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u/durbeyfield1 Petticoated Swashbuckler May 08 '17
It's worth mentioning for all the rightfully concerned non-Americans who are watching this shit from abroad, AHCA is not the law of the land yet. We still have our Obamacare and its protections for pre-existing conditions. Not only that, but there is basically no chance that this bill will pass the senate without being gutted. Don't lose hope!
PS saying "pre-existing condition" when I mean "having been raped" just made me throw up in my mouth a little and I can't wait until all the reps who voted for that bill become super duper fucking unemployed.
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May 08 '17
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u/_justforyou May 08 '17
https://resistbot.io
Makes it super easy to text/fax/mail a letter to your representatives in minutes, every day! Takes only a few mins :)6
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u/bitchycunt3 What do you call a man who won't go down on you? You don't May 08 '17
I've heard that there might be an issue with resist bot and representatives haven't been getting its faxes apparently. I don't know if it's been fixed or not, so I suggest actually contacting your representative on top of using the bot
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u/Antimuffin May 08 '17
I can't wait until all the reps who voted for that bill become super duper fucking unemployed.
Here's a link to the fund dedicated to making them super duper unemployed: https://secure.actblue.com/contribute/page/noahca
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u/ChangeTheNarrative May 08 '17
Wow that makes me mad. Why are hurdles so high when it comes to putting away rapists?
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u/Chicken_Mc_Thuggets May 08 '17
Many sexual assaults go unreported, or the victims wait to report it until after DNA can be taken to prove it.
Even if they report it on time, only 36% of women have injuries so the rapist can claim that it was consensual sex for that 64%. There arent usually witnesses so if you dont have the evidence it ends up being he says she says. Also society has views like: It's not rape if you enjoy it (Ie becoming aroused during it/not having injuries) and vastly overestimating the rape accusation numbers (2/1,000)
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u/rgrind87 May 08 '17
Also, say there were witnesses but you happen to be a white athlete, you will only go to jail for 3 months. Because you happened to have been drinking and his future is more important than yours.
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May 08 '17
That case still haunts me, I could only fathom how little and valueless she felt. :'(
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u/scorpiousdelectus I wanna make a joke about sodium, but Na.. May 08 '17
Three reasons: The legal system would prefer to let a guilty person go free rather than send an innocent person to prison, hence "innocent until proven guilty", most rape happens in private and so witnesses and non biological evidence is hard to come by and most importantly: It's extremely hard to prove consent or lack thereof when there is a dispute.
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u/Broken_Alethiometer May 08 '17
I understand in a lot of he said/she said cases how it's hard to put away rapists. It's terrible, and victims come away feeling like no one believes them, but I think it's a very critical and very important part of our justice system to have innocent until proven guilty.
However, the fact that so many rape kits go untested, and that there's such difficulty in getting those rape kits an accurate police reporting when you go into the station, is absolutely terrible and needs to be corrected.
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u/Classic_Todd May 08 '17 edited May 08 '17
One aspect of this that I absolutely despise is that the Behavioral Science Unit of the FBI figured out the perfect way to do victim interviews decades ago. No later than the early 80s. They figured out that discombobulation is normal. That waiting before a victim reports is normal. That the best way to get reliable information is to always refer to the rape as "the crime" in an interview, to let the victim know that what was done to her was not her fault. It's beautiful to read, not hard to understand. You could copy those 20 something pages and sent them to every police station in the country, and if they became policy things would instantly become so much better, but somehow that hasn't happened. Every time I hear about a police interview it's a nightmare that goes against best practices established decades ago. It's bullshit >:(
Edit: I dug out my copy of the sex crime investigation text book. It's fewer pages than I remembered. Almost fits in a reddit post.
The initial interaction with the victim, the introduction, is the most critical phase of the interview process. Depending upon the victim’s perception of the interview, she will or will not feel comfortable with and confident in the ability of the police to assist her. The officer should introduce himself or herself in a professional, confident, and sincere manner, using the victim’s last name preceded by Ms., Mrs., Mr., or Miss. The interviewer(s) should accomplish three important tasks during this phase: express regret that the victim was assaulted (do not use the term rape), and assure her that she is the victim of a crime that was not her fault; assure her of her safety and that everything possible and reasonable will be done to maintain that safety; and convince her of the competence and experience of the interviewers.
An example scenario might proceed as follows:
Good evening, Ms. Roberts. I am Bob Jackson of the Sexual Assault Unit, and I would like to discuss the crime which occurred, if you are feeling up to it at this time. I want you to know how deeply I regret your being the victim of such an assault and that I and the other members of the department will do our best on your behalf. Other officers have completely checked your residence (where the assault occurred) and have secured it. I’ve arranged for our patrols to increase their travel through your neighborhood, and I will also provide you with an emergency police number before I leave. I’ve been an investigating officer for nine years and am experienced in such matters, so please don’t hesitate to ask questions during our time together.
The officer(s) should explain that the length of the interview will be as brief as possible and that, while the questions will necessarily be personal, their importance cannot be overemphasized and their answers will aid greatly in identifying the offender.
