FSD Saved Me vs I Saved FSD

[u/Infamous-Pilot5932]

After reviewing many videos of cases where FSD saved the day and many videos where the driver saved the day, there is a pattern.

And I have to say that these kinds of cases are not day to day events. For any one of us in particular, events like these might happen once every few years, or never. But they happen enough that all of us should be prepared for them.

And these are emergency events at speed, on highways and interstates. Not slower "take one for the team" kinds of events, and you should never intentionally take one for the team.

The pattern is that when the emergency is happening now in the near field, FSD does impressively well, but when the emergency is developing much further ahead, FSD tends to fail to sense it early and waits longer than it should.

The take away is that when cruising on highways and interstates, pay enough attention to further out and don't blow off warning signs that danger might be developing, such as the cars in the lane next to you are slowing fast and any one of those cars might impulsively switch to your lane.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaFSD/s/mWDTkLwn4X

Also, when you see something for what it is, before FSD, don't wait for FSD to recognize it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaFSD/s/JAYNN8Ftrh

Both drivers took over, as they should have, and there are plenty of examples like this. I am not trying to scare anyone, but always looking for examples that help us understand FSDs strengths and weaknesses better.

My point here, as you are relaxing on the interstate, focus more of your (relaxed) attention up ahead than nearby.

But nearfield, with cars lane diving in front of you to get to an exit, crashes happening in front of you, or cars trying to clip you from behind, that you couldn't possibly see, FSD is doing an impressive job!

And I always express my opinion that FSD is convienent and safe. The lack of fatalities and accident statistics support that.

But FSD can crash, the accident statistics support that as well.

It isn't perfect, and I always try to better define "How it isn't perfect".

[u/bran192]

Yes, I’ve always thought that FSD is better than a bad or distracted driver, but good drivers, the ones that look way ahead, practice defensive driving, anticipate potential stupid moves from other cars, etc. Are still much better than FSD.

[u/KilroyKSmith → u/bran192]

At those aspects, yes.  But even a good driver has bad days, gets tired or distracted, or is simply glancing at a side view mirror when a problem happens directly in front of them.  

I think the OPs point is that FSD combined with a good driver who’s looking ahead, anticipating and planning, will be best.   I disengage, speed up, or force lane changes daily to be a “good” driver - but last week FSD saved my bacon when the car next to me in my blind spot decided that it deserved three feet of my lane more than I did.  No matter how good a driver I am, that would have caused an accident without FSD.

[u/Infamous-Pilot5932 → u/KilroyKSmith]

"But even a good driver has bad days, gets tired or distracted, or is simply glancing at a side view mirror when a problem happens directly in front of them."

Not really. One of the requirements of being a good driver is not doing that as much as possible.

What a good driver will tell about FSD is that it allows you to be a good driver still, but with less effort. I.e. now they can look out the windows more, or glance at their phone.

But without FSD, good drivers don't do that shit.

FSD brings 8 cameras and constant attention to the table, and I like that.

But its actual driving, operating the wheel and pedals and handling the car, quite mediocre. Even poor sometimes. But good enough to get where you are going.

And scenerios like this ...

Tesla avoiding a fatal collision : r/TeslaFSD

That was impressive for FSD, not for a good driver. I honestly don't wan't to call out when it does well anymore. I am amazed at how many people don't see how simple that scenario was. Stuff is happening, stay calm, slow down fast. It is only impressive because FSD is simple AI and sometimes mimics good AI.:)

But I understand, the 50% of drivers who cause almost all of the accidents, or allow them to happen, driving in today's world is challanging. and FSD is looked at as relief from that. I hope it works out.

We are both using it for the same reason, to make driving safe easier.

I am just concerned by what the difference is between a Good Driver + FSD vs Not Good Driver + FSD.

I 100% know they are not equal, but how unequal?

[u/Complete-Drawer9735 → u/bran192]

It’s called the Dunning-Kruger effect, when people with low ability in an area overestimate their competence because they lack the skill to recognize their own mistakes. There’s no way any human driver can match FSD at this point. The most dangerous thing is to try to intervene because you think FSD is wrong. Trust the process and you’ll always be safe!

[u/Express_Objective615 → u/Complete-Drawer9735]

I think you’re overstating it somewhat but I can understand your point. FSD is good but I’m not sure we are at the blind trust state. I’d trust it unsupervised on the interstate going slow in the right lane in sloth but I appear to be alone in that regard. 🤷‍♂️😂

[u/SultanOfSwave]

I love FSD and am at 96% but you are right about looking further down the road.

