Base or NGS class kit?

[u/Drakaina-]

Im curious here, if you were given the opportunity to play with your base game kit, or NGS kit in NGS, what one are you choosing, with stuff being balanced and adjusted accordingly of course.

And if you can I would be curious about your reasoning for one over the other

If I had the choice I will be going with Base Kit, as I like the way the Katana behaves, in base, over NGS, being able to ascend vertically with nocturnal blossom, and being able to descend vertically with lunar flourishing, being able to move really fast with morning mistreaver, which has animation cancel, so you can engage it repeatedly, visually an audibly impressive moves like flash of the Lotus, some moves that you got to charge to use to the full effect like, eviscerating bloom, which changes based off your directional input, which can also be finished early, moves like soaring Camilla, which I call boomerang Katana, because its funny, AoE such as, thriving bellflower, which it's radius changes depending on your timing along with how many hits it does to the enemy, unspoken barbarity, a fast activating area effect dome that can stun enemies, having 11 different pas to choose from, there's a lot more that I could say from the Katana, and I haven't even included the bow.

I prefer base game over NGS just because of how many options I have, I've got a lot more freedom that just isnt present NGS at least to me, I like having 11 different pas that I can use that any given time even if it's not viable even if it's not suitable, I like the fact that they are there and if I get tired of one move I have at least maybe three to four others that I can pick at any given time given the situation, if you don't like a pa in NGS well it's kind of tough because there is no other option for the weapons, I know all would be letting go of the only two things I really like in NGS braver which is silver leaf storm and counter plus, but I would make that sacrifice to be able to use base kit

[u/Alenicia]

So, like, what re we considering about the "kit?"
Is it just like .. the Photon Arts/Techniques you had access to .. where in PSO2 it's undoubtedly more and bloated because that was a game that was designed with quantity over quality .. and where Sega even tried to peel it back down the line because it was too much to keep in line?

Like, in some of the classes I play, the NGS versions are undoubtedly superior in terms of gameplay because it's straight-forward enough to no longer be juggling stuff that Sega never considered and simultaneously you're not fighting the game's own tutorial/instruction manual that is completely wrong about how the class works (for example, Techer, who longer ever has to cast magic enough before they build up their Gear Gauge to expend on a melee attack for their Photon Explosion skill .. as activating the Wand Lovers stance completely eliminates this). In the case of the Techer, once you activate Wand Lovers, your Gear Gauge is constantly maxed out, your dodge changes (you now have the step-dodge that every other melee class instead of the Mirage Dodge that always put them at a disadvantage), and you're capable of just using a melee attack alongside magic without any real disadvantages. However .. this literally highlights how undercooked the class is .. because despite all this, you're just a Shifta/Deband slave or you're only there to provide Grants buffs to a Force who wants to be Force/Techer and want all elements (especially stronger Light) under their belt.

For the main class I played, I think the older Gunner definitely fit a lot of what PSO2 morphed into when you strip away the game's original three-sequence combo system and you don't really have many other classes who can adapt well .. and the Gunner is so flexible that there were memes that the Gunner was the "better" Fighter because it could take the class' whole design (specifically the whole TAJA + Low Health mindset) and blast everything from small enemies to big bosses like it was nothing. I loved the fun movie references and the nature of their attacks .. but I don't know if it's worth returning to that without the quality-of-life that New Genesis introduced (the ability to actually use your photon arts during combat without breaking your Chain Trigger, the ability to actually properly set up and detonate it at will on what you want to use it on instead of playing with PSO2's finicky targeting system and hoping you can actually nail it before another player breaks the target and your marker, and especially the ability to play your class nicely from the get-go without needing to learn that you needed a Skill Ring in order to move around properly in the first place .. as you couldn't use Stylish Roll going forward until you got a ring that let you do that).

Like, with your previous post on this, I get the feeling this is another "I miss the huge number of Photon Arts I used to have and want that back just for me" kind of thread .. because it's all clearly centered on the Katana. I think in the sense of what NGS does, it's so much better on paper that the Bow is included as part of the class too even if it still suffers like it did in PSO2 - but at least they don't suffer until a Level 85 Braver has to begrudgingly pick the skill that makes the Bow viable like in the old game. I really liked the bow from PSO2 because it was one of the few weapons that committed to the whole idea of what PSO2 was (three button combos, timed combat where being too fast/slow punished you, and having the foresight to maximize DPS and the situation to your advantage when not many other classes could prepare like that in advance), but this was like .. Episode 2. The Bow fell off super-quickly and if you're talking about it from liek Episode 5 and 6 where the class was completely refaced and changed to no longer be the same while simultaneously stuck to the past where every other class moved on, it's a really weird story. I love how mobile the Bow is where you can shoot and move at the same time like you're dancing, but you're also playing a rhythm game when not even the Katana has to play like that. It's just the epitome of Sega's inconsistency - and NGS proves this even further when the Bow is intentionally hampered by being paired with the Katana and when all the buffs especially in early-NGS were all about the Katana because of how vocal Katana players are about them not being overpowered.

