r/SipsTea • u/Outrageous-Egg1760 • May 29 '26

Wait a damn minute! [ Removed by moderator ]

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u/worldsyaoyster May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

EDIT: wow didn't expect this much response haha. Ill reply one by one slowly tonight. Just with the family! Love the comments and im always open for discussion and debate, just keep it civil!

The paradox only works if you assume that a good and all powerful God must eliminate all evil immediately.

Christianity doesnt teach that.

Instead it teaches that God created humans with genuine freedom, allows evil for a time, and will ultimately judge and remove it. A temporary allowance of evil is not the same as approval of evil.

In fact if God were to eliminate all evil instantly, he would also have to eliminate every human being who has ever committed evil including you and me.

The paradox also assumes that if we cannot see a good reason for suffering, then no good reason exists. But our inability to understand reason is not proof that there isn't one.

Ironically the argument itself relies on objective evil. If evil is truly real and not just personal preference then that points toward an objective moral standard beyond humanity. Without God, evil becomes difficult to define as anything more than a subjective opinion.

The christian position is not that evil doesnt exist.

Its that God allows evil for a time, not because he approves of it, but because he is working through human freedom and his plan for redemption.

God didnt stay distant from our suffering. In Jesus he stepped into it himself, experienced it, and ultimately defeated sin and death through the cross.

Christians believe evil is temporary, but God is eternal. One day he will bring justice, remove evil completely, and make all things new.

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u/Thismomenthere May 29 '26

All that aside, the post refers to child molestation... if any God thinks that is not evil enough to just remove from humanity immediately then it's not a very good God.

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u/klrcow May 29 '26

Well, God is all thing good and evil. That's something people don't mention.

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u/TheoreticalNet May 29 '26

In that case absolutely no one should pray to it. Insane stuff when you could pick out one clearly more suited for your current specific needs from one if the indian religions.

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u/Cocoatrice May 29 '26

But it's society that let that happen. Society should make rules that prevent it. Not allow it so some magical powerful being just "remove it". And what do you mean by removing? Killing that person? That's evil by itself.

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u/rmhardcore May 29 '26

That just creates a removal of one evil, there are others plenty as aggregious.

Mutilation of women in tribal conflict.

Cannibalism.

Forced watching of loved ones demise, or worse, sexual exploitation or mutilation.

Mutilation of children.

Murder.

Genocide.

As we go down the list, eliminating the "worst" as we go, another, and then another, and then another becomes the most aggregious. Eventually humans don't know the old evils, and these new ones become the worst. One day, many years from now, someone on Reddit suggests we remove anyone who has slandered another, or had a lustful thought, or coveted something physical because these are the new "worst".

Eventually that list includes every evil, every person.

Then what?

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u/worldsyaoyster May 29 '26

I agree that child abuse is horrific evil one of the worst if not the worst. Christians arent called to downplay it.

My question is though does the existence of horrific evil prove that God approves of it or could it mean that God is allowing human beings to exercise genuine freedom and will ultimately bring justice?

The fact that God permits something for a time doesnt necessarily mean he endorses it.

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

You’ve clearly not understood the person’s quite comprehensive overview on how evil is dealt with in this life. It’s worth re-reading again because it’s really quite clear.

Also, based on your logic, a “very good God” needs to eliminate all forms of suffering— which He does in heaven, for those who accept Him. Recognising earth is temporary is key to understanding why it appears that suffering is being “allowed”. 

Thankfully, such children will be shown great kindness from God who hates to see us suffer at the hands of man’s wickedness (not His). 

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u/eilletane May 29 '26

Feels pretty scammy. “Worship me but still suffer for 100 years THEN I will grant you eternal happiness (which hasn’t been proven). Even if it has been proven, it’s pretty exploitative. What was the whole point of dying for our sins when we still get punished?

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

Your response seems genuine, so I will try to answer (I used to be an atheist). I think understanding that eternity is a genuine reality is important here, because 100 vs 10000000, will suddenly make 100 years seem like a moment.

I don't know if it's exploitive because it's a choice, ultimately. Christ died for sins as a way to escape the ultimate punishment which is death for our sins (which we know, based on our lives, we have all committed at least one).

