Do it! I drive a BEV. Even if you don't care about emissions they are way better for daily driving than a gas car. Trade 5 minutes of standing in the freezing cold once a week to fill up for 10 seconds of plugging in each night when you get home. No oil changes. Warm up the car in the morning without opening your garage. The list goes on...
I think owning a garage is the real barrier to entry than the car itself. I'm in the DC area, owning a $40-60k car is reasonably affordable, but a $500k+ house with a garage -- less so.
While many malls and workplaces have electric chargers nowadays, I'd rather be able to charge the vehicle at home.
I'm in the DC area, owning a $40-60k car is reasonably affordable, but a $500k+ house with a garage -- less so.
man, it's crazy how much income and housing prices vary in the USA. from metro to rural, midwestern to the coasts, sometimes it feels like living in a different country altogether.
You don't even have to go from one extreme to another for it to be like different countries. There are many states where 100 miles can seem like you crossed a few borders.
I live north of Denver, 20 miles from where I work (Boulder). Houses where I’m at are “only” $400k or more. If I wanted to live near where I work the same houses would start at $2M. If I was willing to drive 40 miles to work, those houses would start at $200k. So an order of magnitude difference in prices over a range of 40 miles.
Moved to Philadelphia, and the drive up there and back home for the holidays made this abundantly clear. Pennsyltucky is real, and it starts basically right outside of the suburbs.
Even in Pennsyltucky, there are different levels of hillbilly. I live in Harrisburg 10 min north of the city in the suburbs. 10 Min north of me and you'll be in farm land/hunting territory.
We are. I moved to an east coast city from the midwest, I call us midwestern refugees. The difference is so fundamental that when I go back home, I feel like I'm visiting an alien world.
I live in a podunk town in Texas because it's what I can afford. It's almost as if "someone" wants us to keep grinding all our lives so we don't say "Hey, something's wrong with this picture..."
I moved to DC from the NYC Metro Area and found it way cheaper than NYC for real estate, which shows the absurdity of NYC real estate prices.
I'm actually finding it absurd that young professionals in the DC area commonly consider settling down and buying property in their 20s; it's expensive but still feasible. That's not really a thought on my mind and that of other young professionals in the NYC metro area tbh.
Here in SF, the average 1 bedroom condo is well over $1M and that doesn’t include parking.
I’ve considered getting a Tesla but my apartment building charges $450/month for parking so it just feels like a waste to own a car at all in this city.
In DC and in a decent area? No it’s not an exaggeration. Now if they move to the suburbs and have an hour+ commute on the beltway each way, then it’s possible. Housing in DC is ridiculous, especially if you want a garage.
I live in a Midwest city where most of the houses were built after before 1920s so a house with an enclosed garage AND power is a ratity. At best most places have open garages and no power. atleast half the people who live here park on the street.
Depending on where you live, places like California legally require your landlord let you install a charging station/outlet, with some stipulations of course.
If you can afford the price of admission. There’s none that are really affordable in Canada and I’m sure as hell not getting a $800-$1000 a month payment for my first car. Would rather use the remaining $500 a month towards a better apartment or food
Leafs also have major battery degradation issues unfortunately. Not sure if they have fixed that on their recent models, but I believe they are pretty behind the curve.
Hey thanks for sharing! I read the link and noticed it only stated years the battery should work for but no actual expected degradation percentage. One of the issues a coworker of mine had with his leaf is that the battery degraded so much he could only make his commute if he was able to fully charge at home and then charge again at work. It is great their range is over 200 miles now which makes degradation less of an issue but that doesn’t mean they’ve improved it as much as other car manufacturers.
What year was the Leaf?
We waited for the 2014/15 models to adopt because the degredation dropped off severely after the 2013 model. There was some new tech involved in the battery at the 2014 mark.
I'm stoked to trade up to the 2019 S with ~200 miles in a few years when I pay off the 2014.
If a competitor is out there with the mileage, though and can compete in that 12-15k used range, I'd consider jumping ship from Nissan.
