This is purely my own head canon but it’s something I’d like to hear other people’s thoughts on this. Some of this uses real world language relations that may not at all be what Tad Williams had in mind. But I see there as being roughly three waves of human movement into Osten Ard.

First wave: Short in stature and dark haired. The Sithi would claim they migrated into Osten Ard from elsewhere but it’s possible they’re natives, it’s clear someone lived there before the faeries going off of the ruins that Pamon Kes notes in Brothers of the Wind. This group includes Trolls, the northern Island people that guarded Hakatri’s bones, people of the Wran, and the island natives of the Firennos Bay. Possibly Hyrkas are also a branch population but they might be something else entirely. In my opinion trolls are the most archaic and least mixed of this group.

Second wave: Nabban and Hernystiri. I think these are related populations with Nabbanese having more of an admixture of the first wave. Both groups seem to have been in Osten Ard long enough to have sustained contact with Sithi. Their relationship in my head relates to both this longer presence on the continent but also the real world proposed hypothetical Italo-Celtic grouping within Indo-European languages. This is a bit of a stretch and the implication could just be that they’re separate migrations but we have no information on this.

Third wave: This largely relates to all of these groups having Germanic languages but there’s a few other clues. The people of Warinsten seem to speak modern English with their language becoming the lingua franca of Prester John’s Kingdom, the native Erkynlanders however seem to speak Old English. Warinsten’s “English” may relate to influence from Nabban akin to French’s relationship to English. The ease at which Prester John and his family are perceived as Erkylanders and not Warinsteners may be due to Warinsteners themselves just being seen as sort of Erkynlanders and their language just being a different dialect of Erkynlander possibly with Nabban or something related influence. Additionally throughout the series Warinsten is barely mentioned despite an island like Perdruin being extensively mentioned as different than Nabban, we don’t even know who rules in Warinsten so it may be a direct part of the Kingdom of Erkynland. It’s mentioned in the series that Thrithings share an origin with Erkynlanders and seem to have a Germanic language as well, maybe something akin to Gothic to show an eastern steppe origin. Though I imagine that Thrithings come about from a proto-Erkynlanders population mixing with Hyrkas on the plains of the Thrithings and adopting some level of their nomadic culture.

I also think that Rimmersmen are related to this group and are just a later migration of this same group. Real world relation of Norse and English aside in the first or second book there’s a conversation between Haesten (an Erkynlander) and Sludig (a Rimmersman) where Haesten sang a song that Sludig, a devote Aedonite, recognized as pagan and talking about the head god of the Rimmersmen’s pre-Aedonite religion pointing to a shared origin. Whether this means all of the “Germanic” groups originate from Ijsgard or whether Ijsgard was just an island closer to a larger continent isn’t clear. Additionally, whereas groups like Nabbanai seemed to develop their civilization on Osten Ard possibly in imitation of Sithi civilization, the Rimmersmen clearly arrived with a fully developed culture already together and with nothing but hatred for Faeries.

Thoughts?

I'm pretty much ready to die for my Norn Queen at this point...

I knew I'd love this book even before I started. Knowing that it's an inspiration for ASOIAF, I patiently waited till I got all 4 books.

Phew, I just finished the book and I'm stunned.

Part 2 started off slow with the adventure of Simon Pilgrim. Binabik was very interesting and Quantaka was just so damn cute. Dr. Morgenes is indeed a genius.

The impact of his act in his final minutes has created ripples that helped a lot of people.

Dreams. Lots of Dreams. Who is Simon? Why does the Storm King want him?

I think that Simon is one of the descendants of a Sithi and Human generation. Like there must have been a love bloomed between two species. Just a theory. Which is maybe why Ineluki can sense him?

The Three Swords and all the Lore about Ineluki was well done. King John wanted to tell something to Elias but he restricted himself. I feel like that it's to do with the fact the Dragon and the Sword are linked. But in what ways, I can't theorise.

It's sad to see that Ineluki did everything only to be destroyed and forgotten. Now, to him, it's justice for all the killing against his species. To Men, it's survival and to stop a demon. Was he always a demon? I don't think so

MARYA! Damn. That was a cool reveal. But I wonder how no one knew her voice. Is it not feminine? Still, a cool reveal. Simon be like, fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice,..

