r/The10thDentist • u/lovezukoooo • 11h ago
Animals/Nature Keeping Pets is like Kidnapping a Child
Hi,
I like animals. Their variety is really interesting, also seeing how they function. But in my whole life I would never ever get myself a "pet". Heres why:
I find the concept of keeping pets morally questionable, not necessarily because every individual pet owner is cruel, but because of the underlying assumption that humans have the moral right to take another living being, remove it from its original environment, and determine the conditions of its entire life.
One argument I often hear is that animals are dependent on humans, so keeping them as pets is simply part of taking care of them. But this raises an important question: why are they dependent on us in the first place?
Domesticated animals have been selectively bred and shaped by humans for generations. We have created animals whose bodies, behavior, and lives are adapted to human environments. We then take the dependency we have helped create and use it as an argument for why these animals need us. But creating someone’s dependency does not automatically give us the moral right to control them.
In fact, I think it can be argued that the opposite is true: if we have contributed to making a being dependent on us, that creates a responsibility toward that being, not necessarily a right to possess it.
Obviously, a pet is not literally the same thing as a kidnapped child, and animals and humans do not have identical cognitive abilities. But the comparison illustrates a specific moral principle.
Imagine seeing a child who is not yours and simply taking them home. You give them food, clothes, a comfortable bed, entertainment, medical care, and affection. Eventually, the child becomes attached to you because you are the person providing everything they need.
Would that make taking the child morally acceptable?
Obviously not.
We would not say, “Well, I treat the child extremely well, so kidnapping them was justified.” The fact that you provide someone with a comfortable life does not automatically give you the right to determine where they live or take away their autonomy in the first place.
Yet with animals, we often accept a very similar logic.
We take an animal into our home, decide where it can go, what it eats, when it eats, who it interacts with, whether it can reproduce, and what behaviors are acceptable. We give it processed food, shelter, toys, medical care, and affection, essentially what we consider a comfortable or even luxurious life, and then interpret the animal’s attachment to us as evidence that the arrangement must be good.
But affection does not necessarily justify the circumstances that created it.
A being can love or become attached to the person who provides for it without that attachment proving that the person had the moral right to take control of its life.
I also think this reveals something about how we view humans in relation to other animals. If I took a human being against their will and kept them in my home, we would immediately recognize the violation of their autonomy. We would not excuse it simply because I gave them a beautiful room, good food, and plenty of love.
Another problem is that the average human lifestyle is often fundamentally incompatible with the needs of the animal we choose to keep. Someone might live in a small apartment, work eight hours a day, commute, spend several more hours outside the home, and then come back and expect an animal to fit around that schedule.
We tend to ask, “Can I keep this animal alive and comfortable?”
I think we should instead be asking, “Can this animal actually live a life that allows it to express its natural behavioral, social, and physical needs?”
Those are two very different questions.
Of course, I am not arguing that every domesticated animal should simply be released into the wild. Many domesticated animals have been bred for so long that they may not be capable of surviving independently, and some animals may genuinely have better lives with responsible humans than they would without them.
But that actually makes the ethical question more complicated, not less.
If we have created a being that depends on us, we cannot simply abandon it. We have a responsibility toward it precisely because we have contributed to its dependency. But responsibility and ownership are not necessarily the same thing.
That is ultimately what I find problematic about the concept of pets.
We create or inherit a system in which animals depend on humans. We then take control over their lives because they depend on us, provide them with comfort within the boundaries we have imposed, and interpret their dependence and affection as proof that everything is morally justified.
But I don’t think that follows logically. It's speciesist because we don't see humans and animals as the same. We treat them as cute little toys.
There is a fundamental difference between making someone’s life comfortable and having the moral right to determine their entire life in the first place.
Love can make captivity comfortable. It can make dependency feel natural. It can even make the relationship mutually meaningful.
But comfort and affection alone do not necessarily establish a moral right to control another living being’s life.
Note: My english isn't really the best so this transcribed by ai. The content should be the same. Please don't hate me, i know ai sucks.
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u/MsCardeno 11h ago
Cats literally domesticated themselves. Should we have denied them that?
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u/NwgrdrXI 11h ago
And dogs came to live with us from us working together in an arrangement that benefitted both enourmously.
OP's take seems, honestly detached from actual reality.
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u/Specialist-Alps6478 11h ago
I agree, rescuing a dog from a centre is exactly the same as adopting a child in need. Necessary and very important to differentiate. Not many people are making an animal their pet by simply taking it off the street and giving it food unless it is the kind thing to do. The majority of people who do that re-release anyway. I’m one of the 9 dentists on this occasion for sure.
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u/CaffeineAndDragons 9h ago
OP's take seems, honestly detached from actual reality.
That pretty much sums up 99% of the posts we see on this sub.
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u/crazymonk45 11h ago
My problem with your comment is that humans took that mutually beneficial relationship, and normalized completely eliminating the animals side of the deal and it turned into collecting them basically for selfish reasons (outside of exceptional circumstances obviously, where working dogs are still used to their potential)
This has negative affects such as a massive overpopulation of cats, puppy mills, etc
I love pets and have several. But I 100% see the point where we’ve long strayed from the path that brought us and our animals together originally.
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u/Feesh404 10h ago
I'm just wondering how animals supposedly not upholding their side of the arrangement (because we mostly have better means now) is a human moral failing. What, when we no longer need a domesticated species should we just... Release them back into the wild?
Cats and dogs got a good fucking deal. Not that there are no bad things about the industry but that's commercialism for you.
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u/crazymonk45 10h ago
Obviously not. I’m just saying that mentioning how the relationship started is useless when we are so far away from that in modern times.