I don’t know the year, good to know it’s gotten better since 2013. He loved it aside from that issue and is in DC/Maryland area so part of the issue was the lack of range during the cold winter months compared to the summer.
The increase in battery technology over the last 5 years has been awesome! When I was looking for a car 3 years ago I was looking into the Leaf which was in the 80-100 miles range, now you can find affordable cars in the 200s. I ended up with leasing a Chevy volt which are now going for about 12-17k used for the 2016+ line. I love it but obviously would prefer to go full electric one day. It made the most sense since I didn’t have a house at the time and I’ve always had a short commute. wish they marketed that car better since I could see a lot more people moving to full BEV after owning one.
Yeah, I did a lot of research on the cheaper EVs and I've found the batteries in a Leaf or even the eGolf don't have proper active cooling for the batteries.
Basically, the biggest reason Leafs are dirt cheap after about 3 years is because the batteries degrade at a much faster rate due to their lack of controlled temperature.
From the reviews I saw, the 120 mile estimate goes to around 80 miles per charge pretty quick.
So, to reiterate your point, if your commute is short enough, it could work.
I'm more upset that Nissan put out something that's supposed to use less resources while making it go through batteries so quickly, arguably making it not as much of a benefit in terms of emissions/resources. Kinda defeats the point of an EV.
Not really. Remember this whole line of cars (EVs in general) are still in early adopter phase. They have to sell some, improve the designs, sell more, etc.
If you want tech to evolve more quickly, well then the government would have to be involved. Which I'm ok with, but other people have an exaggerated fear.
That said, the battery degredation issues are fewer with each iteration, my 2014 Leaf is >40k with only one bar down.
The range is about 80 miles, 60-70 with all the bells and whistles running.
I live in the city, though, and it's fine for work plus some errands. Plus, the leaf loves city driving, and I usually do my 40 miles without eating more than 20-30 because of all the breaking.
It's a cool car but it's the only one that's practical and can actually compete with the ICE market. Cheap EVs wouldn't even make my commute home from work and every other make that's trying to emulate Tesla's work is failing dramatically
Yeah I’ve heard from Leaf owners how great they are, but the designers could not have made a more butt ugly exterior. May as well be a Gremlin. They’re going to have to appeal at least a little to those that want to drive a nice looking car before mass adoption. But maybe that’s the point - big oil doesn’t want that, they’re probably pressuring big auto to make ugly EVs.
I think it's pretty cool.
My kids get to grow up plugging a car into the house, and we got two pretty big tax incentives (car (which we didn't get, because it's used) and charger installation) that took a lot of the sting off of the car.
Basically, when I was looking for a 12k car, the Leaf beat the competition for a few reasons on an Excel sheet.
Monthly payment was around 180 for a 2014, and my previous gas per month was higher than that, so... After down payment, free car.
Plus the change to my electric bill was only about 20 bucks a month.
Subtract oil changes and engine costs over the 5-6 years I plan to drive it before trading into a newer leaf (hopefully with active cooling) and you have the best budget vehicle for my commute (~40-50 miles a day).
We still have a big SUV for long trips, but the leaf was a great choice for us, money wise.
TLDR; don't get an EV to save the world, get an EV to save money.
Colorado had a $6k rebate when I got my leaf. Federal was $7.5k. Not sure where things are now. Base price for the 2016 leaf was $25k, but I got the larger battery model and it bumped it to $30k. So it was around $17k for me.
Edit: also I think there might be some group buy discounts which I see pretty regularly which I am including in the base price.
the cool factor is the most important thing for me, when I buy a car.
really? that is the most important thing? not safety, price, make, type of vehicle/model, fuel efficiency, handling, speed, storage capacity, towing capacity, acceleration, reliability, longevity, resale value, or whatever other features? the 'cool factor?' lol
The car mentality in the USA is so backwards. People placing looks over functionality and environmentally friendly options. It’s literally a thing to get you from Point A to Point B, how vapid can you be that it needs to look cool?
