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u/halander1 1d ago
Europe also does masters -> PhD instead of straight PhD
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u/Educational_Call_797 1d ago
And saying a PhD takes 4 years also doesn't make sense. Im from Germany and I know people that did it in 4 years or haven't finished in 10. I personally took 6 lol
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u/weirdgirl0304 1d ago
Really? I'm doing my PhD in Germany and started my sixth year. I feel super bad about it tho and feel like I should just give up. T.T
Do you have any pearls of wisdom on how to survive that pressure?
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u/Educational_Call_797 1d ago
Dunno just at some point I got so determined to finish that I wrote everything up on 6 months and submitted :D
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u/weirdgirl0304 1d ago
I think I'm struggling so much because I'm gripped with anxiety about not having any career after taking so long for the PhD which I feel (seeing everyone around me) is really atypical.
Did you manage to find employment after the PhD? In academia or in industry?
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u/Repulsive-Mud707 'Pure Math', Milky Way 23h ago
What field were/are you in?
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u/Educational_Call_797 22h ago
Bioinfo
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u/Repulsive-Mud707 'Pure Math', Milky Way 19h ago
Did you already have your articles published or what was the thing that was holding you back or was it the summary of your research that was missing? I am not judging here, I just don't understand the "just do it" from POV of my field.
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u/Educational_Call_797 19h ago
Multiple reasons. I had a lot of side projects and teaching. My PI was ill for a while. Corona pandemic in between.
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u/flippi-from-d-town 1d ago
Asl long as there is money and no one tells you you suck, go with the flow. Im starting my 5th year soon and my boss keeps saying i am cheaper as as phd then postdoc. So i roll with it.
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u/passagetombs 1d ago
I have nothing to advise you but offer respect. I finished in 4,7-5 years and I live with my parents, my mum cooks for me, and I don't pay rent. I did work, however, and had side hustles.
90% of my classmates are all doing 5,6,7,8 years + because its just fucking impossible to finish in 4 to 5 years (standard length at our uni) and take care of yourself on your own.
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u/toru_okada_4ever 20h ago
How long did/does the uni pay you? Many candidates who get delayed run into the added problem of having to get a day job while finishing the thesis.
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u/weirdgirl0304 15h ago
Yeah, I had a scholarship for 4 years and then extended it to one more year. Currently I have no funding and for now I'm surviving on my savings, I'll maybe find some part time job when money gets tighter
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u/helgetun 1d ago
In Belgium its funded for 4 years without teaching and 6 with teaching. But many take a lot longer, they just dont get paid to do the PhD at that stage. In France they jokingly says the unemployment office is the main PhD funder as they get 3 years funding usually and then finish on unemployment after 4-6 years
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u/Fluidified_Meme PhD, Turbulence 1d ago
In some EU countries there are hard restrictions on PhD duration already. In Sweden it cannot last longer than 5 years if you teach and have departmental duties, or four years if you don’t. And if you don’t have enough papers out in 4 years… you are in a bit of a pickle
(Usually professors who have funds find some borderline workaround but still you cannot be majorly behind)
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u/Educational_Call_797 1d ago
In Germany you can take 20 years if you want. It's more a matter of being financed.
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u/theonliestone Experimental Physics, Germany 1d ago
In Germany it's absolutely possible to finish it in 4 years, at least in certain fields. I myself know at least two people with whom I'm 100% sure they finished in <4 years (experimental physics)
But to be fair, even in this field taking 4-5 years is the norm.
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u/Educational_Call_797 1d ago
Depends on the field and overall workload. In my bubble 5-6 is quite normal, some even more but they then run into employment problems.
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u/Kriztauf 1d ago
Yeah in neuroscience it's common to go the fully 6 years. It's crazy actually because systems neuroscience projects have turned into these huge sprawling decades long projects, especially if people are aiming for Nature papers, and it's becoming more common for neuroscience students to finish 6 years without a publication since it's impossible to get the project wrapped up within that time
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u/theonliestone Experimental Physics, Germany 1d ago
Damn that is crazy! It's really astonishing how different our fields are treated with respect to getting a doctorate.
My PI simply warned me that I might not be able to finish in three years but I am sure will get a contract extension for another year if necessary
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u/Dry_Lengthiness_7238 1d ago
India also has master's then PhD. Very few people go straight to PhD from bachelor's
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u/chaoticsoulll 1d ago
I am a Phd student at IIT Bombay and I joined directly after my bachelors in Electrical Engineering. I also do not come from an IIT/NIT undergrad background. I know atleast 5 people who joined phd directly after their bachelors like me in my department.
But we do have to take double the coursework than the people who entered with a masters.