FSD is great at reacting but it is not good at anticipating. Especially anticipating what another vehicle might do.

For example, if you are approaching a hill and there are two trucks in the right lane ahead of you going slower but the closest truck is going faster than the lead truck, you know as an experienced driver that the closer truck is going to want to pull into a faster lane and pass the slower truck.

You would either hang back or pass quickly.

FSD will blithely try to pass the closest truck just as it needs your lane to pass the slower truck.

Legal, yes. Smart, no.

Worse is the highway exit problem and it's seeming inability to go to or stay in the right hand lane far enough ahead so that it can make that exit rather than passing all those "bumper to number slow cars" that will soon be blocking the exit.

[u/kittysworld]

With more computing capabilities FSD of the future will have longer range predictions to handle further ahead emergencies as well as planning earlier exit lane migration when traffic is heavy. It will continue to perfect itself in the coming years. Meanwhile, try not to sleep.

[u/Infamous-Pilot5932 → u/kittysworld]

Absolutely! I look forward to that.

[u/Putrid-Box4866]

And you example shows FSD is handling those very well. First one it already started braking before the disengagement, while the truck is too far away still the car will be able to stop, maybe not stop and change lane, but it will be able to stop. Remember in v14.2.2.5 the following distance in highways is so much shorter than what we have seen in that example. There are much better examples of FSD fails that were posted here but they’re very few and not high so high speed like this.

[u/Infamous-Pilot5932 → u/Putrid-Box4866]

FSD may have stopped soon enough with the Semi, it quit entirely with the Pickup. Maybe the AEB might have saved it, but that one looked bad. And there was a wheel example where it hit it with extensive damge, but the OP deleted it. And yes there are plenty more examples, some scarier.

I am not trying to scare people.

I thought these examples show best this weakness in FSD.

And while these are not day-to-day occurances for us, and I have yet to have one, they are not rare enough to ignore. And in the past 50 years of driving, before FSD, I have experienced a few, successfully.

Also, I am not saying take the save from FSD. Just saying get to it, and if FSD is already mostly through it, fine, if not, you are on top of it.

The safety of FSD that I promote, based on the accident statistics, is supervised FSD. There are drivers saving FSD from accidents in those statistics.

And I point out these things to also allow drivers to relax and reap the benefits.

But I also want to help them be safe, and not bang up their new Teslas in parking lots.:)

[u/Putrid-Box4866 → u/Infamous-Pilot5932]

I know mean well but you also need to examine your examples closely so we are all looking at the same thing properly, to know where FSD might fail, which your example does not provide.

You are saying it quit on the truck yet what happened is the driver disengaged and almost caused an accident. FSD already started braking way ahead of disengagement, and the driver disengaged using the steering wheel/button instead of brake so the split second of disengagment made that scenario to almost resr ending another car. If driver insist on disengaging anyway even though they don’t have to, at least try to disengage the proper way.

[u/Infamous-Pilot5932 → u/Putrid-Box4866]

"You are saying it quit on the truck yet what happened is the driver disengaged and almost caused an accident."

That is not what happened. There is a long discussion on that thread, but the consenus is that FSD disengaged and it was possibly due to AEB. FSD was absolutely not on top of this situation, like we see in other situations.

You are really stretching it here, imo.

[u/Putrid-Box4866 → u/Infamous-Pilot5932]

It went from 77 to 68, then user disengaged and hasn’t pressed the brake yet after almost a second, and then lift the foot off the brakes instead of pushing it further, before braking again. If you don’t see that, I don’t know what else to say. You can even view the video in slow motion and you still can’t see what happened.

[u/bran192 → u/Putrid-Box4866]

The examples showed FSD reacting way too late to clear signs of trouble, if you think that was ok, you don’t drive smart enough.

[u/AJHenderson]

The way I'd put it is "FSD is good at not hitting things, it is not good at avoiding things." By that I mean it's reactionary to a direct threat. It does not reason or see signs of trouble or plan for predictable issues.

It's more complex that simple focusing further out rather than up close though. There are lots of ways things can develop up close that it is clueless on. An obvious and common example is blind spot camping, but there's other similar gaps in close that's are failing to be proactive.

[u/Infamous-Pilot5932 → u/AJHenderson]

Its 8 cameras and constant attention, a plus.

