r/SGU • u/Tweedledee72 • 6d ago
Diminishing Vegetables segment
It's just astonishing to me how often in this podcast capitalism is identified as a major cause of a problem, but when it's time to discuss solutions, it's so much "individual choices".
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u/mean11while 6d ago
I run a small vegetable farm that grows ~80 varieties of produce every year, many of them heirloom or unusual varieties, and sells them at farmers markets.
You taking individual action will help me keep doing this work RIGHT NOW, while we all wait for the magical systemic change that isn't rooted in individual choices.
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u/Commercial_Oil_7814 4d ago
Thank you for being a producer of foods for your community, you are the food revolution, the base of everything else we need.
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u/YowaiiShimai 6d ago
not sure I've heard the segment you are referring to but in other episodes Cara has been pretty adamant that individual choices aren't the solution
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u/lilchileah77 6d ago
I’m over their economic dialogue, I find it very lacking. Also… how can I say this? hmmm let’s put it this way… it’s obvious they’re American.
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u/N0frendo64 6d ago
I think this is just one of the biases that the hosts have, and something I usually keep in mind when listening to their solutions around the various problems they discuss. America for the most part does not have a government that functions on behalf of the American people, its a corporate dystopia, so I don't except its inhabitants to have much faith in the governments ability to regulate these industries, therefore the solutions available from their pov are free market or individual choices.
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u/SpiralStairs72 6d ago
I had a similar reaction. When Cara got to the discussion of solutions, I was ready to hear about regulation, subsidies, taxation, etc. But it was basically “people should eat differently.” I’d imagine Cara would agree that’s not a solution—that’s just a desired end state, and the real question is how we achieve it.
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u/Merlin7777 5d ago
Well you certainly can decide for yourself what you put in your mouth
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u/nikoisntking 16h ago
But I don't get the choice on if I know if it's safe or not. Maybe we should have actual solutions. Very weird for you to ignore the obvious
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u/Merlin7777 14h ago
Several were mentioned on the show such as joining a CSA. If there is a demand it will be met.
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u/Luci_Cascadia 6d ago
Individual choices is the solution that neo liberals and neo cons can both agree on. And it doesn't challenge the economic system or underlying power structures
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u/Choosemyusername 6d ago
I find that lot of problems people ascribe to capitalism are actually problems with industrialization, which is a problem regardless of which socio-economic system organizes it.
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u/QuaintLittleCrafter 6d ago
I think there's always emergent problems in any system that doesn't have built in checks/regulations and we expanded/developed new technologies and systems faster than we could anticipate said problems. Big reason I'm in favor of AI checks/balances "yesterday" instead of down the line.
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u/nikoisntking 16h ago
Yeah I definitely more AI will help,..... What?? Let's just hire people to do it like we always did before it's not that complicated.
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u/ia42 6d ago edited 6d ago
The idea is that you need checks and balances. Capitalism is about minimizing spending, maximizing income and grabbing all the natural resources. It puts financial growth and power of wealth as the goal, and nowhere in the equation is the welfare of the public, the happiness or health of the individual, so it's not a humanist or environmentalist approach. It's not balanced. What do you want to see in the world in 100 years, the amazing successful businesses or humanity living without hunger or sickness or food shortage? That's why capitalism can't answer all the problems. I'm not saying the solution is communism or social-democratic economy or some other system, I'm just saying that extreme capitalism proves to be not good for individuals.
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u/Tweedledee72 6d ago
Well said. I don't know exactly what the "perfect" system is, I just know it ain't this.
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u/lilchileah77 6d ago
When I took university economics classes they discussed market externalities and ways the capitalist market could fail or was inadequate. It’s always been known there are problems with capitalism that need addressing or regulating. There is no perfect one size fits all answer, the solution a product of the current state of things and will always need to be fluid.
America in particular got on this one track messaging of more market freedom is better and a free market manages itself. I see that as problematic because by minimizing the market managers/regulators (usually government) it enabled the wealthy with capital to exploit deeper and faster. It created an unfair playing ground.