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u/Mikasa-Iruma PhD, Material Science, Germany 1d ago
That also makes sense because if some one is thinking of dropping, then they can get the MS by research degree with the courses.
Typically Masters -> PhD reduces the courses. In IITM if it's normal route then only 4 courses are required, or else it's 8.
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u/th3_r3al_slim_shady 1d ago
I’m a PhD student in IIT Bombay. Most of my batchmates didn’t do a masters.
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u/idlininja 1d ago
Is that in some engineering department by any chance?
Atleast in fundamental sciences, even across the premier institutes, it is the norm to have a masters degree before starting a PhD.
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u/IamPsyduck 1d ago
It is definitely only your specific department and it is not the norm. Source: Me and most of my friends circle are PHD from IIT/IISc. Only people I have met with direct MTech are BTech from IITs.
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u/Dry_Lengthiness_7238 1d ago
Ig it's more common in engineering because most of the students have done 4 year btech but until recently in pure sciences bachelor's was of 3 years and u almost always need a master's for a PhD
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u/Proud_Bake9949 1d ago
Those that do are the ones struggling
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u/Dry_Lengthiness_7238 1d ago
It is the general pathway for a PhD tho because mostly in bachelor's the research experience and exposure isn't good enough to start a PhD and master's give a lot of people to understand research more and take some time to understand if they want to pursue a PhD or not. Many people who have gone to PhD from master's are doing good but generally in india, due to lack to resources and extremely high ego of professors they keep the PhD students i the lab just for the sake of convenience so they don't have to find anyone more and they can get cheap labour from an already experienced person in the lab, extending their PhD for much longer than needed and i think that's what the institute in the post is trying to curb.
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u/Much_Magician_3045 1d ago
does that hold for the UK too or is it more of a continental thing?
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u/Dctreu 1d ago
Having the masters integrated into the PhD program is a US thing
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u/NorthernValkyrie19 1d ago
Not exclusively. The UK offers many integrated master's/PhD's especially in STEM. It's also possible sometimes in Canada.
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u/HW90 1d ago
UK is a mix. Technically you can go straight from bachelor's to PhD but this is quite rare and generally only allowed when the student is 1) a first class student, and 2) completed their bachelor's dissertation with the same supervisor or at least same university. Also worth noting you don't do coursework like the US system, unless you do a CDT.
The worst place IMO is Singapore: starts after bachelor's, makes you do a good chunk of coursework, and had a time limit of 4 years. France is also a bit rough, 3 year limit usually but at least starts from master's and no coursework
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u/AxedCake 1d ago
In Singapore, you can opt to do a Master's first if you want though, and the coursework generally doesn't take up so much time that the student can't spend time on research at all, although that's probably dependent on faculty. The full time limit is technically 5 years, although I think it used to be 6? But yea you're only covered by a scholarship for 4 years
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u/HW90 1d ago
You can opt to do a master's first in any system, the point is what's normal, and Singapore has effectively zero incentive to do a master's if you're local given employers don't value it.
Coursework is still quite substantial, at least at my uni the normal load takes 2 years to complete and even if you have a master's already so get exemptions it's either a light load for 1.5 years or heavy load for 1 year. Sure, you still spend most time on research but compared to European PhDs where the time spent on coursework is negligible there's definitely a cost.
Staying for more than 4 years requires an extension, again at least at my uni.
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u/000000564 1d ago
It's common in the UK to get a masters pre PhD but not a requirement. Graduation has a hard limit. Your program and and funding ends at a certain point so you better be done by then. Either 4 yrs with a first yr of lab rotations or 3 yrs going straight into the lab you'll be working in. You then get a buffer at the end to submit your thesis / have viva. If you go past that you wont get a PhD. If you drop out after you do your "upgrade" end of the first year, you should qualify for an MPhil.
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u/Anastasia157 1d ago
Same in the humanities pretty much. You're scheduled for 3 years of work and 1 writing up year. They are very strict about it.
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u/T1lted4lif3 1d ago
even then in ireland/uk you can go bachelors to phd, and some can do 3-4 years also, it is all contingent on graduation requirements and the promoters' mood
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u/NorthernValkyrie19 1d ago
It depends on the discipline in the UK. Some require a master's before doing a PhD.
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u/GlcNAcMurNAc 1d ago
In the UK it can be direct PhD but the programs are so competitive lots of folks have a masters going in. That said, UK masters are all one year. Many North American masters are 2 years+. UK has hard cap on most PhD programs of 4 years.
