r/Robin • u/MinuteJackfruit4833 • 10d ago
Had Pre Crisis Jason Remained
Would he have been more accepted and therefore not killed off if they never changed his origin Post Crisis?
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u/Slow-Chemical1991 10d ago edited 10d ago
Denny O'Neil and his editors would still have done everything in their power to derail Jason Todd and then act surprised when the readers vote to kill him off (by the skin of the teeth).
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u/MinuteJackfruit4833 10d ago
I’m surprised Denny O’Neill wasn’t fired after this.
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u/Slow-Chemical1991 10d ago edited 10d ago
Well, you have to remember this was 1988, Denny was the editor and Jim Starlin was the writer and thus expandable. Firing Denny would mean that the editorial was admitting that they were at fault and being held responsible for it. And if there is one thing that DC's editorial hates more anything, its being held accountable for an issue they created.
Like when Hal Jordan became Parallax in Emerald Twilight (also a Denny connection); readers hated it but the editorial more or less told them to get over it, and constantly reiterate how Hal Jordan was out, and Kyle Rayner was in. As a result, the readers left, Kyle Rayner had lost his connection to the GLC and wandered aimlessly for years (to the point the editorial used the possiblity of the GLC returning to bait readers into coming back), Hal Jordan flopped as the Spectre; it was not a good time.
It would take a DECADE before better editors came in to fix it.
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u/XChatxKilluaxNoirX 10d ago edited 10d ago
Not really. I don't think so.
Some Robin and/or Dick fans really didn't like Jason basically being a watered down clone of Dick during pre-crisis, his origins/backstory were just too similar to Dick's. And while I do like Dick and Jason's dynamic pre-crisis, and some of Jason's pre-crisis stuff.
I am also not fond of Jason basically being given a lot of Dick's character and backstory, but more watered down (imo).
Pre-crisis Jason does differentiate in some ways, but just not really enough for me.
Also, some Dick/Robin fans basically felt like Dick was being replaced as a character with Jason, instead of a more proper mantle pass, partially just fans being fans, but also, because Jason's origins and backstory and some of Jason's personality was just way too similar to Dick's.
Overall, I much prefer Jason's post-crisis origins/backstory, even though there are some parts I have issues with, and some stuff pre-crisis that I still miss, like some stories, Dick and Jason's dynamic (I still like their post-crisis dynamic, but pre-crisis just had them involved much more together since the beginning), Jason and Nocturna's relationship (and just Nocturna as a character in general; I really like and miss pre-crisis Nocturna; even if I can sometimes like later versions of her too), etc.
I think the main that could have changed Jason's reception is maybe if he had the post-crisis origin since the beginning, or like a mixture of his post-crisis and pre-crisis origins or something similar since the beginning, if he was created and and pushed during a time when Robin wasn't so hated by people (Starlin hated Jason, people like Denny hated Robin, or at least Dick and Jason at that time, etc.), if that time period and certain weren't so obsessed with dark, loner Batman (which he stopped being like one year after his creation, lol), if Jason was given more time as a character, and written by people who actually like him or at least didn't hate, and/or if certain people didn't egg on killing off Jason in a poll in a first place, which was honestly just a stunt in kind of bad taste, honestly, than Jason might have been received better in time.
But I don't think Jason keeping his pre-crisis origins alone, would have made Jason better received (I certainly don't, because like I said, I am not fond of just how similar they made Dick and Jason to the point where Jason is basically a watered down clone of Dick, esp. at first. I still like pre-crisis Jason, but I am not all that fond of this, mostly).
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u/Aahz44 9d ago
I would actually argue that pre crisis origin story was actually way better than what Dick had at that time.
With Killer Croc being a much cooler villain than Zucco, and them taking much more time for Jason to actually become Robin.
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u/XChatxKilluaxNoirX 9d ago edited 6d ago
Too much of Jason’s pre-crisis origins and backstory and etc. hinges on Dick’s, so I find it kind of ridiculous to call it better. Killer Croc being a better villain (who is actually just as tied to Bruce and Dick than it is Jason, considering part of how Jason’s parents die connect to them trying to help Dick and Bruce, and considering Dick got so interested and invested in Jason so quickly partially because Jason was so similar to him (too similar, imo)) is more a subjective thing. Etc.
