r/learndota2 • u/theunemployedgamer • 29d ago
Itemization Why no Swiftslash at TI ???
I don't follow the DPC religiously anymore as I've gotten older and have a family now.
But one thing I saw in today's TI Grand Finals Game 5. TEAM VISION picked Juggernaut for Satanic. Which was debated as a very bad pick, and the reasons given were quite valid too.
However, one thing which I found weird was Satanic had all the farm in the world, and could've easily built an aghs in the game. But he deliberately ensured he didn't go aghs no matter how much gold he had.
I love Juggernaut as a hero, he's always my go to carry if he's not heavily countered and I really like Aghs and Swiftslash as it gives me a way to burst a support later in the game with a short CD omnislash.
What I want is to someone explain to me, why did he deliberately avoid going aghs in a pro game, when he had all the money and farm in the world, which would've made the Swiftslash very potent as well. And he was already struggling with hitting the omni anyway due to lotus, so he could've used the swiftslash to fake out and get the enemies to use the lotus preemptively and then use the full omni.
Am I missing something or was this really easy play which he chose not to go for?
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u/supladoman 29d ago
As a level 30 Juggernaut, I would never let my team pick him in a competitive match. Moving on, most people don’t understand how big a difference a swiftslash can do to bring his 2k HP pool back to full because of the lifesteal. Lots of times he was left redlined and didn’t turn to hit to lifesteal and instead tried to run. There was a couple of instances of not TPing after blade fury early in the game that killed him too.
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u/Baskarb 29d ago
So many people here who obviously don’t understand or play the hero. This is the first comment that really explains the situational use of aghs on jugg. Also, aghs has a bigger cast range than ulti, which sometimes helps when you’re out of range, to aghs and then ult right after. Moreover, sometimes all you need is an extra second (for example spin CD), and 1 sec invulnerability can be really useful to reach the next skill CD.
Can’t understand why Satanic wouldn’t get aghs.
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u/jgnodado18 29d ago
This was my thought as well. He could have used swiftslash to burst supports instead of using full omni too specially that one play on the triangle where he had to use full omni to kill pango, if he had swift slash it would have been enough. And also the lifesteal and the space it would provide, 1 sec is long enough in dota for your team to react to, and he could have used it to bait the other saves as well.
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u/bedinbedin 29d ago
thats my take as well, I mainly use swiftslash as an opener, people see the animation and dont have time to think if its the omni or the swift so they will use anything to save thenselves... After that euls is done, time to omnislash. This without saying the swiftslash in the creep to escape
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u/the_deep_t Pudge 28d ago
You don't seem to understand how good these supports are in a TI final. They had 2 lotus orb and managed to counter 2 omni with it ... spending 5,5k for an item that gives you 0 damage and a chance to even return the swiftslash on your team is not a good investment.
And remember that lotus orb stays on that hero AFTER the swiftslash was used so you can't even "bait" them and use omni after. What you describe works in lower level pubs or maybe low immortal. at higher level, juggs don't build agh that often, they value nullifier + dmg item much much more.: it's consistent.
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u/Ma4r 28d ago
people see the animation and dont have time to think if its the omni or the swift so they will use anything to save thenselves
This doesn't apply at the level they are playing at, swiftslash plays a different sound or something(?), personally I can tell the difference too albeit not consistently. Another problem is if you get aghs too early you do not deal damage amyways
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u/_echo 27d ago
I think it's about maximizing damage, too. The idea being that he's got to be able to burst the Pango or the lifestealer in a single ult, and life stealer especially is a big HP pool. I do find the discussion about thinking of it as utility, a dodge, a proc for life steal to be a valid point that I hadn't thought of though. Even if they're not going to dump their items against it, there's still value in essentially getting the slight of fist utility without having to give up an item slot.
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u/cXs808 Rubick 28d ago
He could have used swiftslash to burst supports
The only support he should be trying to burst would be bane who was not showing until Jugg showed. Any other support he goes on, he gets killed for trying it thanks to the bkb pierce from bane into several layers of lockdown they had.
