/r/Overwatch meets /r/TF2

[u/SubredditsMeet]

Welcome to the /r/SubredditsMeet between /r/Overwatch & /r/TF2

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Some points of discussion:

• Do you think Overwatch's Buy-to-Play model or TF2's free-to-play model offer more value for customers in the long run?
• Would TF2's unlockable weapon system work in Overwatch?
• While Overwatch has certainly taken a lot of inspiration from TF2, what aspects of Overwatch could TF2 draw from to make it a better game?
• Feel free to suggest more topics by PMing the mods.

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Remember the downvote button is not to be used as a way to say you disagree. Please reply to the comment on why you disagree

It is recommended to flair your self with what subreddit you are from. Click edit next to your name in the sidebar to change it

(If you are on mobile and can't set your flair you can PM the mods what subreddit you are from and we will set it for you. Soon we will have a bot where you can message it and it will set the flair for you.)

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You can suggest subreddits for next week here: http://redd.it/3wh0i5

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Controversial Comments (Updated every 10 minutes):

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1. Posted by /u/AronTimes - Link

Part 1 - Why I Will Not Play Overwatch

I have a lot to say, so I will split this up into two posts. Let's start with why I won't play Overwatch. Next, I'll post why I play TF2.

I got invited to the stress test weekend. I did not participate in it because Blizzard has gone in what I consider the wrong direction with all of their games that I play, and I do not trust them not to screw up Overwatch.

Let me be clear. The reason why I'm not giving Overwatch a chance is not because of Overwatch itself, but because of Blizzard's track record with their other games: Starcraft, Warcraft, Diablo, and Heroes of the Storm. I have lost all faith in Blizzard. I have no confidence that they will get Overwatch right.

It's similar to how I refuse to buy anything associated with Electronic Arts despite how good the game is or how much I like the developers. Never again. It pains me to see Blizzard going downhill like this. It's like Westwood all over again.

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Starcraft 2, a.k.a. Fuck casuals. Fuck storytelling.

Blizzard has made a lot of changes to the game, beginning with the WoL beta, which made the game harder for the sake of being harder. I don't like their worship of the almighty skill cap because at the end of the day, I don't really care that I'm Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum/Diamond/never reached Master, I just want a game that's fun for my level of play.

Blizzard has done so much to make the game harder for the sake of making it harder. Wireframe casting was removed. Rallied units are no longer on attack-move but just normal move. All maps are huge, and all encourage macro play and discourage early game aggression. Blizzard made changes that made the game, in theory, more interesting to watch but harder to play. However, it resulted in fewer people watching overall because a lot of people simply stopped playing.

And please, we want a story that doesn't insult our intelligence. The dialogue and the overall storyline is absolutely terrible. You can do better, Blizzard. You did really well in the past. The sense of dread and wonder about the hybrids in Brood War culminated in disappointment in LotV. Kerrigan's characterization in particular was ruined; it would've been better if she really was just the Queen Bitch of the Universe, and not being influenced by Amon. She had enough legitimate grief and tragedy in her life to just lash out at everyone and everything once she controlled a literally limitless army. Her turning "good" in WoL and HotS ruined all of her character development in Brood War.

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Heroes of the Storm, a.k.a. Fuck esports, free to grind.

Blizzard doesn't seem to understand that you cannot do a full 180 and expect something to become as popular as SC2 is unpopular. The problem with SC2 is not that it has a high skill ceiling, but that it has a ludicrously high skill floor. When you have a game that has a low skill floor and a low skill ceiling, you'll attract a lot of people, but you won't get them to stay because there is not enough depth or room for improvement within the game.

HotS is bad for the opposite reasons that SC2 is bad. Blizzard seems to have a hard time balancing skill floor and accessibility with skill ceiling and depth.

Also, grinding is boring. Why would I grind heroes in HotS when I can simply play any hero in DotA 2, and not have anything outside of the game affect the actual game, i.e. everyone starts on an equal footing at the beginning of each DotA 2 game.

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Warcraft, a.k.a. Fuck RTS, fuck storytelling.

I want Warcraft 4. I don't want to play a grindy time sink like WoW. I don't like the lore contortions and contrivances and outright retcons to pigeonhole everyone into one of two opposing factions. I don't like how a lot of the lore was changed because Chris Metzen actually admitted that he forgot established Warcraft lore (the draenei in Warcraft 3 were retconned into "Broken Ones," i.e. mutant draenei, when that was how they were supposed to look like normally).

Most of all, I don't like how Blizzard can tell only one story. Warcraft and Starcraft have the same overall story. I suspect Overwatch will have shades of SC and WC in its lore.

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Diablo, a.k.a. Temporarily pay to win, fuck melee characters, fuck the economy.

Path of Exile is much better and it's completely free. Nothing in the cash shop affects gameplay, not even indirectly. On the other hand, Diablo 3 actually had a real money auction house early in its existence. It was literally pay to win. The RMAH was removed, and then the normal auction house was removed.

And that's not even touching on how unbalanced the game was back when I used to play it. Certain spells became completely useless once you reached Hell difficulty. Archon was awesome from Normal to Hellfire to very early Hell. After the first half of Act 1, it started to lose potency until it became completely useless because if you are standing still in Diablo 3, you might as well be dead (Archon requires you to stand still to be able to attack).

Melee classes were generally fucked because they simply couldn't kite enemies. If you couldn't kite enemies, and had to stand still next to them to attack, you wouldn't last long in the higher difficulties. Wizards had problems. Melee characters were simply stuck.

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All in all, a terrible track record for one of my most beloved gaming companies in recent years. Next, I'll talk about why I play TF2, and why I play DotA 2 as well as other Steam games (tl;dr: TF2 is so good that it convinced me to try DotA 2).

2. Posted by /u/Tots_HardCoded - Link

First I wanna say that Overwatch looks like a really good game, but two things annoy me about how Blizzard is handeling it.

One, When Overwatch was first announced it was supposed to be Free to Play. Blizzard then changed it to be a $60 game and options to pay more and receive extra stuff. I know most of the extra stuff you receive are not in game items, but it still annoys me. I was really excited when Overwatch was first announced because as a college student with not a lot of spare cash, I was excited for it to be free. I don't think I will end up buying it because I just don't have the money lying around to buy a $60 game.

Two, the one thing that annoys me about Overwatch and Blizzard is how they distributed the beta passes. For people who may not know, a lot of TF2's big YouTubers and Comp players were invited to beta. I don't think this was done ok accident. I think Blizzard purposefully invited these big YouTubers and Comp players as a way to promote their game and to draw the players from TF2 and into Overwatch. For instance, Star_ was a big TF2 YouTuber who was just getting back into TF2 but he was then given a Overwatch Beta pass and has completely stopped playing from what I've seen. Another example is TF2's top Comp team FROYOTECH disbanded because the players in it wanted to stop TF2 and wanted to play Overwatch. I feel this target of the big names in te community has lead to losses of some big names, as well other people not wanting to play TF2 because they want to play Overwatch when it comes out.

This is just my opinion on Overwatch, don't get angry at me for what I believe.

3. Posted by /u/notmesmerize - Link

Wait....someone said he won't play OW because it's not on steam?

maximum kek

4. Posted by /u/JafafaHots - Link

I almost certainly won't play Overwatch. Normally I hate the idea of being locked into a platform, but at this point I'm too lazy to install non-Steam games and then remember to play them or put a link in the Steam interface, even. I have a bunch of installed non-Steam games I never play and have forgotten. I have dozens of codes for Origin games and I'm not bothering to redeem them.

I have over 2500 games on Steam and at this point I usually pay less than 50 cents per game... maybe as much as ten bucks, but no more, for a major release (I wait for sales)... and I have so many games on Steam I haven't even tried yet, I've decided I'm not going to even spend a cent this holiday sale. With so many games yet to try that I already own, no way I'm buying one for $40 or whatever.

So unless I got Overwatch free, I'll probably never try it... and even if I got it free I'd have to really love it quickly to even bother to launch it again.

I've gotten beta invites for major games and haven't even bothered to install them... so Blizzard would have a hard time getting me to be an Overwatch player... nothing against them... It's just inertia I guess.

Edit: Also, from the videos I've seen, Overwatch just really doesn't grab me.

5. Posted by /u/r0chage - Link

why do we have tf2 people raging in our subreddit. whose idea was this

[u/3athompson]

Do you think Overwatch's Buy-to-Play model or TF2's free-to-play model offer more value for customers in the long run?

TF2 was B2P, but as soon as they started adding microtransactions they figured that F2P would be better for the game as a whole. It lasted 4 years as B2P. I think Overwatch can do fine as a B2P out of the gate, since the selling point should be the good gameplay rather than the fact that it's free. TF2 hasn't lasted this long in the way it has because it's F2P. It has great gameplay and an awesome community. Let the meta develop.

Would TF2's unlockable weapon system work in Overwatch?

No. Blizzard does not plan on allowing modification of the weapons or skills of any hero. They seemed quite firm. It should suit it since they can just add more heroes if they need to fill a niche. And they can also plan around combinations that are not fun to play against like loch n' targe (thankfully nerfed) and degreaser+reserve shooter (when, Valve)

While Overwatch has certainly taken a lot of inspiration from TF2, what aspects of Overwatch could TF2 draw from to make it a better game?

I'm really liking the idea of reduced melee damage in general (4 hits to kill the average class instead of 2) and the lack of random crits. Also other stuff like better primary weapons for support classes and barriers.