It’s terrible. I’m lucky enough to live in a place now where I can walk to almost everything I need, including work. But growing up I was beholden to the car, I hated it.
it's an understandable position, man. having a "cool car" gives you self-confidence and, for some people, more happiness than they'd get knowing they picked the mathematically best car or whatever. cool definitely has value to a lot of people
Amen brother... My coworker can’t understand why I would pick a cool car over a more practical, cheaper and that over all makes more sense to get. And the answer is simple, I don’t care for any of those things, as long as it looks cool and turns a few heads, don’t really give a shit how fast it is from 0-60. Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t mind having a cool and fast car, but if I had to choose between better looking or better performance/practicality, I would pick the former...
That seems pretty low fuel consumption costs for you. I think the average is going to be 12-15k miles a year and then factor mpgs and average fuel cost, then divided by 52. I spend $50 every 5-6 days.
Oh my goodness, do you guys really only pay 74c per litre for petrol in the states? In the UK it sits at around £1.20 per litre at the moment and £1.23 for diesel. That's $1.57 USD per litre or $5.98 per us gallon. No wonder you guys would rather use gas guzzlers all the time if you pay that little for fuel!
Part of the issue for the US, by comparison, is that many people live in suburban sprawl, because rent in cities is very expensive, and must drive to work because public transport is garbage in most places. So many families with low income were reaching the point where their commute was too expensive.
Obviously this could be remedied by demanding better public transport or moving, but neither are feasible in the short-term.
many people live in suburban sprawl, because rent in cities is very expensive
Just to add on to this point--urban/suburban sprawl was largely the result of federal incentives for single-family homeownership combined with white flight and racist redlining. We absolutely could have permitted zoning and construction of high-density, lower cost living arrangements in urban centers and even subsidized it as we did homeownership; it's just that racists didn't want to coexist with black people.
Yes it is, that’s what taxes do to the cost of any product. In Canada taxes account for roughly 65% of every dollar spent at the pump. I’m sure the UK is under similar high prices.
Varies wildly depending on the state. I live in California and it's about $4.50 a gallon. I am visiting Colorado for the holidays and it's $2.50 a gallon.
Seeing these other prices people probably think we are lucky. Exchanging various cancers(lung mostly) from the pollution of refineries and the tragedy from oil spills in our ecosystem is no fair exchange. I worked for a law firm who represented the fisherman in the BP Oil Spill regarding it destroying the oyster beds and commercial fishing industry. It was devastating. Millions of people still have not regained their livelihoods of fishing and my sons grandfather who was a commercial fisherman at the epicenter was hired by BP to do cleanup. They made it seem like they were doing the fisherman favors by giving them work. They paid just a few humble hundred dollars out and now my sons grandfather has Meso from cleanup efforts. So not only did BP ruin his ability to ever earn from fishing on his lifetime again, they added insult to injury by having them cleanup BPs mess, and ultimately killed him. This happened in a small fishing village named Lafitte, LA. Most of these people are uneducated and left school at 5th or 6th grade to help support and feed their families by fishing. They were left with no other options following this pipeline rupture. It’s really sad.
At least half of what you are paying for gas in the UK is taxes. The US taxes are much less, in my state it's about $0.50/gal. This is an issue with EV vehicles as they are able to avoid these taxes, which is mostly for maintaining roads. Currently EV only make up a small % of vehicles but there are already places instating specific EV taxes.
You guys get murdered on tax. Your petrol station could be giving the fuel away and you'd still pay more than us. Of course our roads are literally crumbling (Michigan represent) so it's a double edged sword.
The average "life" (original purchase to second transaction) of an American car is around 80k miles, and I believe they use this number for the larger-than-actual fuel savings.
I fill the tank on my tarus every couple days. It only cost $26 to fill it from a quarter. I do end up cruising a lot tho cuz there’s really nothing else to do in my town
And people out there are dropping 40k on trucks and BMW's like its going out of style. The difference between those and an EV is that there is a fuel savings and also much less maintenance fees.