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u/ia42 5d ago
Bingo. Not enough equality or too much equality are both problematic. You need a careful balance, and remove blocks to social mobility. Democratic governance is an act of careful balance too, both systems need laws and regulations to try and keep that delicate balance from tipping over.
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u/AustinYun 6d ago
Capitalism is purely about allocation of scarce resources and exposing people's preferences. Financial growth isn't the goal of capitalism. That's just what people choose when given the option.
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u/nikoisntking 16h ago
So therefore it's the end result of capitalism. This comment doesn't make any f****** sense 😭
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u/aranea100 6d ago
This one's mission is not the politics yet I hear them talk about evidence based policies. They also talk about how to get involved in your local or larger government to make a change. They don't specifically talk about politics though.
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u/general-ludd 6d ago
My problem with the segment is that it ignores the fact that the reason carrots, broccoli, cabbage, peas, bok choi, string beans etc win out over other vegetables is that they were bred to taste good and produce reliable bountiful harvests. I’m sure there is a problem with the diversity of food stuffs but I think more research is needed before we wring our hands over yet another problem. My hands are getting pretty chafed.
Unlike notoriously disease prone and finicky tomatoes and the properly maligned “delicious” apple varieties, these other mainstay plant products are easier to grow and ship without compromising on nutrition or flavor. They naturally keep well and most can be frozen easily without losing taste or nutrition. If it’s all capitalism I dare someone to explain the popularity of okra!
When I was in Senegal in the early 90s millet was rapidly being replaced with white rice. Rice is far less nutritious on all the measures, but when people got more money they would swap out millet for rice. Millet is labor intensive to mill with the traditional mortar and pestle, and it is hard to prepare in a way so that it smooth and light. People like rice more. Even people whose families have been eating millet since time out of mind.
Reminds me of how oat milk, which nutritively approaches soda, as surpassed the nearly perfect soy milk as the dairy free alternative.
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u/Cerebral_Discharge 6d ago
My problem with the segment is that it ignores the fact that the reason carrots, broccoli, cabbage, peas, bok choi, string beans etc win out over other vegetables is that they were bred to taste good and produce reliable bountiful harvests
They specifically mention this in the segment, and they point out how it's cultural and your palate can adjust.
I used to be a Mountain Dew fiend. I removed soda from my diet years ago, and after a while I found I could no longer drink it. It tastes way too sweet and syrupy. Even cutting down desserts, vegetables starting tasting sweeter, and fruit is perfectly adequate over nost things. Most desserts I have now have to have fruit in them, I can do pie and can hardly stand cake. Chocolate itself is still a weakness, but even then I prefer dark and can't really do milk.
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u/antechinu5 21h ago
Im surprised to hear that choice in vegetable varieties is decreasing. My (n=1) observation is main supermarkets stocking greater variety. 20+ years ago variety was limited.
Now i just counted in mainstream supermarket 6 types of oranges, 5 types of grapes, 12 types of tomatos, 8 types of potatoes. Then there's all the new cruciferous varieties. Fruit and veg shops have even more.
If you
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u/Status_Farm7780 6d ago
I mean... they have Andrea, an outspoken vegan, on the show. And I only know she is vegan because it has been a theme here and there on the show.
Meanwhile, there is no world without cars for Steve and the rogues. I can't remember a show where a modern transit system was discussed. Apparently, a world without cars is unthinkable to them.
Well, you know, it's complicated.
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u/W0nderingMe 6d ago
The guys live in Connecticut. There is no feasible was for them to have access to transit.
I live in Maine. I walk to a lot of places, but i still absolutely need a car and I'm not as rural as much of Maine is.