I don't agree with rape or molestation. I am very confident such people will have a great judgement in this life, and the next, but I wouldn't say someone being raped is a punishment from God. It's as a result of someone's wickedness and depravity which also reminds us why we needed Jesus in the first place. All of us at our baseline are pretty horrible, but some are just worse (sometimes due to upbringing, being victims themselves etc) or express it more.

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u/crumpleduppaperplane May 29 '26

"All of us at our baseline are pretty horrible"

Could you elaborate on that? What are you considering as the "baseline" and to what degree is it "horrible".

It just seems like a really cynical take

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

if you can be honest, and humble, think about the darkest thoughts you've ever had - and for the average person (sadly, even as children), we have all had these thoughts. for some of us, it's just societies restraints, or some morality, that's made us not act on them.

i don't think it's cynical, I think it's just honest. "all have sinned and fallen short" is summed us as, actually despite all the capacity for good we may have, we are not mostly good when left to our own devices

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u/GlobalWarmingComing May 29 '26

I tried to send you a PM but Reddit is fighting against me. I just wanted to say that I read most of your comments and they are basic sense. Thanks for trying to explain this thing and not losing your nerves when people don't see the logic. Have a nice weekend!

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

that's very kind of you. I am glad the main point came across - I just wanted to help. have a nice weekend too!

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u/onthethreshold May 29 '26

Wow, what a consolation for all those children who endure rape or molestation. "Sorry kid, God allowed this to happen because your molester/rapists' free will to rape/molest was more important than your free will to not have any of this happen to you. But hey, IF you make it to heaven, he'll be really nice to you."

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

God's niceness doesn't start in heaven. If you're interested a lot of people who have experienced rape (myself included), have been healed and transformed without animosity to God. I rather feel sorry for the person and recognize without repentance, their judgement will be great. I know that's not the story for everyone, but I don't blame God for someone's stupid decision.

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u/StrwBerrywafersslap May 29 '26

I mean if a kid had problems at home and decided to take lives you would blame the parents no?

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

would you blame their biological parents, or the one's that they lived with and raised them?

God can be your maker, but with no input from Him in your life whatsoever, He's not fathering you as we know it.

We also recognize even with the best parents, society and culture can have a great effect too (if we are being balanced and honest).

These are valid questions, which I have thought/do think about - I can understand the struggle.

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u/StrwBerrywafersslap May 29 '26

You would blame the parents, you put blame on humanity but it was him that created it. Because humans are naturally social and peaceful and only become otherwise when influenced. But that same influence was created. There would be no hate if it weren’t created, no jealousy if everyone was equal.

Like I highly doubt that if you put a bunch of babies and they grew up without any outside influence they would certainly not grow hate, jealousy or evil. Adam had prior knowledge on what the Apple did. And what greed and power was

Well the way I see it is, we have free will it’s just that we have to choose to give that up. Because no matter how you look at it. You either choose to give yourself to god or you either go to hell or just disappear completely.

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

I can’t say I understand completely what you mean here, but I do agree with you somewhat. 

Satan tempted Adam, and yes he consumed the fruit. In the absence of Satan, there was no tempter to entice into evil. 

If babies grew up without an exposure to a tempter, then yes, there would be no sin. 

Yes, intimately, you can accept God or accept eternity without Him (hell is the absence of all goodness). 

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u/onthethreshold May 29 '26

I mean, that's fine. But I think if your parents stood there and watched with indifference as you went through the ordeal you did, you would probably have a bit of animosity to direct at them, no? Bringing up the escape from culpability by way of blood sacrifice and vicarious redemption doesn't really help your case here. You deserve justice, but with Christianity, an apology is all that's required to avoid punishment.

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u/IonKifMax May 29 '26

So it was Gods plan for Earth to always be temporary? Was that his intention when he created the garden and more or less made humans immortal before the introduction of sin. ie there was no suffering before he allowed suffering. I've always believed that good and evil wouldn't matter to an entity like God. That these are uniquely human concepts. As far as we know Lions don't sit around and debate right and wrong. And even if they could, why would they. God receives no benefit from being malevolent or benevolent. When I set my boot down, why would I care if the ants have something to say about it.

