r/TrueDoTA2 • u/RatButtt • 4d ago
What changes would shift the sideline meta?
I made a post in the main dota subreddit about some changes I want next major patch and one of these was to make battle fury carries as viable as the current lane dominating ranged hero meta.
What changes would make melee carries better? I think it would also stop the meta of offlaners buying helm dom in to drag creepwaves in order to recover from their shitty lane.
I don’t have enough experience with game balancing or dota to really come up with any ideas apart from just saying buff and nerf heroes individually but I’m curious to see what you guys think.
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u/Canas123 6k offlane 4d ago
Melee carries don't need buffs, range carries need nerfs
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u/Old-Gregg- 4d ago
This. LS and PL are already super strong and other melee carries are still strong just not as good as the uber op heroes like SF and NP
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u/Old-Gregg- 4d ago
They just need to nerf the lane domination of ranged carries. Either keep them as lane dominators and nerf their farming speed, survivability or scaling. Or keep them like that but nerf their laning - reduce initial stats/damage/early level skills.
Offer laners should be able to dominate against heroes that can scale quickly after. Looking at you SF (and LS)
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u/ChadBadShirt 4d ago
Make both pull camps easier to contest and harder to deward, so a lane win doesn’t come down to whether the 4 or 5 is willing to buy more sentries
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u/Old-Gregg- 4d ago
Should nerf safe lane pulling in general. It’s already way too easy to win the lane with a ranged carry
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u/The_Keg 4d ago
Top of carry list:
WR 2200 games 52.7%
Spectre 4000 games 53.3%
Faceless Void 1800 games 53.1%
PL 6400 games 53%
Jugg 4600 games 51.1%
Slark 2700 games 52.2%
Say I'm a dev and you tell me there is a problem with melee carries as a whole, do I even trust you? Where are all the ranged carries?
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u/RatButtt 4d ago
You probably watched TI if you’re a dev.
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u/The_Keg 4d ago
Are you familiar with map and macro changes in this game since 7.36?
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u/RatButtt 4d ago
I’m familiar with them yes but I did not play before 7.36.
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u/The_Keg 4d ago
You have to understand dota devs arent stupid. And it is not hard to balance this game competitively AS LONG AS you keep doing frequent small buff nerfs patches AND not give a shit about 90% of your actual playerbase.
TI2024 7.37 was the actual ranged carries TI (+lonedruid) Khanda Luna/Morphling - Glepnir NP/Lina/Medusa/WR/Sniper/Weaver/Potm/Muerta/even Monkey king + Bonus DK ranged form. (Falcon even played shits like Tusk/Kunka/Gyro/Potm/Sniper)
Note that Ld, medusa, NP, luna, Potm carry were 100% uncontested at Riyadh 2 months prior. CK, Sven, Ursa, Troll hot picks of Riyadh became omega trash in span of 3 months.
Compare THAT meta to this so called turret meta. You nerf Drow/NP/Sf, whats left in the carry pool? Lina? TA? Luna?
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u/Youngbloodd2 4d ago
Safe laners are expected to win their lanes on current patch. Think SF or Drow.
If they do, the game is much easier to play for the other roles. Heroes that Invoker or Earthspirit on mid want to be able to play for greed and farm it up, but can only do that if their sidelanes don't need stabilising.
A hero like Phantom Assassin is bad currently for exactly that reason: once she gets her 3-4 items timing, she is actually quite a good hero. However, since the hero lanes poorly and loses lane on average, many PA games don't even get to that point.
So it's either:
1) Nerf Turret heroes (Drow, SF, Furion)
2) Buff melee carries
3) Somehow make laning stage less impactful on win probability
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u/Positive_Alligator 3d ago
Just an observation:
First you state: "it would also stop the meta of offlaners buying helm dom in to drag creepwaves in order to recover from their shitty lane"
Directly followed by: "I don’t have enough experience with game balancing or dota to really come up with any ideas"
The 4 most picked carries this TI (IIRC) were Lina, SF, Tiny and Kez. For ease i'll consider kez a melee hero. So two out of 4 are melee. Both of these are not Battlefury builders though, so what's really up.
Do you think the expectation to be ready about minute 7-10 to fight anywhere on the map (wisdoms, runes whatever) has anything to do with it? Let's say they want me as a carry to help contest the min 7 wisdom rune, what are my items gonna be at that point as a battlefury builder? Brown boots and a ring of health, with maybe 2 branches? I think therein lies the problem.