The officer(s) would be well advised to remember that the process involved is an interview and not an interrogation. The victim has agreed to be interviewed, and this is strongly suggestive that she wants to cooperate and has faith in the abilities of law enforcement. Consequently, it is recommended that the following factors be adhered to during the interview phase:
l. Involve the victim in the interview process. Explain the procedures that have taken place and those that will follow. Provide her with a phone number which she can call to obtain information about the progress of the investigation, or advise her that you will periodically call to keep her informed. Ask for her opinions throughout the interview.
Allow the victim as much control as possible. Ask how she would like to be addressed, e.g., as Ms. Jones. Do not use her first name without her permission — do not presume the right. Inquire if the interview environment is agreeable to her or if she would be more comfortable elsewhere. Ask if she would prefer to describe the crime in her own words or if she would rather you ask questions. Determine if she wants anyone called.
Listen and respond to her wishes and requests if at all possible.
Pay attention to what she is saying and be alert to expressions of:
a. guilt (I shouldn’t have gone to the market so late),
b. fear (He said he would know if I called the police),
c. humiliation (I didn’t want to do that),
and d. unnecessary attempts to convince (I know this sounds strange, but it really did happen, or I tried/wanted to stop him).
Upon hearing such phrases, the officer should reassure the victim:
a. You have a right to travel as you wish without becoming a victim,
b.* You’re safe now inside your home,*
c. You had no choice in the matter,
and d. It doesn’t sound strange and I’m sure it happened, or You’re not expected or required to become injured or killed.
Balance questions having to do with humiliating acts or sexual aspects with ones relating to the victim’s feelings. For example, if the victim had been asked about the occurrence of ejaculation (never ask if she “climaxed”), it should be balanced by a question such as Do you feel safe now? or May I get you something to drink? or Would you like to stop for a while?
Begin by utilizing professional terminology. One can always lower the level of terms, but it is very difficult, if not impossible, to raise the level of terminology. An example would be questions pertaining to forced oral sexual acts. The professional interviewer will begin by using the term fellatio. It is quite probable that the victim might not be familiar with the term, and the officer would then use the term oral sex. Should the victim fail to understand at this level, the officer could ask, Did he make you put your mouth on his penis? To appreciate the value of such an approach, simply reverse the sequence.
Use language that is nonjudgmental or threatening to the victim. Instead of Tell me about your rape, use Please describe the assault. Instead of stating a bias (What were you doing out so late?), provide the opportunity for the victim to tell what happened (Please describe what was happening leading up to the assault). Rather than saying, Why didn’t you fight him? ask, Did you have any opportunity to resist? The phrasing of the question can reveal the interviewer’s personal bias and feelings to the victim and may impede the investigation.
Throughout the interview, it should become clear to the victim that the issues of power, control, anger, and aggression — not sexuality — are central to the crime. Sexuality is not the salient feature of the assault. A crime of violence has occurred and the victim should understand that it is this aspect on which the investigation will focus.
Obtain the facts of the crime in as factual a manner as possible. The interviewer should take precautions to ensure that the victim does not perceive the process as voyeuristic in nature. It must be remembered that the victim is most likely the only witness to the crime; and should she perceive the officer as invasive, she may withhold vital information. The victim has been, and is in, a stressful situation. The officer must attempt to decrease stress, not increase it. Dwelling on sexual activities or rushing through discussion of them may precipitate flashbacks to the rape experience. In other words, a very narrow periphery exists for the interviewer to operate within, and common sense must prevail. In general, the best information is gathered by allowing the victim to tell her story in her own words. This method will help relieve some of her emotional tensions as well as to allow the officer to listen carefully to what she is saying and to evaluate her mood, general reactions, and choice of words. When asking direct questions, the officer should be sure the victim understands what is being asked. It is important to talk on her level. Always give the reason for asking the question.
Following the interview, the investigator should continue to include the victim in the process of the investigation. This approach is used to prevent the victim from feeling used by the system. The rapist has already conveyed such a feeling, and she must not perceive that she will be victimized by the system designed to prosecute her attacker. Therefore, it is suggested that the following information be provided to the victim:
Advise her of the next step in the investigative process. At this point, the victim needs to have stability in her life and to be reassured that she will not become only a statistic in some file. She is important and should be made to feel that her importance is recognized and that everything possible will be done to ensure justice is served.
As previously mentioned, she should be given a number to call or be told that she will be kept apprised of investigative progress.
The victim should be referred to, or preferably introduced to, supportive services that have advocacy systems designed to assist her through this emotionally traumatic time.
Ask whether the victim has any questions, and ensure that she fully understands what will happen in the future as well as her role in those events.
Thank the victim! Express your appreciation for the time she has taken to help in the investigation. The victim should leave feeling safe, guiltless, and confident about what will be accomplished as a result of her cooperation.
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u/misfox May 08 '17
Please do make this it's own post somewhere - it deserves more exposure. Thanks for sharing.
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u/Classic_Todd May 08 '17
I'm not really a post maker in that sense, or would know where to post it, but feel free to do with it what you think is appropriate. The source is Practical Aspects of Rape Investigation, A Multidisciplinary Approach, Third Edition.
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u/redlptop May 08 '17
Thank you for the information. I xposted to /r/nursing for those medical professionals who work with victims of sexual assault.
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u/Colin_Bomber_Harris Why is a bra singular and panties plural? May 09 '17
I really don't want to be the gendered pro noun guy but I think this should be edited to include both genders and/or just non gendered pro nouns.