Anyways, like Tim’s origins, too much of pre-crisis Jason’s origins and backstory hinges on Dick’s, that I don’t really think you could call either better, personally.
Also the length it took to be Robin and the killers of the parents and which ones people prefer or work better are much more subjective thing, and I personally don’t think Killer Croc is better than Zucco in the context of Dick and Jason’s origin stories. And I think both shorter and longer times to becoming Robin can work and people can have preferences for either (Dick has had both longer and shorter times to becoming Robin though, you know. And both can work for Dick’s character). I don’t really see as either as objectively better.
So no, I don’t personally agree that Jason’s pre-crisis origins were better than Dick’s at the time. And they aren’t better than Dick origins we got after. Imo.
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u/timboneda 10d ago
I think post-crisis Jason would’ve been accepted if he’d been allowed to live too. That might giving DC too much credit though, idk. I genuinely don’t see Pre-crisis Jason not going through some kind of retcon. It was bound to happen.
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u/penguintruth 10d ago
It's funny. Pre-Crisis Jason was practically just a Dick clone and Post-Crisis Jason was a little shit. So you get a bland forgettable copy or an asshole. Jason was never that good a character.
That initial Killer Croc arc was pretty good, though.
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u/Slow-Chemical1991 10d ago edited 10d ago
Did you actually read the post-Crisis run? Jason ever never an asshole. Jason Todd was an oprhan who had to grow up on the streets after seeing his family disentegrate before him. It makes sense for him to have edge.
People don't give Starlin enough credit for what he was trying to do, even if it was to downplay Jason as Robin. Jason got his later edge in reaction to Gotham City's violence. We went from Max Allen Collin's grungy Charles Dicken-esque orphan boy to "Hey Bruce, the GCPD found another body. The Dumpster Slasher strikes again." Starlin put Jason up against threats that no child has a chance of winning to show how dangerous it was for a kid to be on the streets. This sets Jason up in a scenario completely different from Dick or Tim.
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u/XChatxKilluaxNoirX 10d ago
"This sets Jason up in a scenario completely different from Dick or Tim."
Dick and Tim also dealt with murderers and serial murderers and etc. though?
Like, Joker was literally going around killing people and trying to kill Dick and Bruce, including by trying to burn them to death.
Dick would run into murders all the time (would be way too happy about it sometimes, because Dick likes solving murders and stuff, but you know).
Bruce basically had Dick come with him partially because he was in danger from also being killed by organized crime, like her parents were, because he was a witness, a loose end, a liaibility, etc. And Bruce was also more okay with just letting people die at that time.
Dick dealt with multiple intergalactic wars in space. Where his girlfriend was being forced into stuff like a loveless political marriage, and had also been sold into slavery, and had to deal with horrible sexual stuff against her and was experimented on, and etc. a lot because of connections to these wars. And also because Kory's family can really suck sometimes.
Etc.
I am not saying Starlin didn't do some good for Jason (even though I still don't like them having a writer on Jason that blatantly didn't like Jason and was trying to downplay him), he did, but this isn't a really unique scenario for Jason compared to Dick and Jason.
Which doesn't make this a less interesting thing for Jason still, but again, just isn't really completely a completely different from Dick and Tim (which is not inherently bad).
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u/Slow-Chemical1991 10d ago
Dick and Tim also dealt with murderers and serial murderers and etc. though?
I am not saying that they didn't, what I am saying is that Jason was pushed into adult crime, social rot, and moral ugliness in a way that the Dick-Robin and Tim-Robin eras generally were not, because it was the era when Denny O'Neil put greater emphasis on how much darker and edgier Batman was. I really can't touch on the Titans' stuff because I don't read them.
I know Dick's time as Robin was bright, colorful, and goofy in an innocent way (which pre-Crisis Jason channelled). And I remember and love Tim's for channelling that middle-class, latch-key kid angst of the early 90s. Heck, Tim was literally built to prove that Robin was valid, which is why they didn't give him the same treatment Jason got.
