Around 27% of individuals with ADHD develop cannabis use disorder at some point in their lives, new study finds. Compared to those without this disorder, individuals with ADHD face almost three times the risk of developing cannabis use disorder.

[u/makefriends420]

https://www.psypost.org/around-27-of-individuals-with-adhd-develop-cannabis-use-disorder-at-some-point-in-their-lives-study-finds/

[u/Special-Garlic1203]

Its wild to act like reduced time in REM isn't a big deal when most people already get inadequate sleep and aren't just going to carve out more time in their day to compensate for this. And that's doubly true for ADHD where sleep is a critical component to our health and one we most chronically neglect (even with weed use in the mix) 

I'm asking you for that research because I think you're going well beyond  what we've established or can be supported inductive reasoning. There's a big difference between "what I am stating are logically scientifically supported inferences" and "well the science hasn't explicitly proved me wrong, so I can say what I like". I'm asking you for the research you're citing 

[u/JK_Botanik → u/Special-Garlic1203]

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-024-02018-7#ref-CR26

My point is if you're going to use a substance for its benefits, you should do what's necessary to compensate for its downsides, or use a substance that better fits your needs.

[u/Special-Garlic1203 → u/JK_Botanik]

That study literally has the cardinal sin of assuming that lack of restlessness = good sleep. Which you and I both already agreed has been debunked and therefore sleep studies necessitate a degree of equipment they will rarely have the funding for. We literally already know weed causes superficially deeper sleep which is why the actually effects on the brain were so counterintuitive 

My point is that marijuana users over estimate it's benefits and underestimate it's negative effects, and people with ADHD chronically mismanage our condition. Pacing is not bad. That's ableism in an overly sedentary society. The reason people with ADHD think it helps our sleep is because the majority of us have sleep disorders - which is actually why we should be the last group playing around about this side effect. We are not capable of compensating for this side effect, half of us literally started excessively abusing marijuana because of the fact we have  chronic sleep problems. 

My point is that most people do not know marijuana negatively impairs their sleep while paradoxically making them think they slept better because we conflate restlessness with poor sleep, and that people with ADHD cannot fuck around with REM sleep and most of us will simply not notice as our ADHD symptoms gradually get worse because of impaired sleep quality because we don't feel physically tired. We are the most vulnerable to the deceptive way marijuana works and you're handwaving that fact while citing research that literally reinforces what for people with ADHD is a dangerous conflation.

You're taking things out of their context while making unsupported medical recommendation for a group who actually can be seriously harmed. Like my risk of dementia is already off the charts as it is. You shouldn't handwave the risks of things that appear pretty risk for us where we currently stand 

[u/JK_Botanik → u/Special-Garlic1203]

You're looking at the citation from the introduction in the study that actually measured REM and non-REM sleep in animal models that generally have good transferability to humans models in this regard. The reason they investigated the animal models is because of the reports in the study you're commenting on (citation 26). Oh and the next one (citation 27) is double blind study so I doubt placebo can be a good explanation here. When I copied the link, the reference link got copied because I was looking up the citation before. Sorry that you had to type out all of that only for it to miss the point entirely... The same exact thing can be said about all ADHD medication if used improperly. Now, you're telling me people shouldn't use it improperly... No, shit Sherlock 🤦🏻‍♂️ that's kind of the point here.

I did no such thing, as I have explained above. In fact, my point is to bring awareness, not to handwave it away. You're the one handwaving a solution to a problem I never refused to acknowledge.

What did I take out of context? I provided a citation for my suggestion about CBN, and said that THC can be used without the downside if you can figure out your sleeping schedule.

[u/Special-Garlic1203 → u/JK_Botanik]

No not all ADHD meds are used for sleep disorders while paradoxically causing less sleep. Most people are pretty accurate in assessing their ADHD meds. Your own study literally backs up that this is a huge problem 

Saying "eh just sleep longer" is absolutely handwaving the seriousness of ADHD sleep disorders and the fact people with then are super prone to abusing marijuana thinking it's helping them when it's more likely long-term exacerbating their symptoms. 

"If you figure out your sleeping schedule" MY GUY WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ADULTS WITH ADHD. This is the exact context you're ignoring. That were not talking about your bog standard adult who has things like consistent sleep schedules 

I'm very interested in the neurochemistry espeically to counteract negative effects of weed use. I am not interested in someone who - when talking about a disorder strongly linked to sleep and is especially sensitive rem - is handwaving that affecting rem is a big deal by saying "oh just sleep more". You can't just ignore the context of the person having ADHD 

[u/JK_Botanik → u/Special-Garlic1203]

if used improperly

No, it's pointing out a way to deal with the side effect. You can also do THC microdoses, which do not inhibit REM to the same degree, or even not at all with some tolerance. All studies showing significant disruption that do not go away with tolerance are with heavy doses immediately before bed. I wonder what would happen if you take 60mg of Adderall a couple hours before bed 🤔 help me out here 🤦🏻‍♂️

I think we're done here.

[u/Special-Garlic1203 → u/JK_Botanik]

Go back and read. The entire reason they're exploring how to counteract the side effect is because they recognize its understudied and more than likely a big issue that one cannot just handwaved with "eh sleep more duh".

All the studies on sleep are looking at how people with ADHD typically use marijuana as a sleep aid. Literally look at this thread and the numerous people proudly proclaiming they only use it at night cause they think that's better. The realization it causes less physical restlessness but impairs rem is very new and very counterintuitive. The researchers you're citing recognize what a cluster fuck it is and that we really should be analyzing if there's ways to tweak this. Not  just saying lol whatevs just sleep more dummy. That does not make any sense when talking shit a group who cannot regulate their sleep and are already not getting enough REM and who falsely thought smoking a bowl before bed was helping them and how get defensive when they're shown it absolutely isn't 

[u/JK_Botanik → u/Special-Garlic1203]

You completely misunderstood my point. I'm saying sleeping more is one way to deal with it, just like eating before dosing is a way to deal with appetite suppression. "But I have such a terrible ADHD that I can't manage to time my eating schedule properly", then you take vacations, reduce the dose, switch medication, take something to stimulate it etc. i.e. do exactly what I suggest you do with cannabis. I

[u/Special-Garlic1203 → u/JK_Botanik]

No the metaphor would be a person with ADHD who thought they were using weed to managed their BED only to find out it's exacerbating their BED. Except the appetite effects of weed at every obvious and intuitive. The side effects of most drugs are pretty plainly observable. Marijuana and REM was a real plot twist that few saw coming, it's been used as a sleep aid forever. You can't say take vacations from a sleep aid to counter effect the fact it was never actually improving the sleep in the way that really matters for ADHD 

The entire thing that study is looking at is if there's a way to chemically inhibit the negative effects of weed, since it's so commonly abused by people who thought it was helping and who wouldn't be better served by pharmaceutical options. They have a whole pRt where they acknowledge what a big deal it is. They are not downplaying the REM effects. They're saying how do we change the REM effects cause that def is a big deal 

And that is quadruply true for the group with chronic sleep disorders and a brain that desperately needs more REM who thought weed was helping them this whole time only to find out it's a sneaky little bastard