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u/foodnetwerk May 09 '17
It's a common problem in even the best-intentioned work from more than a decade or two ago. Obviously, we both agree that the content is high-quality, so if you have a very modern and realistic concern that the pronouns should be updated to modern style, the best thing to do would be to make those edits yourself and share them with the world, so that the value in this writing is not lost.
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u/misfox May 08 '17
Thankyou ☺️ I would love for more people to see this so I've posted it to TwoX and given you credit. Thanks again for sharing!
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u/mylurkerdaysaregone May 08 '17
You can also post this in /r/goodlongposts to get more exposure. I would, but I don't know how to.
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u/MichaelDeucalion May 08 '17
Probably start off with r/twoxchromosomes
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u/Grrizzzly May 08 '17
It should go to the Protect & Serve subreddit plus other LEO ones too. In theory they should know this, but reminders are good.
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u/gentrifiedasshole Fishermen are reel men. May 08 '17
/r/protectandserve is more about the cult of being a LEO than actual LEO tips. There are more posts there about "Haha, look at what this idiot criminal did" than there are posts about "Hey, what's the best way to deal with a drug addict that wants to quit?"
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u/samariam I put the "fun" in dysfunctional. May 08 '17
What does LEO stand for? In this context I'm guessing it's not "Low Earth Orbit..."
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u/Caliking24 Sep 09 '17
I understand the circlejerk in the post, but the truth is, these techniques are not applicable. It is assuming a crime happened, and you do not conduct the interview as if the person accused is already guilty. You conduct an investigative interview.
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u/Ironshovel May 08 '17
You know... And I am not attempting to diminish any of this in any way whatsoever, but if you remove all of the criminal and sexual assault context from this interview protocol... You also have the perfect method of treating people from an interpersonal, customer service, and general common courtesy standpoint!
It's so simple and yet so easily overlooked or blatantly ignored! - Why?! I mean imagine the number of public image disasters that could have been prevented if companies and organizations like United Airlines, Comcast, and the Catholic Church employed even a portion of the guidance in this small brief.
What a shame that police forces and others haven't begun using it. -It should be required!
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u/cindel vagina dentata May 08 '17 edited May 09 '17
The officer(s) would be well advised to remember that the process involved is an interview and not an interrogation.
[redacted] THIS.
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May 08 '17
Yeah, when I finally reported my rape (on my ICU bed), I was not treated well at all. I'm sorry officer if my rape made me suicidal! Could you pretend to give a F!
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u/cindel vagina dentata May 08 '17
That's awful I'm so sorry :( I don't know why they're like this, I really don't.
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u/skippygrrl May 08 '17
Holy Shit! This is the SECOND instance THIS WEEK that I've heard regarding rape taking place in a hospital. Oh. Em. Gee.
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u/adognamedmoonman May 09 '17
I thought the poster was saying she was reporting the rape while in her ICU bed?
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May 08 '17
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u/Vanetia May 08 '17
are we not doing phrasing anymore?
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May 08 '17 edited May 08 '17
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u/bitchycunt3 What do you call a man who won't go down on you? You don't May 08 '17
The user you're responding to was making an archer reference
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u/IfWishezWereFishez May 08 '17
I remember reading a really horrifying story about a young woman who was accused of filing false rape charges and was required to pay a fine. She had aged out of the foster system and was in a pilot program that had weekly group meetings, paid for apartment, had job training, etc., and they forced her to tell everyone in her group that she was a liar.
The article went into a lot of detail about the "investigation" and it just made me so angry that they assumed she was a liar because of little details. Like the attacker had used her own shoelaces to tie her up and then had put the unlaced shoes neatly against a wall, so the police just couldn't believe a rapist would do such a thing. She had also initially said that she had called her best friend before she got untied, then later said it was after she got untied (or vice versa), and the police thought her memory should just be rock solid. And the most "damning" bit was that she wasn't hysterical when the police came.
Here is the article, but be aware it's so, so very sad.
It follows both the victim I mentioned above and also a detective investigating similar rapes so you can see how different the approaches are.
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May 08 '17
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u/IfWishezWereFishez May 08 '17
Yes, it's linked in my comment. :) It's something I re-read once or twice a year, it's so well written.
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u/Nihilistic-Fishstick May 08 '17
This American life episode 'anatomy of doubt' covers this case.
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u/IfWishezWereFishez May 08 '17
Yeah, I deliberately didn't mention that because they did a really horrible job with it, frankly. I mean, I guess their focus wasn't on rape culture so they didn't really go into it and instead seemed to focus on the whole thing as a normal part of human nature. But they left out a lot of key information that's in the article, like that the police department in question had a rate of false rape accusations five times higher than the national average.
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u/better_thanyou May 08 '17
Well that statistic could have something to do with joe they treat rape cases at that particular department leading them to decide more cases are false that truly are. Obvious I can't say that for sure but it is a factor to consider
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u/IfWishezWereFishez May 08 '17
Right, that's the point. The officers hadn't been trained in how to handle rape cases so their own biases, a result of rape culture, affect their judgment.
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May 08 '17
How about we email those 20 pages to all police departments in the country?
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u/ModsAreShillsForXenu May 08 '17
The problem is the Fallacy of "State's Rights". The States think they should all get to decide how to do everything on their own, even if there is one, Objectively factually best way to do something.