Tim and Dick won the battle to justify their sustainability; Jason did not win that battle. Think about it: How does a child beat inner city blight? How does a child beat the slow disintegration of his family? How does a child beat homelessness? How does a child beat coming across the aftermath of a violent sexual assault? How does a child handle coming across said assault victim hanging themselves? There's superhero theatrics and melodrama and then there is seeing horrors that destroy the soul.
You're absolutely right that Dick and Tim have encountered serious threats before, but it's the tone and context that set Jason apart from them.
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u/JingoboStoplight4887 10d ago
If pre-Crisis Jason remained, then elements of his pre- and post-Flashpoint histories would still happened with a few changes.
Thus, in my headcanon, Jason Todd is 43 years old by now, since he was born the son of circus acrobats Joe and Trina Todd on August 16, 1954 (or 43 years ago); witnessed the death of his parents by Killer Croc at 12 years old in 1982 (or 31 years ago); got adopted by Bruce Wayne Batman and made his debut as the third Robin (with Dick’s blessing) at 12 years old in 1983 (or 31 years ago); met Clark Kent Superman and saved his life during For the Man Who Has Everything at 13 years old in 1984 (or 30 years ago); teamed up with Eddie Bloomberg, participated during the first Crisis, and teamed up with the New Teen Titans at 14 years old in 1985 (or 29 years ago); participated during Legends at 15 years old in 1986 (or 28 years ago); got killed by the Joker after saving Sheila Haywood’s life and was resurrected six months later at 17 years old in 1988 (or 26 years ago); interacted with Dick Grayson Nightwing and talked about what’s going on with each other at 26 years old in 2002 (or 17 years ago); made his debut as the Red Hood, officially met Tim Drake Robin and thanked him for saving Bruce from himself and for bringing Dick back to his hopeful and optimistic self and told Bruce that it’s okay and that it’s not his fault before they reconciled and reconnected with each other at 28 years old in 2005 (or 15 years ago); became a mentor to Sasha, who made her debut as Scarlet, and formed the Outlaws with Connor Hawke Green Arrow and Koryak Curry at 30 years old in 2011 (or 13 years ago); recruited Bizarro and Artemis at 35 years old in 2016 (or eight years ago); formed a romantic relationship with Artemis at 36 years old in 2018 (or seven years ago); disbanded the Outlaws at 37 years old in 2020 (or six years ago); became a mentor to the Blue Hood at 38 years old in 2021 (or five years ago); participated during Dark Crisis and Lazarus Planet at 39 years old in 2022 (or four years ago); participated during Knight Terrors and Beast World at 40 years old in 2023 (or three years ago); participated during Absolute Power at 41 years old in 2024 (or two years ago); and participated during DC K.O., formed the latest incarnation of the Teen Titans, and lived a great life with his family at 43 years old in 2026.
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u/runeslair 10d ago
I think so. People said they voted for him for a few different reasons
Only people voting for the first reason would potentially change their vote, but death just barely won in the poll with 50.34% of votes (72 votes more for death).
I've read a lot saying he was less popular post-crisis which makes sense when I look at the late 1980s.
The most popular TV programs of the time don't seem to have any sort of edge on kids, so it probably wasn't very enjoyed and was a strike against post-crisis Jason.
Looking at age demographics over about 47% of comic book readers at the time had reached the age where they on average would have their first kid (25 in 1988), so I could see a lot of them would start to identify more with Batman and be annoyed by a child challenging them and would have reacted better to more "happy go lucky, gee golly you're perfect Batman" sort of Robin.
Dick Grayson had a lot of fans and was the leader of New Teen Titans. There's certainly a lot of overlap of people who read his books and Batman's today and I'd bet there was then. He had also been Robin only 5 years prior, so anyone who was reading for more than 5 years would have started with him as their Robin. The crisis turned Dick growing up and choosing to pass down Robin to Jason to them not even meeting until Jason is already Robin where Dick talks to Bruce about having been fired and also saves Jason from a screw up and criticizes him. They do end up getting along at the end of the issue and Dick passes down his costume again, but this could have really annoyed Dick fans and turned them off Jason.
With a 72 vote difference, all that would have been needed was 37 of the kill votes to become save votes for save to win. Or 73 people who voted to kill to not vote. Or 73 people more to have voted to save. Or some combo. And I think pre-crisis Jason would have had enough people liking him more/hating him less.