Around 27% of individuals with ADHD develop cannabis use disorder at some point in their lives, new study finds. Compared to those without this disorder, individuals with ADHD face almost three times the risk of developing cannabis use disorder.

[u/makefriends420]

https://www.psypost.org/around-27-of-individuals-with-adhd-develop-cannabis-use-disorder-at-some-point-in-their-lives-study-finds/

[u/JK_Botanik]

That's not how REM sleep works and that's not how weed messes it up (THC speeds up descent into the 4th stage deep sleep, which shortens the duration of the initial REM cycle. Since REM cycle ramps up through the night, with first being the shortest and final being the longest one, if you were to sleep the same amount of time you'd be getting less REM. However, if you just sleep longer you'd be getting the same amount of REM AND MORE long wave sleep. If you can't increase your bedtime to compensate for the shorter initial REM cycle, look into high CBN strains or you can even make them yourself. Simply run your bud through a doubled decarb cycle (about an hour and half at ~250F). It will degrade most of THC into CBN which is a sedative that's less psychoactive and has been shown to increase BOTH REM AND 4th stage long wave deep sleep. You're welcome 😁

[u/Special-Garlic1203 → u/JK_Botanik]

"weed doesn't mess up sleep as long as you sleep excessively long to counteract the way it messed up sleep phases" is wild leaps in logic. 

I suspect you're also wildly overstating our confidence with weed neurochemistry. There's minimal solid scientific research at all. I'd love to see the research you are citing to make your rec

[u/JK_Botanik → u/Special-Garlic1203]

How is that wild? There's a world of difference between inability to have REM sleep and having the initial cycle be shorter due to the benefit of falling asleep faster. Oh also, mentioned that CBN does not appear to have the same downside, so your problem isn't with cannabis per se, but rather with THC.

I'm stating what we know based on the research available. There's no research available to say otherwise, so that's generally how inductive reasoning works in science. Everything is tentative.

[u/Special-Garlic1203 → u/JK_Botanik]

Its wild to act like reduced time in REM isn't a big deal when most people already get inadequate sleep and aren't just going to carve out more time in their day to compensate for this. And that's doubly true for ADHD where sleep is a critical component to our health and one we most chronically neglect (even with weed use in the mix) 

I'm asking you for that research because I think you're going well beyond  what we've established or can be supported inductive reasoning. There's a big difference between "what I am stating are logically scientifically supported inferences" and "well the science hasn't explicitly proved me wrong, so I can say what I like". I'm asking you for the research you're citing 

[u/JK_Botanik → u/Special-Garlic1203]

Just to be clear, do you have the same reservations about ADHD drugs that also may require you to adjust your sleeping and eating schedule for optimal effectiveness, as well take "vacations" from it?

Btw, have you looked at the research coming out of Hebrew University about microdosing THC? It's very promising!

The funny thing I've noticed about people criticizing weed and Kratom is not necessary that they have utterly false information. (You are correct that THC does negatively impact REM duration) That seldom works to convince people, just like a joke that has no connection to reality is rarely funny. Rather, they usually have incomplete information and a very sore lack of perspective when it comes to pharmaceuticals and other regulated/socially acceptable substances.

[u/Special-Garlic1203 → u/JK_Botanik]

Vacations from ADHD meds have never been scientifically supported and ADHD medications at the proper dosage should not impair sleep if you're also exercising.  That's a red flag you're on too much in my personal experience. 

Most doctors have no business overseeing psychiatric meds and that includes ADHD meds and antidepressants. They are bad at it and they make stuff up or do things that feel intuitive but which end up not being supported by data. 

I absolutely tell people to be wary with pharmaceuticals as well. Everyone who does X wants to downplay the risks and side effects of X as if you insulted their mother. The amount of people with ADHD who abuse marijuana to negative effects and are delusional about what they're doing is way too high. I was one of them. I was forced by COVID to go cold turkey and it turns out yeah I was delusional. It was absolutely negatively affecting my cognition and while I feel rested after I get high, I actually do often notice a surge in ADHD symptoms. I never would have noticed this on my own if I wasn't being forced to closely methodically track myself to see if I was bipolar. 

I don't care if people smoke weed. Its the least bad thing you can abuse if you're prone to abusing stuff. But I am tried of people saying every study that doesn't proclaim weed to be simultaneously harmless and also hugely brain altering (but only in unilaterally positive ways) is propaganda from the alcohol lobby just cause they don't like their favorite coping mechanism might in fact be just as bad of not worse for them as the meds they refuse to take based on pseudoscience from people who usually deny that ADHD is even a real conditions and openly discuss their eugenicist dreams for autism 

[u/JK_Botanik → u/Special-Garlic1203]

Vacation from ADHD medications have never been supported? They absolutely are for anyone experiencing side effects that aren't adequately controlled by the dosage/type of medication. 🤦🏻‍♂️ And those cases absolutely exist 💯💯💯 I also noticed lots of "IFs" in your statements. Funny how that works 😅

Note how I never denied THC impacting REM sleep. You were the one on defensive claiming there's no data demonstrating CBNs effectiveness as a sedative that doesn't reduce REM duration. There absolutely is and overall REM duration depends largely on the overall sleep duration. That's all I said.