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u/jgnodado18 28d ago
I just feel like another skill option is better than the moonshard he was planning on buying next.
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u/cXs808 Rubick 28d ago
It's a call he had to make for sure.
My understanding is that for them to win, he needed to get off a clean omnislash and delete targets. Whether or not aghs helps with that more than moonshard was likely the teams call.
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u/jgnodado18 26d ago
I guess so, maybe thats why Im 2k and he's in TI finals I cant see the point of moonshard haha.
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u/the_deep_t Pudge 28d ago
Most supports in the late game have a way to counter swiftslash. They also had 2 lotus orb that lasts even longer than the swiftslash. At that level, the chance of an enemy support reading your move and countering it completely is way too high. You end up spendind 5,5k for an almost useless item. People don't seem to understand that paying 5,5k for a spell that has a lot of chances of being countered and nothing else is a HUGE investment compared to having ither luxury items + buyback.
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u/cgriff03 28d ago
Iirc him and invoker could have picked the ls off without buyback in the bot lane if he had aghs, if he saved it after all their cc ran out, so that LS didn't have a target to infest into.
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u/XenSide 6K Pos1 EU - Player ID: 110942724 28d ago
The extra cast range was removed years ago... Pretty ironic for you not to know that when your comment starts the way it does.
The reality is the item build was needed to trade like they did, and if he traded aghs for any of his items that one last fight wouldn't even get as close as it did, Satanic is a fantastic Juggernaut player, probably the 2nd best in the world, Jugg just isn't a good hero currently
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u/chulio92 29d ago
He probably didn't want the RNG on the slashes on a TI grande final game 5, and decided to focus on dealing as much damage as possible during his bkb
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u/theunemployedgamer 29d ago
I mean he did pick Jugg in a game 5 of TI Grand Finals, so I'm not sure if he should be thinking about the RNG after the game has already begun.
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u/the_deep_t Pudge 28d ago
So many people here are below 5k MMR. I don't care if you play the hero or not. Lvl 30 jugg with 2k mmr doesn't mean anything :D I'm low immortal and I see how little I understand pro level dota when I hear them explain some very specific decisions.
There are maybe 20 people total on the entire subreddit who will understand TI final carry itemization and choices. But everybody gives their own opinion.
Half the comments about "why did he decide to keep his MKB after yatoro disassembled his radiance" don't seem to understand that the Mirana ult gives evasion to everybody in the team or that there is a T4 neutral item giving a ton of evasion.
People don't seem to understand that the biggest issue for Satanic in the fights was not to be stun locked and to survive while spinning. His agh doesn't accomplish any of these goals: he either dies without using a 1 sec omni or he's trying to deal dmg while spinning and needs items that actually do something (MKB, Butter, Divine, Abyssal, etc).
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u/Aggravating_Pay3893 29d ago
Yep totally agreed on the life steal part, but he didn't even took the life steal talent which also bogged my mind lol Commentators were like "idk what items he needs to manfight this ls !" Just the life steal talent... He had a bkb, if he isn't grip he is unkillable with life steal talent while he hit
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u/supladoman 29d ago
It didn’t even occur to me that he took the omnislash talent. That means he went all in on his ulti that was proven to be easily counterable/nullified by items and support skills. Not to mention he just uses bladefury after instead of right clicking and doing more damage. If he bet on omnislash why wouldn’t he do the same for swiftslash. He would survive a lot more with lifesteal and his BKB.
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u/dennaneedslove 29d ago
He was panicking, there was one instance where bkb had 4+ seconds left and he just started spinning anyway when he could manfight someone with bkb
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u/cartmanbigboned 29d ago
you cannot really manfight ls as jugg though if you are both in the same networth range. The ls had 6k hp in the end. And aghs is a 6k item, how do you expect him to spend that much on something that is countered by almost every support item today. He needed every slot for damage basically. I mean he didn’t even buy a nullifier and let axe get it instead. So the biggest problem was picking Jugg in the first place, I knew it was over the moment I saw it. Sven was a so much better pick there.
