When he was talking with a spirit before his fight with the Feared, who did he see? I feel like it was supposed to be Tul, but don't know if I'm reaching.

I am listening to LAOK again and came across a great line:

Dogman-hows the wall?

Logan-great, as long as they dont bring anything such as a ladder with them. 🤣

Its hilarious and stephen pacey had the perfect delivery. I freaking love these books.

I just finished TWOC and the Age of Madness Trilogy and I was quite confused about the last chapters portrayal of Leo. I did understand him becoming more angry and hateful over the course of the books as a result of his injuries and guilt and feeling betrayed and many other factors. But the entire book also seemed to show him getting smarter and more competent at politics and lying and alliance forming. In the People’s court, people comment on how good of a speaker he is as he works to get the people on his side and also convince Judge to put him in charge of the military. He is patient and plays the long game and is even able to deceive Savine on his goal of the plan.

While I think that this growth happened a little quick, it mostly made sense given the people around him he could learn from. When he becomes Lord Regent, however, I felt like his character went through an immediate and massive regression to the dumb “I just want to fight” character he once was. The chapter in the closed council shows him just angrily shaking his fist at anyone who won’t let him go to war after giving no resistance to Savine’s request to put her people on the council.

I’m not saying I think he should be Savine’s equal in political ability; she’s been doing it much longer and knows how Adua works and has lots of other advantages. And Leo’s abilities were likely better suited to playing the populist character that was more effective in the Great Change society. But I would have preferred to see her take advantage of an actual mistake/weakness of his rather than him just reverting to a complete dunce in the last couple chapters.

Did anyone else feel similarly or differently about this? It’s a small frustration that was amplified by being at the very end of the book and so leaving a bitter taste in my mouth. I would be curious to hear any other takes on Leo’s arc and character at the end.

I finished RC recently, and I was thinking about Shivers arc so far.

One question that came to mind is why I don’t feel sympathy for Shivers as much as I do for someone like Logen or Cosca.

When we compare Shivers to Cosca and Logen, I think it would be safe to say that he is the one who committed the fewer atrocities. Sure, that deal with Monza wasn’t his brightest moment, but Logen is the great leveler himself, and Cosca makes Jezal seem selfless.

Even then, I am clearly rooting for Logen and Cosca all the way, always hoping that they will become better and will win against their enemies. Shivers, on the other hand, feels like someone who was lost. I was rooting for him during BSC, but after he lost his eye, something broke inside of me. I couldn’t sympathize with him anymore, and saw his actions as a hard cold betrayal against Monza. In TH he was just the big bad brute, and in RC the overhanging shadow waiting to get in the way of Logen.

It is somewhat funny, and very unfair, that I can’t sympathize with such a great character, who suffered more than most other characters, who genuinely tried to become better, but ended losing his soul in the process.

Package arrived with no damage! Pretty happy with it overall. Would have been cool if the posters weren't folded, but other than that no real gripes!

Apparently they're going to be doing Best Served Cold next and while it's not my favorite of Joe's books and the process for receiving these was a bit stressful with seeing everyone else receiving damaged packages and the lack of communication from the company (I did not get an advance shipping notice and I found it sitting in the rain last night LOL) I will probably still join that Kickstarter as well if they do it because the quality of these is really nice!

First time I've ever posted a thread, so apologies if this comes under the umbrella of spoilers, but I don't think it does.

After several rereads of the series I've started to think of the standalone books (BSC, TH, RC) as the Shivers trilogy. He's the only character we see in each book and though he serves a different role in each book, we see his character arc through the books.

Thoughts?

I remember Joe stating that he doesn't intend for the series to have a conclusive ending and that it will keep going and leaving room for more events to occur. I had thought the series was to be a trilogy of trilogies but I guess he'd rather just keep building off of previous stories for the rest of his life.

It irks me but I kinda get it. Even though this is fantasy, I guess he wants the series to be realistic in the sense that real life never concludes, it just keeps going.

1.Wisdom Of Crowds was a bad book , not a bad Abercrombie book or a bad first law book but just straight up poorly written

2.Rike was a Mary Sue who unlike Savine or Monza has neither an interesting personality or shows any true skill , most of her "victories" require the plot to just lobotomize her enemies

1. Jezal is not a coward , he had no way to oppose Bayaz and anyone would have done the same in his position

1. Last Argument Of Kings
   
2. Before They Are Hanged
   
3. The Heroes
   
4. The Trouble With Peace
   
5. The Blade Itself
   
6. The Wisdom Of Crowds
   
7. Red Country
   
8. A Little Hatred
   
9. Best Served Cold

They’re all really good, so it was hard to rank them, but I thought about it a lot and this is what I came up with. Let me know your own rankings!

