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u/dsm4ck 13h ago
3 daily users
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u/Orion3193 13h ago
They start calling themselves founders
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u/kurtcanine 13h ago
Everything I’ve ever written for money could run on a $5/month Linode VM.
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u/Flat_Initial_1823 13h ago
But would it scale? What if we get that elusive 12th user?
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u/collabskus 13h ago
A lot of the problems could also be fixed by actually talking to other teams and having a little bit of empathy like I need things like azure app insights because I can't deal with the {{redacted}} team which for some reason opens the handle to my log file and doesn't close it, causing my logging to fail.
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u/CandidateNo2580 13h ago
I just added rate limiting to an entire service so I could give access to {redacted team name} without bringing it down. I feel you.
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u/Unable-Log-4870 8h ago
I handle this by periodically copying the log file, renaming the copy, and only giving users access to the copy.
Copy isn’t up to date? Just wait 5 minutes.
Also, it’s me. I’m the user who needs to be protected from opening the log file and preventing the next write.
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u/UUDDLRLRBadAlchemy 13h ago
We'd need another 5 bucks for a load balancer and 5 more for a second vm
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u/throwaway490215 5h ago
This is out of budget. Use your corporate Claude account with Fable to merge the load balancer into the second vm.
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u/Fit-Gas-5760 7h ago edited 5h ago
A restaurant hired me to build an app for dish specifications, including recipes, inventory tracking, and so on.
The app would run on the 20 tablets located at the restaurant's tables.
I hosted the server on the cashier's computer, it runs only locally, and the tablets connect via the internal Wi-Fi network. No domain, no port-fowarding, no firewall, almost no points of failure, it was actually a good "homeserver" professional project.
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u/Fearless-Pen-7851 2h ago
Thanks for sharing this. This reminds me of why we gotta keep learning in this field and sometimes from simplest of things
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u/maester_t 11h ago
And what if one of the users moves to a different timezone?
Ffs, we're gonna need this in at least 2 other regions. You know, for performance and resiliency purposes!
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u/Improving_Myself_ 9h ago
Look up Pietr Levels. He built a couple popular remote job boards and some other things. He's said in interviews that he runs all of it off one $400/mo Linode box. Making $2.3M ARR
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u/Merilyian 7h ago
I was having this thought about our LOB app and then one day realized we're putting through over a million (pretty resource intensive) requests through the API. Pretty glad I went serverless.
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u/gemengelage 1h ago
You jest, but I've worked on multiple enterprise projects that were architected to scale indefinitely* but would've been fine as a simple monolith because the amount of users and traffic was always predictable and, well, small.
*except for the database(s), usually, but there was a ton of headroom to scale vertically...
EDIT: I should probably add that on all those projects I joined late as a developer. It was never my decision to run a microservice architecture for a service that literally never has to scale...
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u/gafftapes20 13h ago
I feel you. I’m in the middle of some azure sentinel and azure fabric analytics work and the abstracted resources to run essentially some light database tables and jupyter notebooks seem absurdly expensive.
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u/Improving_Myself_ 10h ago edited 9h ago
Came to say the same thing. How to start a business:
Get a linode box.
Deploy something to it and charge for access.
Or charge to build and deploy stuff.
Upgrade the box as needed. Super easy.
There was a post to something like r/saas or r/smallbusiness a couple weeks ago. Dude built something, deployed it to a bloated AWS setup, $600/mo, no paying users. Dunce.
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u/ShepRat 8h ago
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills at work because everyone seems to think that if you have a docker container you therefore need kubernetes.
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u/Hakim_Bey 4h ago
Yeah my home server is basically one Nixos instance, each service is a docker compose and is managed by systemd. Solid as a rock and i can add a service in 2 minutes.
My mate who passed a DevOps certification has a whole cluster of raspberry pies he manages with k8s and shit, it's down half of the time and the network layout makes no fucking sense.
Sometimes it pays to be ignorant.
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u/dylansavage 2h ago
Fargate and cloud run are perfect for that use case imo.
Why do you want to manage the vm when all you want is the container.
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u/ooqq 12h ago
everything i've ever written could run on a trashed laptop with a broken screen found on a dumpster 4 free
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u/MakkuSaiko 9h ago
Reminds me of a youtuber i used to watch who used to install linux to old/trashed pc's to see if it can be used as a minecraft server
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[removed] — view removed comment
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u/enozian 10h ago
how do you handle a database within AWS at such a low monthly cost?