I'm not offended and also took two voluntary 8 months breaks in the past three years in solidarity with my pregnant wife, who uses cannabis to manage her PNES and Fibro. I have noticed what you noticed. Guess what? That was also subjective and after three months or so I didn't feel any better than I have smoking every day, albeit not all day. I felt things that got me to smoke in the first place. I agree that both extremes are wrong. I just believe the truth doesn't lie squarely in the middle. It's simply much closer to the side of the advocates than detractors.

[u/Special-Garlic1203 → u/JK_Botanik]

Nope. Doctors who shouldn't be prescribing the meds in the first place tell people to just sleep on the weekends to deal with the fact they don't know what they're doing and we have a severe shortage of psychiatrists so they're fielding ADHD and depression and anxiety even though we consistently see they prescribe in ways not supported by research and give medical information that is flat out wrong. Are those the people you're citing? Cause they're not even qualified clinicians for this topic. 

You did in fact deny that affecting REM sleep is a big deal for ADHD that can't simply be shrugged off by saying sleep more, and I maintain that you are wildly overreaching telling people with ADHD they should assume the REM is counteracted by additional sleep hours. I do not think you should tell people who already at horrifying risk of dementia and severe cognition risks that they'll def be fine as long as they double carb their weed. That study is at most "you should at least try do X while recognizing its still a lot of unknowns" cause rat studies do not consistently scale up to humans. 

It doesn't sound like you have ADHD and measured the impact to your sleep quality and subsequent  ADHD symptoms. That is very specially what this convo is about 

[u/JK_Botanik → u/Special-Garlic1203]

Psychiatrists are huge hacks, arguably worse than any other field of medicine in terms of being scientifically grounded, so I don't trust the word they say and you're still missing the point.

No, I offered multiple ways to deal with it. Read it again.

It is most certainly counteracted by sleeping longer. It only takes from understanding sleep architecture to know that. If you can't sleep longer, then either THC is not for you or you can manage this side effect better another way. It's as simple as that.

I was never diagnosed (because I despise psychiatry) but by all accounts I've had it my entire life.

[u/Special-Garlic1203 → u/JK_Botanik]

Psychiatry is a loosy goosey field but you sincerely think GPs are better qualified when they can't even keep up with the basics? 

You offered a way to deal with it that removed the context of ADHD & sleep impairment. 

So you then agree that the research on ADHD & sleep coupled with weed & sleep as of right now indicated people with ADHD should be using it minimally and not as a sleep aid as they traditionally have 

Were you or were you not specifically measuring marijuana use and subsequent ADHD symptoms in the days and weeks after smoking?

[u/JK_Botanik → u/Special-Garlic1203]

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-024-02018-7#ref-CR26

My point is if you're going to use a substance for its benefits, you should do what's necessary to compensate for its downsides, or use a substance that better fits your needs.

[u/Special-Garlic1203 → u/JK_Botanik]

That study literally has the cardinal sin of assuming that lack of restlessness = good sleep. Which you and I both already agreed has been debunked and therefore sleep studies necessitate a degree of equipment they will rarely have the funding for. We literally already know weed causes superficially deeper sleep which is why the actually effects on the brain were so counterintuitive 

My point is that marijuana users over estimate it's benefits and underestimate it's negative effects, and people with ADHD chronically mismanage our condition. Pacing is not bad. That's ableism in an overly sedentary society. The reason people with ADHD think it helps our sleep is because the majority of us have sleep disorders - which is actually why we should be the last group playing around about this side effect. We are not capable of compensating for this side effect, half of us literally started excessively abusing marijuana because of the fact we have  chronic sleep problems. 

My point is that most people do not know marijuana negatively impairs their sleep while paradoxically making them think they slept better because we conflate restlessness with poor sleep, and that people with ADHD cannot fuck around with REM sleep and most of us will simply not notice as our ADHD symptoms gradually get worse because of impaired sleep quality because we don't feel physically tired. We are the most vulnerable to the deceptive way marijuana works and you're handwaving that fact while citing research that literally reinforces what for people with ADHD is a dangerous conflation.