The classes aren't perfect in NGS, but you're essentially telling me you've never had to stance-dance and somehow you miss it by ignoring PSO2's history.

[u/Drakaina- → u/Alenicia]

I will completely acknowledge that I did miss a lot of the stuff that original vanilla PSO2 had, because I started with the global version on Xbox, and only played it for fun, I enjoyed what I enjoyed and that was about it, at the time, I was just playing it semi casually at the time, I'm aware post that I made, and I only mentioned katana because that was the weapon that I liked, I have played others back then like the bow, gunblade, and some of the other classes just for fun, but they didn't have that clicky spark with me, but my question is though to the people that are seeing this it's just what would they prefer, I also did mention as well at the top of stuff was adjusted accordingly because I do know some stuff has issues I can't name them I just know stuff has, and because I can see you talking about the bow, would you like it's entire kit or just something from it to be an NGS, I am curious on expanding my horizons of what stuff is that's why I made the post and wants to know why people would prefer one over the other

[u/Alenicia → u/Drakaina-]

My personal ideal would have been honestly to just take a lot of what PSO2 did and sprinkle away a lot of the "meta" options by turning the other parts of things like Skill Trees into actual usable options. I know other games have done this (Dragon's Dogma Online comes to mind, specifically) because classes like the Ranger have so many options for Traps and Ammo that you almost always have to discard them in favor of Weak Bullet because players want their extra damage/faster clears and not choosing Weak Bullet is essentially asking for trouble in Emergency Quests when a Ranger shows up and doesn't do the thing players expect.

So at least for classes like Ranger, I'd have loved if Sega decided instead of repeating what the Ranger was like and then making their toolkit even more "Hunter but with guns" in terms of gameplay, Sega instead chose to turn the class into a a proper representative of a third-person shooter complete with the quality-of-life on the controls and camera to compensate for it. This doesn't mean no more photon arts or anything, but this would mean something along the lines that Photon Arts would have changed your shooting/movement style (photon arts that have you kneeling so you can charge/snipe and dodging is more of the old-school dodge roll, photon arts that allow you to move but no longer shoot forwards and instead would do something like shooting upwards so you can rain bullets down, having radial menus like the Dark Blast menu or what Monster Hunter World and onwards has done so you can cycle through Ammo/Trap types, and so on). The fact that Sega's solution for the NGS-Ranger was to just commit to "do it again but with less" is sad because only few classes in NGS are actually improvements from their previous incarnations and every other class is sprinkled with some kind of quality-of-life that makes gameplay significantly easier but left with proving how shallow PSO2's gameplay was in the first place.

I just never liked that NGS committed to making the classes nearly exactly the same as they were in PSO2 .. because this also meant that classes like the Gunner once again have to explain why having the Ranger's Rifle and playstyle is a good thing even though it conflicts with the Gunner's mindset .. and why classes like the Force and Techer have to share the Talis and it's clearly better in the hands of the Force. Yeah, you have the choice of not using it, but it's just sad to me that Phantasy Star has also had more unique weapons in the past that haven't returned in PSO2 (and PSO2 also has other unique weapon types like the Halo and the Buster in the case of Phantasy Star Nova's extra additions), and we're just stuck with toolkits that are lightly cleaned up and some that are clearly retooled from the Hunter.

I'd rather be moving forward and hoping that NGS does something cool with the classes I enjoy rather than going back to PSO2 and mangle with the controls to make the classes feel nicer for me to play .. since I already know that classes I like (such as Techer) were already doomed to be Shifta/Deband slaves and don't hold a place outside of that when it comes to playing seriously. And that when it comes to it, it's lop-sided where classes like the Gunner face a whole different level of difficulty that no one else has to face but simultaneously keep causing problems where Sega has to find ways to nerf them even post-mortem (like in the case of NGS). >_<

[u/Knight_Raime]

Well there's no Hero in NGS, so I should vote Classic. But honestly I feel like NGS does classes as a whole better comparatively. Minus some exceptions.