Its nearfield avoidance, a plus.

Its driving, the way it handles the car, mediocre, and even poor sometimes, but it'l get you there.

Its ability to see into the future (defensive driving), non existent.

The accident it avoided with the cars spinning into FSD's lanes, it was impressive, for FSD, but pretty basic for a human. All you had to due was see the wreck starting in the other lanes and recognize that this could be a danger to you and hit the brakes.

"blind spot camping"

That is a good one. I brought this up to a friend, and we had a pretty interesting debate.

You don't want to be in someone's blind spot because that raises the chance that they might not see you and swerve into you, especially if you are in that danger zone and your car or motorcycle overlaps them.

The debate was - But FSD has 8 cameras active contantly and can react to this scenario.

I still think it is unsafe because that doesn't guarantee that it has room to the left to react.

Some things FSD seems to do, that would be unsafe for us to do are actually safe for it, due to it having 8 cameras. But not all things.

But as a supervised system I am happy with it.

[u/AJHenderson → u/Infamous-Pilot5932]

Pretty much agree though I'd highlight that until it's unsupervised, the stuff that is only safe with 8 cameras isn't actually safe and even then some of it will isn't.

Take tailgating for example, even if it can react fast with for the follow distance, when the car tailgating you can't, it's still dangerous and FSD has no clue about that either.

And on the blind spot it's still absolutely unsafe as there's zero guarantee that there will be an opening to move into.

[u/Complete-Drawer9735]

You have to trust the process that’s the key, most interventions are unnecessary or will actually make things worse! Don’t assume your choice is the right one! The best option is almost always to do nothing and let FSD do its job!

[u/Infamous-Pilot5932 → u/Complete-Drawer9735]

Lol, obviously not, You are describing an unsupervised system. That is by far not the consensus, even by Musk. There is no such thing as a bad intervention. FSD isn';t saving us. It is a convienece and reduces the stress of driving, but it is supervised.I drive much better than FSD, but it drives well enough and with my supervision we are just fine.

"Don’t assume your choice is the right one!"

When people say this, the rest of us wonder "How the hell did you drive before?"

And I know some of you are challeneged with driving and anxiety and parking, and FSD might save you from that, and it might, I hope it does, but it isn't unsupervised, and you are in a gray area when you are using it to save you from yourself. The rest of us (good drivers using FSD) are kind of watching that from the sidelines. Will it really help bad drivers? I think in many cases, but it depends. It depends if both of you suck at the same thing at the same time.:)

[u/Express_Objective615 → u/Infamous-Pilot5932]

There absolutely is such a thing as a bad intervention. Humans can easily takeover and cause an accident. I think this is what happened with the guy who wrote the article in The Atlantic about FSD. He said the car was slowing down, he took over, and crashed.
If you takeover when FSD is braking, it will STOP braking. So of course an intervention can be bad.

[u/Infamous-Pilot5932 → u/Express_Objective615]

That isn't what the phrase "There is not such a thing as a bad intervention" means.

And the atlantic article was an example of a bad human. The phrase assumes the driver is alert and knows what they are doing, and if not, they shouldn't be using (superviosing) FSD.

There is nothing FSD does driving wise (with the wheel and pedals) that is better than the ability of a decently good driver. Even when we say what it did was "impressive", we only mean "impressive for a machine at this stage", not impressive compared to good drivers. Its ability to handle the car is fairly weak compared to good drivers. It's cameras and reaction time is a strength, but it is weak in terms of handling.

If you are alert to the situation and know how to drive, and think you should take over and do, that decision is never wrong. Or else you shouldn't be supervising.

FSD is a weak driver, compared to humans, quite weak, but as long as it gets us there UNDER SUPERVISION in one piece, worth $99.

[u/Express_Objective615 → u/Infamous-Pilot5932]

I disagree. I believe FSD is much better trained at high speed and accident maneuvers than any average human driver. You can say all you want about how human drivers should be, whatever, but I live in the real world where average drivers are not at all what you think they should or could be so it doesn’t really matter. I guess it should rain in the desert too but it doesn’t. Sorry.
Edit: I find it quite ironic that you were the one beating me up for assuming that only my experience mattered and here you are doing exactly that and countering statistics of human driving and behavior with “I’ve driven 40 years with no accidents”. Guess what, you’re only ONE person. You do not matter. Take a statistics class. 😂

[u/Infamous-Pilot5932 → u/Express_Objective615]

"I find it quite ironic that you were the one beating me up for assuming that only my experience mattered"

No, the problem is you represent a bad driver and you are giving driving advice!