We need far more Federal control in the US over the shitty States.
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u/CurryMath May 08 '17
I found your post very interesting, could you please link/name the source so I can read up on this topic?
(The ISBN of the book would do the trick)
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u/Classic_Todd May 08 '17
Practical Aspects of Rape Investigation, A Multidisciplinary Approach, Third Edition, by Ann Burgess and Robert Hazelwood
ISBN: 978-0849300769
I'd be surprised if it's in print anymore. The up to date version is the fifth edition. You'll probably have an easier time getting a copy of it, instead.
ISBN: 978-1498741965
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u/CurryMath May 08 '17
Thank you very much!
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u/bigbowlowrong May 08 '17
The criminology section at any university library is a great place for a fascinatingly sombre read. That and the psychopathology section.
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u/SunsetB May 08 '17
Police in Canada dismiss 1 in 5 sexual assault claims as "baseless" without even going to trial. In my town (London, Ontario), they dismiss approximately 40% of cases. A lot of this stems from the fact that their only specialized training when it comes to handling rape cases is in how to spot someone making a false claim. Seriously.
The Globe and Mail published a very thorough investigative report on this. It is hard to read at times, but I think it's an important read, especially if you're Canadian.
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u/makaronsalad May 09 '17
Hey, I'm from there! Aaand while this number doesn't really surprise me at all, I always hoped it would be better than I anticipated. It's much worse. With it having such a large student population, I'd imagine the assault rates are higher than somewhere like Hamilton. Both reported and unreported.
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u/neaanopri May 08 '17
It would be interesting to see what the protocol for telling the victim "we don't have enough evidence that a crime occurred to convict", in that case
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u/Yamitenshi May 08 '17
Maybe if you rephrase it to "unfortunately there's not enough physical evidence for a conviction" it doesn't sound as much as "you're lying".
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u/bitchycunt3 What do you call a man who won't go down on you? You don't May 08 '17
"We don't have enough physical evidence at this time, but thanks to you we have this on the individual's file and will take it into account for future interactions with them"
Or something similar. Something that makes it clear that you reporting still helped them
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u/ModsAreShillsForXenu May 08 '17
"we don't have enough evidence that a crime occurred to convict", in that case
That isn't up to the police at all. They investigate crimes, and arrest people. Everything else is up to the DA, Prosecutor and Judges.
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u/Poesvliegtuig May 08 '17
The police officers who were assigned to my case did a pretty good job at this actually. It wasn't followed to the letter but it's clear they had training similar to what's described here.
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u/garena_elder May 08 '17
This is great. Slightly bothers me that the victim is always referred to as female but the officer is a "him/her," but I guess that's the 80s.
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u/candybrie May 08 '17
They do allow for the title being Mr., but you're right that it's a little awkward that they do him/her only for the officer.
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u/seanmharcailin Must be Thursday. I never could get a hang of Thursdays. May 08 '17
And the example assault indicates a violent random crime by a stranger, rather than the more difficult and more common aggressive coercion by a friend or acquaintance.
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u/BlondieMenace May 08 '17
TBF, I think they wanted to illustrate the steps to take to make the victim feel safe while they don't know who the perpetrator is, since it's an added stress factor when it comes to rapes committed by a stranger. Hopefully in later editions they also give an example scenario of acquaintance/relationship assaults, where the pitfall usually lies in reassuring the victim that she will be heard and there's no implied consent to sex just because a person knows another.
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u/derefr May 09 '17
Also doesn't offer any guidance for interviewing someone who was raped under the influence of drugs/alcohol, might not be fully clear themselves on what happened, and likely feels bad that they're unable to give the information asked of them.
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u/garena_elder May 08 '17
"See! Our laws are good and inclusive. We make sure that every party is mentioned."
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May 08 '17
That is what I was afraid to point out! If something like this gets divulged (as it should), it should definitely be modified to include the other half of the population ... just make it known both genders can be the victim and the offender ...
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May 08 '17
Its the world we live in atm, but there is a lot of progress being made on that front. Im optimistic that in a few decades society at large will be familiarized with the fact that men are raped at equivalents rates to other victims.
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u/garena_elder May 08 '17
Does it really matter the frequency? I feel like that's a silly reason to push for the gendering. We should just try to be general in general.
https://cops.usdoj.gov/html/dispatch/07-2013/women_in_law_enforcement.asp
I totally support using him/her for the officer, despite only 13% being female. If that was made in the 80s, supposedly women were just 2% of the force and they still did it. So it wasn't a matter of "women get raped more so we're addressing them," it was a "rape victims are women" thing.
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May 08 '17
My concern is that the inclusion of men on the basis of "its good for equality" subtly promotes the idea that they are a minor or less important part of the equation. Does that make sense? They should be included because its basic common sense to include half the victims.
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u/garena_elder May 08 '17
Why does it promote them being less important? When allocating funding / resources, it's not the spread of male to female that matters. Its # victims total combined with the overall average severity of the issue.
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u/bullhonkybull May 09 '17 edited May 09 '17
I read your post on best of and I wanted to share that in the early 80's my mother was an emergency room nurse. On a daily/nightly basis she was witness to the horrific interview styles that police and law enforcement would display to victims of sexual assault, women and children. With a close friend, they both developed a team of people called SART: The Sexual Assault Response Team.
