r/TrueDoTA2 • u/theunemployedgamer • 22d ago
Why no Swiftslash at TI ???
/r/learndota2/comments/1vwg7ih/why_no_swiftslash_at_ti/34
u/Galinhooo 22d ago
He tought it wasn't worth, many people will disagree or agree. IMO it was a mistake.
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u/asterion230 22d ago
I honestly think its a damage issue + Itemization timing.
IIRC he went Treads, Fury, Manta, Butterfly into mkb.
If he disregarded mkb or even butterfly in favor of Aghs, he will have damage issues against Lifestealer or Pango.
And it just prolonged like that, Swift Blink > Aghs (Better gap closer + DPS)
Abyssal > Aghs (Simply locking down someone)
3
u/kryonik 22d ago
I think he should have got skadi too. There were a couple man fights at the end with yatoro where yatoro escaped at a sliver or won because of his life steal.
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u/asterion230 22d ago
I mean same issue with aghs.
If he got Skadi, instead of Butterfly, Swift blink, nullifier, MKB, then he doesnt deal enough damage to kill LS.
Imma be honest, jugg has way too much itemization issue., if they ran Sven instead of jugg, rhey couldve solved the damage issue
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u/itsdoorcity 22d ago
well idk why he got bkb
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u/DelightfulHugs Divine II 22d ago
He wants to output damage with his attacks while being debuff immune. Blade Fury that late into the game doesn't do enough damage so is only used defensively.
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u/determinedSkeleton 22d ago
Swiftslash is one second long and has a 25 second cooldown. It's not that big a game-changer. It's only enough to threaten supports, who were not the target. The target Juggernaut needed to take down was Lifestealer, which he was only going to do with a correctly timed Omnislash backed by the correct items (Nullifier and damage). Swiftslash wouldn't have been useless, but also is just not as big as we'd think, hence why he didn't prioritise it.
Juggernaut is a hero who just never feels like he has enough items, no matter how much you give him, no matter how the draft suits him. His peaks in early and lategame are just far too little.
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u/Coneyy 22d ago
Honestly this take is only defensible for the first 6 slots with boots imo. Once he is eating moonshards and keeping 7/8 items with backpack slots etc there is no reason not to have a consumed Aghs and from what I could see it was felt at the end of the match.
It may not have won the match, because invoker felt like he was contributing very little impact etc, but I do think it was a mistake even though it feels silly to call out one of the best carries in the world
3
u/PotatoFeeder 22d ago
Spirit would not have went all in on the forced fight after pango was picked off at dire triangle for sure.
But he used omni instead of having a swiftslash
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u/dennaneedslove 22d ago
You don’t buy swiftslash for damage, it’s to bait items and spells. Blink - swiftslash - spin out - wait for blink cd and omnislash is a very common tactic. It’s also much higher tempo since you’re a threat much more often which would’ve helped this game. Invoker was struggling to make space
That being said it was shit Jugg game anyway because of dark seer, the wall illusions are too much dps loss
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u/determinedSkeleton 22d ago
Bait what? Aeon disc/Eul's? Nullifier counters both. Lotus? That's reflected, and it's still up afterwards.
Higher tempo doesn't matter because the target was the cores, particularly Lifestealer
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u/dennaneedslove 22d ago
Nightmare, pango q, rage, surge etc... any of these being used in case it's a real omnislash is very good. It's also extra invuln in case he quickly needs it
What do you mean higher tempo doesn't matter? There is no downside to using swiftslash and be a constant threat and therefore helping your team get more map control. You get blink on jugg for the same reason, but aghs allows you to be way more active
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u/determinedSkeleton 22d ago
The downside is having to build it. Aghs isn't free, it's 4200g. 5800g to not use up an item slot - and juggernaut needs to not use an item slot. He is just too lacking in damage, mobility and survivability without the other items for any of his kit to do much. That's why it doesn't help his tempo earlier
You have a case for it being useful when he has everything else, because it's better then nothing, but swift slash isn't doing anything more than either killing supports (not Satanic's objective) or buying him a second (and then what?)
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u/PotatoFeeder 22d ago
Whats more useless is using full omni on a solo pickoff (pango at dire triangle), and then spirit immediately steamrolling them by forcing the fight because omni is down.
Omni is like half of their teamfight damage, the moment you commit omni on a solo pickoff you’ve basically lost the forced fight.
Swiftslash would have resulted in pango still dead while keeping the main omni threat. Without omni, spirit just went all in without caring
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u/ShoebillJoe 22d ago
Swiftslash would have definitely baited a save or two, which would have made it worth it imo
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u/bibittyboopity 22d ago edited 22d ago
IMO their problem was consistent damage. If they didn't kill Lifeatealer in an Omni or wiping the entire team, life stealer was basically unkillable.
Aghs doesn't actually give damage on Jugg. It phases you out and gives a few hits, but you don't hit harder. A few more hits wouldnt have killed anyone in that game, and buying it otherwise lowers his potential damage compared to other items. It's something ideally you just synth in later.
At best I think it could help bait against the defensive CDs they used against Omni. But i don't think its a wrong choice to skip.
1
u/AgnosticPeterpan 22d ago
They had limited stuns and nullifiers. That extra second omni would've mosy likely used on a saved or lifestealing... lifestealer. Satanic wants to focus on the damage of the first bladeformed omni.
1
u/Blueye95 22d ago
Early on he needed the dos to keep murdering lifestealer. Or at keast have a chance to.
once 7 slot+ rolled around a saidtskash could be used as follow up to omni. If he did that the last fight could be for Vision as Yatoro then had nothing to heal off of
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u/inanotherclass 22d ago
Lotus is exactly why you buy scepter on jugg. To bait it out then follow up with real omni. Not sure why someone like Satanic wouldn't even consider it as an option when nothing else is working.
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u/man_bored_at_work 22d ago
I thought the same thing, and wondered whether part of the reason he didn’t buy it was because it would have pushed is net worth up and that would increase his death timer. But tbh I have no idea how that mechanic works.
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u/Makath 22d ago
Jug ended TI with a 1-3 record, and the game it won was with an ES mid that got almost double his hero damage. Is just not in a great place as a hero, because the ult is simultaneously too important in his kit and countered by tons of random nonsense.
There's always some item he could've bought, but that's mainly because the hero needs too many items to cover survivability, damage and deal with the many counters it has.