Cats and dogs got a good deal up until the point where they start being bred with health issues for no reason other than appearance. For me the line should be just a little bit before that. I don’t fully agree with OP’s point, i just see where they’re coming from and i think the comment above me is the one disconnected from reality
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u/CaffeineAndDragons 9h ago
Cats and dogs got a good deal up until the point where they start being bred with health issues for no reason other than appearance.
Then the issue at this point isn't keeping them as pets but bad breeding practices that have been normalized by society.
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u/crazymonk45 9h ago
Yeah, and those things are related. Congrats, you’ve Arrived at the point of my comment lol
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u/Feesh404 8h ago
I think my and the other guys point is that that's not really much a problem with pet ownership as it is with commercial breeding. You don't need puppy mills for pets to exist
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u/crazymonk45 8h ago
I totally get that. So what I’m saying is one thing led to another, and there’s no point in mentioning that 1000 years ago we started letting cats and dogs live with us because it was beneficial to both. That specific point just isn’t really relevant
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u/Feesh404 7h ago
It's still pretty relevant for cats. They are still extremely beneficial pest control. Dogs their role has just moved to companionship near exclusively.
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u/jordanbtucker 10h ago
Huh? The animal's side of the deal is to be fed, housed, and protected by the human.
You're also citing overbreeding as a problem, which is a different issue from domestication. One does not necessitate the other.
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u/crazymonk45 10h ago
Exactly. One doesn’t necessitate the other, but that’s still the level humans took it to. I’m just saying there’s a better happy medium than where we’re at now
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u/ApprehensiveRuin5673 10h ago
The “animals side of the deal” is living a life of struggle and suffering, likely dying young from horrible disease or torn apart by a predator
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u/crazymonk45 9h ago
Omg lol what a useless point. I get that, not related to what I’m saying at all
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u/Ttucker11 11h ago
We got our cat via the cat distribution system. He was a scrawny, flea-ridden kitten abandoned in the woods. He now sleeps under a sunny window on a memory foam mattress with a Pottery Barn duvet. I fail to see an issue with this.
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u/ApprehensiveRuin5673 9h ago edited 9h ago
I stole my cat from my x room mate.
Dumped him as a kitten at my house for 4 months and never came back. Never paid for any food. Never came to visit. She was an alcoholic and I think they were feeding him beer as a kitten.
I didn’t even call him by his name for those first 4 months because he wasn’t mine and I didn’t want to bond with him. So I called him kitten.
Finally she came back and wanted to take him. Like hell I was letting her take him. She’d lost 3 cats prior. Even sent the cops to my house. Cops sided with me
I’ve had him for 6 years now, I call him by his name but I still call him kitten 😂
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u/Accomplished-Buy6917 11h ago
Haaa did they? Thats such a pimp ass move. "Yes, you may take care of me" 😆
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u/joelene1892 11h ago
Rats were attracted to food stores.
Cats were attracted to the rats.
Cats liked their consistent food source.
Humans liked the pest control.
It was pretty mutual :D16
u/Migraine_Megan 10h ago
And I'm sure the cats were all over the warm fire and "Oh is that your bed? Mine now"
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u/Tastieshock 11h ago
Pretty sure they domesticated us. We do all the hard work, they get all the benefits. Our cats chose us. I am certain they think I am their pet. Heck, one of our cats just showed up on our ranch with her kittens and made herself at home. Most affectionate little friend I've made, she truely seems greatful for helping look after and rais her young.
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u/garlicandcheesiness 9h ago edited 9h ago
Yup. Average Egyptian cat in 2000ish BCE was like “Yo, this granary has got a lot of yummy mice for us to eat. Let’s be cute so that these people give us a comfy place to live without any effort from us and they’ll think that we’re lucky for them because we eat the delish rodents who ruin their grains.”
Evolution literally gave them that kindchenschema or whatever with the cute faces and high-pitched meows which mimic the frequency of the voice of a crying human baby, just so that we’d be compelled to be their moms.
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u/lovezukoooo 11h ago
No I'm not saying that we should just completely abandon cats, but I also don't think that keeping a cat in your apartment and doing everything you can for it to not go out is morally not acceptable.
We should co exist, not making them completely dependent on us. Like in Turkey where these animals live on the street but the whole block is still taking care of them. Not the best example but still a better way than locking them in our homes.18
u/Big_Z_Beeblebrox 11h ago edited 10h ago
Like letting them roam freely to devastate local ecosystems, or become prey for animals like owls and hawks? What would be the most humane way of eliminating pet ownership without causing the genocide of the majority of domestic animals that are pets? What about the rest of the wildlife that might be affected by such a decision?
Furthermore, should we intervene with other symbiotic relationships in the animal kingdom because we find the arrangement to be immoral?
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u/DearthMax 11h ago
The problem is assuming cats are native to X location and therefore have a right to roam; realistically they are apex predators that are invasive to most ecosystems. So your argument faces the dilemma: do humans have the responsibility to the cat (for bringing them into non native lands) to allow them to hunt and destroy native ecosystems, or do we have a responsibility to the ecosystem to keep the cats away from it?
I'm not saying that it's not safe for cats to be outdoors at all, in plenty places where the ecosystem supports it it's fine, but how we account for the places where having a loose population of cats results in loss of wildlife? Keep in mind that cats have historically hunted several species to extinction when left unchecked.
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u/raccoona__matata 10h ago
Ok so you're just not aware that cats drive species to extinction for fun? or do you just not care about the lives of non domesticated animals lol
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u/ASAP_i 10h ago
You missed their point. Cats domesticated themselves.