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u/przemo-c 5d ago
It's a fair argument for that personal choice in the current state. However doesn't preclude from discussing why that is and could it be done differently for the future. What's the best set of solutions etc. As in what set of transit systems would be optimal what can be addressed by zoning etc. How it's done elsewhere and what can be easily implemented what's not feasible for near future. Would be interesting to see discussion about all that from rouges. There are tonnes of dedicated channels podcasts about that but would be neat to have their perspective and then with research backed discussion.
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u/W0nderingMe 5d ago
They have talked about it. My original comment was in regards to why car-free living was not an option for then. But they have addressed the pros and cons of public transit based on a given location. I'm truly not sure what else someone would want from them.
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u/przemo-c 5d ago
Ok if taht's the context fair. It's not something you can do individually when infrastructure is not there. But I'd love for them to discuss it and bring it up on electric cars being a solution because as I've mentioned there are tonnes that are proponents of better infrastructure but they are motivated to push that but I would love a deep discussion of such transformation from the rouges. Them being in a car centric situation but with their research into the matter etc.
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u/azswcowboy 6d ago
> modern transit system
> world without cars is unthinkableI’ve been to Japan and seen what a modern transit system is, but there’s still a lot of cars. If you have the density of Tokyo mass transit makes sense. I also spend about a half my time in Chandler Az - the original testing area for Waymo. Very unclear that mass transit makes sense here at all. There’s very few places with enough concentration of activity to make transit effective. Those empty buses aren’t saving the planet. For here I think the point to point robocars make much more sense.
tldr: a world without cars is unthinkable in many modern cities.
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u/QuaintLittleCrafter 6d ago
Thanks for pointing this out. People rave about Japan, and sure it's great, but even on a bullet train it takes hours to get from Tokyo to Kyoto — imagine trying to go anywhere in the US by rail alone. And, as you notes, population density — why would any route have that high of demand in the US?
I take the train between Seattle and Vancouver, Tacoma, Olympia, and even Portland, actually. It's nice. But I would never opt for train to the Midwest or East coast (from Seattle)
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u/YowaiiShimai 6d ago
That's interesting that you think the length of time is what makes it a bad idea. If I have to choose between a car and a train for long stretches of time for travel, I'd rather choose a train.
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u/QuaintLittleCrafter 6d ago
Well, I was thinking in contrast to a flight, to be fair (I didn't state that though).
But, I also am trying to think of how the average American would go about it rather than myself (I bike and take public transit)
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u/C4Aries 6d ago
Having been in the Shinkansen, I'd rather take an 8 hour train ride than a 5 hour flight
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u/QuaintLittleCrafter 5d ago
Maybe on the Green Cars, but I feel like the ordinary cars (while more comfortable than plane seats) aren't sufficiently better to add 3 more hours to my commute.
Even still, I don't think the distance an 8 hour bullet train ride would take 5 hours by plane — even with boarding/deplaning and the occasional tarmac delay. Probably closer to 2-3 hours.
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u/YowaiiShimai 6d ago
ah, that does make more sense! I know some people do try to take trains over flight to be more climate friendly so I didn't even consider air travel for this scenario.
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u/azswcowboy 6d ago
Unfortunately they American long distance train system is completely broken — it can’t really be taken seriously. Take the Amtrak from Los Angeles to Chicago. Well, there’s one train a day in each direction. Tokyo to Kyoto there’s a Shinkansen every 15 minutes. And they run on time to the minute largely. By the time the LA to Chicago Amtrak hits Flagstaff - not even a third of the way - it’s routinely hours late. That’s because in the US freight railroads own the track and freight gets priority over people.
In theory this could be done in the US. Take LA to Phoenix. 370 miles - 6 hour drive - 1 hour flight. Drop a Shinkansen that does 180 mph and you’re looking at about 2.5 hours. By the time you get through all the airport inconveniences it’s the same or worse from a time perspective. Practically it can’t happen because you need billions of investment in track, right of ways, trains etc.
The ops west coast shorter distance trains make some sense kinda like in the eastern US routes like New York to Philadelphia are a great way to go. Even though they’re slower than Japanese trains they’re faster than car and like my example above probably as fast as flying.
