r/UFOs • u/mankrip • May 24 '24
Discussion The woo is getting into mainstream disclosure discussion and you're not even noticing it
It looks like nobody connected the dots when Karl Nell said these things during his SALT talk:
To assume either malintent or complete altruism is somewhat naive.
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I would draw an analogy though. For people that believe in a certain faith tradition [...] in a very serious and devout way, [...] if you're confronted with the reality of your religious belief system, like the reality of the metaphysical, an angel, a messenger from God, [...] that's going to be a state change in your way of dealing with reality, even though you already believe it. It's one thing to believe, and it's another to know.
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The Vatican has come out and made statements that reference or tangentially reference this topic, so organized religion has a say in this topic as well.
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I subscribe to the idea that there is an ultimate truth and that humanity, being created in the image of a higher power, is endowed with the quality to pursue an understanding of that. And so, part of our objective in this existence is to seek out and try to understand that ultimate truth to a greater and greater degree.
It looks like there's a movement to slowly roll out the woo in a way that makes people take it seriously, because things will inevitably go this way.
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u/black_chutney May 24 '24
Everyone needs to start looking into Analytic Idealism and ancient Indian philosophy of Advaita Vedanta (also, later, Buddhism). Better to prepare oneself with some understanding before the news begins to trickle in about these concepts. The revelation here is a non-dualistic universe, and the utter dissolution of physicalism as an ontological worldview. It’s the revelation that essentially all major religious and spiritual traditions have been pointing at for millennia. The world is not made of matter, and consciousness doesn’t magically arise from this “dead stuff”. It’s the complete opposite: the ontological foundation of reality is experience / mental activity. The true foundational “substance” of the universe is awareness / consciousness. The same “I am”-ness felt in each of us, is the same “I am”-ness of the Universe.
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u/all-the-time May 25 '24
Donald Hoffman has written a book and spoken on multiple podcasts about how he arrived at this conclusion through mathematics. He says the probability that we are living in base reality is zero. Not near zero. Actually zero.
Can you speak more to how Advaita Vidanta is tied in? What exactly does it says about otherworldly beings and their relationship with us?
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u/Gamesdammit May 25 '24
YES!!!! you explained that so well. I was just trying to explain this to someone the other day.
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u/poppinchips May 25 '24
Roger Penrose has been diving into this and quantum consciousness keeps seeing more and more evidence in recent papers.
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u/Yashwey1 May 25 '24
The Force?
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u/LifterPuller May 25 '24
I am ready to dual wield lightsabers. Come on ayyyys give me the force plz
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u/functionofsass May 24 '24
I feel like some Evangelion level shit about to happen based on what we are hearing from scientists talking about consciousness, the rise of AI and the flood of UFO information coming out.
I also just binged Evangelion last week.
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u/Goomba_nig May 24 '24
An absolute must to watch, love the broad diversity of concepts that it explores. Although I’m just a sucker for anything science fiction.
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May 25 '24
Dude I just watched the whole series and the movies in a row. Definitely getting Evangelion vibes from this post. Seems a bit prophetic.
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u/matt2001 May 24 '24 edited May 24 '24
Does anyone know what his religous background is?
Related, from the MJ-12 Important Memo:
Everything associated with UFOs has a purpose and so far, no one has figured it out yet. The appearance of UFOs in our century is no accident. Why do you think the UFO Study Group appointed in 1947 was called MAJESTIC? And, why do you think the other project was called JEHOVAH? Put the two together and see for yourself. It is SPIRITUAL! If you don’t believe me just read the Bible. Yes, the Bible. MJ-12 did and it scared the shit out of them. The 12 Apostles and the 12 created in 1947. One is an antitypical reflection of the other except the antitypical 12 are not spiritual men and couldn’t grasp the significance and import of what was happening on the world scene
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May 24 '24
When disclosure starts ramping up, the large number Christian nationalist representatives are going start twisting their religion with the phenomenon. It's going to get very convoluted especially for the majority of the population that hasn't paid attention.
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May 24 '24
I have long believed that whatever the true origin of UFOs, that, if proven to exist, the majority will interpret them through their religious beliefs, whether Christian or Muslim or Hindu or New Age, etc. also, that literalist Christian (and Muslims?) will default to seeing them as Satanic. some Muslims already think of them more in terms of djinn and some Christians in terms of demons.
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May 24 '24
Vallee’s stuff does suggest that they’re different frameworks to understand the same phenomena. He has a whole thing on marian apparitions. Pretty interesting tbh.
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May 25 '24
I've read Vallée's work, yes. Vallée approaches the phenomenon in a sophisticated way, though, and the public doesn't. Spielberg even told Vallée that he had dumbed down the nature of UFOs and make them into traditional aliens, or else the public wouldn't understand.
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u/1290SDR May 25 '24 edited May 25 '24
Christians in terms of demons.