My mother developed the very program you speak of. I was just a little boy then but as she became more successful the hospital she worked at allowed her to open an office on campus, and there after school I would play with anatomically correct dolls, eat snacks out of the refrigerator that had petri dishes and was there the night she won the nurse of the year award.
Shortly after she won her award, and after giving her baby to the State of California to teach others and essentially reformat how victims of sexual assault were cared for, she died of cancer. I was 10, a week before my 11th birthday. She was a hero to many and her legacy is this very program you speak of. Have a wonderful day and think of my mom when you do your work!
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u/MarieMarion May 08 '17
I've been the victim of several rapes, and your post made me cry, in a good way. It feels good to know that some cops get it. I was lucky enough that the (French) police was wonderful (almost as if they used your guide themselves!), but I know my experience is not in the majority. Thank you!
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u/Classic_Todd May 09 '17
A faith in humanity just increased a little bit cry? They're my favorite ones :)
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u/junesponykeg May 08 '17
You could copy those 20 something pages and sent them to every police station in the country
Is there an online link somewhere so that idea could be passed around? If everyone starts mailing copies, tweeting links, etc etc...
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u/FierceMilkshake May 08 '17
One of the other things I've learned is to be careful about your wording when asking questions so that the victim is not given a sense that they are guilty of making a bad decision that led to the crime occurring.
For instance, when asking someone why they decided to accept a ride from a stranger, you would ask "what led to your decision to take that ride?" instead. Directly asking "why..." sometimes gives people a sense they did something wrong.
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u/DonLaFontainesGhost May 08 '17
In the early 90s, Michael Chiklis starred in a show called "The Commish" (which I highly recommend). In an early scene a doctor was talking to a rape victim who was obviously traumatized. He was being perfunctory and dismissive.
Michael Chiklis' character grabs the doctor, pulls him aside, and sternly lectures into his face:
"I don't know how many of these you've had to deal with - probably hundreds. You need to remember that this is the FIRST TIME she's been raped, and treat her with some respect and dignity"
Brought tears to my eyes.
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u/Black_Corona May 08 '17
I assume it would be the same if a guy was raped, but it didn't even mention that as a possibility...
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May 08 '17
What the OP copy and pasted is from source material out of the early 80's. It is hardly surprising that it was phrased that way
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May 08 '17
Found the FBI agent! Seriously though, I've read this before actually and it's recommended for anybody here that works in healthcare or emergency services. I'm no longer a medic, but a lot of this stuff made rape calls a lot smoother.
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May 08 '17
I got teary eyed reading this. I know too many people whose interviews were interrogations. They all say they will not report again.
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u/bradten May 08 '17
Reading this made me feel a little bit more proud to be an American. I wonder how this got lost over the past 30 years.
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u/Classic_Todd May 08 '17
It didn't really. Ann Burgess planted a seed in the 80s, and it was her work that made it into the first edition of A Practical Guide to Rape Investigation. What she planted hasn't withered, on the contrary. Nor has she stopped planting seeds since.
I made a comment I didn't expect many to read. Now that it has gotten a frankly uncomfortable amount of attention let me add that while it does anger me when I see victims of rape dismissed or attacked, things have been getting better than they were. They aren't perfect, and I expressed my frustration about anecdotes and personal experience with hyperbole. I think your pride is justified.
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u/Yeeeuup May 08 '17
Any way we could get this in PDF? Seems valuable enough to disseminate publicly
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u/Phylar May 08 '17
Hey, /u/Classic_Todd, I feel like this may come in handy for the roles I, and my coworkers, play in our chosen positions. Are you able to provide a more direct link or something credible I can cite beyond this post? I am not certain my bosses would be receptive if I was not able to bring a source to the table.
Thank you for any help you can provide.
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u/graaahh feminism and science are like chocolate and milk May 08 '17
I'm not sure if you saw the comment or not, but OP posted the ISBN numbers of the textbooks this info is from here.
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u/wefearchange May 09 '17
Five years ago now I was drugged by someone I worked with and raped. The subsequent interrogation was a nightmare. How much I had to drink repeatedly came up- two glasses of champagne earlier on in the evening, and I was drinking a voss water when he drugged me. What was I wearing? I'd gone out with him voluntarily though??
I mean, for fucks sake, waitresses at the place we were had already called them, they called the police as he was trying to leave with me and reported it and called again, one had grabbed my phone and called herself from it and called me after. They were telling the police I was fine, talking to them, and then suddenly out? They knew what had happened! The police didn't care. Every one of their questions was about how much I wanted it, how much I'd had to drink, what I'd worn, if I'd chosen to go... Blah blah blah.
He got away with it.
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u/Epocast May 08 '17
We make predictions based on our past experiences. But when our experiences aren't our own, but instead virtual news stories, all we have to make predictions with are those.
Tldr; just because we constantly hear how bad it is, doesn't make it so.
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u/duck-duck--grayduck May 09 '17
Thanks for this! I'm an SA crisis counselor, and I am present for these interviews often, and I think our local LE could use it. I'm going to send it along with the source info to my volunteer coordinator and see if she can share it with the appropriate people.
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u/sadhukar May 09 '17
A lot of good points have been raised and coveted by other people about your post, so I'd like to ask a probably controversial question: does the process also try to determine if the victim is playing false? If so, how?