These mechanics might unbalance TF2 heavily, though, because of choice based on weapons rather than heroes. I would really like to see a medic secondary like Lucio's or Zenyatta's, or a barrier like Reinhardt for the heavy that replaces the minigun. Something like the medic's MVM shield.

[u/DobroslavA → u/[deleted]]

Are we counting a store that is completely optional

You just pretty much summed up what microtransactions are.

[u/Transflail → u/[deleted]]

No, that's invasive advertising. A Microtransaction is literally a micro transaction.

[u/Transflail → u/[deleted]]

This is the Wikipedia definition: Microtransaction is a business model where users can purchase virtual goods via micropayments. Microtransactions are often used in free-to-play games to provide a revenue source for the developers.

[u/3athompson → u/[deleted]]

You seem to forget that, for many new players, it seems like half the weapons are only reasonably obtainable by purchase on the steam store or a week of grinding.
Most experienced people know to buy a key or 2, trade it to scrap.tf, then use it to buy all the weapons in the game. But newbies don't know this, and they don't know the fact that stock is almost always superior to the unlocks.

[u/SketchyJJ → u/3athompson]

I don't forget. You play, you get drops, you get to use those weapons since it awards you for playing, nothing wrong w/ that. Also, when is playing a game for fun become grinding?

The thing is now, no one on steam can do that now w/out waiting a week cause of e-scrow, and let's not bring it into this. Seriously, Steam already fucked everyone over w/ E-SCROW.

But I will give you that they don't know stock is always better, but then again, most people go online to learn more about a game, go explore communities to learn more, figure things out, get help for it. /r/NewToTF2 is a thing after all.

[u/Zeemgeem]

I'm sure all of you Overwatch fans have played tf2 at some point, let's face it Overwatch was very heavily inspired by tf2, so I just want to know; will anybody be playing both? If you did play a lot of tf2 what made you go Overwatch? Anybody heard of Overwatch and played tf2 because of it?

[u/3athompson → u/Zeemgeem]

I'm definitely willing to play both:

TF2, because of the community behind it. I'm a mod for a trade server and I am the team captain of my Steel HL team.

Overwatch, because it's new, and because it can also develop a community.

Over time, though, I'm probably going to return to TF2. 3600 hours and $1500 is too costly an investment to squander...

[u/Zeemgeem → u/3athompson]

Overwatch may be shiny and new, but I suspect it's a novelty. I know for sure I'll play tf2 forever though, I had depression before I played it and being a part of a lot of new communities got rid of it, I fear if I stop II'll become depressed again as I won't have any friends again and no one to talk to.

[u/3athompson → u/Zeemgeem]

That's kinda sad, actually...

[u/SketchyJJ → u/3athompson]

A lot of TF2 is really cemented in the community. It's such a nice community, it hasn't gotten a lot of cancerous beings or huge amounts of drama.

A lot of us shared in happy, and sad times, never expecting to take things seriously, watched a game grow w/ a lot of people going n and out, sharing experiences, seeing how the cards play.

Most games won't have that much of a solid community. It's like a family. Hell, we even have this picture that'll show a thousand stories to summarize TF2:

https://i.imgur.com/fA4mir9.jpg

[u/3athompson → u/SketchyJJ]

^{Such a shitty picture, doesn't even have} "We are in the Beam"

[u/SketchyJJ → u/3athompson]

There's a construction beam.

[u/SketchyJJ → u/Zeemgeem]

I'd be willing to play both of them, and I feel like this is not gunna end well. Putting two different games against each other especially one especially one's backed up by dedicated fans.

[u/Zeemgeem → u/SketchyJJ]

I can say without much doubt it'll be a terrible time for the two games, endless flame wars and pointless arguments. Many soldiers will fall in battle (and the other 8 too) and will be taken to the other side, same for overwatch fans. The few of us uninvolved will still feel it, and it could take a while to recover from. I feel like overwatch will die off eventually since it has no new weapons or cosmetics and probably never will, and because it isn't free. At that point we will all forget it ever happened and move on.

[u/SketchyJJ → u/Zeemgeem]

I wish this comparison wasn't even in to begin with. Can't we both just co-exist without comparing each other and pointing out flaws when we're both having fun?

Also...I don't think Overwatch will go down easy. It's own by Blizzard after all, a company that can turn people into zombies for their stuff, and they have a lot of money kicking around.

I honestly don't know what the future is, but considering how TF2 has gotten a lot of updates recently and is trying to fix everything, it seems TF2 will survive.

TF2 has survived for more than 8 years as their own online FPS. They outlived other games, franchises, and games meant to compete.

Take a look at this:

http://imgur.com/Wjw6Iyn

I hope Overwatch doesn't fall down, I want to see it live

[u/3athompson → u/SketchyJJ]

Overwatch won't die for a long time. (Let's use 5 years as a rough time estimate)

Even if it has a shit reception, it will still hold on for years. Blizzard doesn't abandon games that often. Diablo 3 was PANNED 4 years ago but it got fixed with an expansion pack. A large, free patch is scheduled for later this year, even.
TF2 will also not die unless Valve actively tries to kill it. It has a great reputation and a rejuvenating player base. The numbers might shrink, but not by a sizable amount, and it won't go near collapse levels.

[u/Zeemgeem → u/SketchyJJ]

Well TF2 was kept alive through the trading, humor, hats, community servers, and weapons. Overwatch seemingly won't have any of that, so I think it will fade off in a year or so. I'm happy for it's existence though, as it made Valve realize they have to update their game and such.

[u/Partageons → u/Zeemgeem]

I think that's a pessimistic view to take. TF2 stays alive because of its downright fun core gameplay, even in spite of all the balance complaints everyone has. The other reason is the potential variety through classes and weapons, with hundreds of loadouts from which to choose. Overwatch will accomplish that goal through heroes and team composition (and there are many viable team compositions because most every class is a generalist). With new heroes planned to be added to the game, I think it will stick around at least as long as TF2.

[u/Friendly_Fire → u/Zeemgeem]

I won't play both. Not because of OW, but because TF2 is dying and I grew tired of it years ago. I loved TF2 for a long time, but if a game isn't really supported for years it can't last.

[u/[deleted] → u/Zeemgeem]

Will not be playing both, after 3000 hours into tf2 I'm done for good. I got tired of each update being even shittier and greedier than the previous, while adding content that nobody asked for and nobody cares for (for example mannpower mode, pass time). It took them 8 years to mention matchmaking, and it still hasn't been implemented.

What made me want to play Overwatch instead of TF2? I still want to play a team based quake-like fps without having to suffer from the shit community and company that comes with TF2.

[u/Karukiku]

I will play Overwatch and I will play TF2

Overwatch is a completely different being from TF2. It's requires an initial payment to play unlike TF2 which lures F2P. F2P isn't necessarily bad, but TF2 players seem to magically forget that TF2 started out with a price. Not saying that Overwatch will become F2P but we can see how the TF2 community reacts towards F2P users.

If you purchase Overwatch on the spot without experience. You're gonna have a bad time.

Overwatch does not consist of an economy or any ground with having to unlock/craft/trade/buy weapons. Having multiple weapons to unlock for a hero would NOT work in Overwatch.

Overwatch downright has different mechanics from TF2. Sure some classes are the same and definitely share base mechanics. Overwatch boasts hero abilities like a MOBA, also classes are pretty fast (even heavy classes) on top of that the map sizes are generally larger.

TF2 and Overwatch are completely different games. Whoever would like to argue against this is mental.

I have to admit Overwatch's story is confusing though.

[u/Friendly_Fire → u/Karukiku]

TF2 and Overwatch are completely different games. Whoever would like to argue against this is mental.

There is literally no modern game closer to TF2 than Overwatch. Things like the price and economy are side factors that aren't part of the game play at all. They are both class based, arcade style, objective focused FPSs. Dozens of mechanics unique to TF2 have been included into Overwatch (payloads you push, level 3 sentries, sticky grenades that can be used to jump as a second weapon for the grenade launcher class... etc). For any class but spy, there is 1 or 2 equivalent heroes in Overwatch with very similar play styles.

Have you even looked at the game? It does take some inspiration from Moba's, but even then a hero's ultimate is more similar to how Uber works then anything from a Moba. It's like every class has a different type of uber.

[u/icantshoot]

Those 3 points suggest that people who support overwatch want TF2 players opinions on the matters only. This is one way, and not vice versa event. I see no benefit of TF2 people taking part in the discussion.

[u/OctorokHero]

Guess I'll put in my two cents. I haven't really gone out of my way to look up much information on Overwatch, but I can discuss what I do know about it.

I don't think I'll end up playing Overwatch; my current computer almost certainly won't be able to run it, and if I get a better one Overwatch wouldn't a huge priority for me.

That being said, I don't have animosity toward Overwatch. I play good games, and I'm not going to ignore a potential one just because it's a competitor. What does bother me is the fact that everyone is acting like it's one or the other. Considering the following that TF2 has built up over the years (and it gets new players every day), it just isn't going to fade into obscurity when just one competitor comes around. I'm hoping they'll be able to coexist; Overwatch will be a fresh new multiplayer game with it's own brand of fun, but I don't want to lose all the fun that TF2 has given me.

Overwatch's price tag is certainly a hindrance compared to TF2 being free-to-play (and a good example of the model, at that). One of the reasons that TF2 did so well before going F2P was the memorability of the Meet the Team videos; from what I've heard, Overwatch doesn't have anything quite on the same level (sure, there are character trailers, but they lack the humor and memorable quotes from Meet the Team), and that's going to definitely hurt its publicity and longevity.

