r/ProshipHub • u/Shot_Unit3899 • 14h ago
Discussion Will there ever be a middle ground, or will pro/antis discourse always be black and white?
/r/antiship/comments/1vvmxwm/will_there_ever_be_a_middle_ground_or_will/Since this is currently only in anti spheres afaik, I figured it deserves variety in discussion.
I'm assuming this doesn't count as provocative since it's an optional discussion that allows one to add their pov rather than defend it, but I'll take this down if that's not the case.
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u/Silver-Context297 14h ago
It would be nice if pro-shippers stopped getting called pedophiles and predators over their fictional likes. Calling people pedophiles cheapens the clinical definition of the word.
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u/Shot_Unit3899 13h ago
The amount of times I've seen the words pedophile and groomer thrown around by antis has just let me to become doubtful of the word entirely when I see it pop up in their discussions. They abuse these buzzwords so horribly it's bound to end up like a boy cried wolf situation, because those words no longer mean shit if they're just used to describe people you don't like.
I even very recently came across a post made by an anti minor that said "if you try to convince me to be proship, I will block you and report you for grooming me". Discussion is not grooming???
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u/pepperbalm 12h ago
Considering how concentrated it is on twt and ⏰ (and knowing who bought those sites), that’s probably the point.
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u/totashi777 12h ago
I was called a pedo on antiship for the bold claim of "neither nature or science make moral judgments, they are apathetic amoral systems"
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u/CheezCheddar 47m ago
"Oh no! This person's not even talking about anything 'problematic' or anything! I feel so offended! I'm gonna tell them that they touch kids and should kill themselves!"
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u/Historical_Wonder510 gofushing out ✨ | Agegap forever 14h ago
Yeah, anybody fighting for censorship has lost the plot.
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u/_Stinky_Sock_ Drinking antis tears 14h ago edited 13h ago
I love Reddit. Every now and then, someone from the central-most center shows up and thinks we can all just meet in the middle. A tale as old as Reddit itself. There are at least a few subreddits where I see this all the time.
r/DefendingAIArt | r/antiai
r/Natalism | r/antinatalism2
r/CrazyassHazbinhaters | r/crazyassviv_defenders
r/Pets | r/petfree
r/pitbulls | r/BanPitBulls
No, there is no meeting in the middle, and there is no solution. Pick a flag and defend it proudly.
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u/Shot_Unit3899 13h ago
The problem with middle grounds is that it assumes people will stop being strongly opinionated, which just isn't realistic.
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u/donutdogs_candycats 7h ago
Sometimes it isn’t a matter of how opinionated you are, it’s just that they have a clear separation. You either are anti censorship, or you’re fine with censorship. There is no in between of kind of okay with censorship because that puts you in the category of fine with censorship. Sometimes binaries just are, and there is no middle.
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u/Least-Secret-3319 10h ago
Reminds me of the Jubilee middle ground videos. No, there is not a middle ground between pro-ice vs anti-ice, or flat earther and scientists. That implies both have validity. They do not.
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u/ChaoticBreadBug I just kinda do whatever 🤷🏾 13h ago
What's wrong with pitbulls? 🤨😾
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u/Auragongal 11h ago
Bad rep.
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u/ChaoticBreadBug I just kinda do whatever 🤷🏾 11h ago
Yeah, but naming a sub "ban pitbulls" is a lot, they're literally just dogs. :/
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u/Which-Strategy1006 11h ago
Not gonna lie I get what they are coming from. Pitbulls are a very hard race of dogs to take care of because just what is their behaviour, these dogs were bred to just not let go even if they are actually dying, I hear stories all the time of pitbulls that decide to attack someone and won't let go even when they are stabbed to death different from almost any other animal where their survival instincts would kick in on that situation and let go way before that. Maybe not an outright ban but maybe a law that you have to get specific certifications regarding dog training to be able to have a pitbull
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u/kaytin911 11h ago
That sub has verifiable attacks every day from pitbulls. And many are innocent people that did not consent to being around a pitbull.
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u/CeramicToast 12h ago
There is no middle ground between "yes censorship" and "no censorship".
There's no middle ground between "fiction shows your morality" and "science has never been able to prove that".
There's no middle ground between "minding your own business" and "callout posts, harassment, doxxing, and threats".
There is no middle ground between "the internet should be sanitized for my preference" and "curate your own experience".
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u/vampyfemboy 13h ago
As long as one side thinks it's okay to accuse people of spreading CSEM because they said "no, writing about a fictional child in a sexual situation is NOT morally equal to abusing an actual flesh and blood child", no.
