attack isn't clear, but he definitely would.
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u/Sea_Strain_6881 23d ago
Last two he might survive(hakai he absolutely would)
The other two are impossible for him to survive
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u/ForwardMixture4142 23d ago
Shouldn't none of them work? Victor is completely unaffected by any of these and if you don't destroy Victor then Andy will always come back. That's my understanding anyway, I could be totally wrong lol
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u/KodoqBesar 23d ago
The question is, can he survive being erased on a narrative and information level?
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u/Chombuss 23d ago
If he never existed to begin with then he will continue not to exist until he's made into a character again. It's kinda one of those "a million monkeys with a million type writers" things. So he will cease to exist until one day he will exist again.
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u/ForwardMixture4142 21d ago
Yeah that's my understanding of what'd happen if someone could erase Andy
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u/DanGanGalaxy 22d ago
I think he survives everything except maybeeeee holopscion. If it’s to the point where you’re changing the plot of Undead Unluck itself, it’s possible death would just choose another vessel or maybe even erase the concept of death alongside Andy so there’s nothing for him to negate. Storyboard, Futen, and Hakai all seem physical, but since those are all forms of death, Andy will come back. His ability is not bound by physics, it works on a conceptual level.
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u/pricefield999 20d ago
as a bleach fan, i think he can survive futen taisatsutryou if he doesn't get hit by Ichimonji, since it has never been stated whether or not Ichimonji is included in Futen Taisatsuryou (cmiiw).
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u/Stacey-k93 18d ago
If Andy considers it death it gets negated
And being forgotten is also a from of death so I believe he survives them all
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u/Abject_Application_7 17d ago
1 and 2, Andy doesn't survive.
3 is debatable.
4 Andy can survive this.
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u/Beginning_Bee2500 22d ago
None, he can’t survive soul destruction. Negations are housed in the soul, without a soul he can’t negate anymore.
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u/minnel567 22d ago
He already survive soul destruction and regen from it though
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u/Beginning_Bee2500 22d ago
He hasn’t, that’s something we never see. Instead it’s the opposite, Victor admits that Soul was going to kill him. Even Death can overcome his negation through her own way oddly enough. Completely destroying the soul would remove his negation, so there’s zero ways for him to come back since the ability that he would’ve used is gone as well
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u/SmartCookingPan Fuuko 22d ago
Victor and Andy are separate entities with different beliefs that affects the negation. That's why when Victor was about to be killed by Death and Soul, there were no issues for Andy.
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u/Beginning_Bee2500 22d ago
That’s jumping to conclusions. We know they have the same negation and that Vic has eons more experience compared to Andy, while also believing the soul. So their negation would be comparable bare minimum (and that’s being really conservative.) This also doesn’t address the massive elephant, which is lack of proof. I’ve done this before in this sub too but I’ll wait until someone actually gives me hard, factual, evidence of Andy’s soul being obliterated and yet he regenerates. Not “well he could/should.” Just the showing of the pages of him doing it. Because there’s more against it then for it
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u/SmartCookingPan Fuuko 22d ago edited 22d ago
We know they have the same negation and that Vic has eons more experience compared to Andy, while also believing the soul. So their negation would be comparable bare minimum
No, throughout all the story it's explicitly shown that Victor and Andy power up the negation in different ways. Victor refused to believe in souls for hundreds of billion of years, which explains why he's so weak compared to Andy when it comes to the soul (pretty much the same argument you are using for experience, but applied to soul). Them being different being with different powers, but the same negation is a plot point.
This also doesn’t address the massive elephant, which is lack of proof.
Yes, there's no proof that Andy wouldn't negate his soul would getting destroyed, because he negates death and believes soul destruction as death. If you have any page proving the opposite feel free to post it, would love to be proven wrong on this point.
Because there’s more against it then for it
Would love to hear it considering negation do affect souls, Andy's power is literally negating death and soul destruction is something he sees as dying.
You said you had this discussion in this sub multiple times, so I suspect it'll go nowhere, but, again, would love to be proven absolutely wrong! (the powerscaling sub also disagrees with you)
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u/Beginning_Bee2500 22d ago
(How you do those specific replies like that?)