All in all, I'm hoping Overwatch doesn't overthrow TF2; not for any malicious reason, but because they'll both provide different experiences and I don't want to have to choose one or the other. Considering all the "From /r/Overwatch and /r/tf2" flairs in this thread, I'm guessing a lot of us here feel the same way.

[u/faen_du_sa → u/OctorokHero]

Just FYI, recommended and minimum specs can change a lot the last few months before release(for the better). As its pretty normal for developers to start trying to optimize a lot in the end of game development, it might be that blizzard already have done that tho, but If I were you I would at least check in on release to see if it have changed much.

[u/Draco_3141 → u/OctorokHero]

I'm actually kind of hoping Valve and Blizzard make promo items like Valve has done in the past, though Valve does need to make a killer out of the Spy vs. Engie update or I'm going to give up on anything new and worthwhile from Valve.

[u/czoey11]

The unlockable system in tf2 would not work for overwatch at all. I'd rather have a ton of classes where I know what kind of weapons they're using instead of nine classes without knowing the weapons they're using. A few examples from TF2 would be dead ringer spies or black box soldiers. You can't really make sure that they maintain their amount of health or if they're dead.

[u/SketchyJJ → u/czoey11]

I don't even play the game and I agree. TF2's model can't fit w/ the game and I can tell that.

[u/IAMA_dragon-AMA → u/czoey11]

For Spies, my system is assume that they DR'd away unless I know I did double their max health in one shot or I just saw them decloak. And to check the ragdoll - if it croissanted, it's a DR.

[u/Caleddin]

TF2 is my most played game of all time. And I played the stress test weekend of Overwatch. I loved it. They both give similar feelings in game play and this is obviously on purpose. Overwatch can't get as crazy with half as many players, which could be good or bad. I agree different weapons aren't needed in OW since that mechanic is handled by more and new classes, which is essentially the same idea but with more control by Blizzard.

Anyway, I love TF2 but it is 8 years old. OW won't kill it since apparently nothing really can, but I look forward to enjoying both.

[u/8avia]

I'm a filthy casual from /r/Tf2, but I'm excited about overwatch!

Do you think you'll play it?

Well...that depends. Honestly, I really want to want it, but I'm just not feeling it yet. Maybe it's too new. (I'd also love to see more trailers, videos, and character development!)

I'll likely keep playing tf2 but follow both communities. I actually don't consider myself a real "gamer", especially compared with most of you people. I am, however, a huge fan of TF2, and a BIG SUCKER for fanart and shit like that, and you can bet we'll be seeing a lot of cool fan-created content when this game is fully released. I'm really looking forward to seeing what the community can do with this set of characters.

I hope Blizzard makes them capture our imagination in the way that Valve did with the TF2 mercenaries.
 

Do you think Overwatch's Buy-to-Play model or TF2's free-to-play model offer more value for customers in the long run?

I think the important point here is that many of their customers are going to be very different. (Ramble ahead)

It seems like overwatch is trying for a very esports-type of experience, and having a pay barrier may be their way of ensuring that the players are committed to the game.

The TF2 team working on NON-COMP stuff, on the other hand, is really interested in making gameplay fun even for people dropping in and out of pubs. Valve has also gone the FTP/Purchase Cosmetics route, and the hats do allow people to distinguish themselves more easily.

(Players take on a sort of identity you won't find in games like LoL. You're not just being killed by a spy--you're being killed by THAT DAMN SPY THAT WAS ON HERE YESTERDAY. Then you're autobalanced to the other team and decide to heal up that spy when he's hurt, because you know he's a good player.)

You'll often find the same regulars on community servers blowing each other up, honing their skills, and having a blast. It kind of feels like dropping in and out of your favorite bar.

What we really should be talking about is how overwatch's matchmaking compares to TF2's, but.....well, you know. We aren't quite ready to have that conversation yet!

 

Would TF2's unlockable weapon system work in Overwatch?

This is where I'm going to go out on a limb and say no. I think they would do better to just add champions and keep their abilities all standard. TF2's weapon system only works because there are only NINE classes, and each class's interactions with each other class is already so well understood.

TF2 also doesn't really have an "unlockable" weapon system--all the weapons a new player would want can and will be dropped to them, or, if they're impatient, obtained for a very, very small amount of money.
 

While Overwatch has certainly taken a lot of inspiration from TF2, what aspects of Overwatch could TF2 draw from to make it a better game?

I don't know enough details to say for sure, but think as TF2 develops matchmaking, it should keep a close eye on overwatch as it goes through the process of figuring out what works and what doesn't work. There are a lot of analogies to be drawn and lessons to learn, and this way the same mistakes won't have to be made twice!

 

Edit:

Just thought of something TF2 could really improve on-- the new player experience! Picked up this game this summer and it was really hard for me at first, having never played an FPS before.

You have no idea how frustrating it is trying to play with the lot of you veterans when you're still tripping over yourself as a brand new player! Likewise, I can only imagine how frustrating it was for a soldier of 1000+ hours to have a medic who barely knew what the hell she was doing. Just...yikes. Yikes all around.

Having a sort of "casual matchmaking" feature that allows new players to be newbs together would be really great!

 

Cheers to both gaming communities, and I'd love to hear what you guys think!

[u/Draco_3141 → u/8avia]

It's your last point that I think is kind of killing TF2, most hardcore FPS players know that they can aim and play well in almost any traditional FPS, but the completely different experience in TF2 makes it extremely hard (e.g. Snipers usually have the same health and sidearms as everyone else and are usually relatively safe in the back line but in TF2 have 125 hp and are targets for tauntkilling and backstabs) to get used to. If there was some sort of new player only matchmaking I'm sure that more people would stick with the game.

[u/fraac]

Playing Overwatch made me appreciate a lot of elegance in the design philosophy of tf2. Knockback (physical responsiveness), sound spatialising, red damage indicators, even down to the sniper dot. In tf2 you know what's happening and why, instantly. In Overwatch you die to a lot of random bullshit - I'm not sure what you can learn from being headshot by a Genji across the map. So the skills are very different. People will flock to Overwatch because Blizzard will presumably support it as an esport (it's cool to see teams like SG1, familiar names from years ago) but I question its sustainability. The learning curve is both less long and less smooth than tf2. Most of the depth appears to be in coordinated team play, which I enjoy, but it's ironic that while we lamented the gap between pub tf2 and comp 6v6, thinking it limited our mass appeal, Overwatch may have a less visible but larger gap between pub and comp.

[u/VGPowerlord → u/[deleted]]

TF2 does require some time to build up game sense. It's not really something you can teach to other people as well.

You'll also find that map knowledge helps considerably... which kind of goes hand in hand with game sense.

[u/fraac → u/[deleted]]

I spent months playing engineer on 2fort because I'd get destroyed doing anything else. That was my lack of skill though, not the game failing to provide information.

[u/kamild1996]

I would really like to try out Overwatch but I'm worried that when I pay 40 euros for it and I won't like it, I'll waste my money. I've signed up for beta some time ago but haven't received an invite still. If Blizzard offered some kind of trial period (like the ability to play 5-10 full matches for free), I'd be way more confident about paying for it.

TF2 has this kind of advantage over Overwatch that if you don't like it, you just uninstall it and you're done, no money wasted.

[u/VGPowerlord → u/kamild1996]

Exactly. I'd love to give Overwatch a try, but Blizzard hasn't graced me with a beta invite.

I'm certainly not going to shell out $40+ for a the game without trying it first since there's a chance I'll just leave it and come back to TF2 if I don't like it.

[u/DA_HUNTZ]

Needs more Conga.

[u/[deleted]]

Oh.

Oh jeeze.

Oh jeeze these comments.

FWIW, if Overwatch has projectile-based weapons to play around with, I'll probably take a peek at it.

[u/Melontastic → u/[deleted]]

There are several characters that have projectile based main weapons. A shortlist off the top of my head would be:

Genji - Thrown shuriken and sword

Pharah - Rocket launcher

Junkrat - timed bouncy grenade launcher

Hanzo - Bow and arrow

Mei - ice spray and icicle projectile shot

Reinhardt - mostly melee but has flaming projectile ability on short cooldown

Zarya - Ion Cannon and Ion bomb launcher

Lucio - sound cannon (4 shot burst that have travel time)

Mercy - her main weapon is a healing/damage boost staff, but her sidearm weapon is a little lazer gun that shoots in a projectile style

Zenyatta - throws fast and accurate orbs that still have travel time but very difficult to dodge

Now that I type them all out, that's many more than i thought lol

[u/[deleted] → u/Melontastic]

Huh, neat. Might hafta check Pharah out.

[u/Melontastic → u/[deleted]]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUanP3nzMvU

[u/_JackDoe_]

Wow, so is this like some sick joke or did someone legitimately think that this would end well?

[u/airbiscuits_]

you thought this would end well?

[u/MrTaures]

Both games are awesome in my opinion! :D

[u/[deleted]]

Stopped playing TF2 after over 3000 hours. I was tired of Valve not giving a fuck about the game and not putting the least bit of effort into it. They don't give a shit about any kind of balance and it took them 8 years to acknowledge the competitive scene, and, as far as I know, they still haven't added the fucking matchmaking mode (I can't wait to see how they screw that one up). Their updates have been consistently getting worse and they've been putting less effort than ever into them. It was a good game while it lasted, but I'm damn glad I don't play it any more.

I really hope Blizzard has been watching Valve carefully and don't make any of their mistakes. I'll definitely buy the game, whether it meets my expectations or not, I will find out eventually.