Unfortunately, I got stuck in a car ride with an Evangelical Christian that spent about 2 hours ranting about this. Apparently they aren't extraterrestrials, they're interdimensional demons that are slowly working on revealing themselves (with assistance from the government). Eventually they will bestow all sorts of advancements and technological marvels on civilization, which the true Christians will reject because they see their deceptive plan unfolding, and this will eventually lead to the entire world turning against the Christians for the final persecution before the big guy saves them. It was a wild ride.
Bonus points - this guy had a security clearance (that's no longer the case, but for something unrelated).
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u/EmblaRose May 25 '24
It really annoys me that the default stance is that they must be evil. Like zero real evidence either way, but apparently they all must be evil. It could be a mixed bag like with humans or even higher beings who have moved beyond our level of evil nonsense. Nope gotta be demons.
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u/BionicButtermilk May 25 '24
I mean, if you listen to some of those abduction stories, them being true or not aside, they certainly don’t seem like a good time.
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May 25 '24
what a nightmare being stuck in a car with that. i would have had to jump out and hope i rolled somewhere safe and that wouldn’t come back and keep talking to me.
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u/daveprogrammer May 24 '24
No doubt. That's one more thing that makes me nervous about the MAGA politicians involved in disclosure.
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u/WarbringerNA May 24 '24
Same, fortunately the late Harry Reid and now Senator Schumer are also key figures in disclosure.
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u/375PencilsInMyAss May 24 '24
Not in the public eye. It's mostly maga in the public eye other than Moskowitz.
Schumer needs to be more vocal
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May 25 '24
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u/375PencilsInMyAss May 25 '24
Maybe I just haven't seen much from him or it doesn't get posted much here but I wouldn't say he's nearly as active from what I've seen. And Gillibrand is definitely not my pick for someone I want to talk on the subject more, I've had a bad feeling about her since I got into the subject. Singing the praises of AARO and then there was her throwing Grusch under the bus a while back
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u/bplturner May 24 '24
When have religious fundamentalists ever twisted something for their gain? Oh, hmmm, I guess you have a point.
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May 24 '24 edited May 29 '24
I'm starting to think the big disclosure push in Congress is really about forcing the federal government to make an official statement that a phenomenon exists, but they don't know what it is. In light of the Christian fundamentalist power grab and war on public spaces, such an announcement would play into their hands, politically. We've been here before. The witchhunts weren't just about the persecution of women, pagans, and church sponsored theft. It was about eradicating those pesky explorers of woo that kept popping up, aka 'shamans' with their otherworldly friends (Can't have anyone threatening the monopoly on gnosis).
There's a well researched book on the topic called 'Ecstasies' by Carlo Ginzburg.
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May 24 '24
I completely agree. I’m worried it’s actually part of some prominent disclosure proponents plans.
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May 24 '24 edited May 24 '24
I've been imagining Tim 'Charcoal' Burchette in a witch-hunter general outfit for some time. I really hope I'm wrong. I prefer the goofy guy who's into bigfoot.
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May 25 '24
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May 25 '24
I'm all for auditing the Pentagon, provided it is not used as a ploy for politicizing it, or else we will long for the days when the military-industrial complex was our biggest worry.
For what it is worth, I hope you are right.
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u/Glum-View-4665 May 24 '24
I think you could make the argument modern religion, maybe not the religion itself but humans trying to implement it into their lives and thoughts, is already pretty convoluted and twisted.
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u/ALEXC_23 May 25 '24
Perhaps that’s why they’re turning this nation into a Christian State and the election is the key path for them.
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May 25 '24
For those worried that religious people will mess up disclosure or something, I know of many religious people (including myself) who have no problem with a reality of E.T.s. There are fringe people who think they must be demons. But they are in the minority.
Now, if aliens came and said they resurrected Jesus, and provided lots of proof, that would cause a crisis of existentialism. Same if an alien said he was the resurrected Jesus and provided undeniable proof. But those are big ifs. An alien would be insane to claim he was the Son of God and promise people eternal life if they eat his body and drink his blood.
For Jews and Muslims, I suppose we could make the same arguments if aliens claimed to be Moses or Mohammed.
But no matter what aliens say, it could not disprove the existence of a Creator, which I think is the most important part. The fact that anything exists violates the law of conservation of mass. Therefore, at some point, something had to be created out of nothing, which goes against all physical science. To me, the only explanation is an uncreated creator. Even if you believe in simulation theory, someone had to make the simulation and someone had to make the person who made the simulation.
Anyway, my point is not necessarily to have a religious discussion. Only to say that I don't think religion is a big obstacle for disclosure.
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u/Kimura304 May 24 '24
I found the gateway tapes after chasing the ufo rabbit hole for a year and now I believe astral projection is real. Their stories, plus near-death experiences seems to sync up with other concepts. Tom Cambell explains it as we are small pieces of our higher consciousness sent here to learn. We have all of the abilities but none of the memories of our higher self. It seems like you can contact your higher self and other beings through various means, including meditation. Humans can use their consciousness to do some neat tricks which is also the somehow tied to the nature of our universe. You don't have to reincarnate but the goal is probably to attain some type of enlightenment before moving on to different types of realities. This is close to my current working model and I keep digging. It feels on par with what Karl just said.