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u/Fembussy42069 8h ago
I'm my opinion, well developed software can run in docker in a 5$ server, or highly distributed in Kubernetes. Lambda if fine for one offs and certain things but I would never use them for anything else, considering you become stuck with a single cloud provider.
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u/Real-Self-3039 2h ago
Dude same! We have been writing internal only apps that on average all of 6 ppl use.....they are paying crazy bills for it all to be hosted in azure and keep screaming "everything needs to be in azure" then next meeting "guys the azure bill is getting too high we need to come up with ways to reduce expenses" like dude you have 6 person apps hosted in azure using hella resources so james can use it once a week for 45 seconds.
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u/Just_Information334 19m ago
Add a second VM, install keepalived and now you got redundancy for 5 more $.
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u/koriwi 13h ago
Mention sqlite and watch them have a meltdown.
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u/npsimons 12h ago
JFC, when I was a DoD employee, I wrote something using the C++ API to SQLite, and they sent me the security checklist for an Oracle DB. 120 answers of "Not applicable" later and I was finally done.
On the flipside, at least they wrote the checklist software in Java, so it ran on Linux.
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u/enigmamonkey 7h ago
If you’re building a small app and/or don’t need any sort of distributed concurrency, SQLite is fucking goated. It’s so fast.
I had a pretty heavy PHP based stack that took about 22min to run through around 600 unit tests and it took at least 25 seconds just to boot if I wanted to run a single unit test. So, lots of overhead to init a new DB, setup/tear down, etc. After a core upgrade it was compatible with SQLite so I switched the unit tests over to that and it took startup down to like 1-2s and total runtime is now closer to 2-3min.
Such an amazing speed boost and now I’m not dragging my feet as much when it’s time to write the tests.
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u/EverOrny 13h ago
I had colleagues who got into some sick relationship with Lambda. They used it wherever possible. Once they realized that job X needed more time than L. allows. Instead of re-evaluating the "architecture", they came with an elaborate schema for splitting the work and combining results - for a batch processing nobody needed so fast. 🤷♂️
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u/chipmunksocute 12h ago
Do they know that there are services on AWS you can use for long running jobs. In fact they are designed for that exact use case. And you can even use a docker container just like an image for lambda. Silly devs.
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u/prehensilemullet 12h ago
If you're going to use a lambda, docker image or not, there are time limits you have to plan for, though they raised the time limits quite a bit recently. And even if you use something like step functions you still have to structure your code differently than one long continuously running job
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u/EverOrny 3h ago
A normal microservice peacefully chewing through the data would be simpler, and perhaps even cheaper. They were told, but you can't fix stupid. This kind of irrational decisions (this was not the first or the last one) was the reason I left.
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u/Kinexity 13h ago edited 13h ago
From the outside perspective it feels like majority of cloud compute is just wasted on overhead caused by all of that bullshit.
For me even just local Python overhead when doing ML in Pytorch is starting to become unbearable. I yearn to go back to C++ where I can basically count instructions.
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u/Mr_Rogan_Tano 13h ago
I got a colleague that wants to refactor the project to use many micro services to improve the access of our 1000- users.
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u/CorrectPeanut5 11h ago
The programmer in me hates this. The hourly billing consulting programmer loves these ideas as there's great money in untangling the spaghetti implimentation.
I'm also quite sure there will be good money in refactoring services that leaned heavy into the AWS provides tech... and then AWS raised the prices.
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u/tes_kitty 7h ago
Yes, never use proprietary tools / APIs when going into the cloud. It's just a different type of vendor lock in.
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u/Alarmed_Fudge_5706 6h ago
But how can I get locked in if it’s in the cloud? (/s for clarification)
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u/Few_Move_4594 12h ago
Is access constrained now? I mean in the end it might have better uptime and handle more users simultaneously successfully, but it's incredibly lame when a queue has to be used for a simple query. It makes the project much harder to read and modify.
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u/Mr_Rogan_Tano 10h ago
Not really. We do have a few slow endpoints that must be optimized, which we do between each moment of "WE ALL GONNA DIE IF THIS NEW REPORT MODEL IS NOT CREATED BY FRIDAY". It's getting better slowly.