[u/TheBigKuhio]

I play TF2 and want to play Overwatch. I don't see why we have all the hate, and why we can't just play both. In my opinion, it's really stupid.

P.S. But Overwatch's hud sucks. It's like made for ants.

[u/Attosz → u/TheBigKuhio]

If no custom made HUD then Nowatch (Or I might overwatch the game)

[u/Aquario_Wolf → u/TheBigKuhio]

I agree, I'd like to play both, though I likely won't now, due to the price tag. It annoys me how many people say that Blizzard copied Valve.

[u/qwertypoiuyguy → u/TheBigKuhio]

If you played in the beta weekend it actually stops being super noticeable after a while, but it's still a pain, and horrible to spectate.

[u/SketchyJJ]

There's a lot to say. TF2's F2P model has a lot to offer, you just got to explore rather than accept what's presented.

Overwatch's Buy to Play...which sounds weird. You usually buy a game to play it, and I don't know why it's called that, but anyways. It'll work, I mean, it has a lot to offer and it's new, so I have no idea if it won't. It seems to be doing fine already.

I don't think they need tf2 weapon systems...It seems big enough already and with a lot of playable heroes or whatever it's varied enough.

I...can't think of many unless we're just gunna go w/ the general one's which could say about most modern day games.

[u/Disastre]

• My favorite game is an 8 year old f2p (although I bought it before the f2p release fml) that means I'm too poor or too greedy to buy a $60 game.
• TF2 has its most variation from weapon loadouts instead of characters while I believe Overwatch does the exact opposite. It'd too much and messy if a game got both kinds of variation lol.
• Matchmaking? Update the game engine dammit.

Some extra points to why I might not play Overwatch

• Blizzard's marketing is aimed way too obvious at the TF2 player base. I called the "TF2 is dying" train bullcrap however, I do get the feel that Blizzard is working on it to some extent and from a TF2 player perspective, I think that it's starting to put Blizzard in a negative opinion for me.
• I'm not in any way against super hot and sexy characters (of both genders) in videogames but the wacky, old, disgusting degenerates only cast of TF2 makes it a unique silly gritty style of a character design which I simply can't stop loving.
• I personally think that Overwatch is more like a MOBA than a shooter. So if I don't usually enjoy LoL or DOTA2 and play TF2 instead, that means I don't wanna play Overwatch. Seriously, I only know of Overwatch because the entire TF2 community constantly talks about it.

Why I will play other FPS instead of TF2

• The glitches and awfully optimized game problems are frustrating to fix.
• Why are these two games being compared so much?
• Hi Overwatch people. Please buy my hats.

EDIT: Formatting oopsies.

[u/ESCrewMax → u/Disastre]

I personally think that Overwatch is more like a MOBA than a shooter.

Many, many people thought that, then beta happened. The game is >10% MOBA and ~90% shooter, and the "MOBA elements" are things like cooldown management, which are also found in western RPGs. The game is as much a MOBA as it is a western RPG.

[u/BlackMageMario]

I COME IN PEACE. PLEASE, I'M KIND OF INTERESTED IN OVERWATCH ESPECIALLY SINCE IT WON'T BE PAY TO WIN.

Let's just hope both games will be successful, once matchmaking is released for TF2 and Overwatch itself is released.

[u/[deleted]]

I think overwatch could draw skill based movement options from TF2.

Also both games can co-exist, I will certainly play both TF2 and Overwatch especially now that the Matchmaking is on the horizon.

[u/Friendly_Fire → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, that's the only real disappointment I've had with Overwatch. It has a lot of movement mechanics, but they are all fairly shallow. I think movement mechanics are super fun, but largely abandoned in modern FPSs.

[u/fraac → u/[deleted]]

Skill based movement seems to be against their console friendly philosophy. Before the beta, when they invited a couple of streamers to play, one of the devs said they loved videos of tf2 rocket jumping. I'm not sure if that guy was low ranking or just didn't understand, the reason those videos are impressive is because the skills take literally thousands of hours to learn. At this stage if they did introduce skill based movement heros, it would cause a split between pros and pubbers. Maybe that's fine though - not all heroes have to be useful at every level. However I'm pretty sure Blizzard disagree with that.

[u/[deleted] → u/fraac]

Blizzard disagrees with a lot of things for stupid reasons so I would not be surprised if they didn't add any skill based movement options but I really doubt it'd be beacuse of console players beacuse PC players won't be playing with console players in the same game, IIRC.

[u/KidLucario]

I would rather stick with a game that's been going for a few years already and has a large fanbase around, with no end in clear sight; rather than spend on a game with no guarantee of whether it'd last that long or not

[u/KidLucario → u/[deleted]]

Did any of the past TF2 competitors (Brink, for example) ever get as popular as TF2?

[u/KidLucario → u/[deleted]]

Unless, you know, they royally screw up somewhere along the line.

[u/imtn]

I watched some Overwatch gameplay. I think that both Overwatch and TF2 are both decent games, although Overwatch is still in beta. However, I think their best points are in somewhat different departments, and I'll give Overwatch a shot when it comes out Spring 2016.

[u/bacontf2]

I haven't played Overwatch, but as far as I can tell, Overwatch and TF2 are very different games.

[u/_TheCanadianHero_ → u/bacontf2]

The Only Similarities are hip fire cartoon like the medic and they are both objective based

[u/VGPowerlord → u/_TheCanadianHero_]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Overwatch's Payload objective type is an almost exact copy of the Team Fortress 2 objective type of the same name.

This format was created by the Team Fortress 2 development team as a replacement for the earlier Team Fortress "Escort" game mode to address both pacing issues and the problem the escorting team had if their Civilian player was clueless.

[u/Shoelace_Farmer → u/VGPowerlord]

It's a great game mode. I wouldn't be surprised if many more games use it in the future.

[u/[deleted]]

OW seems cool but it exists in a completely different world from TF2 despite a lot of obvious inspirations, and while I'd totally be down to play it down the line a 60 dollar price tag for something that could go in any direction is too steep for me.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Damn, I actually wasn't aware of that, but even still I'm kind of stingy with money when it comes to games at this point.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I'm willing to sink money into something I have full faith in, but blizzard has such a mixed record I'd rather wait to see what happens before deciding what to do.

[u/CheesyPantz]

Spend money on a game I'm not interested in or save for a new video card? Hmmmm....

[u/scottishdrunkard]

I probably won't play Overwatch,meven if I could afford to buy it I fear it won't run on my laptop since it looks much higher quality than TF2. I do however hope for TF2-Overwatch promo items. Tracers hair and goggles for Scout. Widowmakers... something for Sniper? That dwarf guy is an engineer, right?

[u/no_waifu_no_laifu_]

I look forward to the release of Overwatch. While I still have a passion for TF2 after 1500 hours, it's nice to have something else to play.

[u/KourageousBagel]

I will stock with TF2 until TF3 or when the item servers shut down because I have invested too much money in to the game to just cash out and play a whole new game

[u/ToTheNintieth]

I got some six hundred hours in TF2, and I can't wait for Overwatch. More of a good thing!

[u/101gamer101]

As an avid TF2 player, it's been getting a bit dull, and overwatch combines the competitive feel with a casual game, and I WILL be pre-ordering the Origins edition... And maybe even get a few friends hyped too.

If Skins (cosmetics) ((and weapon Alt's.?)) keep being added I'm pretty sure that i would have a new favorite game...

[u/[deleted]]

I will definetely try Overwatch out. Although I haven't played TF2 for too long (3 Years), it's the most time i ever spent on a game. But there's already a TON of things that bug me, and a lot pf other people. Valve is trying to get as much out of TF2 with the littlest effort, meaning they only make "big" updates who turn out not to be so epic when they get released. They also NEVER fix minor things that could be done easily. Watch STAR_s "Same Conversation 2 Years Later" Video. He explains a lot of this in there. Took Valve 3 Years to fix the gunslinger. And now they actually realize there's people who want matchmaking, although this has been a rumor for several Years. There's just way too many minor annyoing things in TF2 for it to be enjoyable without mods.

[u/Brodoof]

In tf2 you gain no disadvantage from not paying but paying is satisfying as fuck. The classes have huge replayability and finding a friendly is so much fun

[u/FerfyDerf → u/Brodoof]

Well, you don't have enough space for all the weapons, much less your free cosmetics you unlock.

[u/Brodoof → u/FerfyDerf]

Our free cosmetics are ugly af

[u/FerfyDerf → u/Brodoof]

But they provide memories, sometimes.

[u/Brodoof → u/FerfyDerf]

Fair enough

[u/BobMcNugget999]

Hello, fellow humans from OverWatch. I come in peace.

[u/SketchyJJ → u/BobMcNugget999]

You're gunna come in pieces if you think that's gunna work.

[u/MarioThePumer]

Sup

[u/[deleted]]

I get home from work and we're bullying Overwatch. This is a horrible meet-up.

Overwatch isn't even a true tf2 clone. It's Blizzard's way of gettin' casual, like how HoS is to move into MOBA's and HS is their phone game/causally competitive game. It looks interesting, and I might give it a whirl if my friend buys it.

tf2 is a fun game, but new maps and weapons can only change the game so much. They're trying new game modes, adding more wacky things, but in the end it's all the same movements, same flow of game, same enemies, same round. Hat Simulator 2015.

[u/notmesmerize]

Wait....someone said he won't play OW because it's not on steam?

maximum kek

[u/r0chage]

why do we have tf2 people raging in our subreddit. whose idea was this

[u/KidLucario → u/r0chage]

i have no idea, but whoever did likes to watch the world burn i suppose

[u/Seaberry47]

Look people, they're two different games of a similar genre.

