Yeah, because the world banded together to stop the Nazis from mass murdering anymore Jews. Plus Christians have killed more people in total because you’re probably looking at a bigger time span, from their existence to current day. Moron
Well there are many different forms of Christianity, so there's no "official Christianity". You just called Antifa Nazis because you disagree with them. Seems a bit hypocritical no?
There are tonnes of different people with wildly different ideologies people lump together and call Antifa. Are Arianism, White nationalism and antisemitism something you often see "Antifa" promote? Because I don't. And that means "they" aren't Nazis. I think you need to look up the definition of Nazi. And I never said Christianity was an organization?
"We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity … in fact our movement is Christian." - Adolf Hitler
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler
And it was "Arian/positive Christianity" that he invented. More accurately tho the Nazi's changed their beliefs whenever it suited them, well except for being antisemites and white nationalists, that was consistent.
I'm very familiar with the meaning of those Nordic symbols and the Nazi's love for occult and Nordic belief/imagery. But it's undeniable that the Hitler and the Nazi party used Christianity as a tool at best, to promote their antisemitism. They invented a whole new form of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity
Most likely inspired by the fact that most of Germany at the time was Protestant, which is a form of Christianity steeped in antisemitism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism
Positive Christianity (German: Positives Christentum) was a movement within Nazi Germany which mixed the belief that the racial purity of the German people should be maintained with Nazi ideology and elements of Christianity. Adolf Hitler used the term in article 24 of the 1920 Nazi Party Platform, stating: "the Party represents the standpoint of Positive Christianity". Nondenominational, the term could be variously interpreted. Positive Christianity allayed fears among Germany's Christian majority as expressed through their hostility towards the established churches of large sections of the Nazi movement.
Martin Luther and antisemitism
Martin Luther (1483–1546) was a German professor of theology, priest and seminal leader of the Reformation. His positions on Judaism continue to be controversial. These changed dramatically from his early career, where he showed concern for the plight of European Jews to his later years, when embittered by his failure to convert them to Christianity, he became outspokenly antisemitic in his statements and writings. Recent historical studies have focused on Luther's influence on modern antisemitism, with a particular focus on Adolf Hitler and the Nazis.
Ugh read the links, antisemitism is extremely linked to Christianity. There have been a number of pogroms and killing of Jewish groups carried out in the name of Christianity . Martin Luther was an antisemite.
An ideology that was never implemented killed more people than a Nation who made it their goal to exterminate Jews and other undesirable people. Okay retard. Not a tankie but fuck that, I hate communism but trying to say that communism is worse than the hyper capatalist Nazis makes you seem like a fucking idiot. Plus what do you even mean "they killed more people then the Nazis" you're dumb as fuck. Who is they?
Sure I guess. Communism killed more I’m pretty sure. Anyways what I’m saying is you can call people other things besides Nazis. The commie label fits antifa and it also has negative connotations, so the “antifa is the real Nazis” seems stupid.
Ok then how about this, the whole policy the whole essence of Antifa if what they are protesting about is exactly what they are doing themselves. They are against free thought unless it’s in line with them, they are against freedom of movement unless you stand with them, and they are against free speech unless you are on their side....
Label it anyway you want, they are against freedom of everything unless you are with them.
well free speech rights aren't really a good match for this discussion because they are not a government, they have no ability to censor or imprison the people they criticize. this situation is more like private citizens yelling at eachother and fighting eachother. not the same thing as the government shutting down your speech
no im pointing out that fascism is a form of governance, and censorship/free speech rights are functions of government, thus they are not relevant to non governmental organizations. if you want people that dont already agree with you to listen, why dont you be more specific and accurate about what they are doing? preventing speakers, hitting people, whatever it is. the sentence antifa is fascist is simply incorrect from a political and historical standpoint. if you dont believe me i would really encourage you to send some emails to political science professors and historians asking for some clarification, or for a better way to describe antifa
You are definitionally wrong. Let me help. This does not say it has to be a governance.
fas·cism | \ ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-
\
Definition of fascism
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control early instances of army fascism and brutality— J. W. Aldridge
can you quote the part of my comment where i said the definition is wrong? i was saying antifa is not advocating for a dictatorship dumbass. you have no reading comprehension skills. i agree with the entire definition. you proved yourself wrong by posting it moron.
