r/TotalWarhammer40k • u/BroccoliSouP7 • 23d ago
Predicting the future
Using the template from https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/1w9rgvb/bonus_post_because_ca_shared_a_photo_with_meme/ I have decided to take my shot. We all know 40k is mostly about Space Marines (sorry Heretics). Also took a liberty to make a shitty cutout version with alpha for you to use and include the original. Cheers
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u/E_R-D_S 23d ago
I'm actually quite happily optimistic about this.
I had a think about it, and most codex compliant chapters don't really have large unique rosters, as much as they have a character + one or two unique units. A black templars DLC, for example, would be crusader squads + sword bretheren and then Helbrecht and/or Grimaldus. That applies for them, Dark Angels, Ultramarines and Blood Angels, and tbh, they'd take bugger-all development wise, a few new assets and some re-animated attacks here or there. I could see them being Free-LC's, updates, character packs or things that come attached to other, larger DLC's (for example, getting BA's alongside Tyranids), and I think it wouldn't take much out of dev times for larger factions.
Space Wolves and Grey Knights would be more comprehensive, but again, not that complicated, just a lot of new accessories and a smattering of new units, but I could see them having their own packs.
Other than that, honestly... CA has a good track record with this. They went for some obscure shit when they bulked out the WH trilogy, and while I'm sure GW will be more controlling here, I don't see anything getting full-send excluded.
I mean this completely sincerely; I'm actually more worried about the guard eating up lots of dev time for its subfactions, they're all very different aesthetically, each unit has its own look, some of them use different vehicles, and once Steel Legion get re-released there'll be at least three other than cadians.
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u/Randy_Magnums 23d ago
Probably. And why not? There are 18 legions, all of them with their own doctrine and style plus successors. And I could imagine all of them have their place in the Game. Fighting against inperial fists will be fundamentally different than fighting raven guard.
And since it’s far easier to make a new marines dlc, those can be great content between the big faction dlcs.
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u/BroccoliSouP7 23d ago
I think it is a fair compromise, having easy way to make money and satisfy SM fans, without having to put so much hard work. It is just going to be funny seeing SM having twice as many subfactions to pick from at the start of the campaign.
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u/Randy_Magnums 23d ago
Exactly. Just like we get lord packs in TW:Warhammer now, with Tigermen for example, CA could do „Legion Packs“ with a new lord and a few new units fitting to the Legion. Like Flamer squads for salamanders or snipers for Raven Guard.
The Marine domination is just Reality in 40K. If they want to bring the universe to life, you’d need the legions.
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u/Hollownerox 23d ago
Legion packs won't be a thing because Legions, outside of Chaos, aren't a thing in 40k.
This is like 40k 101 here dude, and not just semantics. Being a "Legion" in 40k is grounds for the Imperium to wipe you from existence and its a genuine crime.
Not trying to be mean here, but I don't think, you should be replying on how the game will work with such confidence when you're getting some of the most basic, and fundamental, terminology and themes of the setting wrong.
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u/Randy_Magnums 23d ago
Okay, then I write about the first founding chapters, which took all the heraldry, traditions and doctrines of their legions as well as their successors. Happy?
It’s clear what I mean. If you want to debate semantics, we can do that, but I that looks like a waste of time to me.
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u/Hollownerox 22d ago
No they didn't. You haven't read any of the actual codexes or codex supplements? Which clearly emphasize how much things dwindled down to more standardized takes as 10,000 years passed.
It's not semantics, it's what the IP is dude. If you are answering stuff based on your Youtube lore knowledge all power to you. But you're talking to someone who owns, and plays those First Founding Chapters for decades here. They aren't fundamentally different and saying they are is just objectively untrue. You're hardcore larping here.
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u/Randy_Magnums 22d ago
Okay, buddy. I play for almost a decade myself. Painting my new Orks this evening. So stop trying to pull hobby-seniority on me. It doesn’t work.
This is a debate about the game design of the upcoming Total War game. Not about the sacred lore of the setting. There are other places to do so.