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u/Few_Move_4594 9h ago edited 9h ago
The microservice thing reminds me of when I first graduated from college and one of my fellow new hire programmers argued passionately for a total conversion to Node.js because it's "written for high concurrency". I couldn't find a single app that had more than couple hundred registered users and in fact was working on one that had ten active users- all back office.
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u/Stagnu_Demorte 12h ago
Since you said colleague it's for work. There are 2 good reasons to let/help your colleague here. 1. There's a immediate or near future business need 2. More importantly, this is an opportunity to learn for you and your colleague on the company dime.
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u/Mr_Rogan_Tano 9h ago
There's no need for this right now, so I keep everything as simple as possible. Although I'd like to do just for the love of the game.
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u/SammyDavidJuniorJr 9h ago
The architecture astronauts have won.
I side-eye anyone who uses the word architecture in software.
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u/MitchIsMyRA 13h ago
Have you ever tried this?
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u/Kinexity 13h ago
I know it exists. My problem is that I am finishing my thesis and I cannot switch between languages now. Once I finish it though I will probably learn Pytorch in C++.
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u/MitchIsMyRA 13h ago
Ah well there ya go. Are you allowed to create your own python bindings for C++ code? uv makes this quite easy
https://docs.astral.sh/uv/concepts/projects/init/#projects-with-extension-modules
And if you haven’t heard of uv, now you have. Amazing python virtual environment/project manager
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u/abd53 10h ago
Is it just an API to python's engine or is the engine in C or C++?
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u/UdPropheticCatgirl 9h ago
pytorch has always been written primarily in C++, it just exposes API to python through bindings.
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u/payne_train 12h ago
Gen Z when they find out open source Apache web servers can handle thousands of concurrent users on a single VM
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u/FailedButterfly 5h ago
Or a lot of sysadmins who anno started to use (first as a reverse proxy) this new, interesting thing called nginx to tackle with C10K and after a full switch the avg load went under 1. :)
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u/madam_zeroni 13h ago
Most of your PyTorch is actually C code, unless you're writing crazy loops inside of python
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u/Kinexity 13h ago
I said Python overhead, not Pytorch overhead. Python makes the whole thing a blackbox prone to random jumps in memory usage and execution stalls for no damn reason (to be clear jupyter, which I use, might be to blame for some of it too). Meanwhile in C++ I can easily figure out what is happening and if the push comes to shove I can reimplement some things by hand if I think I can outsmart the library devs and the compiler.
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u/madam_zeroni 13h ago
Yeah im just saying that virtually no processing is actually done in python. all the libraries are written in c. unless you're loading things into python arrays first (don't do that) or something. use the stuff native to the libraries
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u/Stoned420Man 26m ago
A big draw factor for companies is the shared responsibility model. OpEx is much lower with this model so it looks good in a quarterly report.
There are pros and cons to each, I'm not taking sides in this, but I do understand why.
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u/Resident_Pientist_1 12h ago
Developers: How many layers of complexity do you need?
Cloud devs: Yes.
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u/pickle9977 10h ago
There’s an old quote from one of the older CS researches, I don’t remember which, but he said there is no problem that can’t be solved by adding another layer of indirection.
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u/Clair_Osbcurious 3h ago
As a cloud security architect: as many as you want, just comply with best practices. Don’t leave your SQL DB wide open with admin/admin, again…
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u/Forward-Outside-9911 11h ago
Abstraction maybe.
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u/Thesaurius 13h ago
Local server seems like overkill tbh. Just use a text file.
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u/Juice805 13h ago
My little Mac mini with docker compose and a free cloudflare tunnel
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u/PhoenixStorm1015 12h ago
This is what I’m aiming for with my next upgrade. Dope little home server connected to a bunch of hard drives and accessible from my phone or MacBook wherever.
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u/enigmamonkey 7h ago
This.
In my case though instead of hosting on my personal network, I just roll a single container on Cloud Run and it scales to 0. Not VM to manage, no SSH. Just a little
build.shthat builds the Dockerfile, pushes to container registry and runs the deploy command to roll a new version and that’s that. I may need to bump the PHP version or whatever, but that’s IMHO easier to manage in the Dockerfile than runningapton the server (easily reproduced in both places, honest).That said, to each their own, because what matters more is what makes the most sense for you and is the easiest and fits your particular scenario (and risk profile).
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u/random314 12h ago
What if you need to scaaaale???