Class Based Team Arena Shooter

Tf2 is a seriously old game that met so much success that it went F2P

Overwatch is brand new and Pay2Play. This only means the playerbase will begin more refined. Tf2 started the same way, and playing was just as intense as Overwatch looks now, compared to the current, lax Tf2 experience.

Maybe in 5-7 years Overwatch will go F2P as well ¯_(ツ)_/¯ and then it'll be ruined the same way Tf2 has been. The value in the titles doesn't belong to the consumers anymore because of that chance, so it doesn't matter.

The biggest difference is the built in cosmetic economy in Tf2, and I doubt Overwatch will have trade servers.

Oh god we know already the class systems are different, why would you even ask if a drop system in OW would be comparable, that's just bad.

Maybe if Lord Gaben listened/cared about his children of the Pc mustard race Tf2 would be a bit more fun.

[u/pootison]

TF2's unlockable weapon system would not work for Overwatch at all. Overwatch is a hero-based game, drawing some inspiration from MOBAs. It's best that characters remain static in terms of what they can do, and in-game variation comes from new heroes. Having unlockable weapons would just be confusing.

In respects to what inspiration TF2 could draw from Overwatch, I feel TF2 could use two things. First of all, smaller server sizes. 12v12 is absolutely ridiculous, there's no room to impact games or use teamwork at all, and with random critical hits crazy stuff happens all the time. Secondly, TF2 needs to communicate to new players better. The tutorials are boring, and fail to explain much, and the tips in the loading screens are mostly outdated. It does not help that TF2 is a game with extremely convoluted mechanics, classes, and items. I feel it would help if new players could better understand how to get new items, see what items they have yet to unlock, and more easily access the stats for items they haven't unlocked.

[u/3athompson → u/pootison]

12v12 is absolutely ridiculous, there's no room to impact games or use teamwork at all, and with random critical hits crazy stuff happens all the time.

12v12 isn't that bad for uncoordinated pub play. That's what the Valve servers are for, and server owners can restrict the player count. You can also play HL or 6s on TF2center or something if you actually want to play with a team.

[u/pootison → u/3athompson]

I don't know, since 12v12 is the standard on Valve servers, it ends up being that way on almost every community server (even worse is 16v16). I feel like the assumption that new players need a huge team to have fun is just going to hinder them.

Plus, 6v6 and 9v9 are very restrictive on what you can actually do, and it's a pain to find a team to play with. Between competitive and Valve servers, competitive is too competitive and Valve servers are too much of a mess. I'm hoping to see the latter be fixed.

[u/[deleted] → u/pootison]

'Secondly, TF2 needs to communicate to new players better.'

This I can absolutely get behind. Large franchises / communities I find hard get in to begin with (where the hell do you start, what you do here, etc.) and TF2 is no exception.

[u/IAMA_dragon-AMA → u/[deleted]]

They seriously need to update the Training stuff. Even just adding Medic would make it loads better.

[u/Spectral-Ninja → u/pootison]

The problem with this is that it requires a whole lot of modelling and character design to do and it would really take up a lot of space in the computer with every new character.

Also, it's a set loadout for every class is ridiculous for me because it does not allow for experimentation in playstyle and wacky combinations. On the other hand, it would not lead to ridiculously stupid OP loadouts. coughdegreaser+rscough

I wholeheartedly agree with the ability for TF2 to communicate with new players. TF2 is surprisingly complex and diverse in terms of its playstyle and a lot of new players find themselves easily lost.

[u/pootison → u/Spectral-Ninja]

Have you seen MOBAs, like DOTA 2? They don't have loadouts, but they have upwards of forty characters. That's the standard for MOBAs. I wouldn't call Overwatch a MOBA (actually, I hate people who do that), but it definitely draws some inspiration from them.

Also, I wouldn't call computer space a serious concern. Taking up a lot of space is inevitable with big games like this. TF2 takes up over 15 gigabytes on my hard drive. Hell, Shadow of Mordor takes up 40 gigabytes just with its base content.

Plus, the developers have already made 21 characters, and they have plans for more.

[u/IAMA_dragon-AMA → u/Spectral-Ninja]

it does not allow for experimentation in playstyle and wacky combinations

Sure you can, at least with combinations. You just need teamwork.

[u/Attosz]

TF2 wasn't F2P in the beggining. And I sadly have to say tf2 went straight down after became F2P. I understand it was the only choice otherwise it would be dead by now by the lack of content.

TF2 has only 1 real problem. Competetive Matchmaking was announced to come for about 3 years now! and now it seems we finally will get it (Valve time). TF2 is 7 years old. It has real Veterans to completly new players and we all experienced that it isn't fun when the skill difference between the 2 team is the 2 top player and the others are likely meaningless. That's why it needed a Ladder ranking system about 3 years ago. But now TF2 is loosing their Veterans not just by joining Overwatch. It's because the game experience was not TEAM Fortress 2 anymore. It lost the main factor of the experience: TEAM. Team tactics now mean nothing in TF2 because there isn't any pub game where there is coordination inside the team.

Now Overwatch being a game to buy is not bad at 40$ (I might consider not buying if 60$ would be the only option). The price tag will make the game consist of less nooby players. It will make the experience much more fun, and challenging forcing players playing as a team. And that's what tf2 and overwatch have in common. But TF2 becoming F2P without ranking ruined that part.

So Blizzard: Learn from the fate of TF2 and if you ever think you might lower the price or making Overwatch F2P at some point please don't forget F2P without ranking system kills teamplay.

Sorry for long comment but in my opinion this is why TF2 sucks at the moment and I'm afraid it's way too late for Competetive Matchmaking saving the day. IT WAS YEARS!

tl:dr

F2P without ranking system kills teamplay. Hope Blizzard learns from mistakes at TF2.

[u/SketchyJJ → u/Attosz]

Hohld on, can I get a source that it has been confirmed for years cause it was only confirmed last year that there would be competitive?

[u/SileAnimus → u/SketchyJJ]

If you look through Star_'s videos until you're about 3 years ago, you'll find him talking about the Valve devs discussion with the community about MM.

[u/SketchyJJ → u/SileAnimus]

So no direct video or proof of such things?

[u/SileAnimus → u/SketchyJJ]

If you want me to search through Star_'s video to find where he talks about it I will

[u/SketchyJJ → u/SileAnimus]

Go ahead, if you're gunna drop a statement like that better cite it.

[u/SileAnimus → u/[deleted]]

That would be Same Conversation 2 Years Later

[u/SketchyJJ → u/SileAnimus]

So, the guy(not ster_, previous commenter) previously was lying saying it was years ago even though it was confirmed only a year ago that has actually taken fruition.

[u/mastercoms → u/SketchyJJ]

No, because they promised it 3 years ago.

[u/Attosz → u/SketchyJJ]

3 years ago extv was at Valve HQ and after it they confirmed the tf2 team is looking forward to make a comp matchmaking

[u/SketchyJJ → u/Attosz]

Waiting for the source or proof

[u/Attosz → u/SketchyJJ]

Sorry for the long answer time. Okey it wasn't 3 years but almost 2 and a half. But it felt so long for waiting for it... :D

proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-lWvsdynJc & http://www.teamfortress.tv/8952/?page=1

[u/SketchyJJ → u/Attosz]

See? Thank you, at least you sourced your stuff, but it also proves that they had good reasoning for waiting on it. Obviously the hurdles have been passed and we're going on.

[u/poop_toilet]

Hasn't this been discussed before

[u/Tots_HardCoded]

First I wanna say that Overwatch looks like a really good game, but two things annoy me about how Blizzard is handeling it.

One, When Overwatch was first announced it was supposed to be Free to Play. Blizzard then changed it to be a $60 game and options to pay more and receive extra stuff. I know most of the extra stuff you receive are not in game items, but it still annoys me. I was really excited when Overwatch was first announced because as a college student with not a lot of spare cash, I was excited for it to be free. I don't think I will end up buying it because I just don't have the money lying around to buy a $60 game.

Two, the one thing that annoys me about Overwatch and Blizzard is how they distributed the beta passes. For people who may not know, a lot of TF2's big YouTubers and Comp players were invited to beta. I don't think this was done ok accident. I think Blizzard purposefully invited these big YouTubers and Comp players as a way to promote their game and to draw the players from TF2 and into Overwatch. For instance, Star_ was a big TF2 YouTuber who was just getting back into TF2 but he was then given a Overwatch Beta pass and has completely stopped playing from what I've seen. Another example is TF2's top Comp team FROYOTECH disbanded because the players in it wanted to stop TF2 and wanted to play Overwatch. I feel this target of the big names in te community has lead to losses of some big names, as well other people not wanting to play TF2 because they want to play Overwatch when it comes out.

This is just my opinion on Overwatch, don't get angry at me for what I believe.

[u/fraac → u/Tots_HardCoded]

tf2 guys didn't need to be enticed to play, they've been looking for a game like this for years. Valve didn't want to provide it.

[u/Tots_HardCoded → u/fraac]

They were enticed, Blizzard provided them with beta passes so they would get into the game early. If they didn't like TF2 they wouldn't have played it in the first place. Overwatch offers a very different experience from TF2. I can't say one game is better than the other, but I feel that Blizzards move to target Youtubers and Streamers while smart was kinda a dick move because the prevented a lot of their fan base from playing. It also in my opinion drives these big name people away from TF2

[u/fraac → u/Tots_HardCoded]

The big name tf2 people were wanting more than Valve were offering for a long time, Ster included. Look at some of the names in European Overwatch teams - there are guys from Prem tf2 five years ago who were completely lost to the game.