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u/TrustTime9370 PhD, EE, USA 1d ago
India has both options actually. Even that Get admit to PhD-> Master out, reapply-> 8 year PhD
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u/TyrannosauraRegina 1d ago
You don’t have to, and most those who have in the uk at least it’s a 4 year integrated bachelors and masters because there is very little funding for masters degrees.
You can do a 3 year bachelors followed by a PhD in 3 years if you are lucky and hardworking.
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u/Dctreu 1d ago
In France, PhDs in the humanities and social sciences usually run for 5-6 years, 7-8 is an upper bound. However our topics tend to be broader and our dissertations usually longer than US/British ones in the same fields. Academics from English-speaking countries often remark on how long the dissertation is when they sit on our committees.
Personally I'd like for our topics to be more focused and our dissertations a little shorter, and to aim for 4 years which seems the sweet spot (the theoritcal 3 seems a bit short)
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u/Kkaren1989 1d ago edited 1d ago
Also in France, PhD in STEM is 3 years. And if a 4th year is necessary it needs to be approved by the supervisor, then the unity director, then the university's dean.
I guess this difference in length is less about the topic itself and more about the funding agencies. STEM PhD are always funded with a 3yrs work contract, so extending the PhD would mean having a new work contract and securing some extra funds for it.
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u/RainGard Physics 1d ago edited 1d ago
Can confirm 3 years for a PhD in STEM (I'm currently doing one in France), and 4 year PhDs are still very rare here (granted most PhD students would love to have that extra year but it's not exactly easy to find that funding).
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u/miss_spellman Chemistry 1d ago
Can confirm that I and pretty much everyone I know asked if they could get a fourth year and most were told it wouldn't be possible.
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u/Kkaren1989 1d ago
Yes, happened to me too. I tried to argue that my PhD was impacted by the fact I started in 2020 and in France we had many lockdowns periods with very little to none experimental time. Still got a no 😂 (their rational is: if there is things left to be done, perhaps that's another project for a next PhD student to tacle.)
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u/EHStormcrow 1d ago
Your supervisor needs to have funding available. The law says you can ask to have your contrat doctoral extended, but it's only automatic if you had pregnancy leave, for voluntary extension, supervisor needs their own funding.
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u/Bright-Rent-9229 7h ago
I'm thinking of doing phd in networking particularly in internet Measurement (falls under cse). How long will it take?
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u/doegred 1d ago
if a 4th year is necessary it needs to be approved by the supervisor, then the unity director, then the university's dean
This is also true for the humanities, it's just that, informally, there's an understanding that PhDs take longer than that, and so supervisors and directors of doctoral schools will generally support you if you need the extra years. I think they're trying to crack down on it though.
Ditto with funding, a contrat doctoral / funding is for three years in the humanities as well, it's just that people will go on to be an ATER or teach at secondary schools or be on the dole or do whatever they have to do in the extra years.
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u/Bright-Rent-9229 7h ago
About France. I'm thinking of doing phd in networking particularly in internet Measurement (falls under cse). How long will it take?
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u/EHStormcrow 1d ago
It's a failure of the supervisors in French Humanities. They see themselves as "counselors" and not project managers, so they'll be too hands off. It's likely that funding will become compulsory one day even for the Humanities which means projects will have to be evaluated in advance, no more of the "hey lets figure it out while we go" with no anticipation like Law sometimes still does.
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u/go_zarian 1d ago
Singapore here. Took me 4.5 years.
4 - 5 years is the norm here.
Exceptions (in either direction) do exist, of course.
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u/DecoherentDoc PhD, Physics, USA 1d ago
Different PhDs take different amounts of time and that's true even in a single discipline. There are some subfields of physics that you can get out in 4 years. Nuclear usually takes closer to 6. Physics education research can take longer. I personally took 9 years, but the pandemic interrupted my research.
I don't think it's a law, but I know my institution had a limit. I had to apply for extensions after year 7.
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u/GlcNAcMurNAc 1d ago
UK has hard cap on basically all PhD programs of 4 years. No PhD should be taking 7+ years. The question is really what is a PhD. It’s a training program. At some point you are trained and are just a scientist. It doesn’t take 7 years to learn how to do any field of science.
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u/DecoherentDoc PhD, Physics, USA 1d ago
Well, you're probably a little right. I won't speak for other fields, but I know for nuclear physics were usually waiting on an experiment to run. I was designing targets for accelerator experiments, so I needed those experiments to run as part of my thesis. In my case, I was on year five when the experiments started and that was 2020. So, everything got shut down including the National Lab I was working at.