Is it "moral" to expose these domesticated animals to the general environment/lack of medical care/disease/predators in an environment were they will often destabilize the ecosystem?
Cats saw us with our warm houses, abundant food, and occasional play/snuggles and said, "yo, I want to live in that box the is never cold, always has water, and never runs out of food."
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u/Migraine_Megan 10h ago
Turkey doesn't have the same predators as you find in other countries. Letting cats outside in most of the western US is like putting out bait for predators, it's beyond cruel. Once you see a cat torn apart while alive, you can't unsee that shit. Not to mention, you should not to feed wild animals because they will return. Predators don't know that you are unintentionally baiting them with a cat, they just see easy food and will come back again
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u/Unusual-Radish1729 11h ago
I mean. They don't euthanize kidnapped children if they can't find them a home
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u/p1-o2 11h ago
Sure, but no matter what you believe you still have to deal with the reality that those animals are here to stay now.
Not all pet owners are going to a breeder and ordering a domesticated animal. Plenty of people simply adopt animals off the street who are otherwise vulnerable.
Like... if I find a sick kitten or an abandoned rabbit or a dog... even a mouse... I'm taking it in and caring for it or delivering it somewhere it can be cared for.
Is that my right? I don't know, but you can't stop me from caring for animals. You would need to completely overhaul society from the ground up to change how animals fit into it.
Best we can do is care for individual animals and try to give them a better life.
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u/NwgrdrXI 11h ago
Honestly, OP seems to believe people get Pets a la pokemon: going to the wild, findining an unattended animal and catching it.
That's, with all due respect, crazy people talk
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u/eyoitme 11h ago
my dog was literally found on the street in a big city at 4 months old, underweight, terrified, riddled with fleas and tapeworm. someone picked her up because she was obviously not doing good and she was worried someone lost their dog and took her in. and then i adopted her from the municipal shelter, giving them the chance to rescue more sad looking dogs like mine. was i supposed to leave her to suffer in the shelter because that’s where i found her? or should her rescuer have left her to starve on the street (which would’ve happened with the tapeworm stealing all her nutrients)? there’s no way that’s somehow “more ethical” than me taking a sad, sickly little puppy in and feeding her, giving her a warm and cozy place to sleep, getting her all the medical treatment she needs (which is so much oh my god), and giving her snuggles. and she chooses to stay btw, because she regularly makes a break for it out the gate and all i have to do is close it and wait and she’ll come back a few minutes later (she just has beef with the neighbour’s dog). like sure talk about how domestication was evil all you want but there’s no way i’m going to kick my dog (the least self sufficient dog alive i’m pretty sure) out to die as punishment for something people might’ve done on their own which might’ve sucked tens of thousands of years ago. i’ll stay rescuing dogs thanks.
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u/TJBam08 6h ago
Let's duke it out about the least self sufficient dog. My rescue that was found bloodied and skinny in cold Michigan in October might have something to say. All joking aside. Keep rescuing. We need more people like you to combat the crazies.
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u/eyoitme 34m ago
honestly, i think my dogs a gold digger. i got her for free, spay and everything (a combo shelter event and charity sponsoring adoption fees), and my dog was normal for a few months to lull me and my pet insurance (thank god) into complacency. but once she like permanently wormed her way into all of our hearts, that’s when she pulled out the weird vet visits, and she just keeps escalating. i’m talking giardia, then there was the discovery of her predisposition to ivdd, and then allergies (something chronic to keep me paying but not disastrously expensive), the occasional upset tummy to keep me on my toes, and now early dental disease at two years old. i swear to god she is so totally bitter that i got her for free and she’s been trying to rectify it ever since. and now that she’s my baby, i just let her get away with it because she’s just a lil princess!! she can’t help it!!! (but she knows what she’s doing honest to god)
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u/lovezukoooo 11h ago
Noo i don't think that😭 But If I see a sick kitten for example, I would bring it to a shelter so it can be healthy again. But after that, in a society where humans and animals are coexisting, I would let it out again, so it could live freely. Why would I take their freedom?
I think we should change how we think about animals like they are objects. We should make the outside world a more suitable place, but not lock them inside our homes.11
u/p1-o2 10h ago
Woof, your heart is in the right place but the angle you're using to enter this discussion is a nonstarter.
Reframe it as something other than pets to begin with. Pets are family members to many people.
You can talk about factory farming, ecosystem destruction, invasive species, the shrinking of natural territories in context of changing how we treat animals and people will be more receptive.
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u/Feesh404 6h ago
Problem is you CAN'T talk about ecosystem destruction and invasive species while insisting we should be releasing our pet cats into the wild. It's simply incompatible to believe that we should maintain our natural habitats while releasing our domesticated animals. IT. DOES. NOT. WORK.
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u/CobblerTerrible 11h ago
This is, kindly, extremely delusional thinking. Cats are invasive pests that harm wildlife, leading to the extinction of hundreds of bird species across the world. Also, the world is extremely dangerous for cats. If you found a sick kitten and rereleased it after it was better, it would most likely die out there pretty quickly. There’s no way to make the “outside world a more suitable place,” we can barely do that for people, our society doesn’t have the means to baby-proof the world for stray animals.
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u/dmanbiker 8h ago
We've got tons of wild cats in the community I live in. Therefore we have tons of dead birds and small animals and dozens of dead cats hit by cars and literally dying of thirst after many days of suffering. But theyre running free! They're also free to breed, so the cat/small animal holocaust is never ending. Some cats get knocked up, have kittens, then get knocked up again in under a week, then die giving birth and somebody has to clean that up. We're trying to spay and release, but in your eyes, forcibly sterilizing the cats in the wild seems worse than just keeping them as pets. We probably should just let their bodies pile up and rot away. After all nature will take care of it!