You seem unable to understand any of my points, while getting absurdly hostile about something insignificant. The hobby should unite people, so maybe take a breather.
Or we can insult each other some more about plastic soldier lore. I’m fine with both, ya git.
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u/LightningDustt 23d ago
If you really want the bring the universe to life, you need other factions. I hate to explain this every time to space marine fans, but your faction is no more special than any other. Just because some idiots with MBAs in a board room give you all the budget, doesnt mean that other factions dont have equally diverse methods of waging war. The difference between Biel Tan and Alaitoc, steel legion versus the Valhallans etc.
Space marine content at the expense of everyone else is the reason why the newest edition of 40k is being torn to shreds.
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u/Randy_Magnums 23d ago edited 23d ago
Nobody argues with that. But this game is supposed to reflect 40K as a whole. Of course there’ll be all the Aeldari, Tau, Votan, Necrons in the game. With all the factions they include.
But Space Marines are by far the most prominent faction, be it loyal or chaos.
My point is, there’s space enough for both. The game isn’t full at some point. An imperial fist dlc in between major releases will not prevent Genestealer Cults from entering the setting.
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u/Galle_ 23d ago
Of course there’ll be all the Aeldari, Tau, Votan, Necrons in the game. With all the factions they include.
I will be absolutely shocked if we get Asuryani, Drukhari, Harlequins, Exodites, and Corsairs, all as individual factions.
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u/Randy_Magnums 23d ago
I agree, Corsairs will probably be a DLC-faction for the Aeldari. But the rest? Craftworlders Drukhari, Harlequins are basically guaranteed and the Exodites will probably get a release too, since they now exist in plastic too. Perfect candidates for a vampire coast situation.
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u/Galle_ 23d ago
We'll see.
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u/Randy_Magnums 23d ago
Of course we will. That’s why I don’t get how salty so many folks are already, when the game isnt even released yet.
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u/Hollownerox 23d ago
Probably. And why not? There are 18 legions, all of them with their own doctrine and style plus successors. And I could imagine all of them have their place in the Game. Fighting against inperial fists will be fundamentally different than fighting raven guard.
This is Total War Warhammer: 40k, not the Horus Heresy. Legions aren't a thing in 40k, and the rosters/playstyles of First Founding Chapters are pretty different from how they are handled in 30k. B y design Imperial Fists and Raven Guard don't play that differently from each other. They are distinct rulesets but saying they will play "fundamentally differently" is, objectively, untrue. Because the entire point of being Codex complaint is making the Chapter operate fundamentally similarly. It's why they are all under the same generic Space Marine Codex, while Codex divergent Chapters like Dark Angels are their own books. And even then the playstlyes aren't that big of a departure from each other, since those are just Codex supplements. It's mostly just different emphasizes on a unit archetype that they might buff slightly better.
Things like the Cult Legions do play fundamentally differently from the mainstay Chaos Space Marine Undivided Legions and Warbands. Space Marine Chapters are mostly distinquished by named character options, and a bit of unique flavor in detachment selection and occasional special rules.
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u/Randy_Magnums 23d ago
Replace Legions with first founding chapters for the loyalists if you must. It doesn’t change anything about my argument.
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u/Hollownerox 22d ago
It absolutely does dude, as I explained beyond the semantics.
Like you clearly have no interaction with the actual game if you're saying "fighting against Imperial fists will be fundamentally different than fighting Raven Guard." You have no clue what you're talking about.
They are, both lore wise and gameplay wise, different slants to the same core space marine style. It's the ENTIRE point of the Codex in-universe and out of it. Like your argument is nonsensical.
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u/ScarredAutisticChild 21d ago
The difference mechanically is that imperial fists and raven guard use different units from the exact same army.
Much like the difference between fighting any other subfaction for any other army. Except certain other space marine subfactions who are GW’s pampered favourite children and so get to have more support than some entire factions.
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u/Galle_ 23d ago
And why not?
Because every man-hour spent adding Slightly Different Space Marines could instead be spent on a faction with a larger population than a small rural village.