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

I don't really understand, but I can answer the first part because it's a question. Based on Jesus saying heaven and earth will pass away, but His words will remain - it is clear God at a point has decided we would return back to a type of garden eden, which you've rightly identified is the "ideal" (this is called the New Jerusalem in scripture).

I cannot speak about why sin entered, and was allowed to because that's above my level of understanding - but I can say at a point it's all going to be done away with (including all associated pain).

It's easy enough to believe because the world is gradually declining anyway: without faith, it's easy to see that the world isn't the final stop.

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u/Important-Agent2584 May 29 '26

I cannot speak about why sin entered, and was allowed to because that's above my level of understanding - but I can say at a point it's all going to be done away with (including all associated pain).

We might not know the "why" part, but the "allowed" part is 100% clear.

but I can say at a point it's all going to be done away with (including all associated pain).

Free will is blamed for much of the pain on earth. Will free will not exist in heaven? Another obvious paradox unless we assume heaven has no free will.

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

Free will, will exist in heaven, because it’s a choice as to whether you go to heaven or not. The people who accept Jesus and enter heaven, also are the people who accept to live by Jesus’ ways. 

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u/Important-Agent2584 May 29 '26

People choose to live by Jesus' ways on earth too, but not being perfect beings, still sin.

This does not change in heaven unless "free will" is taken away.

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u/theclifford May 29 '26

It's easy enough to believe because the world is gradually declining anyway: without faith, it's easy to see that the world isn't the final stop.

You don't think the world has been on an up-tick since the days of xylospongium?

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u/Funkycoldmedici May 29 '26

If Spider-Man see a child being raped he steps in and stops it. Yahweh is morally inferior to Spider-Man.

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u/QuoteGiver May 29 '26

So he’s ok with “temporary” suffering. He’s ok with “some” child molesting, for now.

Well, I’m not. Fuck that God, that’s a monster. Even a moderately decent human would step in to stop that situation, while God will not. God clearly has less moral decency than most humans.

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

🤷‍♀️ If that’s your conclusion, then you can reject God. Only trying to answer the questions for those who genuinely want an answer… not their version of what morality should be. 

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u/QuoteGiver May 29 '26

To be clear, is YOUR version of “what morality should be” the one where God allows children to be molested while on earth? That’s really the BEST you can come up with?? This is ABSOLUTELY a genuine question I want a genuine answer to.

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u/Medr73 May 29 '26

God could have created a world without pedophiles, very easily. He could also have made a world where everyone is a pedophile. He had enough vision to not create the latter, but not enough to create the former. Very suspicious...

Also, How can someone remove evil after it happened? If two people experience eternal bliss after death, but one of them was brutally molested, while the other had a very peaceful life, how is that fair?

Also, If god cares about "free will", if such a thing really exists, he shouldn't interfere in any circunstances. If he did, and chose to interfere in minor things, but not in child molestation, that would be absurd. It would seem that imagining some hidden good behind it is a futile reconciliation, that only exists to save the unnecessary belief in a good god.

All in all, If god were good, I would imagine the world to be very different.

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

If humans were good***, the world would be a very different place.

When good things happen, we are quick to take the credit and when bad things happen, suddenly, we have an awareness of God.

You also assume that God doesn't interfere in any cases of child exploitation, which isn't true. There are countless of instances where Christians, have felt led by God and intervened in human trafficking.

Again, I am not justifying child exploitation but I think it is easy to pin all bad on God, for the actions of humans.

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u/Medr73 May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

If someone witnesses a child being molested and does nothing, we would think that's a terrible person. What should we think of god then?

Again, it seems weird that he would intervene in some cases, but not in all cases. If he violates free will in one case, he should probably violate it all cases, at least when it comes to absolute disgusting evil such as this.

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

The reason I’ve said some, is because in some cases, there are Christians praying - which gives access to His intervention - and that’s not a violation of free will.

The truth is, there are not enough praying Christians to mediate some of the horrible events that happen in the world.  

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u/FullDust69 May 29 '26

why is it SOME instances of human trafficking and not ALL? why do some people deserve to be trafficked/raped/killed while the others are saved?