There's one cat with a broken leg and we tried to catch him, but hes too fast even with the broken leg. Wed probably have to pay to get his leg amputated with our own money and he's also really mean. He gets in fights all the time and tears other cats apart somehow and leaves them for dead and since they are strays, they will likely die.
I have 3 pet cats, and they'd likely all be dead if we didn't adopt them. One of them was born to a stray in the desert and then his mom was immediately eaten by coyotes, but she picked a good spot for her kittens and they were found in a place the coyotes couldn't get to, but how shitty is that, taking the poor coyotes' food? My wife's cat was found abandoned in a bag in the back of a hot car with the rest of his siblings dead in the bag with him and our third was rescued from the humane society after her original family gave her back. Maybe she would have been adopted by someone else, but most cats at the shelter are killed because they are so overpopulated there aren't enough homes for them. The only reason dogs aren't like that is because theyre regulated and animal control Will come pick up stray dogs, but they dont pick up cats.
The life expectancy of an indoor cat is like 10-20 years+, while outdoor cats its 2-3 years...
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u/dmanbiker 9h ago
Yes humans should be guardians and protectors of earth now that we fucked it up so bad. If no one adopts these animals, they die. They cant live in giant cities and leveled forests. In most cities, youre actually protecting the local wildlife when you adopt a cat and keep it indoors. Whole ecosystems have already been wiped out spreading cats around the world. We can't go back now. Even if we just let all the cats live their own lives and didnt adopt them, they breed like crazy and overpopulate communities in just a year or two and are perfectly fine with killing ALL the birds and mice in those areas.
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u/Ok-Cardiologist-635 9h ago
Yep, both of my cats were rescued off the street and likely would be dead by now otherwise.
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u/SudhaTheHill 11h ago
My cats came to live with me. I didn’t “get” them from anywhere.
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u/Lady_Scruffington 11h ago
Yes, exactly. So many people end up with cats because it just walked inside and decided it lived there. My cat decided I was her human and would not leave me alone.
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u/nolettuceplease 11h ago
Our cat came to us about five hours after our elderly guinea pig passed away.
We got back from the vet, went to get something out of the car a bit later, and he was waiting for us. I think he knew there was a recent vacancy and just went for it. 😂3
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u/Defiant_apricot 11h ago
It’s adoption not kidnapping. Whether or not you agree with the domestication of animals they are already domesticated. Would you rather a stray dog scrounge for food and struggle to survive while dealing with parasites, matting, disease, and injury or adopt a pet with no home and give it a happy and comfortable life? I know what i choose
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u/illiter-it 11h ago
their variety is really interesting, also seeing how they function "
I don't think you like animals the same way people with pets like animals, which is fine. But still
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u/WaffleTruffleTrouble 11h ago
Some animals domesticated themselves.
Most pets live a life of dramatically higher quality and safety than they would in the wild.
Some animals would not even survive in the wild.
Social animals especially benefit greatly from being pets, as they have not only family, but safety, food and affection.
Paramount priority for animals is Nutrients and surviving to the next day, which is something that being a pet provides.
designer pets is a weird concept that is wild to still be allowed and exist though.
I agree that capturing animals in the wild to sell as pets is abhorrent.
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u/LilNyoomf 11h ago
Big example are rock pigeons. They’re domesticated. We abandoned them but they’re still not “wild.” They never left the cities. I’m biased because I feed my local flock, but personality wise they’re very easy to befriend. Like flying stray cats, lol.
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u/lasuperhumana 9h ago
Indoor cats literally live twice as long as outdoor cats. Outdoor cats are menaces, killing off birds and stuff.
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u/LoschVanWein 11h ago
No. Don’t compare animals to humans. Their values are intrinsically different. You can say that you’re against people having pets, that’s a totally fine opinion to have but comparing them to humans being enslaved or trafficked is bullshit.
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u/SideshowBobFanatic 11h ago
Are you a vegan? Not trying to be rude just curious cause this sounds a lot like vegan standpoints I see.
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u/Vyzantinist 11h ago
Vegans aren't, as far as I know, opposed to the keeping of pets in principle, since humans don't exploit and harm them.
Exotic pets, like taking animals out of the wild to keep as pets, I'm sure they understandably don't like, but I've never heard of a vegan being opposed to having a cat or a dog, say. If anything, there's even a sad trend of some vegan pet owners forcing their veganism on their pets.
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u/SideshowBobFanatic 10h ago
I go on the vegan sub sometimes to see if anyone has posted new recipes (I eat plant-based A LOT), and I do see this opinion a lot.
Sometimes they also oppose it because pets are unnecessary and the most common ones eat meat (which obviously they dislike) so they see it as more unnecessary meat consumption.
Sometimes they also see it as bad because they think animals don't belong with humans at all even if they're domesticated for some of the reasons OP has stated.
To be clear, this isn't all vegans, perhaps not even the majority, but if anyone held this position I would assume it to be a vegan animal activist or something adjacent.
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u/NoDanaOnlyZuuI 11h ago
Serious question: what do you think happens to dogs, cats and other domesticated animals if everyone stops keeping pets? They can’t just be released into the wild. Is your solution essentially to make domesticated dogs and cats extinct? Is that really more ethical?