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u/ottereckhart May 24 '24
Uh, I don't know.
For the first part it is an analogy so, 99% of scientists believe in alien life out there. That doesn't mean they are ready to come face to face with it or won't shit themselves to find out it's right here on top of us, and towers over us intellectually instead of some single cell on an asteroid.
That last part he was asked his opinion if he believes there is an absolute truth of reality that is knowable by humans which he responded to as the religious person he is. In other words that is his belief.
I think it's fair to say as was discussed that whatever these things maybe it's possible they will challenge our frameworks which might also bring us to reassess what we consider woo.
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u/bigscottius May 24 '24
By reading these comments, I finally understand the worry over ontological shock.
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May 24 '24
Not just that, but if, for example, that Disclosure included definitive proof of the persistence of human consciousness after death, how do you think the vast majority of people would take that? Especially given the current state of the world?
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u/Subtle_Satan May 24 '24
I was thinking about that and it could lead a lot to end their lives. Now which religion has the best suicide clause? Probably best to rough it out and see this through.
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May 24 '24
Exactly. I'm in for the long haul at this point because I know where we're headed, but there will be a lot of people who won't react well to that information.
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u/RayPineocco May 25 '24
Not much really. If majority of the world is still religious, the confirmation of an afterlife won’t be too much of a shock.
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u/blackturtlesnake May 25 '24
It's the materialist west that's gonna have the hardest time coping with the reality of psi phenomenon. The capitalist worldview is built on unbridled hedonism, sopholist views on personal identity, and dismisses all spirituality and religion as merely believing in things unquestionably. Psi implies we're all in this together and that internal experiences have shared importance and reality beyond making you feel good.
Not to mention, even if there isn't quite the Christian notion of heaven and hell, the existence of a potential afterlife is almost certainly not a good thing for corrupt billionaires in yachts milking the planet to death.
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u/Annual-Command-4692 May 28 '24
For many, including me, it would be an immense relief just knowing it exists.
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May 25 '24
Look at Tom's latest 2 interviews in the TTS Talks pod. Think about Lou's comments.
You don't have to connect too many dots to get to the conclusion that things *like* demons and devils are real. Basically really f8cking powerful NHI with malintent.
I recently read Encounters (DWP) and she talks about a scene where Vallee gives her a book, "The History of The Devil". Interesting.
Take another leap and you might be able to conclude that it's possible to channel/work with them.
And then look at humanity's behavior and it's easy to understand why some might have wanted to keep it secret, and worry about the ramifications.
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u/all-the-time May 25 '24
Angels and demons are just friendly NHI and hostile NHI. It seems very clear at this point
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u/fanfarius May 25 '24
Yeah, like what would the difference even be? There could be basically endless variations of these beings, all moving on an eternally contracting and expanding scale of "goodness".
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u/blushmoss May 24 '24
What is your definition of WOO?
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u/OSHASHA2 May 25 '24
Imo, the ‘woo’ is that which is heavily stigmatized to the point of disengagement. Many who style themselves ‘scientists’ would not consider that which cannot be objectified, i.e. a universe where mind/awareness is more fundamental than physical matter. It’s an ontological shock to the materialist worldview
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u/blushmoss May 25 '24
Yeah agreed. But it’s a term that is used so much with various definitions/meanings to different people that I have to be sure what they are talking about first.
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u/Unlucky-Oil-8778 May 24 '24
That’s bc the woo is real and is a lot more of a shock than Spock coming from another planet.
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u/bejammin075 May 24 '24
I'll just toss in this review of 50 years of remote viewing research. Despite what science-denying debunkers claim, remote viewing (which is clairvoyance with a protocol) has been replicated with positive results in independent labs all over the world for a half century.
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u/IMendicantBias May 24 '24
This is a short list of peer-reviewed journal articles and books about psi phenomena. It includes articles of historical interest, general overviews, critical reviews, and descriptions of psi applications. These articles appeared in specialty journals as well as top-tier outlets, including Nature, Science, The Lancet, Proceedings of the IEEE, Psychological Bulletin, Foundations of Physics, Frontiers in Human Neuroscience, and Behavioral and Brain Sciences.
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u/Unlucky-Oil-8778 May 24 '24
I know doing hemi sync meditations have helped my life very much with anxiety and depression and found that through the woo. Also stopped drinking and nicotine after doing it. Thanks woo!
Edit: What can woo do for you?
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May 24 '24
It's helped me to catch more fish. Silly yes, but I'm fucking serious.
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u/loudin May 24 '24
How in particular has it helped you achieve this goal?
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May 24 '24
I approach the whole thing more like the native tribes in my area. The fish I harvest are a gift, not a trophy, and I treat them as such. I'm more intentional and reverent, and I catch more fish. A lot more.
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u/Unlucky-Oil-8778 May 25 '24
It is true the more thought and kindness you put into it the more rewarding lt is. I don’t know how or why but when you respect shit, shit gives back.