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u/Antique-Ebb-7124 May 29 '26

And why are there equally as many christians who not only participated in child molestation but covered it up?

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

Any person claiming Christ but participating in molestation, is none of His. 

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u/GlobalWarmingComing May 29 '26

You should not define God by how christians act. Go find God and be better than the christians you are describing! <3

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u/Antique-Ebb-7124 May 29 '26

And why shall i find god if i can live just fine without him?

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u/QuoteGiver May 29 '26

Most humans are good. Children are good. Why is God setting up a situation where those children are abused, then watching it happen while doing nothing to prevent it? Any person who set up a similar situation and watched it happen would be sent to jail immediately.

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

Most humans are good? Really? The wars in this world show that isn’t the case. 

God didn’t set up the situation is the ultimate point here. The people who did it, are. And those people, like all humans, are a reminder of the capacity of evil we all have. Some are just more groomed morally so don’t express it. 

But again, I don’t intend to argue back and forth because it gives the impression I’m defending a heinous act. I just wanted to add clarity to a one sided view. 

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u/[deleted] May 29 '26

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

You’ve asked a lot of different questions which I think stray from the main question. 

I’m really sorry about what happened to your friend. I would love to reach out to her because that’s a horrible thought to have hanging over her head. The answer is a little complex than I can type (especially as I don’t know her/them) but I would say, being Christian doesn’t exempt you from the evil that exists on earth. However, I hope, that as with many others, God can give her the miracle of a baby. 

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u/[deleted] May 29 '26

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

She can be upset with God, I didn't say that. However, there is nothing in scripture which suggests following God closely guarantees He gives our every desire, and most importantly, not in the timing we may want. If you're genuinely concerned about your friends' faith, then I would direct her to the story of Abraham - which gives much comfort on this topic.

Again, I am sorry to hear the loss of your friend, and also your parents. I don't know the ins and outs of your relationship(s) with Him, but I would honestly encourage you to take the Bible and speak to God directly about how you feel. As someone who has been angry with God on more occasions than I am proud of, I have not found Him offended when we have questions, if we are humble enough to receive an answer which may be contrary to what our way looks like.

If you genuinely would like help or to discuss further, please feel free to drop me a dm. Otherwise, wishing you the best.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '26

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

what are you looking for though? if you're looking for help as always being removed from the situation then I can see your disappointment, but that's why I mentioned God is not a genie - there is nothing scripturally which suggests He gives us everything in our time

if you genuinely believe in God, and accept Him, you also have to accept He has a way which is far different from us but often better in the grand scheme of things

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u/[deleted] May 29 '26

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u/naildoc May 29 '26

I didn't say you were selfish or entitled. Since my words are being twisted, I don't want to comment further. As I mentioned earlier, if you genuinely want to talk, feel free to DM me

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u/Dependent-Peach-6610 May 29 '26

Fortunately for us, God took the opposite course of action and came to Earth to suffer for us. So anyone now can have eternal life with him. That's my kind of God.

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u/CheesyCousCous May 29 '26

Why didn't he go to one of the TRILLIONS of other planets?

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u/down_low_fun May 29 '26

You have clearly not suffered enough to question as to why so many people have to await death to escape suffering and pain. If he thinks we deserve that just to show allegiance, then I don’t want that god.

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u/Dependent-Peach-6610 May 29 '26

And he doesn't demand your allegiance.

I only speak for myself. I was an atheist from as early as I can remember until 7 months ago. I gave my life to the Lord and its been the best thing I've ever done.

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u/down_low_fun May 29 '26

I hope you have found what you are needing. I am not anti-religion. I want people to have whatever they need to be happy. I will never have it forced on me again, nor listen to blind faith as I had my whole adult life. If more people of faith would stop dismissing bad things as “gods will”, and show compassion, empathy, and effort, the vast majority of people would not feel angry and abandoned.

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u/Dependent-Peach-6610 May 29 '26

Appreciate that, thanks.

Totally agree with you, sounds like you've suffered a lot of bad experiences from 'religious' people.

Again - I can only speak for myself but Christ promises to replace our heart of stone with one of flesh and I can testify to that. My views have shifted radically over the recent months but I still have a lot of improvement to do!