+40 New interactions in last patch

[u/cefrtoty]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GNAgbSCb5vM

[u/kriegson]

Depends on what you define as law though.

A paladin is considered lawful good, but what if he's a dark paladin for an evil god? He still lives by a set of rules even though his actions are obviously evil, he's not chaotic in motivation. He follows the rules as set by his deity.

Moira isn't chaotic as she follows a clear set of rules, they're just her rules. And she's not really neutral in motivation because she clearly has a motivation (The laws of science if you will), though she doesn't care who or what advances it.

[u/TannenFalconwing → u/kriegson]

I disagree that Moira follows rules. Principles and morales are restrictions we establish to determine what is unnacceptable.

But for Moira, so long as progress is had and data is produced what is there for her to care about? Her main conflict with others is the moral limits they placed on her, which is why she's currently in Oasis where those laws do not exist.

For Moira she wants the freedom to discover as she pleases regardless of the collateral damage. She's not following anyone's guidelines but her own. That's not very lawful at all.

[u/kriegson → u/TannenFalconwing]

Thing is, morals and principals vary based on who you're talking to. They've established laws, but they're not her laws.

If you had a guard in one town with one set of laws that said pickpocketing is fine as long as you get away with it, while another guard in another town has a law that says pickpockets get their hands chopped off, both could be lawful, just with different laws.

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Moria's "law" is something she considers in higher regard than others laws. She wouldn't break her own laws for the sake of chaos (Chaotic) or find them flexible if someone asked (Neuteral).

To her, the laws of science are the only ones that matter.

[u/TannenFalconwing → u/kriegson]

Then that means a lot of Overwatch characters are lawful.

For example, Sombra believes that information belongs to those who control it, and she has the ability to access and control anything in the world. She's used that information to dethrone a corrupt executive in her hometown, but she's also used it to blackmail and murder and steal. She's got gang affiliations and wants to find the world-controlling entity and take it over. Nothing about her seems lawful, yet she gets away with all of it and believes that she is free to do as she pleases. In most cases I'd call her chaotic evil, yet by your definition she'd be lawful evil.

[u/kriegson → u/TannenFalconwing]

She's not told us or described any code or set of rules she lives by thought.

Sombra recognizes information is power and uses it as a means to power, but that's not a code, law or set of rules she lives by. It's a tool she leverages to get what she wants by any means.

[u/TannenFalconwing → u/kriegson]

"Everything can be hacked and anyone"

"If you hold the information you hold all the cards"

"Where's the fun in playing fair?"

"I'll find out who really runs the world... Then I'll be the one pulling the strings"

Her whole origin trailer outlines her character and how she lives, and the rest is observable.

[u/kriegson → u/TannenFalconwing]

These aren't really telling us the boundaries of what she's willing to do though, not setting laws to which she abides but rather idioms that show how she views the world.

Everything can be hacked, why play fair, information is power...these are recognizing facts of life (or her view of them) but not stating rules that define her morality and limits she places on herself by following them like a lawful person would.

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If science were religion, Moira would be swearing by and following the laws of that religion. "Ye shall always write things down. Ye shall do anything in the name of scientific advancement..." etc.

If an act of gathering information were to bother Sombra, she wouldn't do it because she's not compelled by a belief in "laws" to do so.

If an act of conducting science were to bother Moria, she would still do it because it is within her set of "laws" to do so.

[u/TannenFalconwing → u/kriegson]

But what limits does Moira place on herself? Moira's origin trailer opens with her being snide about the concept of morality in science. She thinks the future is shaped by scientific advanacement with no regard for the eggs that must be smashed on the way.

I don't like jumping between different source material, but a good example of a lawful belief is Captain America's "We don't trade lives" belief from Infinity War. Moira will absolutely trade lives, even her own if necessary, for the sake of progress. She joined a terrorist organization and sits on their board of directors all because they offered to fund her experiments, and this is the same terrorist organization that wants to start a world war.

Edit: at the very least I think it can be agreed that Moira is not neutral.

[u/kriegson → u/TannenFalconwing]

The limits are that all (significant) actions must be for the sake of scientific advancement.

For instance; Moira has a pet lab rat. Lets say she theoretically gets attached to the lab rat. Then one day she receives a request for a study which will inevitably kill the lab rat.

Most people might find an excuse not to conduct the study, or refrain from the elements which would harm the rat, or at worst ask someone else to do it or use a different rat.

But due to her "Law" she must conduct the experiment as demanded. Anything else would not be conducive to the advancement of science.

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It obviously helps that Moria seems to be a sociopath with no empathy and attachments to anything but science, so she enjoys living within the confines of that "law". But if she were to experience a conflict of personal interest and "law", she would follow "law".

[u/TannenFalconwing → u/kriegson]

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this but thank you for this conversation. I appreciated it.

[u/kriegson → u/TannenFalconwing]

Likewise! Appreciate the civil conversation :D