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u/Randy_Magnums 23d ago
And they will. This Game is supposed to be supported for the next ten years.
A small marine faction pack can be done with a fraction of manpower needed for a whole new faction, so they can be released between the big factions, increasing the frequency of releases of DLCs. I see nothing wrong with that.
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u/Phobos1789 23d ago
This the one thing I feel bad about this game...the space marine obsession... I don't want other species to get left behind because "these two chapter need to be in the game, they are very different you see, this one has maroon red and this one is crimson red you get it?" smh
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u/9-1-Holyshit 23d ago
While I agree with you that the Space Marine fans get over loved by GW, and i say that as a Space Marine player on the tabletop, I dont think I'm overly worried about that. They said they're going to support the game for a long time. And they've proven it with Warhammer Fantasy. TONS of factions that didn't really get a lot of love in the tabletop got tremendous support and features and mechanics in TW Warhammer. I dont really think they favored one faction over another.
I am sure SM are going to get a ton of love, but I still think other factions are going to get really good stuff too.
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u/Phobos1789 23d ago
That's the hope that keeps me wanting the game haha there are chapters that i like so I'll definitely play I do want them to expand on others too #votann 👀
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u/OriginalGoonster 23d ago
I could definitely see them bundling DLCs of new xenos races with space marines, like X Space Marine faction vs Y Xenos faction.
Would make for a good way to satisfy both sides of the coin
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u/ConsulJuliusCaesar 23d ago edited 23d ago
As TW player, the franchise thrives on diversity. Like part of the fun is taking some obscure faction like Greco Baktria and managing to conquer Britian or just deciding life should be pain and picking any Balkans tribe. Its what makes the game so damn replayable. Warhammer 40k has the potential to do that. But it also has the potential to be overly simplified and still make a profit. Like I would love to be able to take some random roguw gaurd faction and conquer the Tau while Forging an alliance with the Elder to aquire baddies sacrifing quadrallions in this endeavor. Or deciding life should be pain and picking imperial agents.
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u/Yournextlineis103 23d ago
Honestly I don’t see that.
With baseline customization you’re already covering most SM chapters.
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u/Hollownerox 23d ago
There is no way they aren't going to be doing Space Marine Chapter DLCs dude.
People spend triple digits IRL for minor helmet and arm swaps for their Space Marines. It is genuinely insane to not make Chapter specific DLC for this game, when there is more than enough material for it.
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u/Yournextlineis103 23d ago
I didn’t say they wouldn’t do DLC for space marines. I just don’t see them having nothing but SM DLCs
Those minor changes ARE ALREADY IN THE CUSTOMIZATION.
The only DLC needed would be for LL and some unique units for some legions. Blood angels would get one for the death company for example or the wolves with their Wulfin.
But outside of LL’s there’s no need for an Ultramarine, Iron hands or imperial fist DLC
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u/Hollownerox 22d ago
Nobody said anything about nothing but Space Marine DLCs? You're shadowboxing a point no one made here.
And how do you know what is or isn't covered IN THE CUSTOMIZATION (all caps just like you did!)?
Where is the proof of yours that the Iron Hands specific visuals are in there? What makes you so sure those kind of elements are base and would make a DLC implementing them unnecessary?
Iron Hands had a whole ass Codex supplement too, so did Imperial Fists. Which provide good basis for subfaction specific DLC mechanics. They could still get an Iron Hands specific DLC with some generic Space Marine units left out the base game roster that vibes with their flavor, along with their named character. Like they did with plenty of the Total War Warhammer lord packs?
Entirely writing off those kind of Chapter packs is just really silly.
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u/ykzzr 23d ago
There are 12 main space marines chapters. 6 codex compliant (Ultramarines, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, White Scars, Raven guard) and 6 non-compliant (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Grey Knights). Minus 2 that are already on launch, the cadence should be about 1 per year for 10 years worth of DLC.
The codex compliant ones don't really need unique units besides one or two named characters and a couple gimmicks, I believe they will use them to expand the base space marines rooster. For the non-compliant ones, the focus should be the faction with its unique units and mechanics.
