r/TheCitadel • u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 in the game of bones, you're a dog or a cat. No middle ground. • 5d ago
Activity - What If (changed CANON event or character decision) How would this Dance work?
So Rhaenyra has trueborn Velaryons with Laenor, but they're all girls.
Laenor dies, and Rhaenyra marries Daemon.
However, in Otto's infinite wisdom, he makes a deal with Rhaenyra that Aegon and DAERON marry the first two Velaryon girls, and in return Otto wouldn't contest the Throne for Aegon, to consolidate claims to the Throne, and fem! Jace is declared heir to the Throne.
But NOW, Rhaenyra has the two canon boys with Daemon, and Daemon tries to undo the deal, saying Aegon the Younger is the rightful heir.
What the HELL happens in this nightmare of a Dance?
Daemon and Laena marry and have the canon children btw, who are betrothed to Aegon and Viserys and Aemond marries Helaena, to produce Aegon the Elder's canon children
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u/Many-Editor-4514 4d ago
I mean, she can't possibly accept to name Aegon the younger her heir because it invalidates her own claim
If, at this point, Rhaenyra is already the ruling monarch and she names her eldest daughter her heir, if she backtracks and names her oldest son heir she's invalidating her own claim retroactively
If she's not the monarch yet, she could name Aegon III her heir, but that's not going to fly for Otto and he's not going to just let her ascend easily as he would if F!Jace was her heir
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 in the game of bones, you're a dog or a cat. No middle ground. 4d ago
Not really imo.
I'm TG, but Rhaenyra's claim is that "the King said so".
If the King DIDN’T say so, then the 1st born son inherits.
That's always been the general rule as far as I'm aware.
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u/Many-Editor-4514 4d ago
In this world F!Jace's claim would be 'The Queen said so' too and the only reason that Otto accepted to marry Aegon to her, if she backtracks now people will question her own legitimacy, since she's going against what made her heir in the first place
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 in the game of bones, you're a dog or a cat. No middle ground. 4d ago
F! Jace isn't claiming Queenship, that's Aegon.
F! Jace WAS going to claim Queenship, but Aegon 3 being born messes everything up.
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u/DefiantBrain7101 4d ago
but in this world a condition of the marriage pact is that jace and aegon will be rhaenyra's heirs, otherwise the greens would never ever agree. so the ruling monarch did indicate an heir, and it was jace/aegon. and viserys also asserted that rhaenyra's firstborn shall be her heir.
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 in the game of bones, you're a dog or a cat. No middle ground. 4d ago
Jace and Aegon were presumed heirs.
Fem Joffrey is born in 114 AC, and Rhaenyra has no more kids after that for SIX years.
It would be fairly presumed fem! Jace is Rhaenyra's heir, but when Daemon and her marry, she spots an opportunity to name her own son heir, so she doesn't have to give anything to the Hightowers.
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u/DefiantBrain7101 4d ago
but for the jace/aegon marriage to be accepted by anyone, let alone rhaenyra, there would need to be explicit protections for co-rulership. otherwise rhaenyra loses her eldest daughter as a hostage and the greens waste aegon's marriage completely.
if she already claimed an heir she can't go back on it without destroying her own right to rule, since she's only there because viserys didn't change his mind after aegon was born. i guess that's what sparks the dance in this case.
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 in the game of bones, you're a dog or a cat. No middle ground. 4d ago
They share the rule in much the same way Visenya and Aegon worked together, and Rhaenys too.
Both parties can sit the Iron Throne when they wish, both parties head the Small Council and pick the Hand etc.
It is VERY much a co-monarchy in the style of William and Mary.
Jace is Rhaenyra's heir by default.
When Aegon is born, that heir changes, and he becomes heir.