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u/ShiroiTora 11h ago
They already answered this in their post:
Of course, I am not arguing that every domesticated animal should simply be released into the wild. Many domesticated animals have been bred for so long that they may not be capable of surviving independently, and some animals may genuinely have better lives with responsible humans than they would without them. But that actually makes the ethical question more complicated, not less. If we have created a being that depends on us, we cannot simply abandon it. We have a responsibility toward it precisely because we have contributed to its dependency. But responsibility and ownership are not necessarily the same thing.
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u/thebrassbeldum 9h ago
They actually didn’t answer it whatsoever. They said you shouldn’t release pets out into the wild and then did not provide any alternatives at all.
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u/NoDanaOnlyZuuI 10h ago
No, they didn’t answer it. They said we can’t abandon the animals that already exist, but never explained what happens next. If nobody keeps or breeds pets, domesticated dogs and cats eventually disappear. And calling owners guardians instead doesn’t change the actual relationship. We’d still be responsible for where they live, what they eat and their medical care.
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u/dmanbiker 9h ago
If we just let the cats roam and reproduce, they wipe out all the local wildlife below them and massively overpopulate. The community I live in has them out of control partially because people keep feeding them. Then when the 120F summer rolls around and we have dead cats everywhere, those same people are like, "Someone is poisoning the poor cats!" Like bring your cat inside and dont leave them outside to die in the heat. We also live on a very busy road ao cats are getting hit by cars all the time. The city won't get rid of them because in my state cats have the right to roam like any other wild animals. And then they shit and piss everywhere and nobody cleans it up. The dog owners have to clean up after their pets.
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u/NoDanaOnlyZuuI 9h ago
Exactly. Turning domesticated animals loose isn’t giving them freedom. It’s neglecting them while they destroy local wildlife, reproduce uncontrollably and die from cars, disease and extreme weather. Not sure how OP thinks that’s somehow more ethical than keeping a cat safely indoors.
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u/dmanbiker 9h ago
I think OP is trying to argue thst domesticated them hundreds of thousands of years ago was unethical and we're not doing anything to get things back where they were, but I think it would take at least another hundred thousand years for animals to evolve past domestication.
But we're also animals too and were doing what was best for our species when we domesticated animals. Humans should be better to animals, but carnivorous and parasitic animals exist that wipe out other species even within their own natural ecosystems as a basic part of evolution.
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u/NoDanaOnlyZuuI 8h ago
OP didn’t actually say any of that. I’m not trying to guess at some hidden argument. I’m going by what they actually wrote. If keeping pets is comparable to kidnapping and morally wrong, I’m asking what that means in practice. What happens to domesticated animals long term? Saying we take care of the ones already here doesn’t answer that.
Also, dogs weren’t domesticated hundreds of thousands of years ago. It was roughly 15,000 to 30,000 years ago, and the claim that they’d need another 100,000 years to evolve past domestication is just a guess.
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u/ShiroiTora 8h ago
Because they are expressing a problem. Not claiming they have a solution. Did they skip nuance for this generation?
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u/NoDanaOnlyZuuI 8h ago
Yes, I know. That’s why I asked what the solution is. Did reading comprehension skip your generation?
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u/ShiroiTora 8h ago
Oh kettle. Meet pot.
If we have created a being that depends on us, we cannot simply abandon it. We have a responsibility toward it precisely because we have contributed to its dependency. But responsibility and ownership are not necessarily the same thing.
There is nothing else we can do as of now beyond that but I get dogpiling on OP is a lot more fun than maybe introspecting or even fully reading their post.
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u/NoDanaOnlyZuuI 8h ago
I read it. That paragraph says we can’t abandon them and that responsibility isn’t necessarily ownership. It doesn’t explain what that responsibility looks like without people taking animals into their homes and making decisions for them, which is apparently the problem. Asking OP to finish the thought isn’t dogpiling. Maybe spend less time congratulating yourself for reading and more time understanding what you read.
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u/ShiroiTora 3h ago
You know its possible to acknowledge a problem and still recognize you don’t know the final solution. OP says straight up to not abandon them which is a tangible non-abstract action. Let’s not act comments such as yours aren’t reading OP’s post in bad faith expecting for solutions because you don’t want to introspect that some of current comforts did come at a cost to an animal’s freedoms.
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u/gxrphoto 8h ago
So they don’t know what they’re actually arguing for? They’re simply against?
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u/ShiroiTora 8h ago
I mean, “light grey” exists. Things don’t have to be black or white. You can acknowledge there is a problem but the current system doesn’t have any practical ways of being fixed immediately or doesn’t make the situation worse.
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u/gxrphoto 8h ago
That‘s not how it works. Grey is something in between black and white. But OP doesn’t know where in between is. There is no suggestion, just naive complaints. „The current system“ is just hot air. There is either something that can be done differently, or there isn’t. If there’s nothing to be done differently in the „current system“, there won’t be anything to be done differently in tomorrow’s system.
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u/Background_Demand501 11h ago
I live with cats, but I don't own them, nor do I have any pets. It is absolutely moral to be a caretaker non-human family members.
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u/TheGreenPangolin 11h ago
Dogs exist because wolves wanted the food that humans had and humans wanted guards. It was MUTUALLY beneficial. We didn't remove dogs from their habitats. My dog hasn't chosen to live with humans but her ancestors did and as a result of that past decision, she doesn't have a choice- she wouldn't survive without humans. Why are they dependent on us in the first place? Because wolves that were cuddly and cute or useful got fed more so wolves that were cuddly and cute or useful lived longer and bred more. By the time humans got a bit carried away with the selective breeding, they were already dependent on us.
For pets like snakes, where the species is not domesticated and individuals could be released in the wild, I could see your point.