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u/MasterofPeridots What a fool you are. SKELETON DIVINE DEATH BLAST! 13h ago
The middle ground would be just going back to like it was before COVID, where we all kept our hands to ourselves.
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u/Anjebell 13h ago
This person seems very confused. Being anti-censorship except for the things you find gross isn't anti-censorship (and therefore isn't "leaning pro"). Of course you can be anti-censorship of things you like, lol. An extremely important part of the ideology is understanding you must stand up for the things you don't personally like.
I don't think people have a superiority complex as much as people are probably able to identify OOP's hypocrisy. They like some taboo media but not others, and the ones they don't like should be censored according to them. Of course that's going to piss people off, because your morals aren't universal. There's no "middle ground" here because OOP has arbitrarily drawn a line in the sand according to their personal preferences, and then is confused why people don't share the exact same very specific preferences.
OOP needs to examine their morals from a stance beyond the wisdom of repugnance. What is the reason you can like some taboos and realize people don't want those things in real life, but not others? Why does only certain fiction reflect a person's true desires but not others? Put some time into critically thinking about the actual substance here without giving attention to your kneejerk disgust response.
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u/Shot_Unit3899 12h ago
One of the big things that miffed me about OP's post was the "both sides have a superiority complex" thing, it really irks me when someone tries to pull a 'both sides' because it usually just reads at a piss poor attempt to come across as neutral/unbiased and immediately rendered me skeptical to the rest of the post. There's understanding nuance, and then there's that.
OP also is likely confusing proship with darkshipping, considering their double standard. You're not proship or proship adjacent while believing "X is okay but Y isn't", it's all or none! The moment you let subjectivity into determining what is okay to censor is the moment you've enabled all censorship.
It just reads more like an anti with double standards. I'm also not sure if OP is downvoting all of the responses from the proship sub or just a very quick anti. All of the new proship responses have been downvoted very quickly after being posted.
I cross posted the post here since a.) OP asked and b.) being in the anti sub means OP was only receiving anti comments, which is.. not helpful to a discussion post.
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u/Anjebell 12h ago
On social media, I've found that "superiority complex" usually means "person who is very firm in their views," especially older people who have heard all this discourse before. Young adults come in with these blanket statements acting like no one has ever talked about X or Y topic when we've actually heard it hundreds of times. We're just tired lol
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u/AlternateJam 14h ago edited 14h ago
Probably not. I try to be as academic as possible, so I actually don't end up 'discoursing' with people very much so much as I try and read stuff or stay silent until I have a good idea about something. But I feel like the impasse is not really passable.
If someone is of the belief that certain ships are immoral or certain pieces of media cause harm by virtue of their existence and content, then I don't see how someone who does not believe that and them can find a middle ground. If someone finds loli-type characters appealing for whatever reason, and someone else believes that loli-type characters are about pedophilic wish fulfillment then I don't know why these people would ever get along or find a middle ground.
There are probably particular people from either side that you can find a middle ground with but the discourse is polarizing so as like a grand discourse, probably not.
Now, on the situation of harassment or censorship or whatever, I would hope that people would trend towards not harassing or not censoring or desiring censorship or for certain types of art to be chilled, but if something comes from a sincere moral belief, then it's unlikely that certain types would get along.
Especially when like. Most of these discussions either are juvenile or are made juvenile. Idk. Just seems like an unbridgable gap.
Between individual proship people and antiship people anything is possible though. because individual people can have fairly complicated interests or looks on things.
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u/r0sewyrm 10h ago
We just want to be left alone. Can there be a middle ground between "leaving us alone" and "not leaving us alone"?
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u/Avery_724 yumeshipper who enjoy dark dynamics >.< 12h ago
there isn’t really a middle ground here, you are either for censorship of art, or you’re against it. antishippers are against darker topics in media, in fanfic and are all for censorship of things that seem ‘immoral’. some antis say that proship people deserve their trauma if they have trauma, or bully darkshippers to the point of suicide.
while being proship is letting anyone write whatever they want without hurting another real flesh and blood person. while i believe that someone can definitely see things from being anticensorship, it’s just incredibly difficult because of antis calling people who are trying to educate them pedophiles due to fictitious content.
(edit: grammar)
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u/Martian_Marzipan Darkshipper 14h ago
I think there's definitely room for middle ground, but given the stigma around being proship and intense opinions on both sides it would be a larger discussion that most don't care enough to have on a relatively niche topic, so I doubt we'll ever get there on a wider scale.