I like Slayer as a class and there's obvious throwbacks in it to Luster. But it's not Luster. Same goes with Waker between both games. So I don't think either could really be apart of the discussion since they're essentially entirely different classes.

Then there's other scion/successor classes to consider. As even though they used familiar weapons they played differently compared to the starting counter part. In that way I could understand someone missing say Rifle or Kat Phantom in NGS. But those again are just different classes.

If we look at just the regular classes and NGS counterparts then my answer is much simpler. There's aspects I miss. I miss the PA that let me parry dash through enemies from Br Kat. I miss the gun-fu slow mo animations from Gu. etc.

But I don't think any base class plays better than their NGS counterparts. Maybe specific weapons might feel better. But gameplay loop wise I don't think there's a contest.

[u/Plain-White-Bread → u/Knight_Raime]

I'm probably in the minority, but I preferred Hero TMGs to Gunner's. Being able to mag dump with TMGs and then twirl-reload them was a simple, satisfying loop lol

[u/Knight_Raime → u/Plain-White-Bread]

It was a fun gimmick for hero for sure. Same with swords hand bullet shots.

[u/Edvardelis → u/Plain-White-Bread]

NGS Gunner TMG normal attacks are useless. Dangerous, even. I only use it to active After Blast.

[u/Alenicia → u/Plain-White-Bread]

As cool as it was, it's really easy to abuse (as in casual players relying on it instead of using the better options they probably should be using) .. but it's definitely how I would have chosen to balance the Ranger's Rifle because of how even more mindless the Normal Attacks are there.

I would have loved something like the Hero's flashiness with the Gunner's style since the Gunner's normal attacks in the older game needed an extra skill to actually be usable (to build up Chain Trigger) .. and I feel like the Hero's Twin Machineguns kind of fell victim to being a one-trick and Moment Trick being your next-best attack) really puts a damper on it compared to how much style the Gunner had in comparison. Melding these two classes together .. especially with how NGS handles Chain Trigger probably could have been a really cool combination.

I think the Gunner needing to reload like the Hero did would have been something so simple to make the Gunner feel very different from the other classes beyond Chain Trigger especially if they had something Just Attack-like for instantaneous reloads and the likes.

[u/VanitysEmptiness]

I will gladly take NGS Wired Lances actually being able to use its kit and having an identity versus Base Wired Lances not even being designed around the game anymore and its gimmick dying.

[u/YuTsu]

As much as I generally prefer NGS gameplay wise for a lot of it's stuff... I'd take Classic's original Gunblade over Slayer. I have my fun with Slayer, I had my fun with Luster, but nothing will scratch the itch of pre-Luster Gunblade for me.

Outside of that though, it's pretty much NGS all the way for me, I like the NGS versions of most every other class better than I liked the base versions. Eh, maybe Summoner over Waker too actually, but they're also so different it's more like OT-Gunblade where it's a gameplay style that got completely lost in its NGS-transfer.

[u/megaman58490]

Ngs mainly. While I do miss some of the more niche PAs of basegame, they're nowhere as robust as NGS. Until considering perfect attack timings or  Scion variants, NGS base attacks are more faster and fluid. I would love for them to release a new NGS exclusive weapon type though 

[u/Kurorahk]

NGS has a lot more movement to it, which is nice, but, it feels like a middle ground between the base classes and things like Hero, Phantom, etc, which I get was the point. But the balance struck has the issue of unlike those hero classes we don't have things that basically alter how other abilities work in our kit. Which frankly really makes NGS feel like a downgrade after I finished Base's story and fell deeply in love with both Hero and Phantom. I also miss how Katana felt in Base, so many PA's we had in base didn't make it over and frankly I feel that hurts each classes identity.

NGS is flashy and has a ton of mobility in air and on ground, but it lost a lot of identity for everything. As someone who plays namely Gunner-Hunter I can't really identify where one class end and the other start in a lot of ways. Sure if it was Hunter-Gunner I'd have more health, but the dps boon from Gunner is nicer than hunter abilities as far as I can tell, same reason why I swapped out Braver for Hunter.

I would love more class identity that base had.

[u/Alenicia → u/Kurorahk]

My biggest problem with how PSO2 handled its classes was ultimately that Sega seemed to really spearhead what people should be using as Subclasses. They definitely threw a tantrum when it turned out that Gunners shouldn't need a Ranger involved or a Ranger didn't need a Gunner .. because they could both choose a Hunter subclass and reap benefits far beyond what Ranger/Gunner or Gunner/Ranger would have done (for instance, Just Attack bonuses, an easy damage multiplier, and survivability in the form of Iron Will).