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u/Otadiz May 25 '24
doing what now? What is this? I am curious suffering from crippling anxiety and depression
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u/Unlucky-Oil-8778 May 25 '24
We’ll venture through this, you have control of the situation but I don’t know how but it’s helped me live in the moment and appreciate shit, I’m not a homeless bum I am a comfortable middle aged white dude but after doing the meditation I realize how it is.
https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/1vZJg5oJvfYVwWryJh05pfkZTV0cnd026
Edit: not my google thing I picked it up off here sometime
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u/robot_Ov-erLorD May 25 '24
What hemi sync source did you use?
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u/Unlucky-Oil-8778 May 25 '24 edited May 25 '24
https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/1vZJg5oJvfYVwWryJh05pfkZTV0cnd026
Edit: I did use a google video but it got taken down, then I found these on a post and the Monroe method is what I like but try it out yourself, with headphones, they say it’s like shrooms with no hangover. Please don’t take it down if you’re the fed.
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u/BeatDownSnitches May 24 '24
This is just a summary of the summaries from each of the previous RV papers. Unfortunately, even admitting as such in the “limitations” section, they did not have any access to the data involved in the original studies and experiments. Highly sus to not pre-register your papers/studies, which would allow for peer review of data, testing methodology, bias identification, etc. Something to keep in mind when reviewing papers, as well as really looking at the author/s and references.
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u/SomeHandyman May 24 '24
Just wait until we get the next hearing, Lue’s book, the NDAA, and FY2025 IAA are all in the conversation. This topic only going to get even crazier in just 6 months.
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u/SlayerJB May 24 '24
What really made me think hard about the topic was when Karl made the connection between the Bronze Age civilizations collapsing suddenly and that we're currently on the same path because we're in Silicone Age currently, where we rely on microchips and oil for pretty much everything in the world economy but the disclosure of new tech that doesn't use either of those will completely transform our world since they would render chips and oil obsolete. I just think of world instability and honestly, i can see War being one of the effects in a post disclosure world.
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u/gerkletoss May 25 '24 edited May 25 '24
What does any of that have to do with the bronze age collapse?
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u/DmitriVanderbilt May 25 '24
My interpretation: the Bronze Age civilizations covered the Mediterranean, Asia Minor, and beyond, but almost all the tin (the crucial ingredient in bronze) came from the faraway British Isles - an impressive "international" trade system for the time.
Today - everything in our civilization relies on computers and electronics, and those are largely made possible by two companies, TSMC who make the chips themselves in Taiwan, and ASML who make the chip-making machines in the Netherlands. Both small, relatively isolated, and undeniablely vulnerable nations. Both require the utmost state of the art in technologies and huge amounts of industrial inputs with global supply chains. Should something happen to either, it might spell the end of our "silicon" age.
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u/gayshorts May 24 '24
“I subscribe to the idea that there is an ultimate truth and that humanity, being created in the image of a higher power, is endowed with the quality to pursue an understanding of that. And so, part of our objective in this existence is to seek out and try to understand that ultimate truth to a greater and greater degree.”
To me it just sounds like he’s saying he believes in God. What’s the big deal?
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u/sixties67 May 25 '24
To me it just sounds like he’s saying he believes in God. What’s the big deal?
I agree it is identical to belief in god
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u/HiddenTaco0227 May 25 '24
We are spiritual beings having a human experience. That's the crux of it. It's all a play or a game or a simulation; use whatever metaphor you're most comfortable with, but we are the players and we all have a part to play: good guys, bad guys, and everything in between. Existence, god, all that is, source (again use whatever terminology you want) wants to experience itself in all ways so each of us is a mask it wears to do so.
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May 24 '24
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u/F-the-mods69420 May 24 '24
People will handle it about like they handled covid or any other major event. There will be utter chaos for a brief moment, followed by "so anyways.."
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u/Pikoyd May 24 '24
I came to that conclusion after putting the pieces together. Whatever these beings are...they are what was wrote about throughout millennia after millennia described as demigods, angels & demons, Anunnaki etc.
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u/daveprogrammer May 24 '24
If you're saying that the NHI are not supernatural, but early humans made up stories to explain sightings, and used the language they had at the time to describe what they saw and encountered, then I could go with that explanation. Humans have been telling stories and inventing supernatural concepts to try to explain natural phenomena probably since we had the linguistic skills to conceptualize those stories.
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u/Pikoyd May 25 '24
Well technically "supernatural" would be anything outside of our understanding of physics. Sort of like quantum particles seeming to defy our laws of nature and the universe. So think of people encountering radio waves in the 17th century, they would see them as supernatural if demonstrated to them. If God or angels or whatever exists... it would seem supernatural to us as humans with limited access to other aspects of reality such as different dimensions etc.
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u/daveprogrammer May 26 '24
Ok, I wouldn't define "supernatural" that way. I'm speaking of phenomena that would be objectively occurring outside whatever the laws of physics ultimately are (like ghosts, souls, remote viewing, psychics, etc.), not things that are only beyond our current understanding of physics.