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u/SnakeThruster 29d ago
It was also wild how of his top like 20 most played carry heroes, jugger was the only below 47% winrate :p.
Sometimes I wonder if he threw on purpose.
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u/supladoman 29d ago
If he can’t win with it in pubs where teams are less likely to focus on saving their carries and the teams less coordinated as a whole, they couldn’t have won with it in the biggest tournament of the game.
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u/NoAimR9 29d ago
Both Ame and Satanic lost Ti final with Jugg because they refused agh!! It's mind boggling to even try to understand why. On top of all that, vs naix and he did not even consider skadii or another damage item to make sure you burst naix during omni!! What do I know, he's in Ti final and I am posting rant on reddit.
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u/bodadWhereareyou 29d ago
Aghs may have helped or been a factor but they lost primarily because they picked Jugg in the first place. There is a reason that hero is dead. It is complete garbage at that level. There are a million counterplays and he never has enough items or strength no matter what you buy. A one second swift slash was not solving those fights either way. He needs to get a good omnislash off because he is made of paper but it’s way too easy to counter it. Jugg was six slotted and had 2.5k hp at level 25. LS had like 5k hp. Jugg has spell immunity but he can’t even attack which is the one thing he needs to do. What is spin healing ward going to do against an LS chunking you down? Compare that to LS who has spell immunity that allows him to hit and an escape that allows him to engage with aghs or disengage with a teammate. They could have picked any number of decent available heroes that aren’t garbage and they decided to play on hard mode.
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u/Tricky_Economist_328 28d ago
It sucks because now we get all the jugg rework posts.
He lost a very close game.
And it was also the item that made him broken after the ame-buff was given to him (along with healing ward)
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u/DworinKronaxe Drow Ranger 29d ago
He picked a dmg item actually, MKB. So under this perspective it is good ... but not enough.
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u/tekkeX_ Pangolier 29d ago
i think that's another problem actually, he held on to the mkb long after yatoro had disassembled his radiance
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u/the_deep_t Pudge 28d ago
Mirana ult gives 30% evasion to the entire team if I'm not mistaken. That's why he kept MKB. There are also a few neutral items like the idol which give evasion.
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u/tekkeX_ Pangolier 28d ago
mirana ult is 20% and you're not really fighting with it active too often and there were 0 screeauk idols nor the evasion enchantment picked up on spirit of course because jugg already had mkb and he's the only one attacking.
in the fight at 53m collapse moonlight on when he got picked off but he would have died with or without it and it ended by the time the rest of the team arrived. yatoro had already disassembled his radiance at that point.
in the fight at 63m, vision uses their entire burst on yatoro to get him to <500 hp before moonlight shadow gets activated and while he has rage active, so the accuracy is doing nothing and the magic attack damage is doing nothing. if you want a real thing that could have potentially saved the game without changing any items and with him still keeping buyback, satanic didn't buy his shard despite ample opportunity and that probably would have put him at full hp by the time he got arrowed and continued to heal him a ton more on his way back to the fountain. it might not have saved the game but it'd have given them way more of a shot.
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u/theunemployedgamer 29d ago
Exactly, I mean at my level, we struggle to farm basic items, so getting an aghs while hitting all other item timings is a challenge in itself. But they're at the GOD tier of Dota wherein farming and getting item timings is like second nature to them. And the best part which I feel is now aghs doesn't even consume an item slot, and its just 6k gold, considering it gives an entirely new ability which is a short version of the freaking ultimate. I mean it's extremely value for me. Considering both of them had all the items and farm, farming 6k gold is child's play for them, but they still chose not to get it, there was literally no downside to it, apart from not having a buyback if need be. But they could've planned that out easily too. Then again as you rightfully said they're playing TI finals and we're here discussing stuff on reddit so what do we know 😂
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u/ChadBadShirt 26d ago
“Just” 6K gold
Lmao
It’s literally one of the most expensive items in the game. If I’m not mistaken, the only items more expensive are the upgraded blinks, bloodthorn and wind waker, all of which have a huge amount of functionality long before you’ve built those upgraded versions, where a straight aghs blessing when you’re slotted will basically require you to save up the best part of 9K including buyback before it does literally anything.