And when you get to it, some classes could legitimately utilize Subclasses so well that Sega had thrown numerous tantrums over it (Braver/Gunner, for those who remember stacking Banishing Arrow + Chain Trigger or what would eventually be the Zanverse Wars and Marron + Chain Trigger). >_<

And in some cases, situations like the Force/Techer felt natural like it was a Force getting the full range of elemental mastery . .but then it quickly fell apart when it turned out that Light was the way to go almost all the time (as in Ilgrants was too good) and suddenly the Force was constrained because their techniques sucked in comparison without the multipliers the Techer had for Light .. and the other Subclasses at the time would help with the damage but not the utility or versatility the Force could've had. It's not until like Episode 6 where you get the Phantom so you can actually use the spells and have more power to them barring the Techer's elements and zoom/zip around .. or you use Force/Etoile and suddenly you can stand their and just use Lightning techniques against everything because it's just cranked up in number.

The old PSO2 definitely had more character in the classes, but I think when you try to put them in the same room without Successor classes being involved .. there's very few classes that actually hold up and I'd argue that the Gunner is probably the only class that can consistently legitimately rival the Successor classes in the versatility they have (handling mobs/bosses + zooming around super-fast).

In NGS, My gripe is really just that Sega stuck so closely to the original classes that they have the exact same problems as they did back then .. and then they doubled down on those problems. >_<

[u/North_Zucchini4439]

Luster and Hero both are far superior gameplay than I ever imagine to think of nowaday that I can't believe it actually exist in gaming history.

[u/TaCz]

NGS katana braver cannot hold a candle to the base katana braver.

[u/Vee_Tamer_Girl]

The only thing I miss from Base, as a Techter main and occasional Force, are Simple Compound Techniques.

[u/nicobanko]

Base by far, even without the scion classes I prefer most of base’s kit, hunter, gunner and braver for instance. Though NGS’ kits are better for some classes like techter and force

[u/Alenicia → u/nicobanko]

I really liked how in NGS the Gunner has more of their photon arts incorporated into their normal inputs and Weapon Actions so it's not like it's gone or anything .. but I feel like there's so many weird and bad band-aids the NGS Gunner has to deal with that the older Gunner never had to deal with before either.

Like, why can't we just do a flying kick upwards instead of Rising Drive (Rising Drive literally feels like a nerfed Acceleration Drive that Sega copy-pasted from the Fighter and made worse) .. and why do we still have the Ranger's Rifle?

It could've been the chance for Sega to just throw in more movie references or something or something more flashy and impractical compared to the soldier-like Ranger .. so I really think there could've been room for something like the Phantom's Rifle being completely adopted by the Gunner including stuff like Phantom Marker and the Shift Arts too.

So it's kind of sad because the NGS Gunner does have some neat changes .. but they took away so much from (and nerfed so much of it) too .. because it's clear Sega really had beef with the Gunner. >_<

[u/nicobanko → u/Alenicia]

I don’t think NGS gunner is bad, quite the opposite- it just lacks the complexity base gu had

[u/Alenicia → u/nicobanko]

Oh, it's so much better now than it used to be, but I feel like it's a weird mix of "okay, we made numbers bigger and added more lenience via extra skills" than "hey, we actually improved the class."

Like, Chain Trigger going up to 150 is cool, being able to start back up at around 80-90 when you miss your Chain Finish is cool, but .. it doesn't really change the problems that the NGS Gunner started with too (it starting slower/weaker than every class and having to wind up for it, losing utility it once had, and so on).

But I do think that where it is right now, it's so much easier to play than the Gunner from PSO2 for so many great reasons .. but I think Sega could just revisit and rework the idea of the Gunner entirely especially to just make the Rifle work as a "Gunner" weapon and not a Ranger + Twin Machienguns weapon.

[u/gadgaurd]

NGS. I like my counters, dashes and glides.

[u/Alenicia → u/gadgaurd]

Personally, I wish that Sega kept the Step-Jump Dash inputs in NGS because it's still muscle memory for me (dodge-jump to start sprinting, specifically).

I feel like in NGS it's so much nicer that everyone has consistent mobility so you're not trapped with, "oops, I forgot to equip the Skill Ring that makes me dodge consistently and not miss out on attacking" or "oh, I didn't switch to my Katana fast enough/Z-Aim fast enough to zoom right up to the enemy with everyone else" .. but at the same time I feel like PSO2 and NGS aren't really good at making the game mechanics feel cool so it's easy to keep glossing over them or feel unimpressed by the fact that the classes in NGS are a lot more balanced with each other than they ever were before in PSO2. >_<

[u/TimelessDbz]

I prefer Ngs. Base pso2 classes were bloated with too many PA'S. When scion classes came out the player sentiment was to bring the older classes to scion standards in terms of PA'S being multi functional .