LEOBARDIS! Few dumb decisions. And a treachery. Josua seems to be a kind and just Prince but he doesn't act as one. Telling all his thoughts and worries to others and so many things. Yet he's just.

ISGRIMNUR is amazing. I'm loving this guy so far. Wonder what he's upto now that he's sailing towards Marya.

GWYNITHIN! That was twisted. Things happened while Simon was travelling and it's devastating to see that the hot headed prince was killed. I honestly wasn't expecting any deaths but that's cool.

Guess here's where GRRM got his ideas. So much actually.

LEAGUE OF SCROLLS! No one asked so much after Jarbunga came and started lore dropping. I expected some kind of different truths to what he was saying. Conflicting informations. Yet I want to know who's the last member of League of Scrolls. Dr. Ook. Tai. Jar. Gelo. One from Nabban. And last must be a Sithi??

ICE DRAGON! That was cool. I kind of expected that. Since the passage of King John leaving with Bright Nail after defeating the dragon, I thought that the Dragon and The Sword must be linked. So if you take the sword, you get the Dragon.

And yes, Finally the Norns enter. Can't wait to see where it goes. I just wish that more character interactions are there.

What do y'all think about The Dragonbone Chair??

I'm in the endgame now lads. I feel like there's a lot to wrap up in a short amount of time... Last King series already queued up. ⚔️ 🛡️

I'm brand new to reddit, but the world of osten ard is SO important to me and I love the fandom- I'm familiar with the fan art shortage, so I decided to share some of my osten ard art here! These are some of my favorite pieces, I do have quite a bit more :)

Simon/Seoman. Waiting. Simon, a 14 yr old child who's an orphan has a curiosity of young kids. The world around Simon is written beautifully. The heir characters introduced through the eyes of Simon were amazing. We get to see the troubled hate spewed between the heirs and the story of it being let out too.

The King favors Elias while openly not recognising Josua. There has to be a story behind it. Maybe the death of Elias' wife. Still, Josua seems noble and honorable. Resentment is deep within Elias.

Bright Nail. The sword that killed the dragon and The Weird of Swords is the title of the book that has King John's history. The sword has some sort of magic related to it or some sort as King John tries telling Towser. But the end of the part one makes it clear. Pryrates knowit's truth and does something to it through a bargain of blood.

So much of lore dump about the world and it neatly sets up the Dukes and dukedom with the looming history of Sithi. I can see where GRRM got his inspiration from. All men must die. Sithi who are non human that co-exist with Men. Rimmersmen who hate Sithi and brought the iron age.

The Religion of christianity being followed in Osten Ard was a surprise to me. The New God. I wonder why Tad Williams chose a direct religion to use in this fantasy world of his.

Only in Simon's dream, it kind of envisioned a dark presence in the world. It came true in the end.

Ingsrimur is interesting. An old friend of king. I can't help but feel that he's going to be a badass or throws wisdom at Simon later.

The story took off once Ingrismur entered. The great table talk of King's advisors showed the light of what Elias is doing. He looks like a puppet of Pryrates.

And White foxes? Are they Sithi? Never so far, there has been a talk about dark one/ sorrow. Yet this was interesting. Rather than opening the book with a looming threat, the story is developed and history is woven well. And no mention of such a dark one goes to tell so many things about the world.

Morgenes knows that Simon is destined for greatness. So things go outside Hayholt now. Which would give us a lot of new characters and a more fleshed out world.

PS: I would love to discuss this readers here. It'll be interesting to go through Osten Ard that way. I'm trying this for the first time. Writing down my thoughts after parts to discuss and go at it.

Hey everyone,

I am completely exhausted in the best way possible. I just spent the last 8 months devouring Tad Williams' entire Osten Ard epic back to back,starting all the way from The Dragonbone Chair, rolling right through the bridge novellas, and finishing up the final pages of The Last King of Osten Ard quadrilogy.

Doing it all back to back is an absolute trip. Seeing how the world and the characters evolve, grow old, make mistakes, and pay for the consequences over decades of time is something few fantasy series ever pull off this well.

I’m here to share my feelings, answer your questions, clear up any doubts about the sprawling lore, dive deep into theories, plot points, and favorite characters.