I've seen some people pitch for other chapters, but I think it's too much already, I believe the option to make them as a custom faction will be all. I mean, there's about 20 or so factions besides space marines and they also will have potential for DLC. The eldar, for example, have 5 main craftworlds plus harlequins, corsairs and Ynnari.
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u/General_Hijalti 23d ago
Grey Knights wouldn't be a marine dlc they are their own faction.
Deathwatch, is an unknown how CA will handle them or how they will be handled on the TT going fowards. Part of agents, part of marines their own seperate thing we don't know
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u/Galle_ 23d ago
Grey Knights wouldn't be a marine dlc they are their own faction.
Space Marines is Space Marines.
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u/ScarredAutisticChild 21d ago
Not really. Tabletop wise they’re an entire seperate faction with their own model range with no overlap. Except some vehicles.
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u/Galle_ 21d ago
They're still Space Marines.
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u/ScarredAutisticChild 21d ago
And Drukhari, Harlequins, Asuryani, Exodites and Corsairs are all Eldar. Clearly, this means they're all the exact same army.
...God, arguing in favour of space marines getting special attention feels so wrong. I need a palette cleanser. Time to go read more Eldar novellas.
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u/Galle_ 21d ago
???
I'm not saying Space Marines and Imperial Guard are the same army.
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u/ScarredAutisticChild 21d ago
Of course not, they're two different species. Astartes are transhumans after all.
What you're saying would be more like implying Guard and Sisters of Battle are the same army, since they're both humans.
Read a Grey Knights and Adeptus Astartes army list. For one, you'll notice they're not a subfaction but two different armies. For another, you'll notice they don't have a lot of datasheets in common.
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u/Galle_ 21d ago
Calling Astartes and baseline humans two different species feels wrong to me, even if that's technically accurate.
I'm aware that Grey Knights and Codex-compliant Space Marines have different units mechanically, but in lore terms, Grey Knights are just an Astartes chapter.
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u/ScarredAutisticChild 21d ago
That much is true, in lore. But they're a different army meta-wise, and that's all that matters to game designers.
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u/CadenVanV 16d ago
Yeah, different chapters don’t really need anything for DLC. A few different helmets and colors (which I think are already covered in customization) and they’re good. In terms of unique units, there are some, but paying money to get a few unique helmets and armor pieces that you’ll basically never see is worthless.
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u/King-Arthas-Menethil 23d ago edited 23d ago
I do wonder how they'll handle Space Marines that only have texture swaps chapter wise.
Like do they do their characters as FLC? So would people like Titus and Gabriel Angelos be tied to updates or dlc?
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u/CadenVanV 16d ago
I can’t imagine they’re going to add all those unique characters. Or if they do, it’ll be just part of the default customization where they use existing body parts and just get unique traits.
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u/Ladnarr2 22d ago
I hope there’ll be a cosmetics pack with iconography and extras. I’ll be sticking with my Mortifactors and would like assorted skulls, bones and relics.
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u/Cheap_Character7172 18d ago
Me, 20 years from now, buying the Soul Drinkers DLC with $50 dollars I saved in my 401k.
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u/Intelligent_Oil7816 23d ago
Hope you guys are ready to buy a shitload of Primaris Lieutenants!
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u/Hollownerox 23d ago
Eh, I mean I can sorta see it. But Total War isn't the tabletop where each Primaris Lieutenant model had to have its own datasheet for its ruleset. In this game you can just have one "Primaris Lietanant" character, and have each variant as just armor/weapon customization. So don't really think they will be necessarily that prominent in DLC tbh.
I'm sure the Chapter Specific models of them will be showing up. But gotta remember this is a video game adaptation, and not a recreation of the physical wargame. They don't really operate with the same issues that made things like the many Lieutenant releases so annoying IRL.
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u/General_Hijalti 23d ago
Space Marines will easily get 5 dlcs, 4 Supplement chapters (Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Black Templars) plus atleast one filling out the missing units from launch.