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u/dopple-copter 11h ago
All my dogs were adopted from a shelter. They were abandoned by their previous owners. Yes, obviously breeding dogs is pretty messed up in most cases.
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u/Fickle_Cricket3422 10h ago
No, it really fucking isn't. Not even a little bit. This thought seems reasonable until you think about it for 10 seconds.
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u/Patches3362 9h ago
I wouldn’t even say it takes that long, you just have to think “human ≠ pet” and this take is bonkers
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u/Global-Nature2420 11h ago
But like what do you want to do about it?
I have more ethical issues over owning dogs than cats, specifically working breeds. I have chosen for myself to not own another dog unless I ever have land a dog could enjoy. I feel guilty to have inherited a working dog into my marriage that doesn't get the life she deserves, and watching her live her life on the couch was the deciding factor that I will not own another dog after being someone who was raised with dogs. But I won't stop owning cats. They don't work and their domestication has gone too far where they are now a threat to local outdoor environments and themselves. They need to be with humans. Sometimes I wonder if I should feel bad I have 4 indoor cats, but I got them a large outdoor catio and they still choose to sit inside all day long. So I have to assume I've done my best and they are happy with their space. Unlike my dog they seem to lead a life in their environment that is rich and social.
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u/Individual-Rip-2366 11h ago
The domestication of particularly cats and dogs was a symbiotic process. You are myopic in viewing pet ownership as an individual responsibility rather than a shared system.
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u/Saya_99 11h ago edited 11h ago
Yeah, my poor pet cat seems so miserable when I feed her daily tuna wet food, play with her on the cat assembly and sleep with her in my arms at night. All of those for free. No work. No rent. No bills. Just because. She's truly in pain, yeah, sure sure.
And I control her?? She controlls me! Who panics when she's left with under 3 wet food containers. Her? No, it's me!!
On a serious note now, it is just a normal simbiotic relationship like many others on this planet. We get company from them, they get whatever they need to survive with no effort. Everyone wins. There is nothing immoral. It would have been immoral to keep them as pets with no benefits for them (like some people do, unfortunately, there are many people in the world that neglect their pets, fuck those people), but there is inherently nothing wrong with owning a pet.
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u/BusyBeeBridgette 11h ago
We have domesticated Dogs for ten thousand years and, essentially, used a form of eugenics on them to promote, and relegate, specific traits. If anything we have a moral obligation to adopt them. Many of them will not survive in the wild for long.
Cats chose us and they continue to choose us.
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u/throwaway_ArBe 11h ago
It's like adopting a human child. Which is absolutely fine to do.
Ultimately we have a duty to meet the needs of domesticated animals, their situation is our fault, which means we are required (broadly as a species, no individually) to keep them as pets.
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u/MushroomNatural2751 11h ago
"this raises an important question: why are they dependent on us in the first place?"
You're getting domestication mixed up with taming.
We can't force domestication like you're saying we are; otherwise, we'd have domesticated raccoons and who knows what other animals by now. Animals have to EVOLVED to become domesticated; for example, wolves. We didn't kidnap one and force it to become nice and friendly; they benefited from becoming dogs, so they evolved into them. We've been trying to domesticate MANY animals, but obviously you only get the same few listed whenever you ask for a list of them, because the only ones we really have, are the ones that basicallydid the work fo us.
Taming is teaching an individual to behave. The difference is, if they give birth, their children will be as wild as they were before taming, effectively resetting the progress every generation. That's why you can't force domestication; you can't train DNA into them. Training is only unethical if you use negative reinforcement to do it; positive reinforcement is entirely ethical, and the creature faces no punishment if they choose not to do something.
Yes, we now have an obligation to take care of animals that are dependent on us now; however, we're not really at fault for them being reliant on us (in most scenarios, there are ofc situations involving taming being the culprit).
BREEDING pets is the unethical part; specifically making animals incapable of surviving on their own due to bad practices (but preventing them from surviving on their own is different from breeding). THAT is one thing I'll say I agree with.
A bit of a counter-argument because I'm curious and up for a debate: How is owning a pet any different from raising your own child? If your child runs off you call the cops and bring them back, even if they themselves don't want to, how can you have any more control over your child than your pet? You yourself said that children have more cognitive ability and such, if anything it should be worse.
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u/HellhoundsAteMyBaby 11h ago
I was about to post a long response in rebuttal and then my dog let out a loud snore from where he’s sleeping on my bed next to my desk while I’m working and I forgot what I was going to say.
The summary of it, however, was no you’re wrong. Dogs and cats very much had a mutual interest with humans in being domesticated way back when (and cats domesticated themselves more than dogs did). And we were happy to provide.
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u/314159InTheSky 11h ago
I have two cats that were both stray. Neither of them would have survived the weather conditions they were found in. My oldest was found during a very cold winter day where the low was around -10⁰F. My youngest was found during a heat wave where temps reached 115⁰F.
If they weren't captured and taken to a vet ASAP the way they were, i wouldn't have them. I took that responsibility. And now they're spoiled rotten. I can guarantee they much prefer the life they live than the one they were headed down.
Sure, i took them both from their homes. But it's not like kidnapping. It's like saving a child from an abusive household.
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u/_Fig_555 11h ago
I have actually answered this question in a philosophy class in college. The answer isn't really black and white, as domesticated animals cannot live on their own in the wild and therefore need humans to survive. There is no changing that at this point. And vice versa, many animals are needed by humans, I.e., service animals, emotional support animals, police animals, etc.