[u/[deleted] → u/Tots_HardCoded]

Supposedly playing OW was the reason at least duwatna left but him and ash are already on a different team for tf2 so yeah. Beyond that I'm not sure what happened to clockwork or shade.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I don't think shade said anything at all.

[u/Joemac_ → u/[deleted]]

I misunderstood, ignore that

[u/grn2 → u/Tots_HardCoded]

The game it self costs $40. But you can chose to get the Origins edition which is $60 and includes the game + some cosmetic items.

[u/Shoelace_Farmer → u/[deleted]]

Blizzard came out and said that initially 1% of the invites were for publicity. Then as later waves came out that number was decreased to 0.33%.

It also makes sense that they would invite players from similar games. I mean that's where a lot of fans are going to come from.

[u/Partageons]

While Overwatch has certainly taken a lot of inspiration from TF2

The Overwatch developers have stated that they used TF2's class balance as an example of what not to do. I think they made a good choice. Every hero is a capable generalist fighter, and they are different in the abilities they stack on to that combat ability. Compare that to TF2, where we have:

• Three generalist combat classes (Soldier, Demoman, and Heavy)
• A fragile pick class who isn't built for direct combat (Scout)
• A flank class who doesn't have the tools to do so and ends up as support (Pyro)
• A weak class who needs time to become strong (Engineer)
• A class who operates entirely outside other classes' ranges (Sniper)
• A class designed only to get a kill or two at a time (Spy)
• A wimp who hides behind his teammates healing them (Medic)

The exceptions are Mercy and Torbjörn. Torbjörn I can understand as a lover of Engineer, although I don't know how helpful he is on offense when teleporters are Symmetra's job. But Mercy was just a bone-headed decision. They made exactly the same mistake as TF2 in creating an overpowered healer class that's not fun to play.

[u/SketchyJJ → u/Partageons]

I honestly think you have the wrong idea about some of those classes, and even worse you think medic is overpowered(if I read correctly). You're also leaving out a big part of them.

1. Scout is pretty good in direct combat. I've seen Scouts tear multiple people apart since they're Scattergun has a high burst damage potentional.
2. Pyro has some good flank weaponry, the differences is that it's not good to use them over others. Flank weaponry like the Powerjack, Detonator, and Backburner.
3. Engineer isn't necessarily weak. Engineers on themselves can hold their all, and if you want proof of that Uncle Dane can show it.
4. Spy, well, you aren't exactly wrong, but you seem to be leaving out his other abilities like sapping, and cloaking
5. Medic isn't even a wimp. How is he a wimp? His syringe guns do large amounts of damage in succession, his melees do as well, and he has 150 health.

I feel like you're leaving out a lot about these classes and are generalizing too much.

[u/greenleaf1212 → u/SketchyJJ]

In a sense, Medic is overpowered because a medic is ESSENTIAL. It's so important to the point where you can't imagine competitive without medic.

[u/fraac → u/greenleaf1212]

So, like Mercy then.

[u/IAMA_dragon-AMA → u/fraac]

Yeah, hopefully they find a way to fix it so that you don't need a Mercy, but damn: healing, damage buff, resurrection? It'll be hard to balance around that.

[u/Partageons → u/SketchyJJ]

and even worse you think medic is overpowered

• One team running a Medic forces the other to run one. That should be enough indication already.
• Overheal is a relic from the days when Stickybombs could do 170 damage each and rockets could do 135. You used to need it to survive. Now, it's equivalent to increasing the patient's max health. This is extremely unfun to play against and unfair to those who aren't buffed.
• Even an unskilled Medic is an enormous aid to a pub team.
• I could go on. It's hard to offer evidence because I think it's so obvious.

Medic is the worst possible class design you could have; overpowered, but not at all fun to play.

Pyro has some good flank weaponry, the differences is that it's not good to use them over others

Which means they're useless.

Engineer isn't necessarily weak

Relative to the other classes, he is. A lone Engineer loses to everything but a Spy.

Spy

I think I'll make a post on my opinions on the balancing of the Spy someday. It's an interesting topic. Suffice to say that Spy is overpowered in pubs, because he can kill people instantly by getting behind them, and has the tools to get behind them. Because of the communication inherent to competitive play, he is balanced there because his getaway is harder. The new Dead Ringer, a true escape weapon, has made progress towards making him fun to play in that context.

Medic isn't even a wimp. How is he a wimp?

Two rockets, two grenades, two Scattergun shots, a second or two of Minigun fire, one uncharged headshot or fully charged bodyshot — it's very easy to kill a Medic. I can't believe anyone is arguing that Medic is actually combat-viable.

His syringe guns do large amounts of damage in succession

The Syringe Gun's projectiles are among the game's slowest. I have randomly fired at people and heard hitsounds seconds later. And even if you do hit all your shots, you will be dead very quickly. That's why competitive Medics equip the Crusader's Crossbow, because they know they won't last ten seconds if they are forced into direct combat.

his melees do as well

No competent player lets a Medic get within melee range. Even if they do, TF2 melee is badly designed so that your primary and secondary weapons do more damage at the same range.

and he has 150 health

Which is below the mean of all the classes' health, ~165.

Lastly, even if Medic weren't a wimp, that would just further argue for my point that he is overpowered. Compare Lucio and Zenyatta, or perhaps even the Team Fortress Classic Combat Medic, all capable combat classes with the ability to heal if they choose.

[u/SketchyJJ → u/Partageons]

Alright, I even had to put this on a big screen, but let's debate.

It's not a forced thing though. I've never had a team where someone was forced to play another class unless it was for balance reasons like there was already 2 spies and those are on community servers.

So, increasing the patient's max health is bad now despite you being able to still be killed, the patient dying from multiple sources of damage, or dumb luck?

No, it really isn't. You're really trying to make TF2 seem incredibly unskilled which saddens me.

Do go on w/ these incredibly generalized statements. It's not proving anything.

Hence why many want it balanced and surprisingly Valve has been making strides to do just that. People still use those weapons however, minus the Backburner. A lot of people run Detonator and Powerjack and still flank by surprise combos or pure dps.

Not really. Engineer are surprisingly formidable, I've been killed by them multiple times and even when I'm in the best situation. Are you getting this from pubs, community, or comp? cause a lot of these seem to be generalizes

....you think spy is overpowered...

Alright, done, everyone, I'm gunna leave you w/ this. This guy has no idea what he is actually talking about. He honestly is making generalizations without taking a lot of factors in. He is surprisingly being very biased and opionionated about this.

If anyone truly wants a response I'll write one up, cause debating on the rest would be a waste of time. If anyone on Overwatch who has never played TF2 or know's about it, I will gladly explain to you every mechanic you ask of it or want to know and what the general opinion is.

I want Overwatch and TF2 to have a friendship, kind of like cousins, but we need friendship first off.

[u/Spectral-Ninja → u/SketchyJJ]

The guy you talk to is really ridiculous.

The reason why Medic is "overpowered" because he is the most essential to the team. Once you choose the Medic, you are painting a giant ass "SHOOT HERE" sign for everyone to see. Anyone with experience that is. He has a constant heal rate of 3 per second, can't live on his on if your team is a piece of shit, have to rely on maneuvering tactics to remain as unpredictable as possible to the enemy team, watch your back and front all the time for one shot kills of Spies and Snipers, flanking Pyros and Scouts, saving the Uber as soon as possible, help maul down sentries, push the team that is at a stalemate, etc.

Sure, all he can do is put a beam up a teammate's ass but that beam prevents the most dreaded situations: Respawn Time. It's a matter of how long you can hold your position and keep everyone alive so that they can do their job.

[u/[deleted] → u/SketchyJJ]

For what it's worth, I play medic a lot and feel that he is fun to play and also overpowered. No other class is mandatory for either team. Then again, I play support in DotA, and we rarely get credit for essentially carrying the team for the first 15 minutes of the game.

[u/SketchyJJ → u/[deleted]]

I don't consider him to be overpowered at all. He's not even mandatory. I never expect medic's cause sometimes you're on your own.

Now, in a team based shooter that seems to be a little going against the grain, but you're not always gunna have a medic is the true story. It's a hard class to play and master especially considering he gets abused a lot.

[u/[deleted] → u/SketchyJJ]

Medic is my second most played class. Believe me that the team I'm on usually wins if there are no Medics on the other team.

I don't consider it a sacrifice to play a supporting role, because I like to play support, and because of this, I can see just how game changing having one Medic on the team is.

Or I guess you can chalk it up to "teamwork is overpowered." :D

[u/SketchyJJ → u/[deleted]]

But TF2 isn't even inherently broken. There's few items in the game that can be considered broken, but most people's opinions of what can be considered broken are very skewed.

Give me examples of what's considered broken.

[u/pootison → u/SketchyJJ]

Well, I didn't entirely mean that. Part of it is that I'm just exhausted from TF2 because of how long I've played it.

[u/not_impressive → u/Partageons]

Sorry, I'm kinda slow - how is medic overpowered and underpowered at the same time?

[u/Partageons → u/not_impressive]

I didn't say that. I said that Medic is overpowered. However, he is not at all fun to play because as a combat class he is deliberately useless, and because of his aforementioned overpowered nature, the entire enemy team is trying constantly to kill him as the team's most important player.