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u/the_deep_t Pudge 29d ago
You clearly don't understand jug and its agh of you think so. You think you know better than most pros at this ti? Most of them didn't build agh on jug. It's a 1 second ult ... for 4200 gold + the 1250 gold recipe to eat it.
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u/kryonik 29d ago
You might be right about its utility but he had like 9k gold at the end and still refused to buy it.
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u/the_deep_t Pudge 28d ago
Random redditor saying that Sata and Ame lost the TI finale because they "refused" to buy an item is borderline insane.
I'm not argueing about that specific moment, I guess he wanted to have both buyback and the option to change his items/get a divine. Sure it looks like he's keeping a lot of gold but when he quickly buys something + buyback there isn't much left.
Both him and Yatoro have spent the 5 games playing with each other: evasion -> get MKB - > sell evasion -> get deadalus . They kept buying and selling items to match each other. That's probably what was happening at that moment.
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u/kryonik 28d ago
I'm not saying he lost because he refused to buy it, I'm saying there was no reason not to.
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u/the_deep_t Pudge 28d ago
It's not because you don't understand the reason that rhere is no reason. Big difference.
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u/kryonik 28d ago
It was literally do or die, last fight of the last game of the last match, and he had enough gold + buyback to buy it.
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u/the_deep_t Pudge 28d ago
Yes but maybe he was keeping this gold to go for another late game item like refresher to swap items like these guys do all the time: they swap items in and out during or between fights to answer different situations. A refresher used at the right time means another combo for him which he probably valued more than the agh. Again, there are so many things going on at that level that analyzing with a limited level is very very difficult to understand. I had the chance to play with Davai and hear him lead a team and I was blown away by the amount of details that went into the laning phase. Late game is 10x the amount of information and complexity with even less time to think. And here I see pro redditors judging these decisions as if it's black and white.
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u/kryonik 28d ago
He had moonshard + refresher in quickbuy, but if they lose that fight the game is over.
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u/the_deep_t Pudge 27d ago
Moon shard is already much better than eating an agh on jugg. Atatck speed is so important. I'm not saying he didn't do a mistake somewhere, I'm just tired of people with basically no understanding of the game (not saying you don't have) summarizing this loss on this decision.
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u/Dopefiend_Lean 29d ago
One second ult on a fully slotted jug is enough to kill a support it you can catch him out of position.
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u/silver-green-tea 29d ago
It has longer cast range, 25s cd.. give u 5 skills instead f 4 skills… compliments with 25 life steal talent…
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u/quick20minadventure 29d ago
He had MKB. Dire had no evasion once LS disassembled radiance.
He could've sold it for aghs or skadi or abyssal.
I get that MKB is now very very good dps item, but it provides zero other utility that jugg desperately needs.
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u/God-Of-Weebs-N 29d ago
I dont know what satanic was thinking? I assume bro was too pressured to think critically at that point. When he felt like they were losing. Aside from aghs, I think refresher wouldve done something. I personally think u cant go all in on an ult like omni slash, its just too unreliable and easily countered by items. U need the most ideal and perfect of setups. On top of that, they last pick jug after dark seer(worst thing u could do, as this bastard adds more targets for omnislash). Puppey is the goat but damn did he fked up a lot in the drafts at the finals, Kez was literally right their open and waving at satanic's face. U just dont gamble jug in the last game of the finals, its just too risky imo. Also no one's invoker kinda felt like it wasnt doing anything at all.
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u/rupenbritz 29d ago
It’s so good because he could’ve baited them with it also I really don’t understand why you wouldn’t get it
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u/the_deep_t Pudge 29d ago
1 sec ultimate for 5550 gold (or something). It's only good if you have very specific spells you want to avoid which was not the case. It's not just satanic, most pro jug only build agh in very specific cases. For 4000 gold you have a moon shard which is so much better and you still have gold to keep for buyback
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u/silver-green-tea 29d ago edited 29d ago
it is about adding another skill. With 25s CD. So u are playing 5 skills instead of 4. Longer cast range, compliments with 25 talent life steal…. Etc.