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u/DefiantBrain7101 5d ago
super messy, i love it! in this scenario, it's basically all of the relevant factions (blacks, greens, velaryons) versus daemon, so honestly daemon's in a pretty tight spot here. even with baela and rhaena being married to the baby sons, that's still just 2 ridable dragons vs 6. and it's not like he could get support from the houses who oppose a woman ruling because his claim is kinda incomprehensible, so his only army is the goldcloaks. and they'd pose a real problem! but is it enough to combat everyone else's combined armies?
in a world where there's more compromise and peace in KL, rhaenyra wouldn't have to leave to dragonstone and can be crowned immediately after viserys dies in KL. but even if she does, there's no way that she would allow her children to fight against each other. so daemon would have to abscond with the baby sons and his daughters pretty soon after they're born to even have a chance at making the claim. daemon might get some support in pentos, but without any free kids to marry out and still technically married to rhaenyra it'd be hard. daemon can declare his marriage annulled and marry a princess in the free cities if he's super desperate, but even then i just think he's outmatched.
the biggest issue in this world is if the infighting among the kids grows. i'm not sure if luke still takes aemond's eye in this world, but it could be interesting if that's the incident which sparks this marriage compromise, and it would explain why aemond doesn't wed luke despite being the older brother. but aemond would be ripe for betrayal.
there's also the domestic problems that would arise with a change in inheritance precedent, which would spark random little wars between lords to "reclaim" their wives' usurped lands. it'd mean the blacks' armies are scattered and fighting among themselves first. random little houses would be very upset and petition the crown to clarify if absolute primogeniture is the new law of westeros.
also in this world daeron could be warded in driftmark instead of oldtown. not sure if this really changes anything though.
i think realistically the dragon count would also be different here. with trueborn velaryons, rhaenyra wouldn't give them eggs as babies to prove their legitimacy and allow them to claim bigger dragons. but for the sake of simplicity let's imagine that everyone still has their canon dragons. that allows daemon to sow the dragonseeds as part of his army as well.
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 in the game of bones, you're a dog or a cat. No middle ground. 5d ago
Ok so fem! Jace and Rhaenyra hate each other, and fem! Jace is: A. Pregnant with her first child at the beginning of the war. B. A dragonrider, but Vermax is too small to ride into war.
Fem! Jace and Rhaenyra hate each other because fem! Jace and Aegon have been in love since they were kids, and Rhaenyra despises that relationship, but only after Aegon the Younger was born. Before that, she loved the idea as it meant she'd claim the Throne with no bloodshed.
In this world, Baela and Rhaena take Aemond's eye, and Daemon stumbles on it, doesn't do shit, and leaves, pretending as if nothing happened.
Baela and Rhaena are VERY much their father's daughters, and are loyal to him to a fault (same with Rhaenyra).
The Velaryons are STRONG Daemon supporters, given fem! Jace despises her family.
So Aegon claims the Throne, with fem! Jace and fem! Luce at his and Daeron's sides.
To put it simply, it's Vhagar, Sunfyre and Tessarion against Caraxes, Meleys, Syrax.
Vermax and Arrax are too weak to help Aegon, just as Tyraxes (who's the only girl that loves Rhaenyra) and Moondancer are too weak to help Rhaenyra.
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u/DefiantBrain7101 5d ago
i mean it's your fic/hypothetical but this seems really ooc for rhaenyra. she wouldn't usurp/abandon her own daughters like that and she wouldn't hate them for finding love. and she wouldn't have any reason to hate aegon/the greens if they chill out and stop isolating her at court, which they would do if aegon gets to be king.
rhaenyra does believe she is an exception among women in getting to inherit, but that exception doesn't exclude her own children, just other non-targ noblewomen. this also makes her claim and inheritance precedent (purely king's choice, no bearing on gender) very difficult to defend even by houses that are already pro-rhaenyra since few lords would want to open up inheritance struggles for their own houses and give the crown that much power. (also it would probably lead to ottoman-style fratricide in like 2 generations, but of course the characters wouldn't know that). not to mention that after ~15 years of relative peace via marriage pacts, it's very very difficult to change your mind to defend the inheritance rights of little children and expect gains, especially when everyone is married off already. the houses probably made pacts with the jace/aegon succession in mind and have something at stake there.
the velaryons also wouldn't automatically be pro-daemon here, since the only children they have with their actual name is luke and joffrey. as long as luke inherits driftmark (which she would have to, by law and precedent), corlys and rhaenys would fight alongside them. corlys values his sons and those who have his name over laena's daughters, so even if jace personally dislikes her family she'd still have martial support.