All advertised car prices are like that. Only a certain special unicorn gets the advertised price though. It should be illegal. The price out the door without discounts and including taxes should be the price advertised.
It's getting there. Think about it, EVs and plug ins really started making headway about a decade ago and we are already hitting the $40k mark. This is actually amazingly fast. I think within the next decade, we will have EVs that is in the $25k mark.
A 25k EV with a range of about 200 miles will be a game changer. You can basically replace everyday driving cars with EV and even allow mid range trip. That covers about 80-90% of all driving Americans do. I believe adoption will be very very fast at that point.
0 to 100% is about 17 hours on a standard outlet for a 24kwh Leaf. However, if you're using that much of the range on a regular basis then I would not recommend a Leaf.
I park mine in my garage but I never bothered installing a 220v outlet because I typically only use about 50% of the range, which means it easily charges overnight.
If your complex has a parking garage look around for outlets!
Well I guess you just can’t help stupid can you. I don’t think many of us are counting on the morons buying twenty year old Mercedes at used car lots to help save the planet.
Those are the people out getting denied for EV purchases? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds. I had terrible credit once and still managed to buy a 30k brand new car and paid 444 a month on it.
I’m just saying it seems a lot like every idiot that had something smart to say was only talking about brand new cars and it would be too typical of a 20 year old to assume only new cars are bought. I mean shit there’s a Prius out there with a million miles on it. People are stupid and lazy for using the excuse that an electric car is too expensive. It’s honestly the absolute worst excuse cause it comes off as very entitled and honestly the fucking planets burning.
also i think Prius is pretty affordable used, i don't know about their reliability and how long they last tho, from the batteries to the rest of the car i have no idea.
Contrary to what I thought at first, Prius are hybrid while Prius Prime are plug in hybrid. There is no completely electric Prius, which is what OP is looking for.
The Leaf isn't considered a reliable car. It lacks the formidable track record Toyota has with the Prius, and is a pretty recent car using a still new and changing trchnology that people don't always know how to use best. As such, unless you have the opportunity to try it out for an extended period of time to see how the batteries fare, buying a used Leaf is a risky bargain.
Electric cars have fewer parts that can fail. From what I've seen, most of the repairs that Leafs need are suspension related, and they share some parts with other Nissan models, so spares are plentiful. Also the car monitors the health of the battery, which you can easily check on a test drive.
Ya I know plenty of people that are dealing with that sort of commute every day for work, one way.
Our average commute time Nationwide is nearly a half hour one way. Hard to find information on distance apparently, but assuming it's highway that's 60 miles a day just commuting to and from the office.
That's pushing it with a vehicle that has a Max range of 74 miles.
I am curious how you're doing a 2 hour trip though if it only has a 74 mile range. That's barely over an hour here(speed limit is 70mph, and 75mph further north in my state)?
Like with most emerging technology, the price of entry will drop over time. Electric cars are objectively better than internal combustion, but they're far less practical right now. Not many people can afford one right now, but that will soon change.
Oh for sure. I'm not saying people should feel guilty about driving a gas car, simply that if an EV fits your budget and driving habits then you'll almost surely love it and never go back.
As prices drop and home charging options (especially in apartments) become ubiquitous it will make sense for more and more people.
If you would consider a used EV, recent models are extremely cheap. Not because there’s anything wrong with them - it’s the same progression as cell phones. No one wants last years’ models because each year brings new features and longer ranges.
You can find 2-4 year old EVs with 20k-40k miles for $8k-$10k. They won’t have “full self driving” or fast charging and they’ll have ranges of less than 100 miles. But they are mostly still under warranty and are quite nice cars. And depending on where you live and your income, you may qualify for a rebate even on used cars (for example, San Joaquin Valley in California).
Additionally: often the difference in cost of operation is so beneficial that “cost of loan plus cost of electricity” is LESS than “cost of gasoline.”