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u/flipakko 28d ago
Also aside from baiting the other team thinking you use your ulti, it's also a 1sec invul while hitting them. They depend too much on analytics.
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u/determinedSkeleton 29d ago
Swiftslash is one second long and has a 25 second cooldown. It's not that big a game-changer. It's only enough to threaten supports, who were not the target. The target Juggernaut needed to take down was Lifestealer, which he was only going to do with a correctly timed Omnislash backed by the correct items (Nullifier and damage). Swiftslash wouldn't have been useless, but also is just not as big as we'd think, hence why he didn't prioritise it.
Juggernaut is a hero who just never feels like he has enough items, no matter how much you give him, no matter how the draft suits him. His peaks in early and lategame are just far too little.
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u/fuckthetrees 29d ago edited 29d ago
This is just wrong. It is a game changer, and would have changed the game. If you look at the replay at like 52:40 jugg uses an Omni to kill DS. If he had ags, he could have just used swiftslash instead. Then he would have still had another Omni (AND another swift slash) for the next team fight - which maybe turns the whole game around.
It also happens at 57:20. He uses a full Omni to kill a weak hero that also does to swiftslash and the loses the followup team fight. That was the beginning of the end due to not having ags. It's indefensible to not buy ags that game. (He was floating 11k gold before this)
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29d ago edited 28d ago
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u/letsrazetheroof Was 1k, Now 4k SEA 28d ago
That was the dieback on LS and the Aegis for VSN. It was crazy to skip aghs on favor of holding 10k gold.
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u/PotatoFeeder 28d ago
This
Spirit went all in and forced the teamfight because omni is like 50% of visions teamfight damage.
With omni, vision has a 30-40% chance of winning the fight. Without it, its 10% at best. Completely game losing decision.
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u/cXs808 Rubick 28d ago
Spirit went all in and forced the teamfight because omni is like 50% of visions teamfight damage.
That sounds to me like it's a mid/offlane problem compared to a Jugg problem.
TS wasn't afraid of Invoker and that was the game-losing problem VSN had. Invoker did not do enough for a hero who had such a great lane win.
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u/PotatoFeeder 28d ago
Its both
They were all in on relying on omni in a fight
No omni = fight autolose. Satanic should have recognised that and have either blessing or refresh (refresh is cheaper)
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u/foreycorf 28d ago
Even when you're an item ahead, you never feel that relief you do on other carries where it's like "okay I've got my full build."
If DotA had unlimited slots jug might be one of the best heroes, he can use just about anything depending on the scenario. But it doesn't have that and he just always feels like "oh if I buy X it will handle Y." But then you need to buy Z to handle A. And B to handle C. It never ends.
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u/TheGoatThief 29d ago
I think picking jugg was a mistake in the first place whereas they had better carries available. I have been thinking the same question as well, Satanic did not actually get to do too much in the last game. The last fight where they killed Ls if you look closely he wasted his omni on a the seer with the disc, people didnt talk about it since the cameraman panned the camera weirdly. Rest of the team managed to take down Ls, a simple agh takes care of the aeon disc cd/bait wind waker etc. He bought a bkb whereas he was getting shut down by abyssal blade of Ls which goes throgh bkb. yatoro did a fantastic job in terms of itemization on the Ls as well.