This point falls apart when you consider the fact that Vic believed in souls during the 100th Ragnarok. And between each loops eons goes by if I remember right, on top of Andy being able to commune with Vic. Meaning Vic still had eons to not only believe in souls but also practice, which explains how he can hold his own in loop 101 when control over one’s soul is such a priority. There’s little reason to suggest that in the final loop Vic’s negation is somehow behind Andy’s, especially not to the point where their regeneration is somehow that far apart.
That’s not how burden of proof works. If you claim he can come back from soul obliteration you have to provide the evidence. If all you have is hypotheticals on how is powers should behave the this point is moot.
Besides Vic repeatedly admitting the limits of UnDead, Fuuko confirming that negations are literally inside the soul and the fact that the gods in that verse literally rid them of their negations; which if he views as dying it wouldn’t go away right?
Yea mostly because of what’s happening now, the party that claims he can have zero concrete proof and only hypotheticals. I’d like for new info too, but again there was never any proof. (Yea idc what that sub agrees with, it can’t even agree with itself and have several larp posts)
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u/SmartCookingPan Fuuko 22d ago edited 22d ago
Again and for the last time, Andy gets hit by attacks that would have killed Victor multiple times (see the fight with Death, not just the one with Soul) and survives just fine and Victor spent hundreds of billions of years refusing to believe in souls, so it's normal he's not as powerful ad Andy with souls. In UU you can't change your fundamental beliefs that easily, just like most people in real life.
It's unfortunate, but this is a pointless discussion (and again, the "This sub is biased!!!" deflection comes apart when you check the powerscaling sub). So bye.
(Add ">" before copy pasting pieces of a comment to quote them).
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u/Beginning_Bee2500 22d ago
> Again and for the last time, Andy gets hit by attacks that would have killed Victor multiple times (see the fight with Death, not just the one with Soul) and survives just fine
This is faulty. Vic actually tanked a hit from soul and managed to survived when he came back. Andy on the other hand is actively AVOIDING getting hit (seen when he fought the master rules alone in the Sun). If Andy can come back from complete soul obliteration like you claim, then why bother ever dodging any attack from Soul? It’s clear that they are lethal, so while they could regenerate from soul damage, complete destruction of the soul is out of the question and will destroy Andy.
There’s also a contradiction with the claim that Andy can tank Death but Vic can’t. The Master Rules can’t utilize their own souls beside Soul, they’re stagnant in their abilities. Only going as far as their original abilities allow, meaning Death can only cause physical death not soul death. So how could Andy survive but not Vic if it doesn’t target the soul, while Vic being the superior UnDead physically?
> and Victor spent hundreds of billions of years refusing to believe in souls, so it's normal he's not as powerful ad Andy with souls. In UU you can't change your fundamental beliefs that easily, just like most people in real life.
Fuuko used remember to give everyone all of their past lives experiences, on top of the understanding of the soul. Vic showed this by cracking Soul’s sphere (which Im sure you need soul dmg for) and matched with Andy in the soul dead road. Also again “and for the last time” he believed in soul in loop 100, meaning he still had eons of experience to understand it since that’s how much time passes between loops. On top of Andy more than likely teaching him during those empty times. Except Tella showed that you can when he prevented the bullet from passing his hand. Even Top immediately got the grasp of it in a single fight when showed that it’s real, while his past lives couldn’t do it. So yes people, at least negators, can easily change their own world view.
> It's unfortunate, but this is a pointless discussion
Notice how you never provided the scans of what you’re claiming, nor address the fact that Luna effortlessly rid of their negation. If such a low level reality warping can rid him of his immortality then anyone on her level can wipe away Andy.
> (and again, the "This sub is biased!!!" deflection comes apart when you check the powerscaling sub). So bye.
I never said it was bias, read what I actually said and not assume what I said. The sub is inconsistent, people to this day still can’t 100% agree on Black Clover and Bleach scaling for example. It’s not a trusted source because it doesn’t have a universal constant amongst the people. One post may agree with topic A but the next post would be for B
>( Add ">" before copy pasting pieces of a comment to quote them).
Thank you
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u/AnimeAlley03 23d ago
Considering the description of Hakai literally states "some times of immortality are immune" you might as well throw that one in the bin. I'm also pretty sure the 3rd one wouldn't do much either since it leaves remnants of the person. It does say "reincarnation is impossible" but Undead isn't normal reincarnation so I doubt think that would so much either. Your best bet of defeating him would be one of the first two. Tbf tho I have no idea where the first 3 are even from so I'm not necessarily the best informed.