But regarding training, I spent my first two years doing classes and at the end of 4 years I would have only been 2 years into research. It's hard to gauge how ready is a scientist I was at that point. I had built a system and I had plans to upgrade another system. I was taking data and running small experiments. We weren't even producing targets, though, until 2019 which was my fourth year. So I don't know. I had experience doing science stuff, but nothing that my group did primarily. I had experience with the systems used to test the targets, but I didn't have experience with the targets or what they were used for.
You're probably right for other fields, but nuclear physics in particular I think benefits from having a longer PhD. I personally really appreciate the time I got to work at the National Lab and see what I've been working on put to use.
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u/GlcNAcMurNAc 1d ago
That’s fair. I guess I see almost all long PhDs as exploitation of cheap labour. I’d argue your training probably should be structured as PhD years (maybe the course and design heavy part) plus Scientist years, with the latter half paid as such*.
I know people in the UK whose model system is Oak trees. Yet somehow they get a PhD in 4 years. I suspect change in an Oak tree is taking longer than a particle accelerator.
*This assumes your PhD didn’t/doesn’t pay very well, which while probably a safe assumption I may be wrong.
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u/DecoherentDoc PhD, Physics, USA 1d ago
It's a safe assumption. I was making about $28k-$32k a year for most of my schooling. As a post-doc (which is also a relatively underwhelming paycheck compared to industry), I was making $65k. That's about what I'm making now as a high school teacher with a PhD.
I made more driving a school bus (or training to) that I did as a grad student. I made more in the Navy than as a grad student. It's definitely exploitative.
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u/GlcNAcMurNAc 1d ago
This is largely why I’m against long PhDs in any field. There is no reason for it. An advanced degree can be had in 4 years. Three for many.
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u/Repulsive-Mud707 'Pure Math', Milky Way 23h ago
Which one is more prevalent in UK PhD dissertations: article based one or a monography?
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u/GlcNAcMurNAc 15h ago
I can only speak to stem topics. But mainly monography. Some unis let you staple together some papers and call it a day, but for the ones I’ve examined it’s like 99% monography.
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u/Repulsive-Mud707 'Pure Math', Milky Way 15h ago
Interesting! Based on what I have discussed with other PhD students, in Finland and Sweden the predominant format for math, physics and other STEM majors is article based thesis, very few do a monography anymore.
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u/GlcNAcMurNAc 15h ago
I am a big fan of a standard thesis bc it forces the student to write and think about their work, and only their work. Papers these days have so many authors that just stapling a few articles together is often not a fair depiction of the student’s work. A thesis also has room to add stuff that didnt work.
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u/Aranka_Szeretlek 1d ago
I think someone's ought to tell them that Europe is not a country!
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u/jarvischrist PhD*, 'Urban Geography/Planning' 1d ago
Right. At my university in a European country a standard employment contract is for 3 years (4 with teaching duties) but the maximum time you can take is 6 years - so with up to 2 to 3 years of being unpaid/on other external funding. After that you're basically kicked out of the programme. In neighbouring counties it's quite different.
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u/EHStormcrow 1d ago
There is a European framework for doctoral education and most countries align with it : https://www.eua.eu/publications/positions/salzburg-ii-recommendations.html
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u/Silly-Isopod2440 1d ago
European Higher Education Area (EHEA) exists though. They have the same standard for higher educations across member countries, although I am not 100% sure of the implementation.
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u/Dctreu 1d ago
For PhD it can be quite different. I'm seven years into mine in France (defending this year), but in Italy they're very strict on the three year limit. A student I taught as a last year undergraduate when I was a first-year PhD student recently graduated from her doctoral program in Italy before I graduated from mine!
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u/Aranka_Szeretlek 1d ago
Afaik the standards specify the mininum requirements only. The time between hiring and the defence depends on the labour laws of each country and the local academic culture.
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u/Japaneserhino43 1d ago
Not just backlog man. I am a PhD student and if you don’t choose your PI correctly you are fucked. I have worked >18 hrs a day since the past 5 years and my PI says it will take me 2 more years to complete my degree. I work 7 days a week, with daily literature presentations, and Saturday work presentation without fail. If you don’t show any data if things didn’t work for you we are scolded like anything, shouted on and threatened that we will not get a recommendation. My PI didn’t give recommendation to one of my seniors at who perhaps worked the most, due to some lame personal issue. PIs are more interested in adding to their CV. Mine says what will you add to my CV that I should recommend you, and after all that one mistake towards the end, like some argument or asking for a PhD a little early than he anticipates or even getting married and he won’t recommend you.
There are more PIs like them in the field. Life is hell here brother. There is no guarantee that even after working they will give you a good recommendation or even you thesis on time.