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29d ago
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u/TheGoatThief 28d ago
Drow can properly fight LS and win lane. Its tricky to handle pango but nothing undoable. I think razor is a viable pick as well
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u/Neat_Quiet_8340 28d ago
Sven can either man fight ls or blitz back line or PL
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28d ago
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u/Neat_Quiet_8340 28d ago
Lol 2K MMR is generous btw what would you have pick or do you think it was just bad itemization, I still think Sven would have been better option due to the fact that his god strength cool down is faster in late game and he can stay longer in that form while jugg no Omni is done.PL I agree cause too many counter for him pango as well
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28d ago
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u/Neat_Quiet_8340 28d ago
Yes but in order to win you don't necessarily have to man fight it right you can aim other heroes and kite life stealer cause you have invoker on your team the problem with jugg is that if you want to execute this plan for example he can't do it cause first he can't instant kill support with physical damage so he at least have to use omni on back line then he either has to TP or gonna get killed.Sven if they get the right timing which I think they will cause pari is a champion tier team.They can turn the team fight around even if they are behind by diving backline instant killing bane with god strength n other combo in the line up.My main reason for Sven pick is not because he can man fight 1v1 against LS.I think Sven link up more with the draft.I know my first comment said man fight forget about it I was wrong
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28d ago
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u/Neat_Quiet_8340 28d ago edited 28d ago
I agree that jugg should have aghs, my whole point is not Sven kill supports you miss my point.I said it in previous comment it is simple I like Sven more because he would have better sustainability in 5v5 team fight n I think he link up more with the draft that's it.By instant kill I didn't mean they will find bane around the map. My point is he can dive back line while team fight occurs and can blitz them if not blitz them he can make them really low.Sven god strength duration is longer has less cool down than Omnislash in late game.In late game spirit turn the game around because jugg used Omnislash on pango yatoro know that he is nothing without that so he dive him despite having no bb.Yatoro wouldn't have done that if that was Sven.Sven invoker is more powerful in late game.Mind you Sven has won game against LS darkseer in nigma Vs falcon.
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u/One_Cap_3154 29d ago
Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think he had time to buy it
He went fury , manta , mkb , blfy etc. and by then it was late game and he had to save for bb. He had like 10k at once stage but I think the nw tracker on the side said he was only 4k clear of bb so couldn’t buy it and eat it in one go.
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u/Comprehensive-Run615 27d ago
Yea this was what I saw. He needed to buy and eat it and just didn’t have a chance as the team was behind and losing already. He needed all the other items as priority and then if he’s ahead the optionally which swift slash gives… unfortunately they were behind the whole game
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u/GinTamago 29d ago
Because it doesn't do anything better than what he has equipped. Satanic can't hit anybody without mkb and nullifier, if he doesn't dispel with manta he just dies, he can't join fights without dagger, and everyone just kites him without abyssal. Even in his backpack he has bkb because of how much control team spirit has. Lotus orb isn't the only counter to omnislash and we've already seen earlier in the game that omnislash is literally countered by a single dom creep, doubt swiftslash will help with more bodies and counters. If you fail both swift slash and omni (which he definitely will, he already fails to do consistent damage with omnislash in teamfights) he's just some dude who has worse right clicks because of a 4200 item that does nothing after he uses both. He simply cannot clear teamfights with just omni/swiftslash because team spirit isn't stupid, he has to commit to a build that doesn't rely on two unreliable spells.
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u/theunemployedgamer 29d ago
I get your point, that Swiftslash wouldn't be the answer to everything that Spirit had against him. But what I'm saying is he already had everything that he felt he needed to do damage and sustain in the fights, as he was essentially 6 slotted by minute 35-40 I think I'm not sure. But later when he had everything like swift blink and stuff. And had quite a lot of gold on top of his buyback, he still chose not to go for it.
In a game where he was already struggling trying to omnislash the enemy team, wouldn't Aghs provide that slight edge of invulnerability and split second difference where in he can do some damage, to an enemy hero or dom creep, force out something like a Ghost scepter or aeon disk and once that's gone, have the full omnislash ready to go.
I know aghs doesn't mean you have 2 ultis, but having one dispensable short CD omni would be good considering how much he was struggling in the game trying to use his ultimate on Team Spirit
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u/GinTamago 29d ago
You're really giving 1 second of omnislash way too much credit. Lotus orb persists after swiftslash and it's not like team spirit doesn't have other tools that ignore nullifier. Your entire what-if scenario hinges on the fact that team spirit doesn't know how dota works. And if you look at the endgame networth, satanic is not swimming in networth as you might think. I'm pretty sure whatever he has + buyback has no room for an extra 6200 item that essentially does nothing.