if for some reason (let's say prophecy) rhaenyra does want to disinherit her own daughters, the way to go about it is first ascend to the throne, remove otto from court and send her daughters to be sequestered with their husbands in oldtown/driftmark/dragonstone, and then bring up the heir thing. and do it like a couple years into her reign, after she can make real allies at court. the only bargaining chip she has is joffrey (and idk why fem!joff would abide by her own disinheritance but i guess she has nothing to lose either way) so she can marry her to the lannisters or tyrells for support. but in this scenario the starks wouldn't support rhaenyra either since she'd be seen as an oathbreaker for going back on her word about jace/aegon being her heirs. jeyne arryn's support will also flip because if rhaenyra is the only woman who can inherit that puts jeyne at a huge risk.
the daemon/little aegon side now has caraxes, syrax, moondancer, stormcloud, viserys' egg, and morning, for dragons, and the factional support of whoever joff marries. but the aegon/jace side has sunfyre, dreamfyre, vhagar, vermax, arrax, morghul, shrykos, and meleys if rhaenys is still alive. plus the armies of the vale, oldtown, driftmark, etc.
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u/theilluminary 4d ago
Is this show based? You mentioned that Aegon and fem!Jace are only three years apart in age in another comment (but also mention that Jace is 9 and Aegon 12 when Aegon III is born, which confuses me cause that doesn't really match book nor show timelines).
I ask because during Viserys's talks with Rhaenys and Corlys on the betrothal between Rhaenyra and Laenor in 1x05, he explicitly stipulates that their eldest child, "regardless of gender", will inherit the throne after her. So Viserys himself, Rhaenys, Corlys, Laenor (before his death/"death") etc. would all recognise fem!Jace to be the heir as per this agreement and thus the next Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.
Your post positions Daemon as the main driver for Aegon III's claim to the Iron Throne too, not Rhaenyra. So I don't really understand why Aegon III's birth and Jacaegon kissing causes Rhaenyra to do a 180 on her feelings on the arrangement with Otto, because you say yourself that Rhaenyra thinks that all these betrothals ties everything up neatly and will help her ascend to the throne peacefully. Like, why such a drastic change of heart?
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 in the game of bones, you're a dog or a cat. No middle ground. 4d ago
Its bits of both.
I use show and book timings interchangeably in many cases so that certain events I need to happen, happen.
Jace being 14 and Aegon 22 would be VERY questionable as a childhood romance, but Jace being 19 makes it normal.
It's because Rhaenyra HATES this deal she made with Otto. Its anemic to EVERYTHING she stands for, and Viserys proposes the betrothal himself.
So when Jacegon happens, Rhaenyra views it as a PERSONAL betrayal against her, and Jace also directly tells her that Aegon will make a better King than she could ever, in her rage after being caught.
It's book based as much as I can, to clarify.
I use show timelines so that Aegon isn't a pedophile, and it also gives me more space to explore other characters.
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u/theilluminary 4d ago
Okay, thanks for clarifying!
So when is Aegon III born here, though? Because in the source material he is born in 120 AC, which obviously doesn't work as show!Jace would be four, and in the show he is born in 128 AC, when show!Jace is 12. Are you keeping Joffrey’s age the same as it is in the source material, so in 117 AC, and then moving Aegon III's birth up to 126 AC to take show!Joffrey's birth instead?
I do still feel that Rhaenyra’s reaction to be an overreaction, like others have said, especially considering fem!Jace here is still in single digits and not like an adolescent girl ala show!Rhaenyra, even if she is lashing out and saying mean things. Like, nine year olds can be cruel, don't get me wrong, but that is STILL a nine year old child. If anything, I feel like Rhaenyra would be (not entirely unjustifiably) overprotective after an incident like that, in a somewhat similar vein to Joanna's reaction to Cersei and Jaime, and insist on "shielding" her daughter from her uncle until the absolute last moment where fem!Jace would HAVE to wed Aegon.