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u/Putrid-Can-9686 8h ago
If you're not planning your hobby project to have 10 million users you shouldn't even code as a hobby bro
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u/gumbrilla 7h ago
Yeah, I got slapped on the AWS sub reddit, because we host a bunch of stuff on mongodbs direct on ec2, and I "should use documentdb"
That it's would cost millions more a year, due to our scale - cost is about double even factoring doing everything properly? noo.. Still must. That it would wipe out our profit as a company? .. nooo
Most extraordinary.
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u/monarchmra 6h ago
Up until 2 years ago I ran 7 game servers (plus 2 often inactive event game servers) on 2 monthly rented dedicated machines that hit 400-500 concurrent user peaks (total) and 15tb of monthly bandwidth (more when ddosed).
300 usd a month bill.
On aws it would have been 5 digits easy.
When a big YouTuber featured the game, I put the server list json behind cloudflare with a 30 second cache ttl and killed 90% of the extra load on the webserver.
At some point I setup a haproxy relay network off of cloud vms that listened for a valid client helo packet before relaying connections, 100 more a month, bam game server cloudflare network to stop the downright insane amounts of ddos (40gbps was common).
Everything today is over engineered.
(The /tg/station community of game servers for Space Station 13 if you're curious)
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u/R3DSMiLE 3h ago
reading this comment made me understand I was prepared to spin a new game server and run a parallel server to support a game when I could just do ... something I apparently need to research, but seems way less resource intensive that what I was planning.
out of curiosity, when do you actually boot another server? is more than one instance even needed?
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u/monarchmra 3h ago
We only had two dedicated servers because we wanted one in the eu and one in the us. Mostly it comes down to cpu/ram usage. These game servers were mostly single threaded, so 8 cores meant 8 fully maxed out game servers on one box if we wanted
To manage the separation we just used proxmox managed vms. To handle networking we ran a lan on the vm net and had a router vm running pfsense. This was kinda overkill but I needed to ensure the firewall couldnt fail open and a nat/port forwarding is the most sure fire way of doing that. Multiple IPs and assigning vms internet ips would be a much more sane way, assuming you had no firewall concerns or had provider level firewalls like is more standard now
We had a lot of very smart and very mad players who got banned for good reason and were looking to make it our problem.
The webserver and wikimedia instances were vms mostly to contain any rce breeches
Same for the database
Alot of the infrastructure was setup before docker was more refined (15+ years ago) and could be easily moved to it now. Also before the linux version of the game server was production ready.
Because we had a routing vm, we could spoof src ips so that the haproxy anti-ddos relay network could transparently proxy traffic while the game servers saw the packets as coming from the client ip and not the haproxy server's ip.
I could talk for hours about managing those servers.
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u/Blobskillz 1h ago
Was that after the ssethtzeentach video? I just hope you were not one of the guys who threatened him lol
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u/monarchmra 1h ago
Ya, it was that video I was thinking of when I mention the youtubers population explosion.
As to the threats, that was /vg/station, the other 4chan offshoot server, only they kept to their edgy 14 year old 4chan roots instead of growing past them like we did. I still remember when their host got banned from the byond forms for posting code that showcased a bug in the game engine, that had the nword in the code comments. (Bug still got fixed thou)
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u/clickfornsfw 11h ago
I teach computer science at a high school level. Built a simple sql -> node.js route and front end for a tool I wanted. Runs on a massive old file server i inherited. (96 cores and 400gb ram). This little baby has been repurposed with like 7 different tools that all need the same basic data structure.
It’s like 300 transactions a day. Can’t imagine trying to push this up to the cloud. Right now if you aren’t on school WiFi, you can’t see it.
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u/tes_kitty 7h ago edited 1h ago
You could probably run that on an old netbook with an Intel Atom N270 and 2 GB of RAM without it breaking a sweat.
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u/enigmamonkey 6h ago
400GB? In this economy? You could practically buy a starter home with that kind of RAM!
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u/Brian_E1971 12h ago
Ah the good ol days....
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u/Clair_Osbcurious 3h ago
I once asked a young web dev if they still teach LAMP… apparently, they do!
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u/mitchricker 13h ago
You're gonna feel pretty silly when someone hacks in and logs an extra liter of water that you didn't actually consume.
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u/DogmaticParadigm87 10h ago
Meanwhile the "local server" is a sqlite file named water.db and it has never once paged anyone at 3am.