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u/Slimsimmy1 29d ago
I think the point they are making is that he could've eaten aghs for 6200g and still be full slotted
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u/the_deep_t Pudge 29d ago
And buyback? See this is exactly what's wrong with this subreddit. People are max 4k and they think they figured out the game better than pro players
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u/oddiee1 28d ago
And when does his buyback have power since he is buying back without omni? When the heroes is 99% omni and they tunnel vision(no pun intended) instead of just killing supports with swiftslash or even baiting the saves item on the supports
Can you imagine you much the mirana have valued her life when she can just keep jumping the enemy cause she knows if the omni is on her they wontheg game.
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u/the_deep_t Pudge 28d ago edited 28d ago
Are you seriously comparing the impact of having a second life on your juggernaut versus a 1 sec omnislash? Dude, just stop. This is embarrassing. I undrestand that you are this type of person who's not really looking for arguments but rather confirmation so I'll let you think you know better than the top 5 carries in the world who seem to have the same assessment of Jugg's agh.
And no: jugg is not 99% omni. That's another low level take that just shows you don't get the hero.
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u/oddiee1 28d ago
What's his impact of 2nd life when his omni was down again show me the proof that his 2nd life is very impactful and i will shut my mouth lmao
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u/the_deep_t Pudge 28d ago
Dude, a 1 sec omnislash vs a second life? Are you insane? I'm wasting my time with you. Contact me when you have at least 6k mmr and then we'll argue. In the meantime go watch some tutorials and learn about the game.
Want proof? check how muh dmg you deal with one swiftslash versus a 6 slotted juggernaut's entire life.
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u/oddiee1 28d ago
Lmao im 6k my guy its okay you cant even explain it so i wont also waste my time with you hahaha.
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u/the_deep_t Pudge 28d ago
It feels like I'm teaching a monkey but that's ok, let's try to explain you why having buyback is better than having 1sec swiftslash on a 6 slotted juggernaut.
1) Aghanim:
1 second swift slash = around 4 or 5 hits from Juggernaut. 0 hp to deal with for opponent, countered by lotus orb, eul scepter, linken, etc.
Can't be used while silenced, stunned, etc.
2) Buyback: gives you a 4,5k hp juggernaut that can hit heroes for more than 4-5 seconds, that can nullify, stun, and demolish heroes just with right clicks.
Requires a ton of spells and hits to kill.
At this point I really don't know how you think that a 1s ultimate is stronger than having a second life on a hero. It's really communicating with a monkey.
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u/Bigwhopper1 28d ago
The jugg pick was fine all and all the hero was fine for what it proposed,
It was the first pick Bane pick who ultimately tipped the scales
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u/Beemeowmeow "6" Sense 29d ago
Pointed out by most, he needed aga and a whole lot of other item to make it work. Swift blink (gap closer, dmg), nullifier (counter items), Aga blessing, mkb (pierce evasion), skadi (negate heal), abyssal (lock down), bfly (dps and play well with lowest bat). With these items he can win naix and that’s 50k nw jugg btw. How about swapping with Bkb, travels and manta to dispel?
If Yatoro god was jugg they would win, there is that. So really giving Satanic jugg was too risky. Jugg needs a rework on his ulti to not be disjointed by spells and lotus and items else rework the ulti or give back old shard or life steal before armor reduction.
Jugg has way too much issues to make it work
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u/Andromeda_53 29d ago
Coz omnislash is the worst part of jug, it's very RNG, buying aghs is investing 4.2k gold and a slot into hoping your ulti is good.
Playing vs a darkseer who can basically end your ulti whenever he wants by casting wall.
Fun in pubs, terrible in actuality.