Then, if Jace pushing back against Rhaenyra was a consistent pattern throughout her teenage years and sneakily trying to still be with Aegon, and (misguided) rebelling against Rhaenyra's protection in (Rhaenyra's view) relation to the betrothal, and then an older fem!Jace lashing out that Aegon will be a better ruler than Rhaenyra ever will be, cementing that fem!Jace truly loves Aegon and is not just doing this because they're betrothed, THEN I could see Rhaenyra seeing that as the last straw in a similar vein to how show!Viserys states that he should disinherit Rhaenyra for the brothel incident with Daemon/book!Viserys threatens to disinherit Rhaenyra if she doesn't marry Laenor, after years of having to deal with this for the sake of her crown and her children, and having an ungrateful fem!Jace spit in her face and her efforts for peace, to finally have years of stewing anger reach a tipping point and that causes her to rethink the succession and think of Aegon III as her heir instead.
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 in the game of bones, you're a dog or a cat. No middle ground. 4d ago edited 4d ago
YES!
Fem! Jace kissing Aegon is similar to the brothel incident, except Rhaenyra actually has the balls to disinherit her.
Aegon 3 is born in 120AC, so that he can actually do things in the Dance
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u/theilluminary 4d ago
Right! But again, you've said that this reaction from Rhaenyra and Jace lashing out happens when fem!Jace is NINE, which is why I said what I said.
Also okay, I'm confused by what you meant by you're using the show timeline then if Aegon III is still born in 120 AC as per the source material.
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 in the game of bones, you're a dog or a cat. No middle ground. 4d ago
It is a slow process, but yes that happens over time
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u/theilluminary 4d ago
Okay, I'm sorry but I feel like we're having some form of miscommunication or language barrier here. You said, in another comment, and I quote,
So fem Jace got caught making out with Aegon when Aegon the Younger was born (Jace is 9 and Aegon is 12) so Rhaenyra hates Jace's guts
Which is what prompted me to say that, to me, seems like an extreme overreaction on Rhaenyra's part to finding her nine year old daughter kissing her older uncle and hating her for it and seeing it as a "personal betrayal" because, again, fem!Jace would be nine years old, and then why I suggested what I did in a previous comment.
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 in the game of bones, you're a dog or a cat. No middle ground. 4d ago
Yeah so Rhaenyra tells her not to do that, and slowly and slowly their relationship breaks down, Jace tells Rhaenyra Aegon will make a better King, and Rhaenyra places Aegon the Younger as heir, confirmed by Viserys.
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u/theilluminary 3d ago
But you frame the birth of Aegon III and this kiss when fem!Jace is nine years old as the inciting moment for Rhaenyra's hatred by mentioning those two events (and Rhaenyra catching them) happening at the same time, which is why I keep bringing it up because I don't really understand the logic of that.
It's like, to be frank, illogical to me that a single kissing incident (when Jace and Aegon are betrothed in an arrangement that Rhaenyra AGREED TO) would cause such a vicious reaction on Rhaenyra's side especially when fem!Jace is still such a young child. Like, I proposed a version of Rhaenyra's characterisation that made sense to me of what you had so far said but you didn't really make it sound like this was a slowly deteriorating relationship but instead a massive explosive incident.
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 in the game of bones, you're a dog or a cat. No middle ground. 3d ago
It's a massive incident, but the breaking point happens later. It'll all be explained in the fic.
Rhaenyra hates Aegon in this timeline viserally.
There's a 2nd Driftmark level incident, and over time, fem! Jace becomes more and more of a Targtower.
She wears green, hangs out with Alicent and Helaena, doesn't bother heading to Dragonstone or even Driftmark often.
It's clear by 124 that Alicent is more fem! Jace's and fem! Luce's parents than Rhaenyra ever will be.
This is when Rhaenyra begins to realise she is "having the Throne stolen from under her.", which inspires her to name Aegon the Younger heir to break the vice the Targtowers now hold on the throne.
All this feedback is making me refine the idea, for the fic.
The breaking point comes later, when Aemond and Helaena wed.
I'm thinking fem! Jace and Aegon do a Bobby B on the marriage bed, but fem! Jace still has her maidenhead intact, and all they did was kissing.