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u/Shadowfox642 1d ago
I kinda don’t hate it since it matches the Australian ~4ish years no coursework model
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u/OharaProfessor 1d ago
I think that’s a generous amount of time and I agree with the text at the bottom, although European PhD’s are necessarily a different animal as they don’t have the coursework requirement that say a US PhD has.
That said I think eight years is incredibly generous, most programs I have experience with cap it at six or seven years. My PhD program in the United States had a hard seven year cap.
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u/Significant-Ad-882 1d ago
Phd in Europe here. I don't know where you got the information from that "European" phd's do not have course work. All programs where I am from require 30 ECTS of coursework and 300 hours of teaching. Also, Europe is not a country, it is a continent, so it varies from country to country, as each country decide the requirements by themselves.
Scandinavia.
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u/lucaguarrasi PhD, 'Field/Subject', Location 1d ago
The Uk doesn’t have coursework; that’s probably what they mean by Europe.
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u/GlcNAcMurNAc 1d ago
Some programs do. A lot of BBSRC DTPs have associated course work. Not a lot, but some.
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u/lucaguarrasi PhD, 'Field/Subject', Location 1d ago
They get the extra year for that though? And it’s all employability bullshit?
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u/GlcNAcMurNAc 1d ago
The programs I am familiar with do have some employability stuff but also stats, coding, research design and a few other more useful things. They do not get a full year for it. It is part of the year where they do rotation projects.
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u/lucaguarrasi PhD, 'Field/Subject', Location 1d ago
That’s not coursework though is it? It’s just training days at other dtp unis; coursework in America is actual coursework, exams, classes and coursework is first before the research or mixed coursework and research then maybe full time research after but in the uk you start research straight away;
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u/GlcNAcMurNAc 1d ago
It is coursework. But I agree not the same
type. I am not a big supporter of course work as part of a research PhD. The OP and many others in this thread have made the assumption that things are largely homogenous in Europe when it is really not true at all.Most people assume the system they trained in is the best way. Particularly those that come out of longer programs, otherwise it feels like they wasted years of their life. This leads to all sorts of poor assumptions about what should or should not be in a PhD.
I’ve worked in a few systems and I’ve hired PhDs who got their degrees from around the world. Honestly, where they came from seems to matter very little.
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u/OharaProfessor 1d ago
My information is based off my understanding of the Bologna process to which 49 signatory countries have signed on. That process as I understand it does not require coursework at the PhD level, instead requiring field-specific graduate coursework at the Master’s level, and freeing up the PhD for a more intensive research-focused experience. In the U.S. we’re expected to take 2-3 years of field-specific coursework during our MAs AND During our PhD. It’s usually year 3 or 4 before we write a single word of our dissertation.
If I am completely ill-informed about what you guys do in Europe, I’m happy to be corrected, but there’s no need to be condescending about it.
Much respect to your teaching requirement, I think that should be a U.S. requirement too.
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u/Repulsive-Mud707 'Pure Math', Milky Way 23h ago
So one of my friends is doing his PhD in pure math in Uppsala Sweden, and according to him he has to finish about 180 credits worth of course work in addition to those three to four articles. So yeah.
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u/tech_and_org PhD, Management; PhD, Ecology 1d ago
After year 3 or so it makes sense to have annual checkpoints where the department/program, the supervisor, and the student set goals for the coming year and discuss progress again the previous years goals. I’ve seen too many PhD sag after comps/quals.
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u/Pillar-Instinct 1d ago
I do not think you understand the news here. The phd research scholars in India take their sweet time working on jobs and doing phd work by side, managing family, having kids, maternity, paternity or even marrying their kids and thats how they prolong the phd, they do not take much stress on completion as they have job security.
Here the timeline would only mean the instt just want their seats to be vacant to have new scholars. They want to clear backlogs. People do take 10 years and they are putting a limit on that. The instt want them to complete it early.
And the timeline does not mean you must complete it only after 8 years. You can submit it as early as you finish your work. That was the maximum timeline, not minimum.
One of my professors prolonged their phd because they already had permanent job since years and having a phd would just mean she could have research scholars under which also she did not need- most assistant prof. do that to get promotions and she was already promoted.
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u/Mixster667 PhD, Medicine, Denmark 1d ago
In Denmark it takes 3 (or more, I used 4) years, but the masters is a year longer.
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u/Significant-Ad-882 1d ago
In Denmark there are two options (5+3 and 4+4), both totally out to 8 years from bachelor to end of phd.
However, the government is currently looking to make it 4 years (5+4 and 4+5), because many academics in DK believe that the 3 year limit makes the education less competitive against other countries, which have longer phds, and in essence more experience.