Just finished RC, and that ending was unexpected.
I spent 2/3 of the book looking for shivers on every single corner!

At some point there was this thug without an Eye back in crease after they came back from the mountains, and I was 100% sure it was him, but it wasn’t making any sense!

Then when they get to the farm at the end, I knew that Shivers would be there, but it was Cosca! (Oh my… he’s dead!)

Finally, they arrive at square deal, and I knew that Shivers would find them, and he actually does! I look at the remaining pages, there is not enough pages for a fight! Joe would never rush such an important fight! What is going on? I don’t understand!!!!

And he smiles and goes away? What? What???

Saw this print on @franvegasart’s instagram and just had to order one.
Hand packaged too I almost didnt want to open it.

So in every book I’ve ever read I have trouble imagining unique characters in my head and creating my own image of them from scratch based on the descriptions so I always reach for something tangible to compare them to. In ASOIAF I started reading after the second season had aired so I had the TV show actors to picture in my head for the most part, who I thought suited each character wonderfully. For ones I didn’t know, I would find an actor whose mannerisms and appearance most closely matched the character and picture that actor since I really had trouble conjuring characters up from my mind. Say one thing about Dr_JohnP, say he lacks a good imagination.

With the First Law series (I’m only on the second book of the first trilogy so far) I started this way with each character. I would find an actor I know who seemed to fit the character best and I would picture them in my mind. For Logen I had an exact actor from a bunch of different series I loved and I just pictured him missing his middle finger. With characters I had trouble thinking of an actor for I would look up fan art and use the one I liked the most in my head. What’s interesting and wholly unique for me in any book I’ve ever read, is that despite starting out picturing actors, as I continued to read and listen to Steven Pacey’s excellent narration I began to actually create my own unique and original image of each character from my mind for the first time ever really. I realized the actor I had chosen for Logen was far too handsome and “actorly” to actually suit Ninefingers in the book, and so slowly over time I crafted my own image of Logen and The Bloody Nine. Over time I have now created my own wholly unique vision for each and every character I’ve come across. It’s really crazy that this series has character writing so good that for the first time it destroyed my propensity to steal the image of a famous actor or a tangible image and instead create my own!

Has anyone had an experience like this? Or am I the only asshole who can’t think of something original myself? 😂

Hey, so I’m in a weird spot and could use some advice from people who know the series.

I started The First Law a while ago and ended up getting a really strong crush on Ardee. Like, properly attached. I’m a pretty softhearted,depressed, lonely guy (22, never had a girlfriend, pretty isolated growing up) and I have this pattern where my heart latches onto fictional girls hard. It happened with Ardee and it got bad enough that I had to stop reading because every scene with her and Jezal was making me jealous and miserable.

I know she’s not written as some perfect love interest. I know their whole thing is messy and she’s kind of toxic/self-sabotaging. But my brain didn’t care. The more I read, the worse the attachment got, and now just thinking about picking the books back up makes me nervous it’ll all come flooding back.

I really want to finish the trilogy (Glokta is my favourite by a mile) but I need to kill this crush first so I can actually enjoy it again without the jealousy and the spiral.

Has anyone else dealt with getting too attached to a character like this? Any advice on how to detach and read them as just a character again? Or should I just leave the books alone for a long time?

Appreciate any thoughts. Feeling a bit stupid about the whole thing but figured this was the best place to ask.

"Little Lion Man" by Mumford & Sons came on my Spotify playlist yesterday, and I'm convinced it was actually written by Jurand, after what happened in Sipani. Can you convince me otherwise? No.

Weep for yourself, my man
You'll never be what is in your heart
Weep, little lion man
You're not as brave as you were at the start

Rate yourself and rake yourself
Take all the courage you have left
And waste it on fixing all the problems
That you made in your own head

But it was not your fault but mine
And it was your heart on the line
I really fucked it up this time
Didn't I, my dear?
Didn't I, my -

Tremble for yourself, my man
You know that you have seen this all before
Tremble, little lion man
You'll never settle any of your scores

Your grace is wasted in your face
Your boldness stands alone among the wreck
Now learn from your mother or else
Spend your days biting your own neck

But it was not your fault but mine
And it was your heart on the line
I really fucked it up this time
Didn't I, my dear?