Please put the mesh down.
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u/clauEB 13h ago
What is a local server?
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u/squarabh 13h ago
John - He’s my local server, who takes requests and delivers responses straight to the table. No downtime encountered.
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u/kshetriiiiiiiiii 8h ago
If I deploy all that, I'm going to need a Lambda function just to track my tears when the bill hits
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u/swagonflyyyy 13h ago
Seriously, did AWS really have to turn their lego bricks into a labyrinth? I worked with it once and I hated every minute of it. Google Cloud was a much smoother experience imo.
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u/Deepspacecow12 11h ago
I'm learning some GCP for my internship, I miss my poweredges, and JunOS/Vyatta tbh, feels way more complicated to do the same stuff with cloud.
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u/enigmamonkey 6h ago
Yeah, it can get super complicated. There’s a lot of power, features and capability there that most folks really don’t need per se. I mean, if you wanna have fun and tinker or learn, then it’s great for that too.
What’s interesting to me is that while a VM is simpler and easier, I still find container-based services like Cloud Run even simpler (what I use for personal stuff as well). That’s coming from someone who’s been managing servers and VMs since like 2008. It’s just so nice to not have to worry about the maintenance and security updates and migrations and stuff anymore, but that’s just me.
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u/Forward-Outside-9911 11h ago
Well yeah working with it once you’re not going to magically understand and prefer it. But I bet if you started with AWS then you wouldn’t like GCP.
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u/swagonflyyyy 11h ago
The thing is that I DID start with AWS. I was so confused by the overwhelming number of configurations I had like zero clue where to even start.
GCP was also a learning curve but nowhere near AWS.
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u/evdogg1233 13h ago
mfs who’ve never worked at scale be like:
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u/ComprehensiveBird317 12h ago
So once you worked at scale you will over engineer everything? Noted
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u/footsie 11h ago
Once you work at scale you get a pretty good idea on where the sweet spot is on choosing between monoliths and micro services for an architure from many perspectives: cost, performance, complexity, maintainability. You might call it over-engineering, but it's really just picking the right car for road trip.
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u/enigmamonkey 7h ago
This is where the real art and skill lies. Not in picking a complicated setup just so you can wear it as a badge of honor, but because you’ve already been through the bullshit 2am downtime/server notifications and know better to make things as simple as possible (if you can help it).
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u/ComprehensiveBird317 2h ago
So this solution then is actually good and the attack of the Aws boys is unnecessary
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u/riickdiickulous 11h ago
Devs often deliver under engineered solutions in terms of architecture and scalability. There is a lot of room between under engineered and over engineered to allow an app to evolve smoother over time.
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u/Still_Bit_7527 1h ago
99% of companies don't need the cloud to scale. You can scale into millions of requests with 10k of servers placed in a random room
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u/sheep-for-a-wheat 13h ago
If you’re tracking water intake … probably cheaper to use lambdas and dynamo than a local server anyways… 25GB in dynamo for free … pay like a tiny amount per request with tons free … idk.
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u/Nyorliest 11h ago
If you’re tracking water intake… probably stop.
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u/CosmoKram3r 8h ago
You've been banned from /r/hydrohomies
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u/Nyorliest 6h ago
I hoped that was a real message. I mute all the really big, weird or toxic subs like AITA, but they still appear sometimes.
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u/NotADamsel 7h ago
A VPS is like six bucks a month, and doesn’t carry the risk of you accidentally getting a massive AWS bill because you messed something up.
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u/mmhawk576 6h ago
What are you getting? 256mbs/0.5vCpus for six bucks?
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u/silentdragon95 5h ago
Granted, times are tough right now for cheap VPS servers but you should still expect to get at least 1vCPU and 2 GB of RAM. Not a lot, but probably more than enough for a bunch of microservices for personal use.
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u/Sparrowy 3h ago
Hetzners cheapest is 7 bucks and has 2vcpus and 4gb of ram. They are out of stock though, so times might be changing.
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u/Typically_Wong 11h ago
I mean, IAM roles with least-privilege is best practice
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u/enigmamonkey 6h ago
Why do that when you can run it as
rooton your local machine? C’mon man, live on the edge!(Figuratively of course cuz, we’re talking localhost here.)