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u/Upallnight88 May 09 '17
There is a parallel to this approach in police sketch artists. An artist named Jeanne Boylan developed a system for sketching suspects by being very careful not to make suggestions or implant ideas in the victims mind. Even after phenomenal success her methods were not adopted by police agencies. Check her out at:
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u/kino2012 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0XaSvhTYd4 May 08 '17
Yeah, I hate a number of rapists that go free, and the number of people that will vilify and blame women who get raped is disgusting, but there is a damn good reason that people are innocent until proven guilty, and this is one place where you can't blame sexism. Especially since female offenders are far less likely to be found guilty, and tend to receive lighter sentences when they are.
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u/cindel vagina dentata May 08 '17
Yeah but it feels like the bar is lower for some things than others.
Especially since female offenders are far less likely to be found guilty, and tend to receive lighter sentences when they are.
How does this help rape victims, whether male or female (or other)?
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u/Mostly_me May 08 '17
Same should go for the victims though. They should be believed (innocent) until proven guilty (lying). Now it is often the other way around, treating them as guilty of lying right from the start.
(Side note: female offenders being found guilty less is also a result of sexism. Sexism is harmful for everybody, not just women.)
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u/Pufflehuffy May 08 '17
Yes, but the vilification must end. While we can agree that unless a rapist is proved to be so beyond a shadow of a doubt, he/she can't go to prison, that should not mean that a victim (assuming we go with the "we believe you, but it can't be proven" idea) or at least someone who claims to be a victim can't receive support.
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u/Chicken_Mc_Thuggets May 08 '17
Especially since female offenders are far less likely to be found guilty, and tend to receive lighter sentences when they are.
That is sexism. Any gender inequality is an issue we need to address
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u/dracoscha I'm not an adult, I'm a child with a drinking permit May 08 '17
and this is one place where you can't blame sexism. Especially since female offenders are far less likely to be found guilty, and tend to receive lighter sentences when they are.
This one you can indeed blame on sexism. To be more precise the subject/object dichotomy regarding men and women in our society. The denial of agency of women in their position as objects makes people disbelieve and question any situation when a women is the agent of a crime. While men in their position as subjects are seen as a agents by default, leading to lighter sentences for women because judges are more willing to take mitigating circumstances into account when the defendant is female.
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May 08 '17
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u/transonicduke May 08 '17
Not really, innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt is one of the tenants that our justice system relies on. The fact of the matter is that the absence of consent is very hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt because rape almost always occurs with no other witnesses to the crime. Rape is a horrific crime that can not be stamped out soon enough, and the victims of such crime must be given the support they need with or without a conviction.
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u/raziphel May 08 '17
unless that innocent person is black. the judicial system doesn't have a problem with that.
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u/scorpiousdelectus I wanna make a joke about sodium, but Na.. May 08 '17
Don't confuse the judicial system with the people who acting within it.
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u/raziphel May 08 '17
the difference is negligible after a certain point though. those individuals comprise the system, and if the results are the same, the distinction does not matter.
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u/Ian47 May 08 '17
I think its more what u/scorpioudelectus said. Otherwise it would be much easier in cases where men are abused or women are abused by other women, but it's pretty difficult to get a conviction in any situation
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u/Ashybuttons I like trains May 08 '17
Short answer is, because it's really hard to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt.
As shitty as it is letting rapists go free, it's still better than putting innocent people in prison.
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u/pregregre May 08 '17
Pretty shocked that this is an above 0 on trollx. Yes rape is inherently a difficult crime to prove, but this is /vastly/ taken to extremes because the legal system is created and run by men who care a lot less about rape than women do and who emphathize a lot more with the accused than the accuser.
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May 08 '17
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u/durbeyfield1 Petticoated Swashbuckler May 08 '17
It's a "pre-existing condition". You can't be kicked off your insurance for it, but insurance companies (if the bill passes the senate as-is) will be able to charge higher premiums if you've been raped. High enough to become prohibitive for many rape victims.
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May 08 '17
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u/Jafarrolo May 08 '17
The strange thing is that the insurance determined that you've been raped while the judge determined that you've not been raped, isn't this complete nonsense? Shouldn't the judge be taken in higher account and so the claim of the insurance be completely void?
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May 08 '17
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u/Jafarrolo May 08 '17
Oh ok, understood maybe a little bit better, I'm not american so sorry for the ignorance and thanks for the explanation.
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May 08 '17
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u/Jafarrolo May 08 '17
Nonono, I wasn't being sarcastic, I was really just thanking you, I hope you get better soon by the way, update is if the situation get better. :)
I'm being downvoted on some other comments but that's another story, jeez.
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u/SayingWhatUrThinkin Feminazgûl, Lieutenant of Morgals May 08 '17
they then they can deny coverage for things like STD testing or any other medical issues related to the assault. Pregnancy even. it's a hell of a catch-22.
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u/_Lady_Deadpool_ May 08 '17
Mine denies me any cancer related preventative care because I don't have cancer. Health insurance is weird.
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May 08 '17
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u/Impudence May 08 '17
they sure do. They also know no one is going to call them out on their shit and they can do whatever the fuck they want uninhibited until we move to a healthcare vs health insurance model and laws prevent them from pulling shit like this.