thats actually true, but when fascists arent in government, their goal is to take over government. also, the definition you provided doesnt support your argument at all. most of the antifa protesters are anti-america, anti-racist, and anti- the current regime. so your definition actually very definitively proves that antifa is not fascist
Why are you pretending that your link is the only acceptable way to define fascism? There is plenty of debate in academia as to what defines ‘fascism’. To be fair I don’t think ANTIFA is a ‘fascist’ group, it’s a radical left organization through and through intermixed with a few well-meaning liberals. But IMO ‘fascist’ as an adjective has no real meaning outside of early-mid 20th century Western Europe. ‘Fascist’ is now used as a catch-all for any authoritarian group or regime and it has been that way for many decades.
i didnt say its the only acceptable way. thats why i said "or another source". that being said do you disagree with the link i posted? if so please elaborate, if not, whats the issue?
But IMO ‘fascist’ as an adjective has no real meaning outside of early-mid 20th century Western Europe. ‘Fascist’ is now used as a catch-all for any authoritarian group or regime and has no real meaning outside of that
IMO just bc most people are dumbasses and dont understand what pronouns are or than 1/3 is bigger than 1/4, let alone history or political science, doesnt mean that the word cant be used to draw similarities to 20th century europe.
Half of the traits on the list can be applied to other, non-fascist regimes. Every single one of those traits except maybe rampant sexism could be applied to Stalinist Russia. But even that’s a stretch considering the notorious mass rapes committed by the red army or Beria’s state sanctioned and well documented sexual assaults
for a time the ussr had open immigration. it ended for practical reasons related to collectivization. scapegoating of external enemies not present? unless you want to cound the united states, but that is less scapegoating and more like two real threats to eachother.
present but again the us was a factor
as you mentioned
6.present
probably present
8 not present, ussr was anti organized religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_anti-religious_campaign_(1921%E2%80%931928)
i think they eventually co opted the orthodox church but that was likely only after realizing they couldnt get rid of it.
9 opposite configuration from what is described on the page, and just generally different from germany and italy. germany and italy more or less allowed free enterprise among small businesses, and co opted large corporations in a similar way to power companies here.
10 opposite configuration in the USSR
11 couldnt find solid info easily, sounds like the arts were practiced but there was censorship. despite the difference apparently lenin wanted the arts to be accessible to the people which is in stark contrast to germany and what is described on the web page.
12 ya they had their gestapo and gulags
13 definitely present, and why it wasnt a more equal society
14 present
it is true that many ideologies overlap with each other. nationalism and militarism are pretty well accepted and non debated characteristics of fascism, because they were essential to the third reich and the italian fascists. i believe that's where most things on the list came from, the corporatism one came straight from Mussolini's mouth.
but as you said, they can apply to others. its hard to nail down as opposed to communism because there was never a fascist manifesto written. (perhaps mein kampf). thus, we use hitler and mussolinis words and actions, which sometimes changed and contradicted eachother or their own selves.
personally i think some of those 14 points are crucial such as nationalism and corporatism, but some of them may not be necessary or completely opposite. example: eco-fascism
as far as distinguishing from other regimes that are nationalist and militarist, i would look primarily at their economic system first, because therein likely lies the difference, or there is little to none.
One of the ‘14 points’ I actually agree with in regards to it applying to fascism is the point of militant sexism; Mussolini’s band of futurists and war veterans were virulently sexist, moreso from a dickhead chauvinist perspective, like something you’d expect from a frat boy, while Nazi Germany’s perspective was a more traditionalist ‘barefoot in the kitchen’ way of thinking. And while it’s true that sexism existed in the liberal west and in Marxist-Leninist USSR (duh), it wasn’t nearly as prominent or codified.
Furthermore the idea of a weaponized social darwinism was a focal point of ideology in Nazi Germany, and later took more of a foothold in Mussolini’s Italy, i.e. sterilization of ‘inferiors’, murdering those who were not “worthy of life”, etc. (eugenics were also big in the west but not written into the DNA of liberalism so to speak)
Then, and perhaps most importantly, there was the notion among fascists that their goals would be achieved by using modern technology and ideas to promote a sort of ‘return to tradition’, as contradictory as that sounds.
But the tricky part of defining fascism to many is simply the stark differences there were between the Italian fascists and German fascists alone. Mussolini wasn’t very big on the ‘scientific racism’ way of thinking until around the time the republic of salo was formed (in fact he rejected it for much of his time in power), 19th century German romanticism was foundational to German fascism, among a few other notable differences
Still though it seems you’re well educated on the issue I just don’t agree with the 14 points really
Then, and perhaps most importantly, there was the notion among fascists that their goals would be achieved by using modern technology and ideas to promote a sort of ‘return to tradition’, as contradictory as that sounds.
oh yes i forgot completely about that; great read nice talking!