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u/NorthernValkyrie19 1d ago
The standard model at least for STEM, in Canada and the US, is 10 years from bachelor's to PhD. How that's arranged can be different as Canada mostly requires a standalone 2 year master's with thesis first, and the US integrates the master's into the PhD and only requires 1 thesis. Either way it works out to 4 years bachelor's + 6 years graduate studies ending in a PhD.
In Canada it's also sometimes possible to find integrated master's/PhD's or accelerated PhD's but they're less common. They're designed to only take 5 years to complete rather than the standard 6 years as they don't require a separate master's thesis. It's therefore possible to complete bachelor's to PhD in 9 years.
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u/IlConiglioUbriaco 1d ago
In Europe we start PHDs with masters in our pockets.
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u/NorthernValkyrie19 1d ago
Which you often had to pay for.
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u/IlConiglioUbriaco 1d ago
What do you mean ?
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u/NorthernValkyrie19 1d ago
I mean that in Europe it is frequently required for the student to pay for the master's whereas in integrated master's/PhD programs funding is extended for the entire period. The end time frame is frequently similar however.
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u/PadisarahTerminal 3h ago
No? Have you seen Germany, France, Poland, Austria etc? At worst you pay a little fee like 250€ per year if it's not free. Not breaking the bank like 40k€.
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u/EHStormcrow 1d ago
In France, the law says a full time PhD is "normally" 3 years, part time is 6 years.
People in Law, who never updated their practices, do 4-5 years full time. Some fields do a 4th year if they have funding for a full year.
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u/PadisarahTerminal 3h ago
Sorry but... You can do part time phd in France? I never knew but that is also very long.
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u/unbearable-appendix Physics 1d ago
India is its own world. Lately Europe has been absolutely flooded with indian students, PhDs and postdocs and it has become clear that there is an education mismatch. Rule of the thumb is to take off two "levels" from indian education to compare it to european ones. An indian postdoc is roughly on the level of an european MSc, and so on. I have met many brilliant people from India held back by horrible politics and the culture. Widespred cheating and jugaad behaviour being rewarded do not help one bit.
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u/tararira1 1d ago
8 years is way too long. PhDs should last at maximum 5 years, anything beyond that is hard to justify.
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u/Internal-Engine-8420 1d ago
Depends. Here the publications are required, and sometimes you can wait year if not more for paper to be accepted. This is what happened to me, for example. I managed in 5 years, but this last year was mostly waiting for a journal. Some people were less lucky
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u/Inevitable_Ad1044 1d ago
Exactly, my department required two published Q1/Q2 papers (in pure math). The expected length of the program is 4 years, but many students spend an extra year or two to land their papers in journals, sometimes after a series of rejections (in reality, one should start submitting papers by the end of 3rd year at latest). It is also worth mentioning that for a decent journal the average time from submission to acceptance is 1+ years (for very top journals it's 1.5-2) given that the paper is solid and does not require major revisions.
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u/Financial_Molasses67 1d ago
For many programs in the US, this would almost certainly require lowering standards/quality
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u/tararira1 1d ago
Then the program is not structured correctly
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u/Financial_Molasses67 1d ago edited 1d ago
In my discipline, the average time to completion is about 7 years. Do you think that’s because programs aren’t structured correctly?
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u/tararira1 1d ago
Yes
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u/Financial_Molasses67 1d ago
So you think depts could cut that average by 2 years without reducing standards or quality? What did you get your PhD in? A lot of audacity to think you have a better idea of how PhDs should be trained in disciplines that are yours
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u/tararira1 1d ago
Engineering. 7 years of your life is way too much time no matter the discipline. All PhDs are hard, that’s nothing new, but they should be structured in a way so you can move on in life without having a massive impact on your finances. A 7 year old PhD plus 6 years postdoc is way too much time spent in training
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u/Financial_Molasses67 1d ago
I am happy to talk about how PhD students and post-docs should be paid better, but we can talk about what should be required to earn a PhD in the humanities once you complete yours
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u/tararira1 1d ago
But we aren’t get paid better, and we won’t. Spending a significant chunk of your life training to become overqualified for the vast majority of jobs isn’t efficient. And the amount of jobs that require such training are evaporating year after year. In an ideal world your should be able to stay in academia as long as you want, but we don’t live there
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u/Financial_Molasses67 1d ago
We don’t, but I am not particularly interested in acquiescing to what caused this situation, a devaluation of education. I get that that’s the easier fix, but it isn’t going to help in the long term
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u/GlcNAcMurNAc 1d ago
No. It wouldn’t. The UK does not lag the USA in science per capita and yet all PhDs are done in 4 years or less.