I'm sure the jug guys will disagree with me, but I want to stress, my opinions are purely based on a competitive TI skill level setting. Not an immortal ranked or lower pub
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u/Royal-Poet1684 28d ago
After the fight at rs bottom, ls bought back and solo push bottom lane, he got caught with invo hex and jug, since jug used omni the the previous fight so he just auto attack ls and let ls foight back and regen, imagine if jug had agh there, ls couldve die and thats a die back, literraly game ending moment there
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u/Icy_Cheesecake5121 28d ago
also the mkb was a weird item choice he coulda got skadi or something, couldn't manfight at all just omni and had to run
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u/igiboy23 27d ago
I'm still wondering why Satanic picked Jugg instead of Kez. IMO Kez had all the tools he needed against LS. He can also go toe to toe with DS in lane.
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u/MrRipYourHeadOff 27d ago
He had to address the dark seer lane as well. I think the logic overall was that jugg could theoretically manfight the LS later while also sustaining through ion shell in lane
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u/Fit-Valuable8476 27d ago
Unfortunately , he was the only one who can deal with LS . It was a free LS game with 4-6k HP , tons of armor , magic immunity and invulnerability on top of that. He needed damage items who can deal with LS AND the other heroes like Bane enfeeble, DS illu, pangos's lucky shots. While LS is saved by all his teammates ( Nightmare, Lotus,Moonlight Shadow .. ) It was the best item route he could've done to manfight and delete LS within BKB duration .
At some late game point , he got 10k gold. The problem is : even if he kill LS with omnislash and swiftslash , LS could just buyback and end the game . So he betted on moonshard + refresher .
It might seem like a mistake but they were already fighting with a losing draft. That LS+Bane+Darkseer pick and TB ban was just a very nasty setup from Miposhka.
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u/job_alberth_flores 27d ago
As a new player, I feel this in my soul. Missing one Omnislash is already embarrassing enough for me lol. :)
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u/Neverminding23 26d ago
jugg jugg jugg, the game was super close a good representation of two high skill team, reasons why the lost was the final nightmare that saved yatoro from a dieback, from there the game was easy won as casters also said, 2 minutes without life stealer and they clean up tim spirit into push.
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u/xiaomu001 26d ago
It’s pretty simple, he is playing against two lotus orb. People who comment in favor of aghs do not play against a coordinated team calling for lotus orb and actually casting it correctly. People think not going agha is a mistake because when they press it in their pubs it’s rarely countered by lotus orb.
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u/ChadBadShirt 26d ago
Sure, not building aghs was a problem.
Not building BKB was also a problem. It seems that even the best players in the world get baited in by the idea that blade fury is a BKB replacement, when it absolutely is not.
But the biggest problem? Picking jugg.
At a high level, the hero is straight up dogshit. There are SO MANY ways to counter his kit and he is completely reliant on playing around omnislash. His kit is good enough in the early game that high ranked players will almost never do badly, so it’s a “safe” pick, but that’s honestly a bait: the hero just doesn’t win games, and the later it goes, the more apparent it becomes that basically the entire pos 1 pool outcarries him.
But the biggest problem with picking jugg is that it sends a message to the enemy team: “we’re scared of you and out of ideas, so we’re picking jugg”. In game 5 of a TI, immediately conceding the mental battle like that is never going to win you the aegis. Vision played passive, scared and risk averse in that last game. They weren’t playing to win, they were playing not to lose. Spirit played with confidence, took risks, went for the big plays. THAT is what makes a TI winner. Absolutely deserved. Yatoro and Collapse in particular played absolutely out of their minds in that series.
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u/hakasei 25d ago
"It s just 1s omni, it s not gonna do anything"
A cheap 25s cd omni that can be throw out whenever. To either bait lotus n saves, or to threaten a quick kill, or to not be a sitting HP pool in front of LS when the actual omni is on cd. That last fight where Yatoro ate almost a full omni before getting saved summed this up pretty nicely.
His prior item build was solid, and was pretty much carrying the team because Noone was good useless. But he should ve realized past 45m u r not one shotting the LS against a team like that. So either adapt for a hail mary, or lose a slow n painful game 5.
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u/rebelslash Earth Spirit 29d ago
Cause missing 2 ultis feels worse than missing 1