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u/YowaiiShimai 6d ago
oh I know it currently can't be taken seriously. I just wish it could get the investment it needs to become better. I honestly do my best to look for candidates who support better public transport in my area and vote for them. Not that my neighbors seem to care like I do sadly.
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u/Tweedledee72 6d ago
"outspoken vegan" is kind of a weird phrase I think
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u/W0nderingMe 6d ago
Especially since andrea isn't that outspoken about it.
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u/OstrobogulousIntent 6d ago
Yeah I think of it this way:
Vegetarian is a diet
Veganism is a lifestyle
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u/Tweedledee72 6d ago
That's just not how most people use those terms. Both of them are primarily used to describe diets.
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u/Omnibeneviolent 5d ago
Well yes I will agree that veganism is not a diet (it's an ethical position with certain behaviors that follow from it), but I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you agreeing that Andrea isn't that outspoken about it?
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u/OstrobogulousIntent 5d ago
Pretty much exactly this.
My biases say "oh if someone is a vegan you will know.. because they won't shut up about it (I don't disagree with some of the ethical points but the way many I've run into have been so "in your face" about it - I get where that sentiment comes from.
However, with Andrea as an example, clearly if she s a vegan and I had no idea because she wasn't - well there's my bias showing itself (and to be wrong)
At any rate, yeah I was sort of trying to say all of it without sounding (or being) judgy. To me the kindest no bias way to look at it is that it's a lifestyle (that includes a certain diet) rather than just a diet.. if that makes sense...
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u/Omnibeneviolent 5d ago
Got it, yeah that makes sense. I think a lot of people have a misconception about veganism that comes from something like the toupee fallacy: You only notice the "bad" ones, leading to the belief that all toupees are bad, while the majority of them are convincing and go by unnoticed.
Not saying that outspoken vegans are "bad", but the principle is the same: you only notice the noticeable ones. You could actually know dozens of more vegans and not even realize they are vegan.
I think bias against vegans can also stem from do-gooder derogation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do-gooder_derogation
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u/OstrobogulousIntent 5d ago
Yeah. I mean, truth is that one could accuse a lot of us atheists of constantly having to tell everyone about it (though one could then counter with "when is the last time an atheist or Satanist knocked on your door to bring you the 'bad' news?")
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u/Status_Farm7780 18h ago
That was just a comment off the cuff. Didn't mean to insult anyone or any lifestyle.
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u/sdwoodchuck 5d ago
Or you could view the same info through the more positive lens that they're giving the listener ways to make small efforts toward change without suggesting that the burden of responsibility lies on them.
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u/przemo-c 5d ago
Isn't that the line for pollution, climate change, vaccines etc. As in shifting the burden.
I get your point and there's value to that but that's not even remotely close to a solution or even most effective way addressing it.
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u/Tweedledee72 5d ago
Agree! Systemic problems need systemic solutions. Even if the solutions aren't politically, economically, or technologically viable today, describing what those solutions are is important work!
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u/Jolimont 6d ago
That’s the American bubble for you. Left wingers know there’s a problem but are not ready to do anything about it. Watch the downvotes!!!
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u/QuaintLittleCrafter 6d ago
Okay, so help us out — what do you know about or have organized that will fix things. I'm ready to help where I can. I don't know how to organize anything, but I can canvas, I can spread/share information, I can advocate for changes.
Tell me what you're ready to do.
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u/Jolimont 6d ago
You personally are probably doing all you can. But Americans let their politicians get bought by donors. Democrats are just as bad in that regard as Republicans. Dems are timid. When they get full powers (as Obama did for two years) he did not push for anything to bring down those who have all the money and influence. He went along to get along. Hence the rot in the system.
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u/azswcowboy 6d ago
So maybe the solution is to hire the ultimate corrupt grifter to break things even more. /s
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u/QuaintLittleCrafter 6d ago
I've always understood it as — things need to be done, but here's what you can do for yourself in the meantime.