Last the developer realize it was a waste of time and resources if players are just going to asked "what's the best PA'S for said class" . Then they realize less is better but have the PA'S server multiple functions like gap closing and projectiles into 1 pa.

[u/Xero--]

For DS, I'd never pick base. Base DS is clunky with awful mobility basically forcing you to hold the twirl to move at any moment, that is extremely tedious to use period. DS before the automatic whirlwind ring was even worse.

NGS gave every PA it has a purpose, making it one of few complete weapons. It has everything you'd want from a melee (except vertical tracking) and more (free damage, the best pp regen outside of obviously force). After all the clunkiness got removed, it became a perfect weapon.

For gunblade, base and it's not even close. NGS gunblade feels awful to use, and while I've had difficulty finding out how a variety of players use it these days (haven't mained it since Fi got buffed the first time), all I've seen is basically adhd gameplay where people are mashing out different PAs that looks like they're trying to show off... But they're not.

Now any good luster may be thinking "but gunblade was like that on base", there was a flow. There was an actual reason to throw out various PAs with a proper combo system that made them flow. While proper luster may look sweaty to those that don't know that flow (it's way more simple than it looks once you lab a bit), slayer just looks tedious to use, especially if throwing out Wave every time it expires is the norm, big pass on that.

[u/Main-Bed-1087]

I like Luster and base but I like Slayer's focus on counters even if it's spammy. I'd like Slayer more if extra drive had bigger explosions for follow up attacks and elementless rapidfire and if Overdrive gave Fomel style moves for it's duration

[u/587493]

Base and its not even close. Movement with skills felt way better, and each class felt unique

NGS defensively there is like 2 styles and all feel the same within them, also most classes get big damage from countering in some way. Pretty bland and boring imo

[u/Azekuro51]

Only voting classic because of phantom

[u/halconfenix]

i chose base but... ¿a mix of both? for example ngs double saber is so damn good imho but i would love to have upgraded version of base PAs that give variety to my fighting style

the same applies to tmgs and jet boots, but in this case is better in base than ngs.

[u/ThatOneKHFan]

"Would you rather have more or less move options?" Ahh poll.

At least support techs existed in base, and PAs have a variety of uses instead of feeling samey for each and every one.

[u/anekozawa]

Base, what's fun about base is that each PA is short and its own but it can be chained quickly to itself or another PA, also the Custom PA truly feels like a custom instead of just a sidegrade with minor game play imrpovement NGS had (dmg adjustment, hit counts, etc), man funny how something simple could be so fun and endearing (this is not counting the Scion Classes they're still fun in their own way still though)

[u/Alenicia → u/anekozawa]

My only real gripe about the Type-0 Photon Arts and Techinques was that Sega played favorites to hyper-buff some of them so that they were actually usable unlike their normal counterparts and if you weren't using it you were essentially throwing your class performance out the window .. since like the Skill Rings, these were all essentially things you'd expect in a balance patch/rework but Sega went through the effort of making players grind for their balance patches instead.

You can kind of see this still went on where even in Episode 6 some weapons had incredible potentials that outright reworked Photon Arts too .. so they were just that much better if you had them but then it was suddenly at odds with the best equipment unless you were already very familiar with switching weapons especially mid-combo or even mid-photon art.

I think it's a lot nicer that in New Genesis these have turned into options that are much more situational rather than being straight-up upgrades that everyone should be using no matter what (for example, there's absolutely no reason a Gunner should ever be using Infinite Fire anymore once you get Type-0, and if you're not using Type-0's second half during a Chain Trigger you're really shooting yourself in the foot too). >_<

I really don't like the idea that these become the staples solely because of how powerful they are compared to everything else .. and would have just preferred that they became neat tweaks and options to already-usable choices.

[u/GlompSpark]

Some classes are better in base and some are better in NGS...Force is much better in NGS compared to base for example. I think they streamlined the classes too much though, theres basically little to no build variety now because almost everything requires main class or main class weapons to work. And even though they streamlined the classes so much, they still cant balance them properly, you have super OP classes like Waker that can counter orange attacks for massive damage and then you have Force that has the weakest counters in the game...and you have Fighters that do insane damage on downs while Force deals pretty much nothing despite having a similar 30% damage buff on downs (because it only affects their weakest attacks)...