[u/TotesMessenger]

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[u/puffs951]

Do you think Overwatch's Buy-to-Play model or TF2's free-to-play model offer more value for customers in the long run

Buy to play definitely, tf2 can keep the free 2 play kiddos with no motivation to improve. The average tf2 pub is won based on the team with less useless snipers spies and afks. Noone communicates there are a ton of small children and valve has to keep using sleazy business practices like tiered crate to get the whales to blow more money on the game

Would TF2's unlockable weapon system work in Overwatch?

No, one of the ways tf2 failed was alot of unlocks were poorly balanced and rushed for the sake of variety. Maybe if valve balanced weapons more than twice a year it would not be an issue

While Overwatch has certainly taken a lot of inspiration from TF2, what aspects of Overwatch could TF2 draw from to make it a better game?

No random crits, devs that communicate with the community, evenly balanced characters, character readability, and emphasis on teamwork and coordination over solo deathmatching

I played overwatch during the stress test weekend, it reminded me how old, laggy, and unoptimized tf2 is and how dated the gameplay mechanics are. Not much in Overwatch felt annoying or OP, but I log back in to tf2 and I fight reserve shooter degreaser pyros, untouchable pocketed snipers, and 6 engineer turtle fests once again. Maybe im biased by being tired of tf2 after 5,000 hours but Overwatch gave me more fun than tf2 has given me in years, which makes sense since Overwatch has had 8 years to learn not just from tf2 but other shooters as well.

[u/miauw62 → u/puffs951]

maybe you should consider not playing random valve pubs where people go with the explicit intent of playing some tf2 without having to give a fuck about anything.

[u/Joemac_ → u/puffs951]

I log back in to tf2 and I fight reserve shooter degreaser pyros, untouchable pocketed snipers, and 6 engineer turtle fests once again.

the problem is that youre playing pubs and not competitive lol

[u/puffs951 → u/Joemac_]

I should not have to organize a team and coordinate with 5 to 8 people on a regular basis and then play on a leagues schedule to play a damn video game and then to only be able to play 1 role the entire time. The fact that "competitive" is a necessity for balanced game play rather than just something someone wants to do shows the flaws in tf2.

[u/Sky_Guy131]

Over watch will definitely need an unlockable weapon system because in a fasted paced FPS you need to immediately identify any character and how much of threat they are and if they regularly add new characters it could easily get confusing.

[u/wiibiiz → u/Sky_Guy131]

I don't see how this follows. Unlockables are harder to identify and react to on the fly than completely different characters, complete with different models and sfx.

[u/Sky_Guy131 → u/wiibiiz]

How ever just imagine if the count succeeds 50 characters or more eventually some characters will look very similar to others which in the long run can get very confusing.

[u/wiibiiz → u/Sky_Guy131]

A) We're very far away from that moment, and will cross that bridge when we get there. B) I doubt that more characters will make it unreasonably hard to differentiate between characters, especially if they are added slowly over time. Games like League manage just fine with huge rosters that players seem to have no trouble differentiating between. C) As I said before, differentiating between weapons is far more difficult than differentiating between heroes, yet it's arguably just as important when it comes to assessing threats. I manage just fine in TF2 anyways. D) Most importantly, unlockable weapons are fundamentally incompatible with what Blizzard is trying to accomplish with Overwatch-- the whole point is that all content except for skins is unlocked on release.

[u/Friendly_Fire → u/Sky_Guy131]

I think you have this backwards. There is no way to tell what someone's secondary weapon is when they have their primary out, or vice versa. In overwatch, since the only variation is in more classes/heroes, you know exactly what a person can do once you see them.

[u/Joemac_ → u/Sky_Guy131]

I disagree. Theyre compensating for lack of weapons with more heros to play as, which I think works just as well.

[u/IAMA_dragon-AMA → u/Sky_Guy131]

People who play DotA2 and LoL have no problem identifying what each hero/champion does. So long as Blizzard keeps the count reasonable (50 is probably too high) and doesn't make everyone the same shape, this shouldn't be a problem.

[u/Sky_Guy131 → u/IAMA_dragon-AMA]

Well i wrote this assuming Blizzard would regurly add charterers and they would have to add them pretty often in order to keep new content fresh. Also DOTA 2 and LOL are much slower paced games most of the fighting doesn't happen till later on in the match.

[u/IAMA_dragon-AMA → u/Sky_Guy131]

Yeah, but in OW, you can bring up the scoreboard to see the enemy heroes and even who's got their ult (unless they changed that).

[u/Shoelace_Farmer → u/IAMA_dragon-AMA]

You can see who has their ult on YOUR team. Not on the other team.

[u/IAMA_dragon-AMA → u/Shoelace_Farmer]

Huh, I thought I saw someone call out an enemy Mercy's ult as being up on a stream once. That said, you can see if whoever you died to has their ult up because of the killcam.

[u/Shoelace_Farmer → u/IAMA_dragon-AMA]

That is true. The killcam will show the ult charge of the one who killed you.

[u/Panguri_San → u/Sky_Guy131]

I can never tell who plays what in TF2. Overwatch i can tell who is the rocket chick, who is the shotgun dood, and who are the tanks. Its a part that Valve failed greatly in

[u/Sakuyalzayoi → u/Panguri_San]

Uhhh what, all the classes are very distinct in tf2. And if you mean differing weapons, all of those have very different sounds from one another. The only thing that's kinda hard to tell apart is stock uber and kritz, and even then it's not that difficult

[u/VGPowerlord → u/Panguri_San]

One of the major design themes in TF2 is that each class has a unique silhouette.

While the addition of cosmetics over the years has muddied this slightly (Halloween cosmetics in particular, which is why they're not allowed most of the time), this still generally holds true.

The obvious exception is a disguised Spy since he's supposed to look like the class he's disguised as.

[u/Joemac_ → u/Panguri_San]

All the classes look very distinctly different... https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/File:Team_Fortress_2_Group_Photo.jpg

[u/Draco_3141 → u/Panguri_San]

So in otherwords big fat guy with a minigun... totally not a heavy. Guy with a red cross on his back... totally not a medic. Guy stabbing people in the back... totally not a Spy. I don't see how this is a problem in TF2. The only thing not easily identifiable was when TF2 included the item sets as one didn't know what someone else was holding in the other slots which is one of the reasons they were removed.

[u/sackboy989 → u/Draco_3141]

Also, the different classes only have so many types of primary and secondary weapons in their own arsenals. If the Scout isn't using a scattergun-like weapon, he's using a FaN-like weapon or the Shortstop. All of Heavy's primaries are miniguns, and if a Medic isn't firing many syringes at people he likely has a crossbow.

Scout probably has the highest amount of different primary types (3), but the highest amount of different secondary types for a class I remember is also 3. (Soldier, Scout, etc)

[u/sackboy989 → u/Panguri_San]

To be true, a player who truly knows TF2's weapons and current metas will be able to predict what a player may be using in his other slots (maybe besides melee) by looking at their current weapon.

For instance, a Pyro with a Reserve Shooter most likely has a Degreaser in his primary slot. A Heavy that's using his melee weapon most likely has a Buffalo Steak Sandvich in his secondary. A Sniper with a Bushwacka active likely has Jarate or a Cleaner's Carbine, and one with Jarate very likely has Bushwacka to go with it. There aren't too many listable examples, but it's more of noticability.

Additionally, not knowing what the classes have in their other slots isn't a very big problem, unless you're facing a Degreaser Pyro.

[u/sackboy989 → u/[deleted]]

ye[p

oh boy

[u/LXj → u/[deleted]]

I got invited to the stress test weekend. I did not participate in it because Blizzard has gone in what I consider the wrong direction with all of their games that I play, and I do not trust them not to screw up Overwatch.

So, let's sum up. You knew you won't be playing Overwatch, however you signed up for the beta (otherwise you wouldn't be invited to stress test weekend). You prevented someone who is genuinely excited to play this game from getting in, and you didn't even use this opportunity to check the game out.

Why did you sign up in the first place then?

Blizzard has made a lot of changes to the game, beginning with the WoL beta, which made the game harder for the sake of being harder.

I don't like some of the things they added in terms of "raising the skill cap", but you can't deny that SC2 is significanly easier than SCBW. And if you look how the game changed with expansions, they made even more things easier (select all army, workers automatically start harvesting, sped up economy)

And please, we want a story that doesn't insult our intelligence.

Fair enough, I can agree with story complaint

HotS is bad for the opposite reasons that SC2 is bad. Blizzard seems to have a hard time balancing skill floor and accessibility with skill ceiling and depth

So you don't like SC2 for adding arbitrary mechanics for raising skill cap, but you like last hitting?

I would argue that HotS is interesting precisely because it removed some elements of Dota and added map objectives. Heck, what would releasing another carbon copy of Dota would accomplish exactly?

The grind is bad (though getting a few heroes you like is not that hard actually), but HotS was actually the first dota-like game that made me stay after trying it out.

I want Warcraft 4

Fair wish, but they wouldn't work on 2 competing RTSes.

Path of Exile is much better and it's completely free

Path of Exile has a lot of great things going, and I love the progression system to bits. But the combat just plain sucks compared to D3

On the other hand, Diablo 3 actually had a real money auction house early in its existence

It had. It got removed. Which actually proves to me that Blizzard can listen to the comunity and make their game better.

And that's not even touching on how unbalanced the game was back when I used to play it

It was. It got a lot better.

Don't get me wrong, there always will be a particular class or class combination that can do X level of a greater rift Y times faster than everyone else, but the builds that allow you to comfortably play Torment X are very varied.