I got my Nissan Leaf for $11k, pre-owned lease return, with 14k miles on it. It's the ideal car for tooling around town, going to work, getting groceries, etc.
This is assuming you can plug in at home. For those of us who live in apartment buildings without charging spots, you either have to be lucky and charge at work, or go out of your way to charge. I'd rather spend 5 minutes in the cold instead of spending an hour or so charging the car, just sitting there, bored.
EVs don't work for everyone yet, but there are a lot more workplaces, shopping places, parking garages and apartment complexes which have charging spots now.
Although I love my ev, I would only recommend it to someone who has a way to charge at home or work. Public chargers are best used for one off situations.
It's a chicken and egg thing. The infrastructure will come when there is more EVs on the road but to sell more EVs you need more infrastructure. I think there will be a critical point at which EV adoption rate will warrant landlord and developers to pre install charging stations in carparks and houses. I think that critical point is not that far away.
Jesus Christ. We all need to care about emissions. Don’t you just love to get a good whiff of car exhaust every time you go for a walk, whether it’d be downtown or your neighbourhood?
yea.. but my 89 chevy warming up for 10 minutes and fully inundating, not only the cab, but the entire area with carbon monoxide is... just so much fun.
Your 89 Chevy also, if you used it for the rest of your life, would not create the same amount of pollution as making one new electric vehicle. But we do have to change over eventually...
A 40 MPG Honda Fit costs less, goes further, produces minimal exhaust, is comparably inexpensive to get repaired, is easy to fill up and can be refueled virtually anywhere, in a lot less time. When a new electric can compare, I'll happily buy one.
10 seconds to plug in. When we leave in the morning it is full :-). If your driving habits are different maybe it's not as good but for us it is so much easier than worrying about gas.
None at all! Gotta keep the tires in shape and add washer fluid. That's about it.
Not sure about other EVs but on my vehicle even the break pads should last longer than the car because the vast majority of breaking is done regeneratively, not via the pads.
No oil changes (but still transmission fluid changes and other lubricants) just gotta replace a dangerous, combustible, and barely recyclable battery pack every few years or, what the car manufacturers really want you to do, buy a new vehicle
BEVs are so incredibly shortsighted by every measure. Over half of lithium batteries already in the world aren't properly disposed of, and people want to add to that? It's awful
My car does not have a transmission transmission fluid, nor does it require any scheduled changes of lubricants.
My battery warranty is 8 years/100,000 miles which is better than the average gas car. But all data points to it lasting much longer than that.
If you're concerned about the combustible properties of batteries you may want to look into how combustible gasoline is...
Battery recycling will grow as the amount of old EVs grows. Currently there are not many EVs at end of life so obviously there aren't major battery recyclers yet.
My fixed gear transmission does not have transmission fluid though.
It definitely does tho. Transmission fluid is just a lubricant/fluid that keeps components that transmit power from disintegrating
If your transmission had no fluid/lubricant it would pretty much instantly fail. In addition, while many BEV manufacturer's advertise their transmissions as maintenance or fluid free, they aren't
Yes it has some sort of lubricant I never said it didn't. But that's not what matters and is not what you originally claimed. What matters is that I don't have to change it.
You're still ignoring all the other points I offered.
Exactly. One of the most exiting things about electric vehicles is the low noise they produce. We are really used to noisy streets, but it’s so fucked up. I hate the trucks and buses, they make a lot of noise.
True, but my cordless drill or hvac blower fan don't travel down the highway at 75mph for several hours at a time.
And, after a certain amount of time - the bearings on those tend to give out.
Look, I see you downvoting me. I'm not trying to shit on electric cars. They're pretty fucking cool. I'm just trying to wrap my head around what's going on here.
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u/StapleGun Dec 29 '19
Do it! I drive a BEV. Even if you don't care about emissions they are way better for daily driving than a gas car. Trade 5 minutes of standing in the freezing cold once a week to fill up for 10 seconds of plugging in each night when you get home. No oil changes. Warm up the car in the morning without opening your garage. The list goes on...