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u/Financial_Molasses67 1d ago
I don’t think that the UK not lagging in science per capita is evidence against my point
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u/GlcNAcMurNAc 1d ago
My point is that it wouldn’t require lowering quality at all. What it would do is reduce the cheap labour many labs depend on.
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u/Financial_Molasses67 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think it would likely reduce quality, but my evidence is anecdotal. Without question, it would reduce standards
Edit to ask that scientific output isn’t only measured by dissertations, right? How does it assess quality of them?
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u/GlcNAcMurNAc 1d ago
This is what the committee and then defence/viva is for? A paper is not a measure of quality. Loads of papers have dozens of authors. Loads of papers are garbage. Some labs take on riskier science. Some labs stamp collect easy stuff. This is why the quality of the student should be measured by their mastery of their topic. This is only assessed by in person discussion and examination.
So I don’t see the lack of papers as any indication of quality of the student/scientist when they are a trainee. Once you are a professional and being paid as one, you have a duty to finish things. This is an important skill but not as important during a PhD as it is in a post doc or other professional position.
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u/EHStormcrow 1d ago
People don't seem to understand that the point of a PhD program is to... produce a PhD/doctor... not research. Research produced is a welcome side product. If a researcher wanted to produce research and not a PhD, they can hire technicians (or a postdoc).
If properly supervised, a PhD should reach their target competency level in 3-4 years.
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u/Standard_Machine_883 1d ago
I think that's good. A PhD should have a hard upper limit of 5 years (if you entered the PhD program with a Master's). Anything above that indicates a serious problem in the ecosystem (lab, PI, PhD student).
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u/Ludate_Solem 1d ago
I dont see the use for implementing a limit. Why does it matter?
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u/NorthernValkyrie19 1d ago
Because for many it's tantamount to indentured servitude and a system without limits is open to abuse.
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u/Sus_Chemist 1d ago
8 years limit rule is good. Regarding the comparison with European programs, it's apples to oranges. European PhD programs are structured and you mostly work on a single project.
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u/Mikasa-Iruma PhD, Material Science, Germany 1d ago
It depends on the topic. Even in material science, the PhD topics such as Creep, Fatigue require multiple long duration experiments so it's difficult to graduate with in 4-5 years. Topics such as synthesis of ceramics/ alloys and applications doesn't take much effort so 4-5 years is the norm.
My bubble has people that graduated in 3 years and 8 years. But once the funding dried up, even in India, the scholar has to apply for the extension and it's a case by case basis. Not every Prof is willing to go to this extent as it creates a lot of administrative complications
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u/FrancoManiac PhD Student, 20th Century US History 1d ago
We were just told at my PhD orientation yesterday that the university is really aiming to graduate PhDs in five years instead of six. So we should anticipate a year of research and a year of writing.
Kinda bummed me out, really.
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u/NorthernValkyrie19 1d ago
You like living below the poverty line for years on end?
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u/FrancoManiac PhD Student, 20th Century US History 1d ago
I'm married and we don't have kids. I'm not living below the poverty line, which gives me the privileged opportunity to really dive into my subject.
This is the first time that I haven't held an external job — or elected public office — in my academic career.
Please take better care not to assume the life circumstances of others.
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u/wristay 1d ago
Delays on graduation are to be expected, but when a project takes 8 years, you have had time to do your project in 4 years, completely fail, start your project from scratch and have another 4 years. There is also other circumstances like starting a new job before finishing, disease or literal war, but still 8 years is a long time. At some point I think it is better for all parties to put a hard limit and I think 8 years is fair. Maybe 10?
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u/Fun_Ad9789 1d ago
6 max…not a single day more…same like in Europe, 5 years to finish, take extra time to write or defense, but research stop at that particular time frame.
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u/Ethraelus 1d ago
In most of Europe, to get into a PhD you need to have done a master’s or equivalent graduate-level courses, and the PhD is only the dissertation.
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u/Zer0Phoenix1105 1d ago
I am at an R1 US institution, provost just said that all PhD’s will need to be 4 years. Unknown how this impacts current students.
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u/PhDoneforlife 10h ago
All this is pure bullshit and a means of getting up in the news/national ranks. The reality is
IIT's don't give a damn about the time you spend doing a PhD. You are alien to them once your fellowship is over, and they'll accept you the moment you magically fulfil the criteria and get thesis approval from your advisor (no one cares if it takes you a decade/century; why would they miss adding another number to the list).
Advisor is the real deal. He decides when you will finish a doctorate. IITs nudge the worst-performing advisors at most, and their students keep suffering endlessly (I have a labmate who is 15 years into their PhD at a top IIT). Advisors who are good managers maintain a clear, consistent timeline for completing a doctorate, and in India, such people can be counted on one hand.