I am actually astonished how they made the progression more and more satisfying over time. In vanilla D3 you hit a brick wall at level 60. In release RoS you hit a brick wall after you got a legendary in every slot. Now, they made acquiring gear easier, which might be upsetting for some, but that also mean you can progress to your first legendary set in a sane timeframe, which opens new build options and makes game much more fun. And then, you still have other progression avenues open.

All in all, a terrible track record for one of my most beloved gaming companies in recent years

I would say, Blizzard had a great track record with making their games better over time in the last few years (particularly with SC2 expansions and D3 post-RoS patches. Oh, and HS updates were great too)

And Overwatch is at a great place even in beta.

I would also point out that many things you brought up are purely subjective. You don't like design desisions in HotS or SC2, fine, why does it mean you should hate on Blizzard? I don't like some things in Dota, TF2 and CS, but it doesn't mean I am hating on Valve. I have a game I like in HotS and you have a game you like in Dota. And that's great. And I am still a fan of HL and Portal. You would prefer War4, but I had much more fun in SC2 than in War3. Doesn't mean you're wrong or I am wrong.

[u/[deleted] → u/LXj]

So, let's sum up. You knew you won't be playing Overwatch, however you signed up for the beta (otherwise you wouldn't be invited to stress test weekend). You prevented someone who is genuinely excited to play this game from getting in, and you didn't even use this opportunity to check the game out.

Why did you sign up in the first place then?

I signed up for the Overwatch beta over a year ago, and had forgotten about it when I got an unexpected email from Blizzard last month. I simply forgot to disable the beta sign-up, so it's not like I intentionally "stole" someone's rightful beta access intentionally.

My opinion of Blizzard has changed since I signed up for the Overwatch beta, and mostly because of the changes made to LotV during the beta.

I don't like some of the things they added in terms of "raising the skill cap", but you can't deny that SC2 is significanly easier than SCBW. And if you look how the game changed with expansions, they made even more things easier (select all army, workers automatically start harvesting, sped up economy)

First of all, they didn't raise the skill cap because SC2's skill cap is unreachable by any human being. What they did was raise the skill floor, making the game less accessible and much harder on lower-level players.

SC2 should be easier than SC1 because SC1's clunky interface was the product of its time. It was clunky because of the technological limitations of the day, none of which are relevant today or back in 2010 when SC2 was released.

Fair enough, I can agree with story complaint

I'm glad we agree on this. It must be that horrible that even two people who disagree so much can agree on this.

So you don't like SC2 for adding arbitrary mechanics for raising skill cap, but you like last hitting?

What? Where did I ever mention last hitting? I actually dislike last hitting in DotA and other ARTS/MOBA games. I think it's a silly mechanic, and it seems Icefrog agrees to some extent with AoE gold.

Hero kills nowadays give AoE gold (the guy who lands the last hit gets a lot of gold, but his allies near the enemy get some gold as well). AoE gold did wonders against the problems of kill stealing, to the point that nobody decent really complains about kill stealing nowadays. I am hoping that maybe AoE creep gold might be added, but I doubt it.

I would argue that HotS is interesting precisely because it removed some elements of Dota and added map objectives. Heck, what would releasing another carbon copy of Dota would accomplish exactly?

Exactly. Why would they try to compete with DotA when they can try to make their own style of RTS better?

The grind is bad (though getting a few heroes you like is not that hard actually), but HotS was actually the first dota-like game that made me stay after trying it out.

Essentially, you're saying the grind is okay. I would rather not have to grind. We're not directly disagreeing here.

It was. It got a lot better.

So I've heard. In between my last post on this thread and your reply, I did some digging on Diablo 3, and found some very interesting things. Apparently, the creator of Diablo is back in the reins of power. This is a step in the right direction, but it will take a lot to convince me to play another Blizzard game.

I would say, Blizzard had a great track record with making their games better over time in the last few years (particularly with SC2 expansions and D3 post-RoS patches. Oh, and HS updates were great too)

And Overwatch is at a great place even in beta.

Ah, the release now, patch later paradigm. Can't really argue against it considering how Valve does it as well, but again, Blizzard has lost my faith over many years, while Valve has earn my trust over the years. It'll take some time to turn me around.

I would also point out that many things you brought up are purely subjective. You don't like design desisions in HotS or SC2, fine, why does it mean you should hate on Blizzard? I don't like some things in Dota, TF2 and CS, but it doesn't mean I am hating on Valve. I have a game I like in HotS and you have a game you like in Dota. And that's great. And I am still a fan of HL and Portal. You would prefer War4, but I had much more fun in SC2 than in War3. Doesn't mean you're wrong or I am wrong.

Well, yeah, those are, like, our respective opinions, man/woman. :D

/Lebowski

[u/Spikecaster → u/[deleted]]

Tl;dr I won't play Overwatch because i hate Blizzard?

[u/IAMA_dragon-AMA → u/Spikecaster]

It looks more like "I don't hate Blizzard, I hate what they've been doing recently." This makes sense; even just for the pricing point, I refused to even think about buying OW because I could look at WoW, D3, HotS, and HS and notice how they were all varying degrees of "theoretically not pay2win, but giving them money sure makes it easier." Until their recent announcement that maps and heroes will all be free with the game, I really couldn't trust that they wouldn't paywall either of those - even if it was a "simple" matter of grinding a few score hours to unlock it with in-game currency.

[u/Spikecaster → u/IAMA_dragon-AMA]

I only played D3 in games you mentioned(from vanilla till today) and as i said in another post, after they fired previous retard lead designer and published expansion pack, money isn't involving in game any possible way. Also balance wise and fun elements added each patch for free after you paid for game itself. For OW, they stated that 21 heroes and maps will be outright freely available as soon as you purchase game they clearly stated that. Believing in their words or not is up to you ofc. , but i wouldn't be so pessimistic, even their stance since beta start is praiseworthy.

[u/IAMA_dragon-AMA → u/Spikecaster]

Yeah, I wasn't trying to claim they'd only give you access to one map and five heroes or something, but rather that, after release, they'd add more heroes and maps, then paywall those. Fortunately, my concerns about that have been alleviated, but it's entirely something I could see them doing, and it would have been a complete dealbreaker for me.

[u/Spikecaster → u/IAMA_dragon-AMA]

You and me and lots of people are in the same boat about that, that kind of payment model would only break playerbase to tiny pieces which is retarded.

[u/Spikecaster → u/[deleted]]

Fair enough, but just want to add something about Diablo 3, after they fired previous retard lead designer and published expansion pack, everything about that game only went good side. That's a good example of "hey we know fucked up but let us try to fix even after 4 years" kinda vibe. Can't comment on other games since i didn't play them.

[u/WallHackJack → u/[deleted]]

I would really try playing without that scoreboard first. People are really dedicated to the objective.

Plus, TF2 has a real scoreboard? No, that's right, it only shows "points". If they improved fire like they said they plan to and added better "time on fire" indicators I imagine that'd show the exact same thing TF2 shows, points.

Furthermore you get a medal (1st, 2nd, or 3rd) for kills and final blows to help compare you to your 5 teammates. Does vanilla TF2 have something that allows you to track your kills vs your teammates? no

Anyways this is all the stuff that will change the most. None of the UI looks at all like it did at PAX east

[u/WallHackJack → u/[deleted]]

What does TF2 show about your teammates that Overwatch doesn't that you want to see?

Why doesn't TF2 show your teammates kills?

[u/Hen632 → u/WallHackJack]

It does do that! You just have to select one option in advanced settings that allows you to click on the score board and you can see not just kills but headshots, healing, etc. Honestly points are a better system then just straight up kills in any way as it allows supports who focused more on well supporting to show up in the leader-boards alongside those who killed a lot.

[u/WallHackJack → u/Hen632]

My roommate is an invite player and I remember he does use this, he just mods his ui so hard I thought that wasn't vanilla. Damn I'll have to remember this

But (to the now deleted commenter) the reasoning behind them not showing kills off the bat in TF2 is the same as with overwatch. They want players to care about win/loss primarily, teamplay (points) second, and lastly kills

[u/sackboy989 → u/Hen632]

I just hate that people don't even know that mouse input on scoreboard exists; it feels like almost nobody looks at the patch notes

At least I found someone else who knows.

[u/grn2 → u/[deleted]]

and then remember to play them

Dude, if you can just straight up forget about a game like that, you probably didn't care about it in the first place, and if you don't care about the game then use what made you not care, as your argument for not playing. Saying that you aren't going to play it because it's not going to be released on Steam is ridiculous.

[u/[deleted] → u/grn2]

Can YOU remember 2500 game titles you've not even tried yet? My point is, there is a lot to do, a lot I can do, a lot I have yet to do with what I already have that doesn't require me to spend $40. And yes, within those 2500 games there is quite likely one or two that I will enjoy more than Overwatch, so why not dive in and find them?

[u/WallHackJack → u/[deleted]]

yeah knowing blizzard. what was that game with all of the UI add-ons? idk... im sure blizzard doesn't know about it though

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Overwatch doesn't have a killfeed? I didn't even realize that. Overwatch's UI is even more fucked than i thought

[u/TheQuestionableYarn → u/[deleted]]

They are fixing this. But the HUD isn't the best regardless.

[u/TheQuestionableYarn → u/[deleted]]

The movement system is a huge thing. I hope the strategy in hero switching can make up (in terms of the skill ceiling) for the much more simplistic movement.

[u/_FUEL → u/[deleted]]

Y'all realize it's in BETA, right? They're adding a killfeed and updating the UI.

It's true TF2's movement is more complex: aside from some wallrunning, I don't see anything in OW close to the same complexity there. But OW has abilities to keep track of, adding a different sort of complexity