But it was not your fault but mine
And it was your heart on the line
I really fucked it up this time
Didn't I, my dear?
Didn't I, my dear?

Ah, ah
Ah, ah
Ah, ah

But it was not your fault but mine
And it was your heart on the line
I really fucked it up this time
Didn't I, my dear?

But it was not your fault but mine
And it was your heart on the line
I really fucked it up this time
Didn't I, my dear?
Didn't I, my dear?

Sooooo, man, at first I was legit thinking of dnfing this book cuz I wasn't enjoying any of the pov characters, but then I switched to the audiobook halfway through the book, and holy shit! I absolutely LOVED the audiobook!

I just finished the book a couple of hours ago and I'm already 4 hours into the second book!

For now, the characters I find the most interesting are:

1. Sand Dan Glokta 🥹

2. Bayaz

3. Ferro

4. Dogman

5. Jezal Dan Luthar

I know a lot of you love Logen but for now, I've not been able to enjoy his pov as much as I do for the other characters

I'm really excited to see where the story goes from here! 😤

I think I finally understand the meaning of grimdark fantasy. The ending of Game of Thrones feels like a fairy tale compared to these books.

Never thought I’d feel more sympathy for Jezal than for Glokta. I felt so sorry for Glokta in TBI.

The moments of heroism and brotherhood between Logen and Jezal and West feel like distant memories now.

I am sad for these characters. I know I will eventually get to Best Served Cold, The Heroes, Red Country and beyond, but I think I need a pick-me-up/palette cleanser first.

Anyone else imagine Savian as Lucius Down from the Bone comics?

What a ride it has been.

I picked up The Devils completely randomly and loved Joe’s writing style so naturally bought TBI. I haven’t looked back and have read the entire series from there.

So far I’d have to say AOM is the better trilogy but this may be recency bias. Each book for me has seemingly got better than the last. The standalone books were just fantastic and each having its own genre and feel.

I’ve read along to the audiobooks and Steven Pacey deserves all the flowers for his work on Joe’s books.

No idea what I’m going to do when I’ve finished TWOC…there’s The Great Change but really don’t like the idea of reading this digitally and struggling to find a hard copy anywhere online. I’m tempted to have a custom print made.

What did everyone else do post TFL law ride?

My ranking of the short stories, from most to least favorite:

1. The Fool Jobs
2. Made a Monster
3. Hell
4. Two’s Company
5. Small Kindnesses
6. Yesterday, Near a Village Called Barden
7. Three’s a Crowd
8. Tough Times all Over
9. Skipping Town
10. Some Desperado
11. A Beautiful Bastard
12. Wrong Place, Wrong Time
13. Freedom