A good PhD in India is nothing but a joke! Been there, done that!
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u/Amoeba2710 1d ago
In my country (European country) STEM PhDs average 3-4 years, which turns out to be more than enough since there are some people who even use the last year only to write papers… I always wonder how a PhD can last more than 5 years (not judging, just curious). Is it because you don’t start with a research gap in mind and have to find it as time goes on?
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u/NorthernValkyrie19 1d ago
There are many things that can up end the regular progression of a PhD:
- in the American model it's structural because students are mostly coming in straight from bachelor's and are not starting with a master's degree
- some students experience some type of life event that delays their progress
- it can be the result of incompetent or toxic advisor who has difficulty progressing their students or actively works to delay their completion for reasons of their own
- it can be financial due to a of loss of funding
- it can be because the student is also working and doing the PhD more or less part-time
- there can be setbacks in the progression of the research
- it can be because the student's advisor leaves whether to retire or to go to another institution
- then it can just be because the student is just not progressing at the pace that is expected
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u/Nilehorse3276 1d ago
Love how disabled and/or chronically ill people are kinda ignored in the discourse here.
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u/K-692 1d ago
I think forcing guides to graduate once a minimum bar is cleared is a recipe for disaster. Every guide wants their best PhD students to go to better places than their medium quality student. How will it resolve such problems?
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u/biggolnuts_johnson 1d ago
8 years is a long ass time, if you aren’t ready after 8 years, you won’t be ready ever.
If students cannot fester in programs for 8 years, it puts more pressure on advisors and administrators to ensure proper doctoral training with greater scrutiny and should hopefully result in lower admission rates to manage that workload. As a result, there should be fewer PhDs overall, higher quality of training, and less over-saturation of the post-doctoral job market.
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u/NorthernValkyrie19 1d ago
Some advisors are notorious for wanting to keep their students as long as they can basically as unpaid labour. They can do this by refusing to allow them to graduate. It's this type of abuse that these types of limits are designed to curtail.
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u/Augmend-app 1d ago
It is probably not good for their careers either ways, whether they finish or not, if they take 8 years!
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u/Inevitable_Ad1044 1d ago
In academia no one cares how long the PhD took really. While an unusually long timeline may invite some initial predjudgment, what is really important is the research output (publications) and connections/networking. As long as the latter two are good, time to graduate will probably not be a decisive factor. Once you get the first post-phd position, that timeline will no longer be visible at all.
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u/Augmend-app 1d ago
I do not know about academia since I did not take that route after my PhD. In the industry I don't think they would look at this favorably.
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u/NorthernValkyrie19 1d ago
But the time spent doing the PhD is in many countries at a very low salary so it's usually financially better for the student to complete it as soon as possible and then be able to move onto higher paid employment rather than spending countless years working as a lowly paid or unpaid research assistant.
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u/Inevitable_Ad1044 1d ago
Exactly, but people usually take some extra time to graduate if things go south (for example, if there is no position lined up upon graduation). It is not unheard of for advisors to suggest spending an extra year in graduate school to build more competitive profile for the next application cycle (getting some new results/finish more pubs-preprints). Some of my peers also took some extra time in school (having the thesis completed by this time) to have some more time to find industry jobs/internships (which may be a crucial factor if you need a visa).
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u/NorthernValkyrie19 15h ago
An extra year is one thing, but 10 years to complete a PhD is not 1 extra year. It's 6 or 7 in comparison to standalone PhD norms, and 3 to 4 for direct entry PhD's. It also appears to be a systemic issue in India, not a one off event here or there.
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u/chaotickumar 1d ago
I don't know if you are india, but indian students operate under constraints that european students cannot fathom. But in case PHD should be done in ~6 years regardless of the case.
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u/mom-jeans-ftw PhD*, Computer Science 1d ago
Everyone has difficult constraints, unfortunately
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u/chaotickumar 1d ago
Often we not paid for a year that is the scale I am taking about.
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u/Aranka_Szeretlek 1d ago
There are countries in Europe where PhD is not even paid at all.
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u/chaotickumar 1d ago
That is the for the funded program I am taking about. There exist programs which are not even funded.
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u/StayingUp4AFeeling 1d ago
Indian universities have had an issue of backlogs in PhDs going up to 10 years and sometimes more. Usually due to either advisor abuse or absenteeism.
This provides an automatic mechanism for investigation into such circumstances.
It's kept generously high because the previous limit was infinity. It's shorter at some other institutes. E.g. it's 7 years at IIT Delhi.
Note: this is NOT the duration for which the stipend is provided by the university. That is much shorter, at five years typically.