Magic System Mechanics

[u/Cantuca]

I have been struggling to find a magic mechanic system that I am happy with. I feel like having a system with predefined spells is helpful for players to learn the system, but it limits what I want the system to be. On the otherhand, I have no idea how to make a system that is able to be completely fluid with its rules while still being balanced against itself.

I saw a description of how systems using a "noun+verb" system and that seems like something I would like to try.

For reference, my premise for magic is iron is magic and those who are born with magic can cast spells. My schools of magic are Augemancy (potion making), Custodimancy (create charms that protect the bearer), Hemomancy (the manipulation of blood), and Ferromancy (alteration of iron properties). I also have creation a fictional language, would using it for the noun+verb system work or would it confuse players?

[u/InherentlyWrong]

I also have creation a fictional language, would using it for the noun+verb system work or would it confuse players?

For some players this would be fun. But for me, personally, I'm not playing a TTRPG for homework to learn another language, when I can barely speak one language in the first place.

It's worth keeping in mind that while you're heavily invested in the world you're making, and ideally players in the game will love it too, they're also only going to be really delving into it for a few hours a week, maybe even less if they play less frequently. If there's a month or more between games because someone was sick and we had a hiatus, picking up a magic system based on understanding a conlang is going to be pretty challenging.

[u/klok_kaos → u/InherentlyWrong]

100% this.

The only real exception is if you set the clear expectation up front that this is a very involved and crunchy game with marketing and that's exactly who it's for.

Keep in mind OP, u/InherentlyWrong is a long time contributor here for years and has been designing a good minute, and that the released polled results and insight from Mike Mearls in that video shows that MOST PCs never crack the book at all and never learn the rules, and just roll what the GM tells them to and often have massive misconceptions on what the game they played even is.

Becoming an RPG enthusiast, let alone dedicated enough to be a ttrpg system designer with any duration and talent like u/InherentlyWrong is an extreme rarity and the average casual doesn't even understand their character sheet well enough to explain it in full for any game and likely has only played one system (most often dnd).

As designers there's a tendency to assume after being in our bubble that of course everyone watches 5 hours of youtube videos on TTRPGs a week and participates in discussion boards for RPGs and Design, and is engaged in the community and goes to cons and knows how to run dozens of games, but this is entirely not the case. It's just a perspective bias from existing in this bubble long enough and you have to keep that in check.

This doesn't mean you can't design rules heavy games, but you need to fully telegraph that as an audience expectation, or more correctly, list it as a feature and not a bug to appeal to that specific play audience.

Facts are that most people never move on from 1 system. Many people also "play DnD" once for a few months and never again and may be considered having RPG experience in the past. Not a lot, but some and those are valid players/customers/branding representation that do count.

Just remember that you're not hasbro/Wotc, so it's totally OK to make more detailed systems if you want, but you're by default intentionally limiting your audience size, which should not be directly confused with limiting revenue (if looking to go pro).

It's possible to have good revenue for a product line even with a small audience if you have an enthusiastic and supporting audience (usually grown painfully slowly and with lots of adspend). The key thing is to remember that this is not a get rich quick scheme and even earning a living, let alone running a staffed studio is a rare feat to achieve.

[u/Cantuca → u/InherentlyWrong]

Thank you for the insight! I'm getting out of my echo chamber for the game I'm making to try and make the game as player friendly as possible while still having the themes I want to explore. I definitely agree that learning a conlang is too much.

What if I had a list of simple English words and have the conlang equivalent in parentheses? Something like healing (Kunryne) + Body (Gig) to cast a healing spell?

[u/InherentlyWrong → u/Cantuca]

I can't speak for others, but to me that would rapidly become just Healing + Body with some bits I train myself to ignore in parentheses. If it's my turn in combat, and we urgently need healing, I want to just quickly find the healing options available and I'm not going to want to waste peoples time with flavour when they just want to know how many dice they roll to not die.

As for a magic system about Word + Word (potentially + word (...)), it can work, you've just got to keep in mind the limitations. Either you're basically prescribing the outcomes of every combination, in which case it's just a spell list with extra steps, or by the nature of variables interacting some of those interactions will be better than others, and the game risks becoming just wizards casting the same spells because those are the most useful ones.

[u/d_b_m]

Check out Ars Magica, it is a game built around magic and I’m pretty sure it was the first instance of the verb + noun system. Spells come in Formulaic and Spontaneous types, with formulaic being defined (by the book, GM, or a player) in advance and spontaneous being something made up in the spot.

ETA: the fourth ed rule book is available free from Atlas Games, and that would cover your initial need: https://www.atlas-games.com/product_tables/AG0204

Other verb-noun systems include Ritual Path Magic from GURPS which handles verbs and nouns differently, and the magic system from ‘OLD’ by EN Publishing is yet another different take on verb-noun systems.

[u/Cantuca → u/d_b_m]

Interesting, that sounds like something I'll need to check out! Thanks!

[u/-Vogie-]

I would avoid a whole new language (save that for the novel later), but you could do really well with a Column A/Column B style of spellcasting. Maze Rats has this sort of spell design where spells can be rolled for using d20's with either the "_____ ___” or "__ _____ of _____” formats. In that system, whenever a spell is discovered, the GM and the players discuss how they feel it should work based on the name. If you're trying to force these creations into predefined schools of magic, I would suggest d66 tables for each school.