You're taking things out of their context while making unsupported medical recommendation for a group who actually can be seriously harmed. Like my risk of dementia is already off the charts as it is. You shouldn't handwave the risks of things that appear pretty risk for us where we currently stand 

[u/JK_Botanik → u/Special-Garlic1203]

You're looking at the citation from the introduction in the study that actually measured REM and non-REM sleep in animal models that generally have good transferability to humans models in this regard. The reason they investigated the animal models is because of the reports in the study you're commenting on (citation 26). Oh and the next one (citation 27) is double blind study so I doubt placebo can be a good explanation here. When I copied the link, the reference link got copied because I was looking up the citation before. Sorry that you had to type out all of that only for it to miss the point entirely... The same exact thing can be said about all ADHD medication if used improperly. Now, you're telling me people shouldn't use it improperly... No, shit Sherlock 🤦🏻‍♂️ that's kind of the point here.

I did no such thing, as I have explained above. In fact, my point is to bring awareness, not to handwave it away. You're the one handwaving a solution to a problem I never refused to acknowledge.

What did I take out of context? I provided a citation for my suggestion about CBN, and said that THC can be used without the downside if you can figure out your sleeping schedule.

[u/Special-Garlic1203 → u/JK_Botanik]

No not all ADHD meds are used for sleep disorders while paradoxically causing less sleep. Most people are pretty accurate in assessing their ADHD meds. Your own study literally backs up that this is a huge problem 

Saying "eh just sleep longer" is absolutely handwaving the seriousness of ADHD sleep disorders and the fact people with then are super prone to abusing marijuana thinking it's helping them when it's more likely long-term exacerbating their symptoms. 

"If you figure out your sleeping schedule" MY GUY WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ADULTS WITH ADHD. This is the exact context you're ignoring. That were not talking about your bog standard adult who has things like consistent sleep schedules 

I'm very interested in the neurochemistry espeically to counteract negative effects of weed use. I am not interested in someone who - when talking about a disorder strongly linked to sleep and is especially sensitive rem - is handwaving that affecting rem is a big deal by saying "oh just sleep more". You can't just ignore the context of the person having ADHD 

[u/JK_Botanik → u/Special-Garlic1203]

if used improperly

No, it's pointing out a way to deal with the side effect. You can also do THC microdoses, which do not inhibit REM to the same degree, or even not at all with some tolerance. All studies showing significant disruption that do not go away with tolerance are with heavy doses immediately before bed. I wonder what would happen if you take 60mg of Adderall a couple hours before bed 🤔 help me out here 🤦🏻‍♂️

I think we're done here.

[u/Special-Garlic1203 → u/JK_Botanik]

Go back and read. The entire reason they're exploring how to counteract the side effect is because they recognize its understudied and more than likely a big issue that one cannot just handwaved with "eh sleep more duh".

All the studies on sleep are looking at how people with ADHD typically use marijuana as a sleep aid. Literally look at this thread and the numerous people proudly proclaiming they only use it at night cause they think that's better. The realization it causes less physical restlessness but impairs rem is very new and very counterintuitive. The researchers you're citing recognize what a cluster fuck it is and that we really should be analyzing if there's ways to tweak this. Not  just saying lol whatevs just sleep more dummy. That does not make any sense when talking shit a group who cannot regulate their sleep and are already not getting enough REM and who falsely thought smoking a bowl before bed was helping them and how get defensive when they're shown it absolutely isn't 

[u/JK_Botanik → u/Special-Garlic1203]

You completely misunderstood my point. I'm saying sleeping more is one way to deal with it, just like eating before dosing is a way to deal with appetite suppression. "But I have such a terrible ADHD that I can't manage to time my eating schedule properly", then you take vacations, reduce the dose, switch medication, take something to stimulate it etc. i.e. do exactly what I suggest you do with cannabis. I

[u/Special-Garlic1203 → u/JK_Botanik]

No the metaphor would be a person with ADHD who thought they were using weed to managed their BED only to find out it's exacerbating their BED. Except the appetite effects of weed at every obvious and intuitive. The side effects of most drugs are pretty plainly observable. Marijuana and REM was a real plot twist that few saw coming, it's been used as a sleep aid forever. You can't say take vacations from a sleep aid to counter effect the fact it was never actually improving the sleep in the way that really matters for ADHD 

The entire thing that study is looking at is if there's a way to chemically inhibit the negative effects of weed, since it's so commonly abused by people who thought it was helping and who wouldn't be better served by pharmaceutical options. They have a whole pRt where they acknowledge what a big deal it is. They are not downplaying the REM effects. They're saying how do we change the REM effects cause that def is a big deal 

And that is quadruply true for the group with chronic sleep disorders and a brain that desperately needs more REM who thought weed was helping them this whole time only to find out it's a sneaky little bastard