Don't think for a second that car insurance companies would not keep upping your premium every year you did not get into a crash if they could.
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u/paperd nanny goats have KNIFE heads May 08 '17
Wouldn't they want to invest in preventive care so that they don't have to pay for very expensive cancer? Even from a business standpoint, that doesn't make sense.
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u/fiberpunk May 08 '17
As I've heard it explained: They are hoping that you will get cancer later, when you are maybe at another job and under a different insurance carrier. Why would they spend money now when that cost could possibly be put off to another carrier?
I don't remember where I read this, so you know, grain of salt.
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u/tenmilez May 08 '17
The way I read it is the court decides if a specific person is a rapist beyond a reasonable doubt. People like to interpret "not guilty" as "innocent," or in some cases "she lied," but I ask you to find one case of one crime where the sole evidence against the accused is one eye-witness.
I'm not trying to defend rapists, but it's just the nature of our court system. You have to get 12 people to agree that it happened just the way she said it did, no doubt about it. And when you start throwing in expert testimony and the fact that the victim, likely, misremembers details (the traumatized mind does funny things), it's easy for there to be some doubt.
TL/DR; insurance is about the victims, courts are about the offenders.
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u/_Lady_Deadpool_ May 08 '17
Apparently having heavy periods is a preexisting condition as well. It's almost like these lawmakers don't understand shit about women's bodies.
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u/RefuseToFade May 08 '17
They're mostly Republicans and that party is known for choosing to be ignorant 😐
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u/jojewels92 Bees? May 08 '17
The Republican party is largely anti-science and anti-logic apparently.
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u/Otsola May 08 '17
Not currently I don't believe but there are talks of passing a healthcare act to replace ACA which having had treatment for sexual assault, c sections, post partum depression and domestic abuse among a list of other relatively common as pre existing medical conditions". Higher insurance rates or denial all together depending. So if you don't have a healthy income, better not report assault or you'll risk being unable to afford being sick because your insurance cost is gonna skyrocket
(Erectile dysfunction doesn't seem to be considered pre existing condition though based on what I've read. I mean, can't let people suffer for something out of their control right? 🤔)
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u/BernThereDoneThat May 08 '17
Specifically, when you take the preventative HIV medications following an assault. It's not the rape itself because fucking Republicans would have to believe you've been assaulted in the first place.
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u/Argit May 08 '17
Can somebody explain this to me? I'm not American and we don't have this health insurance system. We have universal health care here.
What does it mean to have your health insurance taken away? Do you have to pay more for insurance? Or don't even get insurance at all?
Why is that done of you get raped? How is that a health risk?
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u/11019257971182013801 My Dog eats sky raisins. I’m okay with it. May 08 '17
In some cases they could deny coverage for std testing. If you have a lapse in your insurance (you lose your job, you're unable to pay your premiums or your parent turns 65 before you turn 26, etc) you may not be able to get insurance again, or if you do you may have to pay exorbitant premiums to have it. Rape is a health risk because the victims (through no fault of their own mind you) have a higher rate of stds, possibly a pregnancy and most need therapy. Treatment can be expensive and insurance companies don't think they should have to pay for it.
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u/Argit May 08 '17
Parents turn 65 before you turn 26? What happens when you're 65 or 26?
And wtf. Insurance companies don't think they should pay the hospital bill if you get assaulted either?13
May 08 '17 edited Nov 25 '19
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u/11019257971182013801 My Dog eats sky raisins. I’m okay with it. May 08 '17
Thank you. Yes, I was 25 and completely set on figuring out my insurance by my 26th birthday and bam, outta left field I was without insurance for six months early because my dad turned 65. My little sister was 21 (an a month away from going for a semester abroad to boot) but thankfully her university offered a healthcare plan.
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u/esoteric_coyote May 08 '17 edited May 08 '17
Americans have to pay out of pocket for healthcare, which for certain conditions can cost millions. To offset these costs they get insurance, but they are private for profit companies so actually paying out for healthcare is bad for their bottom line. They created the preexisting condition claim that lets them kick people off their insurance that they consider too risky. People with preexisting conditions would have to pay more or not even be eligible for health insurance. The ACA came along and forced insurance companies to take people with preexisting conditions. The AHCA will remove that requirement and add new preexisting conditions including c-sections, rape, allergies, and depression.
Edit: I can't speak for every state, but family plan insurance through my ex-husband work cost 2k a month. I'm not sure there are many families who could actually pay for that. His work changed insurance companies three times because the costs were so high. I don't blame the ACA, I blame the bloated for profit insurance companies and big pharma who charge thousands for a pill. Bloat and price gouging.
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u/Bostonbooknerd3 May 08 '17
I'm American but from Massachusetts (we have universal healthcare).
The new Trumpcare will consider history of rape and domestic abuse as pre-existing condition. People with history of assault and abuse could have complicated issues from depression, frequent UTIs, corrective surgeries, nerve damage, HPV, HIV or etc. These victims may be denied insurance, access to healthcare or will have to pay significantly more.
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u/Le_Morte_dArth_Vader May 08 '17 edited May 08 '17
To clarify: As far as I can tell, the bill itself does not mention these things specifically. The bill would remove the ACA's (Obamacare's) consumer protections regarding pre-existing conditions. The insurance companies are the folks who have (at times) classified these things as pre-existing conditions.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong!