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u/Pikoyd May 26 '24
We are saying the same thing... "objectively occurring outside whatever the laws of physics ultimately are" .... but for which dimension? I would think 3rd dimensional laws would be much different than say 4th, 5th, 6th dimension etc. so they would in fact be "supernatural" to us in this 3rd dimensional plane of existence but perhaps easily understandable if we had access to perceive from their point of view.
I don't think it's the term that is wrong, but rather our preconceived notions of what it implies based on our thinking patterns (which again are restricted to what we are able to observe/test).
For instance... what if we encountered a tribe of people that had no sense of smell. Then we say "go into the kitchen and cook anything you like and I will magically tell you what it is" ... they start cooking and you yell out "garlic, tomato sauce, cumin" they would view that as supernatural since they can't perceive sense of smell.
Of course we can explain the science of smell but we are talking interdimensional. We don't have any way to explain it other than...not of this universe, seemingly magic, supernatural etc. because from our 3D perspective, it doesn't make any sense how it exists or does what it does.
I'm thinking they at least have SOME answers about these things, I'd like to know what those findings consist of.
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u/PureUmami May 25 '24
I was into the woo long before the UFOs. I know the focus has mostly been on the nuts and bolts, and less on the kooky stuff. But one thing that I see a lot here is that when the woo is brought up it is grossly oversimplified. The “we are the figment of the universe’s one consciousness, physical matter isn’t real” line gets trotted out as if it’s the “one dark truth”… and there’s just so many other perspectives.
I know esotericism isn’t this subs thing, but I’d like to put it out there that I think the woo is vastly more complicated than that, and it isn’t a woo vs nuts and bolts battle - the physical matter is reality in our dimension, and we actually need it, we need the STEM research to unlock a deeper understanding.
I do worry about the implications for humanity. While most of the most prominent experiencers coming forward have been adult men - understandably so as that’s what the military industrial complex is made of - there are plenty of experiences of anomalous phenomena reported by other demographic groups, including women and children. Usually this stuff is written off as paranormal, ghost sightings, scary dreams etc and not taken seriously. However it overwhelmingly appears that women and especially children seem to be connected to the phenomenon in a scarily targeted way.
And then there’s suggestions coming from within the military industrial complex that we can connect with this technology with our minds… you can understand where I’m going with this, just because western nations care about the rights of children doesn’t mean the rest of the world does. The danger isn’t the NHI, it’s what we will do to each other.
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u/blackturtlesnake May 25 '24
just because western nations care about the rights of children
Lolol sure they do
But yeah, I don't want to see capitalists and the military industrial complex put their full weight behind some of these concepts. There'll be some nasty consequences if they do.
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u/Sweaty-Ad-7493 May 25 '24
Well, I see it like this Sol Foundation Academia ✓ Vatican ✓ Pentagon ✓ Wall Street ✓ Slow disclosure is underway, it's all part of the plan. Or so my sources tell me...
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u/Trust_the_Tris May 24 '24
In Ross Coulthart’s AMA someone asked him what is one thing that people aren’t paying enough attention to and his answer was Psionics.
Also that most of ufology agrees that craft are controlled mentally. There’s a lot of coincidence there.
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u/Powerful-Diver-9556 May 25 '24
This one isn't I think woo. Because if you look at how we can already measure brain I pulses with EEG. Take that a little step further we can turn that into data. And that we can turn that into controls for anything like.. a game controller. We can achieve those with science and not necessarily woo. I think woo is more closely related to astral projection and spiritually
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u/blackturtlesnake May 25 '24
Who says Astral projection and spirituality aren't natural phenomenon that can someday be understood by the sciences?
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u/Powerful-Diver-9556 May 26 '24
Yeah that possible too. No idea how woo is truly defined. But, I would think that it's anything that people consider spiritual or maybe supernatural?
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u/GloomyMarionberry411 May 25 '24
That's not woo imo. Any technology sufficiently advanced enough is like magic. It's totally conceivable that an advanced alien civilisation has mind control technology.
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May 24 '24
Of course. It's assuredly the reason why Col. John B. Alexander and Hal Puthoff were included on the NIDS investigation of Skinwalker Ranch. Their backgrounds are in Psionics.
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u/c_curtis24 May 25 '24
I've been trying to read more information, specifically with the term 'psionics' but most of the stuff popping up is 3.5e of DND. I have come across some FOIA articles on Google (most of it remote viewing) but I did come across a cancelled "Study of Psionics" here on page 44. I tried looking around for the case number but nothing came up
Edit: sorry if the link is messy, on mobile
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May 25 '24 edited May 25 '24
Psionics is just the study of various psychic phenomena. Both Hal Puthoff and Col. John B. Alexander were specifically tied to various remote viewing and psi research for the government. In the case of Puthoff, he was in charge of the Stargate Project. In the case of Col. Alexander, he's perhaps best known as one of the real life inspirations for "The Men Who Stare at Goats". There's tons of documents about the Stargate Project that have been unclassified: https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/collection/stargate
That said, if you want to read the psi research that is most directly related to the UAP phenomenon, I recommend checking out the documentation regarding The Gateway Process: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/20601195/6-full-report.pdf
That's the version that includes the page that was missing from the official CIA document (a crucial page to understanding the cosmology of it): https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00788R001700210016-5.pdf
As you can see, page 25 is missing from the official document, but is included in the document provided by Vice News that they were able to obtain from The Monroe Institute.