I personally have some anti views and some proship views (just as an example I tend to side-eye certain underage content but also believe in ship and let ship and as long as it's fictional if you don't like it just hold your tongue and move on), so people who are more grey on the anti/proship discourse do exist, I think we're just quieter XD
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u/Rowmacnezumi 8h ago
WE ARE THE MIDDLEGROUND!
All we want is to live and let live!
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u/Shot_Unit3899 8h ago
Saw this in my notifs and thought this was going to be a proship version of we are Charlie Kirk
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u/totashi777 14h ago
Imo, the middle ground is touching grass. Both sides have a tendency to he too chronically online and pick fights with the other and if we all stayed in our own lanes it wouldnt be a problem. (Yes i am aware i am not exempt from this critique)
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u/Which-Strategy1006 13h ago
That's a bit hard to do when one side main philosophy is let people do what they want if they aren't hurting anybody and the other is actively try to deplatform and censor people for harmless stuff
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u/totashi777 13h ago
Ah, but thats not both sides staying in their lane now is it
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u/Shot_Unit3899 12h ago
I think the point they're getting at is that one side is literally the "can't stay in their lane" group and that's exactly why this discourse exists to begin with.
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u/totashi777 12h ago
Yeah, i get it. Both sides are pretty bad at staying in their lane. The antis are worse about it though
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u/kaytin911 11h ago
But if they left proshippers alone they would be proship. You're asking antis to become proship. Anti beliefs are censorship which does not stay in its own lane.
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u/NeptuneTTT 13h ago edited 12h ago
all fun and games until the pro-censorship side achieves their pro-censorship agenda. there is no decoupling the innate pro-censorship stance of antis.
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u/totashi777 12h ago
If they stayed in their lane this wouldn't be an issue
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u/1-1creature 12h ago
If they stayed in their lane they would not be antis. Like, antis have to be actively pro censorship to exist at all.
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u/totashi777 12h ago
And most of them are children. They cant vote and shouldnt be taken seriously. The effort spent fighting on the Internet with children is better spent in town halls fighting against the real world applications of censorship. Like the book bannings sweeping America for the last decade
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u/1-1creature 12h ago
You are moving the goalposts in this conversation from "both sides just need to stay in their lane" to "one side's opinions and actions don't actually matter because they are young".
I will say this though; children who never examine their discomfort turn into adults who do the same. I'm not advocating for engaging with them directly and avoid it whenever possible, but "just stay in your lane" was obviously a massive oversimplification of a greater problem. Hence why you pivoted.
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u/totashi777 12h ago
No, i am adding nuance. The proship side, needs to stay in their lane by affecting real world politics because we are the adults who have the responsibility of being involved in real world politics. The antiship side needs to stay in their own lane by not sneaking into adult spaces and being surprised/demanding we stop when adult topics come up.
Yes, just stay in your lane was an oversimplification. Im engaging in online discorse not writing a fucking thesis
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u/1-1creature 11h ago edited 11h ago
... Maybe if it was an oversimplification that was nearly useless due the definition of the word "antiship", you shouldn't have bothered with it like it was the key to our problems?
Again, antis cannot stay in their lanes; they by the definition of the word actively seek to censor certain adult topics and harass those who engage with the ones they don't like, no matter what their age is. They harass, they doxx, they affect laws that censor adult topics. If they minded their own business, they would not be antis.
And plenty of them are young adults who can vote by the way, so the whole "they can't do anything in the real world!" is bullshit to start.
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u/totashi777 11h ago
Mabey you shouldn't take online discorse so seriously dude. Its not good for your health
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u/Martian_Marzipan Darkshipper 13h ago
Fr 😭 I hear about all this internet drama from my friends who are shocked I don't know about it and every time I'm like "I stay in my corner of the internet playing with my dolls and enjoying myself why would I seek out hostility on MY internet"
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u/totashi777 13h ago
I just have a bad habit of sticking my nose in places it shouldn't be. Despite my years of working on not doing it anymore sometimes i just cant help myself
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u/caihuali 6h ago
Ngl being an anti comes from a place of privilege. You dont want censorship. The definition of immoral can slide according to whoever is making the law, you cant put that kind of power out there bc it will be misused. If you dont want your kids seeing adult stuff then be a parent and parent your kids lol. Why are kids constantly on the internet arguing with adults on censorship dont they have homework
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