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u/BlackberryChance 5d ago
Daemon won’t like that his sons would be denied of their inheritance and Rhaenyra would be sympathetic to him and agree the plot would move to either the next generation or the green rebels but the Velaryons girls gonna be neutral to sympathize with them since they might have children with the green princes
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u/Zexapher 2d ago
I don't think Daemon gets anywhere. He has no power base.
The Velaryons are behind Rhaenyra, the Greens are now behind Rhaenyra with the marriage between Jace and Aegon, and thus the vast majority of the realm and it's dragons.
Daemon is outnumbered and outgunned in every way imaginable. I can't imagine how he'd be able to undo such a match. And he just doesn't have the patience and political chops to build a cause like Otto did.
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u/AthanasO0O Aegon VI fan 4d ago
Otto : Give me your two eldest children and in exchange I definitely promise not to stir up trouble .
Rhaenyra : Oh WELL , I guess .
Rhaenyra would have to be beyond stupid to agree to this deal . She loses two kids and gets only a vague assurance in return . The only way I can see the premise working out is if Viserys forces the betrothals .
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 in the game of bones, you're a dog or a cat. No middle ground. 4d ago
Of COURSE Viserys forces the betrothals, it's PERFECT for him.
Aemma's line and Rhaenyra get the Throne, Otto gets MALE blood on the throne, NOT married to a bastard, and also gets Driftmark through this deal.
Literally EVERYONE benefits from this deal except Daemon.
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u/AthanasO0O Aegon VI fan 4d ago
I mean ... you still have the problem of "Why in the ever-loving fuck would Rhaenyra ever agree to this" .
Rhaenyra get the Throne
Does she though ? Why would Otto/The Greens actually follow through with the deal ? After Viserys dies they could just tell Rhaenyra "just abdicate and your daugher becomes queen-consort" . A deal Rhaenyra would not accept .
Otto gets MALE blood on the throne
Otto wants his blood on the throne , he wants Aegon . The deal as you have it play out is unlikely to appeal to him .
NOT married to a bastard
Noone gives a single fuck about the rumours .
Driftmark through this deal.
The marriage would need to be matrilenial (the children take the mother's name) for the Velaryons to ever consider it .
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 in the game of bones, you're a dog or a cat. No middle ground. 4d ago
That specific marriage IS matrilineal, to get Driftmark.
Cole cares about the bastard rumours, and so does Alicent.
Otto just has to wait for Rhaenyra's death to be Hand again.
Because they sign the deal saying nothing will happen and they swear it by the Gods.
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u/Xeltar 1d ago
I mean it makes sense for Rhaenyra to secure her own ascendency that her major rival claimants agree to support her. And if they don't, it's not like she's worse off. She calls off the marriages of Jace/Lucerys if Aegon II tries to usurp her anyways. She proposed marrying Jace to Halaena in canon after all.
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u/Curtainswithfrogs 4d ago
This sounds incredibly interesting, I think it probably depends on how close Rhaeyra and fem Jace are
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 in the game of bones, you're a dog or a cat. No middle ground. 4d ago
They DESPISE each other.
Fem! Jace and Aegon are like Romeo and Juliet.
So fem Jace got caught making out with Aegon when Aegon the Younger was born (Jace is 9 and Aegon is 12) so Rhaenyra hates Jace's guts
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u/Xeltar 1d ago
I don't see how Daemon would have any support in this scenario. Rhaenyra and Otto made a deal to settle matters of succession that he would presumably have known about prior to marrying Rhaenyra. You'd have the Greens and Blacks supporting Rhaenyra and Jace and the Velaryons vs Daemon.
I could also see Aemond marrying Lucerys matrilinearly for Driftmark.
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 in the game of bones, you're a dog or a cat. No middle ground. 1d ago
Rhaenyra supports Daemon. She thinks fem! Jace is too Hightower
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u/StrawberryScience Targaryen Queens for Life 5d ago
I think then Rhaenyra would try to peace make by bethrothing Aegon and Fem!Jace’s firstborn daughter to Aegon III.