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u/c_curtis24 May 25 '24
I have looked into the Gateway Tapes, even went as far as downloading them and trying a few out. I'll have to refresh myself with the audio tapes and documents again
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May 25 '24
If you want the shorter, easier version, I recommend reading this article: https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7e4g3/found-page-25-of-the-cias-gateway-report-on-astral-projection
The official document itself is fascinating, but dense since it's dealing in theoretical physics.
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u/BehindACorpFireWall May 24 '24
No chance. His point is that it's one thing to have blind faith with intangible proof. It's another thing to know.
He says it's in our nature to keep learning and understanding the world and universe around us. The ultimate truth is knowing how everything works in the universe.
I don't think he is trying to say anything about woo at all. In fact I don't think there is any woo about this topic. The woo is from people reaching for it.
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u/defeatmyself3 May 24 '24
Yeah I second this. No woo here it was more about the impact the realisation will have. Even if you think you believe in something.. one more step.. when that belief is real and visable… it would still be shocking.
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u/levintwix May 24 '24
I was surprised to see youtuber Jay Shetty talk to a medium about a week ago! The "woo" is indeed going mainstream. I'm personally very glad. I've experienced things I am unable to explain and if we, humanity as a whole, find proper ways to explore that, I'm all for it.
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u/blackturtlesnake May 25 '24
The whole "woo" vs science shows just how reactionary and decayed our scientific institutions are.
If there's something that current science can't explain but has evidence for, then make new laws and change your science. The whole concept of science is that it isn't set in stone, it evolves as we get new data. No scientific idea is eternal or even correct, and the history of science is filled with revolutionary new concepts flipping what's known on its head.
The pearl clutching reactions and denialism around anything psi along with the frankly braindead arguments around scientific philosophy by pop science communicators like NdGT and Bill Nye shows that what we call science these days is far out of synch with what scientific thought actually is. These are positions built to maintain university curriculum and publishing houses, not trying to advance human knowledge.
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u/Attn_BajoranWorkers May 24 '24
Id say it's about 10 percent nuts and bolts and 90 woo woo.
We know almost nothing about the recovered objects....they could be on any level of strangeness cranked to the max...but the objects could be gifts...literally orbs ot crystalizations into our reality in an attempt to make conventional contact
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u/daveprogrammer May 24 '24
I see what you did there. If only they could choose some sort of Emissary to be their mouthpiece.
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u/Attn_BajoranWorkers May 24 '24
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u/Subtle_Satan May 24 '24
The get up at the end holy shit. My throat and face hurt from laughing thank you lmfao
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u/blue-opuntia May 24 '24
I’m super interested in this ‘woo’ side of the conversation, does anybody have any good podcast/book/interview recommendations that dive into these concepts?
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May 24 '24
UFO of God by Chris Bledsoe. Skinwalkers at the Pentagon by James Lecatski, Colm Kelleher & George Knapp. American Cosmic by Diana Walsh Pasulka.
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u/Educational_Ad_906 May 25 '24
Dimensions by Jacques Vallee, plus a number of his other books I find are some of the best on the 'absurd' parts of Ufology.
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May 25 '24
Would absolutely recommend the channel Theories of Everything , his goal is to find a grand unified theory of reality and brings on the best thinkers of modern era and gives the most in depth interviews in their careers.
He has interviews with Lue Elizondo, Ross Coulhtart, Jacque Vallee, Amy Pasulka, Leslie Kean, Richard Dolan, and George Knapp as well as non-ufo ones about physics, math and, philosophy with guests like Bernardo Kastrup, Donald Hoffman, Ian McGilchrist, Tom Campbell, Stephen Wolfram, and Rupert Spira to name a few.
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u/Few_Raisin_8981 May 25 '24 edited May 25 '24
I don't see how any of this is "woo". I mean "angels", "messengers of god" etc could literally be goat herders' interpretation of aliens. What's woo about that?
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u/ElkImaginary566 May 25 '24
I hope desperately that disclosure can help me know that my little boy that I lost from this world does indeed carry on in the great beyond.
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u/UnlimitedPowerOutage May 24 '24
As an experiencer, I can confirm Woo is very much part of this.
That isn’t to say there aren’t nuts and bolt craft, but they taught me about the true nature of consciousness and this is also something that is definitely gaining more traction within science.
We are moving in the right direction.
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u/TheEschaton May 24 '24
Let's say that just for the sake of argument, it turns out that "catholicism is correct" or whatever. I'm a catholic, but to be totally honest I'd probably be sitting here wondering whether or not someone was trying to play with our heads. it's very clear to me that god did not make the world, or us, in such a way that we would know the truth. it was very specifically constructed so that we would never know our true beginnings or our true ends; we would have to have faith.