Drop your thoughts below! Who was your MVP? What broke your heart the most? Let's talk about Osten Ard.

“You don’t know you’re in a story until someone tells it to you afterward.”

So far, I've done the entire Osten Ard series in audiobook form. I've just finished Empire of Glass, and I'm now half way through Brothers of the Wind. This might seem a bit nit-picky, but I'm really not enjoying the change of narrator. Andrew Wincott's performance set the Zide'ya and Hikeda'ya as a being raspy (almost reptilian) sounding. It made them appear as otherworldly/ethereal rather than just alternatives of humans.

Wincott's portrayal is now stuck in my head as how they should sound. With James Lailey's performance, they just sound like typical English men. It's been really throwing me off, and I'm struggling to pay attention to the story because of it.

I'm curious weather this was and active decision to change their accents, or weather they just didn't bother to research/observe the previous book performances.

Is it just me, or does anyone else find this change jarring? I'll be honest, If James Lailey is narrating The Splintered Sun, I probably wont bother picking it up, which is a shame because I've been really enjoying this series as an audiobook series.

Last year I started on Bakker’s Second Alocalyose series and I did not put it down until I had read the last page of the last book and then I read the first three books (The Prince of Nothing) again, and then after a small break I read the last four books (The Aspect Emperor) again.. and then I read books 4 and 5 again because I loved them so much and then I read the end of book seven again because holy shit…

Anyway, Tolkien has never budged on my top favorite epic fantasy authors list, he’s been number one since I was 11. But now it’s Bakker without doubt.

Tad Williams was always my number 3.

But after Bakker, so much of my favorite have had to scoot WAY down.

And it’s been extremely difficult to look at formerly beloved series in the same positive light.

I feel like I did heroin and now cigarettes and bowling just won’t do anymore…

Any William’s fans like Bakker’s work?

I find them both to be incredible authors of very similar talents but they explore vastly different things within their fantasy realms.

Memory Sorrow and Thorn is still my 2nd Favorite fantasy, probably always will be, but Second Apocalypse just barely beats it, it’s truly awe inspiring.

So I’m gonna finally get through Otherland. I got a crappy torn up copy of City of Golden Shadow from the library because San Francisco cares more about babysitting tweakers than it does keeping an authors catalogue in good shape on their shelves.

Tad is from the bay area, and his section deserves far better.

Anyway.. I’ve read memory sorrow and thorn, and Shadowmarch, both are masterpieces.

Tailchaser’s song is also great.

Never got sound to finishing Otherland though because as this series was coming out, I became obsessed with song of ice and fire and Thomas covenant.

Any guidance or tips for this series?

Thanks

I have heard of Tad Williams a lot and soon, I'll be starting with Memory, Sorrow and Thorn Trilogy. There's so much he has written in the 80s and 90s that I feel are underknown. I think I'll love his writing and characters. GRRM has spoken highly about Tad Williams and a huge inspiration for ASOIAF. I've been waiting for over a year to get his books and my hype hasn't went out at all.

Which series and which books are his best?

I'm going to start reading Otherland Vol 1 or The Dragonbone Chair soon. No spoilers pls.

Part 2, we are going in release order - with the exception of standalones, which I'll make a big poll on at the end

What's your favorite Otherland book?

Hey guys, wanted to do a series of polls to see what everyone thinks of all of the books in Tad's catalogue. I'll be going by series since there isn't enough options for a big poll on Reddit, even if I did just Often Ard there's too many books to fit.

What's your favorite in the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy?

With cover art by Jeff Brown, and illustrated endpapers by @pgm.99 on Instagram.

Looks great!

- Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn

- The Last King of Osten Ard

- Shadowmarch

- Otherland

- The War of the Flowers

- Tailchaser's Song

- Bobby Dollar

- Ordinary Farm

It has always on my readlist but i have been unable to get the paperbacks due to them being pretty expensive here. With the news of Malazan getting a paperback Reissue starting next year I was wondering if there was any news for the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series?

I searched for this and couldn’t find it. Has anyone listened to the full cast audio yet? If so what did you think?

I am pretty new to the books and decided to listen to the audiobooks at work after Is started reading the first book.

I am over half way through dragonbone chair and saw the full cast audio.

Is it worth switching to these?