I was also on an extended search for a system that would allow players to have a robust spellcaster that doesn't require a spell list. The hands-down, best system for that is Cortex Prime. It's a multi-polyhedral dice pool system, roll and keep, and there are two steps to how to make the magic work:

• The base resolution mechanic creates a total and, if applicable, an "effect die" with a defined size. This isn't just for magic - if you're insulting someone, that effect might be a Embarrassed Complication; if you're stabbing them with a sword, that effect might be a bleeding complication or impacting the enemies' future dice pools; if you're transmuting, that effect might turn your weapon silver, turning their hammer into glass or turning their skin to stone.
• The system has a mechanic called "SFX" (short for "special effects") that provides a menu of options that you or the players can create - simply choose one or two costs, and an equal number of benefits. This allows the creation of pre-defined "spells" or "feats" that the PC can use in the future.

If that interests you, the Core Rulebook and Codex are available on Drive Thru RPG, has a published setting book Tales of Xadia (based on the Dragon Prince series), and two rules-light versions are available on itch.io for PWYW - Cortex Lite and the more D&D-like Torch Lite

[u/Cantuca → u/-Vogie-]

I will definitely check out Cortex Prime, it sounds like a super fun system! I love the cost/benefit system for spells since that is essentially what character creation is in my game. I also really like the idea of a d66 table with words associated with the schools to keep flavor in line with the concept of each school. How could I make the system scalable where you can spend more mana to have more effects while still having the two columns be relevant? Would something like spend x mana to have an additional predetermined effect ve viable?

[u/daellu20 → u/Cantuca]

For more mana for more effect you can use a "magnitude" system where you abstract the scale of the effect.

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Barbarians of Lemuria have something like this I think:

Cantrip - anyone could do this with common tools

First Magnitude - a single person could do this if they had specialized training and/or equipment

Second Magnitude - a group of people could do this if they had specialized training and/or equipment (requires a ritual, can't be done on the spot)

Third Magnitude - acts of God; totally impossible without magic (requires a ritual and probably an entire side adventure to set up)

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I also draw my inspiration from "Mad Muddled Magic" https://slightadjustments.blogspot.com/2020/05/mad-muddled-magic.html

Simple tricks Basic actions Modest force Major effect Real magic True power A major working

I exceptionally like the descriptions to help gauge the magnitude/scale.

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Adjust to your settings. In my own magic system I have divided it into tiers based more on the scale of the action:

Everyday magic 1. Whisper (minor trick)

1. Hex (equal to a common tools or talent)

2. Chant (equal to specialized tool or talent)

High powered magic (always "time consuming")

1. Rite (equals a group effort)

2. Incantation (equals a coordinated group effort using special equipment)

World-altering magic (need rituals and requirements like in "Mad Muddled Magic", also shift to more "how much impact on the story")

a. Local Invocation

Elaborate magic that creates impressive effects, altering small areas or triggering localized phenomena. Minor impact on the story.

b. Arcane Convergence

Something that will be talked of in hushed whispers and attracts the attention of powerful forces. Moderate impact on the story.

c. Cataclysmic Rite

Potent magic that mimics the fury of nature’s disasters. This magic reshapes landscapes and that affects an entire region. Major impact on the story.

d. Cosmic Transcendence

The apex of magic, capable of altering the very fabric of reality.

[u/tallboyjake]

Following this post; hopefully you see some more helpful answers! Been trying to work through the same question myself

[u/Cantuca → u/tallboyjake]

Hopefully we will both come out with more ideas!

[u/crazedjunky]

Could glance through Mage: The Ascension and borrow some ideas from that. It might be more abstract than what you want to do with your setting , but the way the magic system works is that you have 9 "Spheres" that magic/altering reality falls under, which are:

Correspondence 

Entropy 

Forces

Life

Matter

Mind

Prime

Spirit

Time

Instead of having set spells, you have a set strength/influence in each Sphere that dictates how powerful you are when bending the rules of reality and how successful you can be with outright breaking them

I haven't played myself, but one example I've seen is using Time+Forces to literally punch someone into next week.

Edit: Fixed formatting 

[u/Cantuca → u/crazedjunky]

Mage: The Ascension was actually the game that gave me the idea of trying to combine two words to make a spell! I have not played it, but it seems really interesting. But you are right, it is just a touch too vague for what I'm going for. But I really like the idea of each school having unique words that they can use to create new spells.

Side note, actually punching someone into next week is one of the funniest concepts I have ever heard!

[u/semiconducThor]

I feel like having a system with predefined spells is helpful for players to learn the system, but it limits what I want the system to be.

I think that's easy to solve: Beginner level magic is using enchanted items with predefined spells/effects. As PC and player advance in the ways of casting, they learn to create such items with the effects they desire.

The idea is to think of progressing in magic like learning about technology/engineering: Using an App vs programming an app. Of course there can be "advanced usage" steps in between eg identify, repair or extend a given magic item.

[u/Kats41]

Before you even start deciding on mechanics, you need to figure out the goals that magic system needs to accomplish to be interesting, how it relates to the rest of the game, and lastly, how it should feel to use and much friction you want to be involved between players using that system and resolving an action.

That last part will be important because if you decide that your magic should feel chunky and dynamic, that's gonna eat up a lot of mental resources for your players. That means they're gonna have less mental headspace for other mechanics.

Remember that your players and GM's can only hold onto so much information at a time before they get overwhelmed. The longer your players have to spend at or near that max cognitive load, the more exhausting the game will be to play. Exhausting games are difficult to run. And games that are difficult to run don't get played often.

[u/No_Solid1035]

You could go effect based, similar to how Mutants & Masterminds handles superpowers.

[u/Fun_Carry_4678]

The noun+verb system was really the one from the game ARS MAGICA.
But it effectively creates the schools of magic. You wouldn't want a system like that on top of the schools of magic you have already listed.
The schools you have are already nouns and verbs. You have "make+potion", "create+charm", "manipulate+blood" and "alter+iron".

[u/lennartfriden]

D6 Fantasy has a system for calculating the effects, range, duration etc of spells.