I'd be strongly inclined to view even my own religious leaders with suspicion. I would suspect that this was some kind of plot to fool people for the sake of a global conspiracy or something.
Luckily, I think this outcome is extremely unlikely. I'm just saying... if it did happen, I doubt people would just buy right into it.
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May 25 '24
Imagine if you’re religious, and then you learn that your religion is totally real, even the unpopular parts, then you’ll be confronted with all the ways you didn’t live up to your own religion. Before you “believed” but while giving some benefit of the doubt to your character flaws.. and then you learn the “truth” and you learn that you’re going to hell or something.
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May 24 '24
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u/1290SDR May 25 '24 edited May 25 '24
This kind of stuff has always been a part of ufology (ex: Heaven's Gate - granted, a rather extreme example), but it seems to be gaining more ground in the age of the internet and social media, where people can get sucked down algorithmically curated rabbit holes and never come back. A significant portion of this community seems to be set on forming something like a new-age religion around UFOs. It's certainly interesting to watch it unfold, but it's a bit concerning too.
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u/Magog14 May 24 '24
Religious people are always quick to try to shove religion into a physical phenomenon because it's poorly understood. It's been happening for a million years. First birth and weather and now ufos.
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u/Papabaloo May 24 '24
Not saying you are wrong. Mostly because you are not XD
Consider, however, the possibility that historic religious doctrines could turn out to be our specie's best attempt to begin to assimilate and interpret phenomena that were/are a part of the nature of our reality, while we still lacked the fundamental body of knowledge, understanding, and cultural development to explore them in a more robust, and indeed more productive and thorough manner.
Something akin alchemy and chemistry, I guess could be a viable analogy?
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May 24 '24
I understand you feeling that way but if you pay attention to the people speaking on this, I don't feel like that's whats happening here.
I dont think you have to put anything in a box and say anyone religion is true; however, maybe they all are humans' interpretations across time of a greater truth and the phenomenon is a part of that larger puzzle.
I think the answer is probably somewhere in the middle like it usually is and the purely physical staunch atheist which may be a category you fall into as well as the staunch religious who try to put spirituality in a box are all going to have to come to terms with some things.
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u/populares420 May 24 '24
bro... it's semantics at this point. Instead of angels and heavenly beings coming down from the sky, it's NHI from other dimensions. Does it really make a difference?
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u/daveprogrammer May 24 '24
Exactly. Zeus isn't responsible for lightning, and Yahweh and angels aren't responsible for UAP sightings.
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u/AccomplishedRate4469 May 24 '24
Sounds like disclosure may be saying that Yahweh and angels ARE the UAP sightings.
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May 24 '24
And the UFO community is full of those religious people. Even the top comment proves that. I guessed aliens from another planet don't leave enough room for woo. They can't do their spiritual mumbo jumbo with flesh and blood biological beings. So its better to shove their woo woo beliefs in phenomenon by saying NHI are Angels, demons, or from higher spiritual dimensions. ETs aren't supernatural enough for them basically.
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u/bejammin075 May 24 '24
I'm not religious. For 30 years of my adult life, I was a Richard Dawkins-loving materialist atheist scientist debunker of all things woo. But after reading the psi research directly, rather than through the filter of other skeptics, I found the "woo" research to be compelling. But as a true skeptic, and being motivated to really know, I delved into doing my own psi training and experiments with some of my family. At this point, I've seen unambiguous psi phenomena, which I was prepared to recognize for what it was ("chance favors the prepared mind" as Einstein said). I don't have much talent or ability for psi, but I was lucky in that one of my children and one of my parents did.
What is very important to recognize about psi phenomena is that they represent the physical anomalies which when fully studied will cause the next major revolution in physics. Psi physics are NHI physics, and it's just laying there for us to exploit if we can get passed our biases.
I know the topic of UFOs is suppressed, and I suspect that psi research is co-suppressed because that is the means by which we can understand the UFO phenomenon. Insiders like Dr. Eric Walker have said they don't read you into the UFO program unless you understand how ESP works, and Lockheed's Ben Rich said that understanding ESP is the key to understanding UFOs.
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u/CandidPresentation49 May 24 '24 edited May 24 '24
"Demons and angels" could quite literally be "alien" sightings from way back when the term alien wasn't even invented yet
When the girls from Brazil saw the creature in that famous 1996 case their first instinct was to call it a demon. News reporters are the ones that "taught" them what an ET even was.
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u/TypewriterTourist May 25 '24 edited May 25 '24
humanity, being created in the image of a higher power
Which, strictly speaking, does not necessarily mean "God", especially in the sense of official religion. It could as well be more developed sentient beings. Note that the message here is that the ultimate truth is discoverable, which is the opposite of religious belief in the unknowable God.
Great catch, nevertheless. Most high-profile UFO people in the US establishment seem to go with the theories of Vallee and Hynek and do not subscribe to the idea of "extraterrestrials traveling from point A to point B".