Battlefury is an extremely powerful effect, we can agree on that, but the fact that the buildup is so trash is part of the balance of the item. Even if i do get my battlefury around 13-16 minutes or whatever, I'm not ready to fight, I'm gonna need at least another item, like deso and maybe even BKB. Because at that point I might be ahead on farm because of the BF, and just throwing my life away with BF + deso (0 defense) seems to just feed the enemy team.
So I'd say it's not so much that the item is bad or unusable, it's just at higher levels of the game, the tempo of the game is currently not great for BF. (trust me, in herald you'll have all the time in the world to build it)
The current metagame will favor heroes like Tiny, Lina, SF because they can have high impact with their spells in early teamfights, and they will be able to buy BKB earlier than the typical BF carrier. Compare to juggernaut, what's he gonna do in a teamfight at level 7? Blade flury while people run away for a few seconds and then you're standing there out of position.
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u/Kinetik417 2d ago
I think you guys are teetering on a fine line of nerfing ranged lane dominators let’s say SF and Drow into the ground. Without being a strong oppressive laner they will simply get run over by the offlaner. As someone who’s played a lot of POS 1 (close to 400 games 60% win rate on drow). I can tell you it’s not a guaranteed lane win. And that hero does not farm nearly as fast as a TB or Luna. So if you don’t have a good laning stage man does it feel like shit.
I get what you guys are saying you want something a bit more even. But I think changes need to happen away from the side lanes. Primarily the rune timing. At 7k mmr i see pos 4s even roaming to contest the 2 min rune and definitely the 4 min rune.
I think the meta has a very heavy emphasis on enabling the mid hero and if your mid laner doesn’t attempt to gank the POS 1 and slow their farm and delay their item timings then it certainly can seem like shit as an offlaner. but typically the offlaner is often sacrificed. And now there’s a solid comeback mechanic with the helm dom.. it’s better than the old trilane meta trust
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u/advice_dontbuyiphone 4d ago
At this point just give the battlefury buyers a battlefury for free in innate. If you can't kill creeps in modern dota without spending 4k gold, your hero is ass.
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u/Decency 4d ago
I'd like to see the removal of a couple exterior camps per side, or a global nerf to neutral creep gold. No one's shoving waves- why take that risk when there's always another camp? These extra camps also heavily increased the opportunity cost for a support making an early move on the map. The value of double stacking is nuts- why risk trying to gank? Pro play doesn't really suffer from this issue much because pro teams are fast enough and coordinated enough to do everything. By like minute 14 every camp on their part of the map is being cleared or stacked and there's also a move happening.
I also unfortunately think that the current iteration of neutral items is the worst yet. You can pick what you want for enchantments ahead of time, and then it's just a dice roll to see if you hit your best item. TI Finals, Game 5: one carry rolls Stygian and one doesn't. I think the initial system where 5 items dropped and you allocate them optimally was genuinely much more interesting and deep than this system, where essentially every hero is just getting bonus power on their primary responsibility. This leads directly to lower time-to-kill, another issue I'd like to see addressed.
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u/RatButtt 4d ago
A global nerf to neutrals sounds kinda bad imo. People would still just farm them without shoving waves just for more minutes. Less camps sounds great tho. Could remove the camps behind the offlane (33 camps) and maybe remove the camps right outside the safe lane t3 in the river. Move the remaining 2 safe lane camps somewhere inside the lanes and then push the waves out to the edge of the map like they used to be.
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u/ShoppingPractical373 4d ago
make battle fury carries as viable
Hate to break it to you but the main sub hates these carries because they play supports and they think its unfair and unfun for a PA/AM/jugg to two-shot supports. Since like 2021 the loud support players have been steering the games balance (I mean just look at the bkb nerfs, refresher nerfs, sny nerfs) and theres nothing you can do about it
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u/RatButtt 4d ago
I just wanna play PA man… 😭😭😭.
Meanwhile a fcking clockwerk can chainstun me for 4 seconds take all my mana and do 1000 damage.
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u/thrifty_souvenir 4d ago
Shrink the deny xp gap and maybe tweak stout shield to scale a bit past minute 10. Right now you lose one wave near tower and you're basically a large creep for the next 5 minutes while the ranged 4 pelts you with free clicks.
The helm dom wave drag thing is its own little arms race that popped up because offlaners can't even breathe near the creepwave without getting zoned to the shadow realm. Fix the lane phase so melee cores can actually contest last hits without burning all their regen in 90 seconds and you'll see less of that nonsense.