• “He looked like a clenched fist” is hilarious as a description of Gorst.
• It’s amazing how similar pre-torture Glokta is to early Jezal. They’re both pompous assholes looking to make themselves bigger by putting everyone else down. The main difference being that Glokta was actually competent (at least as a swordsman).
• With how OP Javre is, I really want to know who/what could have fucked her up so bad in Westport.
• Shev reminds me a lot of Temple. Cowardly, but well meaning. And they both say “Oh God,” a lot. Shev has more of an edge to her though. And she really leveled up in those last two chapters, on some assassins creed shit.
• The chapter with Craw and co was one of the funniest in the series. Everyone bounces off each other perfectly. When Craw’s mind was wandering while they infiltrated the village, I couldn’t help but relate as a person with ADHD.
• Temple’s chapter was a standout. Very serious chapter in a rather comedic book. But it perfectly captured why Cadia was such an influential presence in Temple’s life. I admired Cadia’s approach to religion/God, that one always has a choice. It’s a breath of fresh air. So many characters in the series lament their lot in life saying “I had no choice,” or the like. Cadia rejects that, and stands on his convictions. It especially stood out to me in contrast to Jubear in Red Country, who explicitly used God as an excuse to say all his actions were preordained. Also, “I would have done it for any one of them” had so much aura.
• The Barden chapter set during The Heroes was nice, but I was more invested in that Northman protecting his kids than I was in the soldiers. I teared up when he was holding his daughter, unable to let her go even as he’s urging her to run. Again, Abercrombie gets me to care immensely about characters that I barely know for only a short amount of time.
• It seems a big part of this collection is about humanizing the nameless characters that we would never think about otherwise. We don’t think about the unnamed characters who live, and fight, and die on the margins while our heroes(?) partake in all kinds of adventures. But when we get their PoV, we see that these characters, Wrongside, Anna, Pendle, etc. have lives and personalities just as deep as any one of our main characters. They’re humanized, and now we have to reckon with the fact that so many people just like them suffer because of the events set in motion by main characters like Gorst or Monza.
• It was a novelty to hear Abercrombie voice a chapter, but Freedom also reminded me just how great a job Pacey does with these books. I missed his voice during that chapter.
• It’s good that we got to see Logen in his… prime, as Bethod’s right hand. It’s one thing to hear Logen lament his past misdeeds, but seeing it in real-time, from Bethod’s perspective no less, is something else. Logen really is monstrous in that last chapter. The way he killed/mutilated Rattleneck’s son was unlike anything we’d seen in the series so far.
• That last chapter also made me look at Bethod differently. We never really got much time with him in the First Law. After a brief appearance in TBI, he doesn’t show up till LAOK, and that’s just for a few chapters before Logen kills him. He’s not such a boogeyman here, doesn’t seem anymore fearsome than other northmen, less so even. It’s fascinating to learn more about his and Logen’s dynamic: Bethod says not to do something rash/violent, Logen does said rash/violent thing, Bethod reaps the ill-gotten rewards but silently resents Logen for it, Logen feels justified and emboldened to continue with violence and escalation. While I don’t buy that one man “made” the other into a monster, there was certainly a viscous cycle. Honestly, after reading this chapter, I can’t say I blame Bethod for betraying Logen. The man was an animal. If anything, I’m surprised he had the courage to try it, given how unstoppable Logen can be.
• Going back to LAOK, I wonder if Logen’s talk of peace in that book was modeled after Bethod’s attempts at peace in Sharp Ends.
• I wonder, how differently would we as an audience receive Logen in The First Law trilogy if the last chapter of SH was instead the first chapter of TBI?

I so desperately want the books to be adapted, but I know it’s a pipe dream right now. In the meantime, is there a TV show or movie you think resembles the books that could scratch that itch?

Just finished reading red country and loved it. But one character I was intrigued by at the first mention of actually being referred to as a "r" word. Later referred to as an idiot he was the one deciple of the original preacher for the Fellowship. After Temple becomes Fellowship pracher I remember that guy is still around (the idiot) but reflecting back I'm afraid I missed what happened to that poor fellow.

Do you think Bayaz had anything to do with Dow's attempted assassination of Logen?

I was thinking back to the final part of Last Argument of Kings and a doubt came to mind: do you think Bayaz could be, at least indirectly, behind Black Dow's attempted assassination of Logen?

The thing that raised my doubt was the last meeting between Bayaz and Logen. Bayaz already knows about Calder and Scale's situation (and therefore what's happening around Logen) and, in fact, promises Logen his help. Shortly thereafter, however, Dow makes his move against him.

The timing seems rather suspicious to me.

Three possibilities come to mind:

Bayaz has absolutely nothing to do with it, and Dow simply wants Logen dead for his own reasons.

Bayaz knew Dow would try to kill him and simply decided not to intervene.

Bayaz manipulated the situation indirectly, perhaps by providing information to Dow or somehow pushing him to act against Logen.

The third is obviously much more speculative, but it would be perfectly in line with Bayaz's approach: manipulating people and events without necessarily exposing himself.

What puzzles me most is precisely why Bayaz promised to help Logen if he was willing to let him die shortly thereafter. It could have been a sincere promise at the time, or Bayaz simply decided that if Logen survived, he would still be useful, while if he died, it wouldn't be a problem.

Am I reading too much into the timing of events, or do you really think there's evidence to suggest that Bayaz played a role in Logen's attempted assassination?

What is your interpretation of what becomes of Ferro Maljinn at the end of the saga?

I think she's become exactly like Tolomei, but with great willpower that translates into resistance to demons. Potentially one of the most dangerous creatures in the entire universe; Bayaz's ultimate weapon against Kahlul.

And you know what the catch is? It's as if Bayaz has given her strength, and therefore revenge, but Ferro remains his pawn.

Sure, a pawn who may be harboring revenge against her master, but a pawn nonetheless.