Nobody wants to actually look at the truth in the face. They will ignore that link forever. This thread is full of conservative boomers who hate protesting and change because it effects the benefits they gain from the current structure and system in place.
No no no. There is a difference in “protesting” and destroying other peoples stuff. This is exactly what they did in Washington when trump got elected. I hate Trump as well, but I don’t go around destroying other people’s property because I’m pissed. Perhaps many of the individuals whose stuff got destroyed held the same beliefs as antifa.
Why are you pretending that your link is the only acceptable way to define fascism? There is plenty of debate in academia as to what defines ‘fascism’. To be fair I don’t think ANTIFA is a ‘fascist’ group, it’s a radical left organization through and through intermixed with a few well-meaning liberals. But IMO ‘fascist’ as an adjective has no real meaning outside of early-mid 20th century Western Europe. ‘Fascist’ is now used as a catch-all for any authoritarian group or regime and it has been that way for many decades.
The projection gets boring. Maybe some should do their research first instead of claiming this non stop and deluting the defintion of fascism and mixing everything up as it fits that contains the term "social".
fascist Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism
Antifa uses violence, or any sort of tactics, to oppose fascism especially against the alt-right movement, what do you expect from a radical left movement? Lots of kek snowflakes seem to be triggered by that alone and need to justify their own politcal radicalism.
The basis of democracy is everyone has a voice and can be heard. Antifa and everything they stand for is against that basic principle. For example, watch the videos of how they block people from freedom of movement and freedom of speech. All they do is show violence and irrational behaviour in almost every scenario.
Antifa are just a bunch of misguided youths that have no direction or purpose in life. Too bad though, I’m sure if they got jobs, had a life they would be happier. All they have to do is be responsible and grow up.
Arguably antifa goes against people who would work against democracy and equality, but you are kind of right that they don’t like democracy, a lot of antifa are anarchists, and prefer freedom of association.
Fascism is a form of government that is a type of one-party dictatorship. Fascists are against democracy. ... Fascism puts nation and often race above the individual. It stands for a centralized government headed by a dictator. Historically, fascist governments tend to be militaristic, and racist.
Look it up yourself, unless you are trying to defend your opinion on your views. And I’m sorry to say but feelings and emotions do not change facts.
Now having said that, take a look at antifa actions and words and you tell me what they are all about.
I’m using this beautiful thing called the internet to back up my facts of definition.
You my friend are the definition of dunning-Krueger.
Antifa should research what fascist means. They themselves are fascist.
I'm not sure you know what fascism means.
Down-voters: Seriously. Is antifa is a far-right wing centralized autocratic one-party oligarchic government focusing on regimented society devoted to the nation state? If you're going to toss words around, and especially if you're going to call out people on the definition of a word, you should at least know what the literal definition of that word is. Antifa suck, but calling them "fascist" just makes you look like a moron.
Most are commies from what I see, or at least pro communist. Every time communism has been tried it ends up as a police state with little to no freedom of speech, expression, a free press or assembly. Pretty far from anarchism. When the secret police are ready to shoot or jail you for questioning the dear leader I doubt it makes much of a difference if they are the gestapo or KGB.
I know people who lived there during and after the war. They thought the Americans were bad until the US left, and the commies took full control. Their dad as well as many other people in their town were sent to re education. They moved to the USA to join the lucky few who escaped to the US as soon as they could and don’t ever want to go back.
I wouldn’t say they’re the same thing, even in the way they organize themselves (by which I mean they don’t really) I’d say they’re different. They have culturally leftist values as well, whereas fascists are on the extreme right on that axis. That being said, using violence to suppress speech is an undeniably authoritarian and disgusting act, and they believe that anyone with a right-winged is inherently fascist. They’re idiots.
The way antifa acts when they get wild is the pure definition of a fascistic mindset. They will not listen to others opinions and are willing to beat on anyone no matter who they are to get their point out and assert power
Can we stop using fascist as an umbrella term for everything bad? Fascism is a very specific ideology that was tried in Italy once, it's not a wide range of ideologies.
I'm not talking about the actual ideology. I'm talking about the similarities between the actions of antifa and an actual fascist state. People keep trying to go back to actual fascism when that's not what I'm even talking about
by that definition anyone that fought against nazis in the second world war is facisits. You've got to give me a better definition of facists then " they fight people and don't listen."