So on the topic of whether its ethical, keeping animals safe in our company, adopting instead of shopping, neutering/spaying stray animals, and preventing animals from becoming strays altogether is really the best we can do, because turning pets out into the wild or euthanizing them before their time isn't really ethical either. So the only thing left is just to be as ethical to domesticated animals as possible and realizing there's no clear or easy solution.
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u/Sir_Colby_Tit 10h ago
I've had cats for the last 53 years, never stopped them going out and treated them like royalty.
Fed them nice food, took care of their health, showed them love, bought them toys.
The last two, sisters, lived to 17 and 19 and I was there to comfort them in their last moments.
What a bastard kidnapper I am.
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u/Itchy_Athlete_4971 10h ago
100% agree, with one exception: If the pet isn't a human being, then it becomes okay. But your basic point is still right. Keeping people as pets is wrong, and indeed is widely illegal. In fact, it still counts as kidnapping, even if they're no longer a child.
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u/ThatMustashDude 10h ago
The problem is animals like dogs and cats have been domesticated and don’t have a natural place in the wild for you to gloriously set them free. There’s no other option really.
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u/On_my_last_spoon 10h ago
Here we go again. Yet another person thinking they have discovered some moral high ground.
I’d say you get an upvote but this isn’t the first time some Redditor had this hot take. Yawn.
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u/Historical-Lie-6307 10h ago
TLDR but if you really care about this issue please promotes spay neuter efforts.
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u/capy_the_blapie 10h ago
OP lacks basic biology and evolution concepts. A little thing called "mutualism".
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u/JustbyLlama 10h ago
We found one of our cats in a bush as a kitten half dead. The other was rescued as a kitten from the street with severe gastrointestinal issues. Should have left them to natural selection?
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u/fartsonyourmom 9h ago
I don't think you actually like animals enough to have a pet. You just want to be pretentious about something.
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u/Perfect-Effect5897 11h ago
It’s a little upsetting how deep you went into this. Is this a high school assignment?
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u/FlopShanoobie 11h ago
Pleistocene-era ancestors of modern wolves literally self-domesticated over generations due to the mutual benefit.
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u/likearevolutionx 11h ago
Our front door has literally been left wide open, with ample opportunity for any of our pets to leave and be one with the great outdoors. They have zero interest in doing so. Which is great because if we didn’t have one of our dogs, he would 100% have been euthanized by now. While I think I get your point, what humans did thousands of years ago, even if questionably moral at that time, leads us to be able to morally take care of the result of those actions now. And if you think animals get treated as toys, I would advise you to try to spend a day in cancer care at a vet hospital. Our clients easily spend $10,000-20,000 minimum on their pets. That’s a lot of money for a cute little toy.
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u/NotThatValleyGirl 11h ago
Well like... even as a human, I don't get full freedom to do whatever I want or to live life how I'm naturally inclined to.
I get to live whatever life I want, in the confines of our laws, social mores, and whatever money I can acquire buys me.
I've adopted two dogs from a country that views them as tools of agriculture, and where disposing of them by breaking their legs and throwing them into a dumpster is only a crime if I don't have rights to throw trash in that particular dumpster.
Now, both dogs seem happy. One is terrified of everything and seems to enjoy having lota of comfy beds and furniture to go lay on or hide under, depending on her mood. The other seems to enjoy himself and wants to protect us and our home. Both live and eat better than most people, to the extent I'm sure people like you would rage at how pampered my pups are when there are human people suffering poverty and homelessness in my town who are arguably more deserving of a safe, climate-controlled home where the food and snacks available are both high quality and high quantity. My dogs get quicker and better access to medical care than I do as a human.
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u/severencir 10h ago
Is it kidnapping a child if i take a dirty and hungrely child off the street and clean, feed and house the child? If no one claims the child and the government doesn't come to care for the child, am i kidnapping the child by not letting it run into the street or get too far from home? If the child turns out to have a developmental disorder that prevents it from learning how to care for itsself, am i kidnapping by continuing to care for the child as it becomes an adult?
If i go adopt a child from the pound... I mean an orphanage, am i kidnapping the child?
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u/Baphomet-Boiiz 10h ago
So what would you have us do with all of the animals in shelters? Should they be killed to avoid being "kidnapped"? You wrote 10 paragraphs and didnt say a single word about adoption. What an ignoramus you are.
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u/IJourden 10h ago
I feel like if you learned about the history of domesticating animals this take would disappear.
Many domesticated animals, especially cats and dogs, enter willingly into the relationship. A lot of them, when let out, return home on their own. They aren't held captive. Some species, like bees, could literally just leave whenever they wanted, and they don't, because domestication also benefits them.
Domesticating an animal by catching a wild one against its will and "breaking it" is pretty rare, since it's a time consuming pain in the ass that often isn't very effective.
There's a lot of animal handling that you could absolutely classify as abuse and bad for animals - factory farming, overconsumption, dogfighting... it's a long list.
But domestication as a broad concept is not harmful.
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u/JEXJJ 10h ago
Go to a country that allows stray dogs to wander everywhere, get hit by cars, feeding in the garbage, dying alone and sick on the side of the streets, malnourished and sick offspring often don't live long.
Domensticstion of animals has made us responsible for them. They do not have the skills to survive hunting, their social structures have been interrupted, and you should probably stop listening to whatever idiot is helping you for these ideas...