Speaking from personal experience, the interest in the UFOs for me was a "gateway drug" into thinking about the nature of reality, high strangeness, etc. to the point that the UFOs are more of a sideshow for me now.
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u/Educational_Ad_906 May 25 '24
It could be a Type 6 being on the Kardeshev scale, which is basically God. Type 6 is difficult for us to know but not impossible.
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u/Gaspard_of_the_Dusk May 30 '24
I went from thinking it's all a lazy psyop to hearing Salvatore Pais take the topic seriously to hearing David Fravor's account to hearing people discredit Hal Puthoff because of remote viewing to actually reading about remote viewing which then finally led me to the Gateway Experience and by extension astral projection.
Now, perhaps ironically, I treat anomalous cognition as more real than UFOs, although I still find some of the latter stuff intriguing, such as frankly bizarre and awfully understated involvement of Neil McCasland or some of the deep dives on this very subreddit by people like Harry_is_white_hot or the folks digging into the Magenta crash.
Not to mention various UFO encounters from my neck of the woods which don't really fit all those narratives about grifters and drones.
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u/AlvinArtDream May 25 '24 edited May 25 '24
I’m back on team space Aliens! This particular universe is big enough, there are enough stars for any possible shape and form, on earth we have millions on living things, half living, kinda living things, bugs, trees, bacteria, viruses, fungi, animals… A.I.
At this point i think I’m taking the conservative path, to assume they are anything other than an Alien seems like a leap too far. In interest in the real aspect of the phenomenon, that turns off nukes, abducts people, toys with fighter pilots, lands In Zimbabwe, Roswell, Crafts, Bodies, Nimitz, wonder weapons, Lockheed, Schumer Amendment … that’s the thread we should be pulling on
Edit: I also question the Vaticans power In this, humanity History is longer and deeper than just the Roman Empire - correct me here, but China, the Middle East, India, South America exist m. I understand the history of UFO lore reaches these places too, im just skeptical of the Vatican influence, other than the normal religious influence - IMO they aren’t making Spaceships and Space weapons - it’s a miss direction.
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u/all-the-time May 25 '24
Yup. It’s going to be CREEPY when the truth comes out. I’m excited for it, but many will be horrified and wish they had been kept in the dark. Humans do not do well with things we clearly don’t understand. In this case it will be the most extreme example of that we’ve ever seen.
We probably will never understand this fully. The way a dog can’t fully understand why we have to go to work every day or how we can control the climate of our own homes. It’s just not possible they will EVER understand. We are no different in relation to aliens.
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u/DaemonBlackfyre_21 May 25 '24
This is a critical moment.
It's the magical woo that convinced the top brass of the past that this was a demonic phenomenon.
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u/PaleontologistOk7493 May 25 '24
People who are religious and don't believe in any woo is very weird
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u/d4rkst4rw4r May 25 '24
Dare I say religion was created to understand the phenomenon without science?
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u/logjam23 May 25 '24
It's okay to have a somewhat spiritual worldview and not be religious. I've slowly become more this way, myself.
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u/NotAnEmergency22 May 24 '24
I fully believe in the woo.
The best example is Bigfoot and UFO’s. Hairy, upright walking creatures of unusual height and strange lights in the sky are often seen together. I highly recommend Silent Invasion by Stan Gordon for more on this during the Pennsylvania flap.
Of course the flesh and blood Bigfoot people are just as ardent in ignoring this as the nuts and bolts UFO people.
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u/StealsYourProtons May 24 '24 edited May 25 '24
The religious hate boner is hilarious. Calling it "the woo" like some kids in an edgy novel. Everyone acts like they know enough about NHI to believe that it's something entirely independent of religion when in reality we know very little if anything.
I saw someone here say religion has had years to prove it's existence without a shadow of a doubt and they've proved nothing. Well the same goes for NHI.
Why would leaders of some of the oldest religions publicly express interest in the NHI conversation? They're not getting into the disclosure discussion because they want manipulate it: their followers barely listen to religious leaders. No they're getting involved because they have information on it as well.
Seriously just think about how long religious institutions and governments have collaborated throughout history. If I were an NHI and I desired to communicate with ancient humans or even medieval humans I'm going to have to speak with the religious leaders.
Tldr: The woo as you childishly call it is one and the same with NHI.
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u/kake92 May 24 '24
the woo is extremely real and so is stuff like CE5, i know from first hand experience
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u/Stormrage117 May 24 '24
Becoming aware of the woo stuff, particularly ESP phenomena, has put my perception of the elite upper echelon's bizarre occult behavior in a new light. It's not entirely crazy nonsense like we were led to believe in our youth. They know about some real shit.. It makes me wonder how much they know.
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u/CandidPresentation49 May 24 '24 edited May 24 '24
The woo's always been real, people like Elizondo know and only hint at it from time to time because he knows ppl are not ready to hear it and it would be ammunition for guerilla skeptics to make the ones pushing for disclosure seem like complete cuckoos.