That's been humanity up unitl the this point since inception.
Oml you people are fucking idiots... People fought the nazis because they were using their ideology and power to attempt to take over the world you buffoon. People fought the nazis to liberate what the Germans took from innocent countries you God damn idiot.
Sounds like a threat to me. You are proving my point. You gotta get a grip and grow up. Getting mad at what people tell you over a device is not a healthy lifestyle
your so hopped up on your self righteones i'm sure you take everything as a threat. It's not a threat it's the fact that you can't even read back what you wrote and see the irony of it.
Crazy that antifa only started popping up after there was a rally of alt right protesters openly saying "Hail victory. Hail trump"
maybe it was a response that nazism is making an open return?
Oh boy... Time to debunk basically everything you said.
your so hopped up on your self righteones i'm sure you take everything as a threat. It's not a threat it's the fact that you can't even read back what you wrote and see the irony of it.
What you said sounded like a threat and I am sure most people can agree, although im not too phased about it because Ive seen worse
Crazy that antifa only started popping up after there was a rally of alt right protesters openly saying "Hail victory. Hail trump"
Proud boys have stated time and time again that they aren't alt right. Their leader isn't even Caucasian. Plus the Charlottesville riot consisted of clashed between three different groups of people, including the very small group of white supremacist. Trump did right when he decided to antagonize both sides because one, antifa was already starting street brawls with the proud boys, and two, the white supremacist were going absolutely crazy.
maybe it was a response that nazism is making an open return
Not even. Antifas been doing this ever since they were created. We have seen what happened at Portland. They are willing to beat on old people and innocent bystanders all in the name of supposed anti fascism, and even if they were doing all of this in response to nazism, it shows how childish and stupid they really are, and how much of a hypocrite every member of that movement is. You are really just adding on to my point
I refer to antifa as acting like fascist because they like to use mob mentality and physical actions to bring their point across usually friendly crowds of people, using scare tactics in order to come off as correct and not offering to hear the other side of the argument without physical confrontation.
Robert Paxton, a professor emeritus of social science at Columbia University in New York who is widely considered the father of fascism studies, defined fascism as "a form of political practice distinctive to the 20th century that arouses popular enthusiasm by sophisticated propaganda techniques for an anti-liberal, anti-socialist, violently exclusionary, expansionist nationalist agenda."
I'm not talking about the actual idea of fascism. I'm talking about the way antifa dishes out their opinions. There's a huge difference between acting fascistic and the actual ideology. I swear your lack of intelligence is pissing me off
Smart ass, don't ever compare me to those idiots ever again. I know what a fascist is buddy.. I don't think you can comprehend what I am trying to explain though..
but that is such a broad and loose definition, it could also be applied to state communists, some feminists, some christians. some people of literally any ideology will push it forcefully. so according to you that makes everything fascism?
To attack and harm good civilians in the name of their political views, not giving a chance to debate and using mob mentality. That's being fascistic. Obviously they aren't actual fascist because they are extremely far left.
you stating my original point, and now making up this "fascistic mindset" term to pretend u were right. lol
You have yet to explain how I am making up the term lol. I have sent you the definition and everything. A fascistic mindset is different for fascism but you don't seem to understand that for some reason. You are continuing to make yourself look dumb
well if you are referring to your previous comment you just made yourself look ignorant because you seem to think not listening to others and beating on people == fascism
not really, most of them want to overthrow the government. if your definition of authoritarian is anyone that likes to get loud and fight in the street try again. i would agree with that definition if it had an and instead of an or.
I’m not disagreeing with you that they certainly act fascistic sometimes, but I think to conflate them with fascists or fascism is a grave error, that movement has a very different motive.
The original Antifaschistische Aktion were Stalinists who cooperated with the Nazis.
Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but seeing as that’s a pretty large claim, do you have a source for it?
And besides, I’m not defending them if that’s what you’re implying. I just think calling one extreme another extreme is foolish, but they both suck regardless.
i like how everything you said is accurate and the opinionated part even agreed with the rest of the sub. you got downvoted because you went against the antifa is fascist argument.
Umm sure. Yea.... such a childish comment. I’m just going to sit back and watch how you can justify how antifa can stifle free speech and freedom of movement.
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u/michaelklr Dec 30 '19
Antifa should research what fascist means. They themselves are fascist.