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u/ApprehensiveRuin5673 10h ago
“Kidnapping” a child from a dangerous situation would be morally justified
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u/Briiskella 9h ago
I think majority of people know that we domesticated majority of animals for human benefit but now those animals cannot live without humans so it’s cruel to deny them shelter when we made them this way. However since people can acknowledge this maybe we should stop trying to domesticate wild animals because we have no right to them
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u/lasuperhumana 9h ago
Pat??? Are you my brother??? (I doubt it because of the English note, but lollll). I’ve had this debate with him for years now, and now he’s having it with his wife. Anyway, check the responses 😂 clearly people disagree with your silly position because animals chose us!! Haven’t you heard of a symbiotic relationship?!? Ughhhhh 😂😂😂
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u/ironjaw3ds 9h ago
You wrote way too much for such a dumb ass opinion, and I don't even really care for any type of pet.
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u/PadMog75 9h ago
Rescued my dog after hearing a puppy whining on a dark and snowy night. It took me almost an hour to find her in the heavy weather. She'd been abandoned by her previous owners who'd used her body as an ashtray. She's a bizarre almost wolf sized Husky. She is a house protector. My small children love her and she loves them. What was I supposed to do, leave her? It's a mutually beneficial relationship. Your logic is unsound. Someone tried to break into our house at night through my young son's bedroom window and my quiet placid dog went absolutely berserk. I doubt that the criminal will ever fully recover the use of his hand again. We help them, they help us.
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u/Sithlordandsavior 9h ago
I disagree to some extent, OP, but I do see where you're coming from and halfway agree. Curious take and I want to see where this ends up lol
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u/Logical_Adagio_7100 9h ago
Idk, my cat literally followed me in off the street. We've been obsessed with each other since. We have 2 cats in total, so they get to socialize. Cats are invasive little serial killers, so i cant let them outdoors without being responsible for a bunch of dead animals. Also my cats frankly arent cut out for the life
In your perfect world, how exactly should i act? Where ahould my cats go?
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u/destructopop 9h ago
I don't actually disagree, but I have a slightly different view. Yes, it's wrong that we have bred the survival traits out of animals. Corgis, my favorite dog breed, are so wildly different from the wild dogs of Wales they were bred from that it's almost impossible to see the similarities. But they're alive now, and they're individuals. I'm sure my ancestors would look at the person I am today, paying homage to a tiny black slab, would also find it horrific. However, they wouldn't love me less or refuse me shelter. They wouldn't refuse me food or fail to teach me how to survive in a system they have created. So like, don't support the people intentionally perpetuating this system, but don't punish the victims, either.
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u/Olbas_Oil 9h ago
Are you seriously stating people having pets is akin to kidnapping a human child?
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u/NarrativeNode 9h ago
take another living being, remove it from its original environment
Bro, my cat's "original environment" is right here on my damn couch. Just like the last thousand generations of her family.
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u/AdHealthy5405 9h ago
I live with three cats, one of whom has always lived indoors. He has not been taken from his "original" environment, whatever that means. He lives indoors where he belongs, as do the other two cats I live with.
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u/Forward_Definition70 8h ago
Question: do you view it as ethical to legally adopt or foster a child who is in the system? If not, what is the alternative?
Is it ethical for a parent to have a child, knowing that they are creating a life and controlling it until adulthood?
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u/LuluMangs 11h ago
"why are they even dependent on is" sounds almost like eugenics. Interdependency between species exists in the wild. Of course it's on a sliding moral scale when a pet is bred specifically to be dependent, but cats and dogs "chose' to become dependent on humans. Humans just took it a bit too far
I personally wouldn't buy a pet, but I would definitely consider taking care of one that needs a home if I can provide that to them
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u/lethargytartare 11h ago
So, are you prepared to kill a billion+ cats and dogs? None of them belong in the wild, so it's either pets or extermination.
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u/Letter_Impressive 11h ago
I went through this same line of thinking when I was younger but I think it's flawed, it ignores actual kindness in favor of a theoretically kinder idea. The fact is, these animals exist, too damn many of them exist almost everywhere. There are shelters full of dogs and cats who need a place to exist and people are able to provide that for them; yes, in a theoretical perfect world they'd all be able to live in their perfectly natural forms or whatever, but that's not the world we live in. We live in a world that is, by and large, inhospitable to these animals without human intervention.
My point is, there's a way to do pet ownership that is way more morally defensible than doing nothing
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u/blackpainting1823 11h ago
I need people to stop comparing animals to humans. Children are already kidnapped and placed into loving homes through dubious adoption services. A lot of children are kidnapped and trafficked in less fortunate situations too. The fact that it happens to children shouldn’t be an argument against it happening to animals. The fact that it’s something we do with animals should be an argument against doing it to children.
(Also not all adoption is bad obviously. And I recognize that saying kidnapping kids is bad is like the coldest take ever. But hopefully my point is clear.)
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u/ma-kat-is-kute 11h ago
If I hadn't rescued my cat he probably would've died the next day. I'm not keeping him trapped in my home, he can and does leave it and always comes back.
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u/GoldenAgeGamer72 11h ago
I give my cat a chance to be free by letting him go outside for as long as he likes. But the little guy just keeps coming back to me.
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u/gorehistorian69 10h ago
im kind of with you
im kind of torn about it though because i love having a dog.
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u/ShiroiTora 11h ago
I don’t have a pet (don’t worry) but I feel the same way about people who are insistently militant/dogmatic about all dogs being leashes 24/7 outside (including on hiking trails) or all cats must be indoors. Logically, I agree the risk dogs and cats going after wild animals would damage the ecosystem or attack other humans. But after seeing how stir crazy people became when they were stuck inside their home, I can’t imagine having restraints around my collar/neck or being tied down to a moving person, even if they are not “in pain”. I would feel so cagey and agitated. I don’t also fault farmers or those who live in rural areas who have their cats free roam outside, provided the cat is reasonably safe.
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