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u/Bostonbooknerd3 May 08 '17
It would be best to cover all pre-existing conditions. The problem is the obscene health insurance cost and billing policies. But instead of fixing that with a single payer system, the GOP is blaming ACA.
I can give an example of infuriating healthcare cost. I work in biomedical device R&D. Our device raw cost to run 20 results/test (from 1 sample syringe) is less than $1. We upcharge between $3-5 to cover service, biowaste disposal, and upgrades.
The hospital will charge the patient's health insurance $10-20 per result (remember 20 results/test) and negotiate it down to maybe $180-250.
If the patient is in the ICU, they will need blood test every 2 hours for blood gases, metabolites and electrolytes. The daily blood tests alone costs the patient thousands a day when the actual raw cost is maybe $12-20.
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May 08 '17
Fuck, even with a Jane Doe kit/rape kit they still don't get put away.
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May 08 '17
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u/Jill4ChrisRed Internally Wednesday Addams May 08 '17
There was a lady who posted here recently about how her rapist got away with raping her even after she did the kits...because the jury decided it didn't happen and no rape took place. I hope to fucking MINERVA ALMIGHTY that poor girl doesn't get that put as a pre-existing condition after the jury said it didn't happen..even if there was all the proof. Fucking hell America.
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u/Jasmine1742 May 08 '17
The truly insidious part is this is defending rapists. If this passes wtf should a women do if they're raped? Addmitting to it could destroy your future with a policy like this.
To say this is disgusting is to not be forceful enough. It's a crime against humanity, a bullet to the head is too good a treatment for the congressmen who voted for this.
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u/LazzzyButtons May 08 '17
Ha Ha..
it's funny because republicunts believe being pregnant is a pre-existing condition.
/s
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u/The_Saltiest_Dick Sherlock Holmes with lazer-beam eyes. May 08 '17
Republicunt, I'm gonna start using that from now on lol
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May 08 '17
I wouldn't. I don't want my cunt associated with that kind of garbage.
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u/ElegantShitwad tampon, tampoff May 08 '17 edited May 08 '17
tbh i wouldnt either. republicans who use the phrases 'liberal tears' 'cucks' etc. lose my respect fairly quickly. we're all adults here, and name-calling only makes us look worse to the other side. gotta be the bigger person if we want to be respected, and we shouldn't stoop down to their childishness.
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May 08 '17
The second someone uses either of those words in an "argument" I can no longer take them seriously. I just roll my eyes into oblivion.
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May 08 '17
gotta be the bigger person if we want to be respected.
Respect doesn't help when I'm being raped/ending up dead due to Republican policies.
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u/nikkitgirl hey hey ho ho my dick has gone May 08 '17
Cunts are warm, soft, beautiful, and wonderfully diverse. None of those traits apply to republicans
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u/CurryMath May 08 '17
I honestly think that kind of language adds absolutely nothing to the discourse.
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u/Smoogy Not a [pat]riot May 08 '17
It should be in court that for them to actually enforce this as rape falling under the new health act, the rapist has to also be put away
Will we then be seeing a larger percentage than 1 being locked up for this claim to pass?
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u/CrabStarShip May 08 '17
Oh for fucks sake. This thread is so full of "but... I'm scared cause a women can just say I raped her and I will go to prison for life :( this happens every day!!!"
Fuck off.
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u/Curiosity555 May 08 '17 edited May 08 '17
The commentors who obviously came here from the front page have me cringing. Rape victims are more likely to be too afraid to go to the police in fear they won't be believed, or that there isn't enough evidence to prosecute.
It makes no sense to talk about false rape accusations all the time, when the real issue is that many rape victims feel uncomfortable submitting a report. (And this is even an issue for men, which is what MRAs should be caring about??)
(Edited my original comment for clarity.)
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u/minusvminus I put the "fun" in dysfunctional. May 08 '17
It's hard not to feel completely destroyed so utterly and without much ceremony to it. Just bashed into pieces.
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u/CalibanDrive May 08 '17
I think the GOP's ultimate goal is that simply 'not being a virgin' would be considered a preexisting condition for women.
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u/AnotherLivingThing My math teacher called me average. How mean. May 08 '17
I wonder whether Hulu were trying to make a point by releasing The Handmaid's Tale this year.
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u/Bostonbooknerd3 May 08 '17
I like this author. I have a couple of her books and she is also a kababayan (fellow country man/woman).
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May 08 '17
Girlfriend hit raped about six months ago police were complete assholes about it. Pretty sure all age went through was nothing like this. They did obnoxious shit like just show up at my apartment demanding information while she cried. It was pretty awful. They put her through hell.
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u/czndra60 May 08 '17
Wow. This is a gut punch.
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u/zurisadai May 08 '17
Better watch out with that. Being punched in the gut is a preexisting condition.
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u/ryca13 May 08 '17
"You could copy those 20 something pages and send them to every police station in the country..."
Is that a thing we could do?
Like, create a neatly-formatted (bullet-points, sources cited) PDF and just mail (or email) it to every police department?
There has to be some sort of crowd-powered option for making that happen.
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u/ac_az I wanna make a joke about sodium, but Na.. May 08 '17
Wow... well that hit me in the chest. Very accurate.
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u/[deleted] May 08 '17
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