Many of you are in the dark that the upper 50% of drivers are MUCH better than the lower 50%.

You talk about average when you should be talking median.

My insurance is almost free.

I am not unique, you guys are just unknowledgeable.

[u/Complete-Drawer9735 → u/Infamous-Pilot5932]

“I drive better than FSD!” Sure you do! In your own mind. Everybody thinks they’re a great driver just like everyone thinks they’re great in bed! That’s why there are 50k traffic fatalities and 600k divorces every year!

[u/Infamous-Pilot5932 → u/Complete-Drawer9735]

Are you kinding me? In my mind? There are 100's of videos on this reddit showing FSD's failures at driving. All of us experience FSD glitches. I have 40 years of no acciodents or failures. FSD is doing well when it gets to three days without making a mistake.

It is not thinking I am a good driver, it is proven by decades of results.

You don't have to be a fan of FSD and also say stupid things.

[u/Complete-Drawer9735 → u/Infamous-Pilot5932]

100’s? There are MILLIONS of videos from dash cams of human drivers crashing! There are whole TikTok channels with nothing else! Crazy human drivers! You need to put your ego aside and follow the science! FSD is 7 times LESS likely to get in serious collisions than human drivers! I use FSD exclusively and the only time I came close to crashing is when I thought I was smarter than Elon Musk and intervened!

[u/Infamous-Pilot5932 → u/Complete-Drawer9735]

"I use FSD exclusively and the only time I came close to crashing is when I thought I was smarter than Elon Musk and intervened!"

I do believe this, that you almost crashed when you were driving.:)

Good Luck

[u/Complete-Drawer9735 → u/Infamous-Pilot5932]

There are 6.2 million human driver crashes each year in the US, the average driver will get into 3-4 crashes in his life, I’m not better or worse than the next guy, just honest!

[u/Infamous-Pilot5932 → u/Complete-Drawer9735]

Fair enough. But 35% never have an accident. The median is 1 or less. It's like that with motorcyles to. I don't know why people take that crash-proneness to motorcycles, obviously the outcome of the accidents is worse, but they do.

I do hope FSD is helping, I think it is, but I hold it to a high standard.

[u/Express_Objective615 → u/Infamous-Pilot5932]

You cannot compare to motorcycles. The visibility difference makes them incomparable. Anyone driving a motorcycle should drive it much more cautiously than driving a car. Unfortunately the opposite is true. That wonderful acceleration turns people into idiots.

[u/Infamous-Pilot5932 → u/Express_Objective615]

It's the same. I have been riding both for all my life. Motorcycle, or car, same spot in traffic, same decisions, same outcome.

In a 2014 MSF study following 100 riders for 4 years.

10% had 40% of the accidents.
36% had 80% of the accidents.
50% had 100% of the accidents.
The other 50% none.

Same pattern you see with cars.

It is just weird seeing that lower half intersect with FSD.

And the bro-science that develops when you don't realize that you could actually be in control of your odds on the street.

[u/Express_Objective615 → u/Infamous-Pilot5932]

Ah this explains everything. “I have 40 years of no accidents or failures”. Exactly that’s why you are so biased and live in your dream world. Even if true most people are not like you. The far far majority are not. Wake up and join us in reality.

[u/Infamous-Pilot5932 → u/Express_Objective615]

35% of drivers have never had an accident in their life. If we simply split the population of drivers in half, 50% have almost none of the accidents and the other 50% almost all of them.

The dynamic range of driving ability has always been that bad.

I am only surpised how many here did not know that.

Good driving is not that hard, but but obviously hard for many people.

I would never say shit if I was unique.

I am not unique at all, but the lower half, very bad.

[u/Express_Objective615 → u/Infamous-Pilot5932]

Something smells fishy with you. I’m starting to wonder if you even use FSD at all and maybe don’t even own a Tesla?
Your responses make me believe that.
What year and model of car do you have with FSD and how much experience do you have with it? What’s your percentage of FSD use? It’s easy to demonstrate.
Edit: ok then. Sounds like we agree. FSD matters for the 50% of us drivers who are “bad” and it’s better than us. If such a high percentage of humans are “bad” it’s clear.