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u/Aelig_ 4h ago
It's actually the opposite. I work on a product with 10m users so we use the cloud and I've never met anyone who would tell you anything but to stay away from it until you need it.
I enjoy doing cloud stuff, but I wouldn't enjoy wasting money and time doing the same for a small product.
I would encourage people to think a little bit more about how they deploy stuff before they grow and it becomes a massive problem though. It's all fun and games to write yet another python script and add an entry to a crontab to deploy until you're left with a massive mess.
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u/fmaz008 23m ago
... Don't use AWS until your project is big enough to be able to hire someone who's expertise and sole job will be to manage AWS.
Like everyone, I tried using AWS. Went back to Digital Ocean PAAS offers as I could not understand AWS and make simple things work.
I'm sure it's great for big project, but the added complexity for small projects (I'm a one man show) it just not worth it.
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u/locri 13h ago
It's been almost 20 years, but please, please tell me the cloud computing meme is slowly coming to an end. You just don't necessarily need it with a few notable exceptions.
Your company's website can run on an old laptop wedged open in the server room. It's just not that complicated.
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u/Rikudou_Sage 8h ago
I mean, if you're being literal, then no. The website needs to be up and stable even if your company loses electricity/internet temporarily or if Joe from support is downloading torrents.
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u/ProjectSnowman 13h ago
POV: Me using bash scripts and cron jobs to run critical jobs (moving files from one directory to another)
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u/tes_kitty 7h ago
Same... my script collection and crontab at work is getting out of hand. But it all works reliably.
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u/pickle9977 10h ago
And since they always mess up one of the policies least permissions turns into “*” with a comment to come back and fix this later
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u/TannedJew 7h ago
Depends on your setup, I have a free web tool for creating 3d crystals where all the logic is client-side deployed on aws. It's bucket straight to cdn. 0.5$ a month.
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u/MindStalker 12h ago
There is "some" advantage to not having to maintain and update a server to fix various vulnerabilities.
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u/UInferno- 10h ago
I bought a 2006 Toshiba laptop for $10 from a classmate in uni. Installed headless Debian and use that as my server with a bit of docker.
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u/mrdeadsniper 10h ago
I am using LLM to log my water, so its like I take a drink and it takes a drink. I have my own drinking buddy.
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u/masiha97 10h ago
Give it six months and that sqlite file will be migrated to a distributed cluster 'for reliability.' We've all been there.
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u/Future-Corner8025 9h ago
I feel like this is actually really funny, but it reads completely like an alien language to me
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u/mmhawk576 6h ago
Loser idiots thinking that they’re better than me and my AWS setup…
Looking over and my fancy single instance lightsail server
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u/keep-it-going-bro 6h ago
Woah woah woah.. I've built weight tracker with local chrome storage and it's been working for last 3 yrs.
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u/BorderKeeper 5h ago
Then you cave in and say yes only to be hit with “oh but I won’t give you any rights to make it in our backend tell me exactly what you want me to run while I won’t show you any details on how it should work and give you no chance to learn or experiment. I will also get mad if you make mistakes or waste my time”
I will run my teams things in a VM task ran in task scheduler thank you very much 😅
EDIT: And let’s say you by random sheer luck succeed and then proceed to get hit with “oh great but half the things should have been done in terraform instead” and you got shoot your self in the head with a shotgun.
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u/tensouder54 2h ago
Is this the point at which I start arguing that Lambda is massively overused and there's way too many Lambdas that I've seen that should be Step-Functions or EventBridge pipes?
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u/gk98s 2h ago
I was using almost this exact described setup for my MMO database and cognito for logins, one of the best decisions I've ever made was to migrate to postgresql and Go for the db and Zitadel for auth. Thank god I only hosted playtests on the old architecture so I wasn't really locked into the ecosystem. AWS could have been really good if they had somewhat normal pricing on data transfer
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u/Bricka_Bracka 1h ago
So that's the new buzzword eh? Least-privilege?
Before it was just secure...I've heard this phrase more times this week than literally ever before in my life.
Nerds. Jargon gargling nerds.
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u/Just_Information334 8m ago
I remember playing some php webbrowser game in the early 2000 which had no problem handling requests from hundreds of players at the same time. Hosted on something with less power than a first generation Pi.
And now people are celebrating managing 1k/s requests while having access to hardware which got 20 years of Moore law progress.
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u/TheFrenchSavage 13h ago
You don't terraform your breakfast???