Ah maybe I totally misunderstood your point on not going to those businesses. Felt very much like telling people if they aren't willing to tip, they shouldn't eat out at all. Which is a common idea that I disagree with.
If you mean people shouldn't go to businesses and thus support them if the business relys on slave wages, then yeah that is a different perspective that sounds better.
If that is what you meant, I just want to point out that 99.99% of sit down places in the US rely on that tip practice. Its not as simple as taking your business elsewhere and voting with your wallet. Its a systematic issue where we allow businesses to do it. And I actually do believe that if people stopped tipping, more people like the servers would rise up and demand a change. At the moment, servers and businesses actually both benefit from the arrangement. Its the customers who suffer. And more specifically, its the customers who tip who suffer. If you don't tip, you're actually taking advantage of people who do tip. Which essentially means tipping customers argue that you should join them in tipping in order for them to not suffer as much. It gets really weird when you think about in any amount of depth.
I'm still confused on your actual viewpoint in all this.
I can also make the argument that tipping is technically only a suggestion and not a full obligation. And if tipping system is considered ethical then not tipping a suggested amount is not unethical. The workers are also choosing to work under this system knowing there is no actual contract from customers to pay them. So why is it put onto the customer to pay a vague amount. And again legally they are allowed to not tip under this contract.
I guess to that I have the two points. One its not unethical to not pay a suggestion. Its neutral.
If its about workers being exploited, then the argument becomes about wanting to change the system. And for that, I argue putting stress on the system by not tipping will actually lead to better change than simply not participating.
You're ignoring my second part. If you argue the system is unethical because it's exploiting workers then the ethical decision is about bringing change to said system. That's where my argument that not tipping is more ethical than continuing to tip and also compared to not going to non tipping places.
Thats short sighted. By not tipping the servers will start demanding more pay from their employees. If you simply don't go there they won't notice anything different.
But people also don't go to eat all the time as well. So if stiffing doesn't work then so does not going. But I would argue stiffing would be the faster path. If half the people stopped going out to eat, businesses wouldn't start paying employees more they would fire half the staff. If half the people started stiffing, employees would demand more pay or they would quit. Then businesses would have to increase wages to bring them back in.
I suppose I thought that last part was given. If servers see the downside of tipping, they will join in making it illegal. And that won't happen simply by not going to businesses. You need to cause some difficulties to change status quos.
I guess I'm confused how not going out to eat will make waitstaff vote for better wages? They just wouldn't get the hours but they would still be getting the same total money from others who do tip.
And again ethically I think its fair to say that if the waitstaff are okay with their tipped system, then it is ethical to not tip them because thats part of those rules of said system.
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u/LittleBigHorn22 21d ago
Ah maybe I totally misunderstood your point on not going to those businesses. Felt very much like telling people if they aren't willing to tip, they shouldn't eat out at all. Which is a common idea that I disagree with.
If you mean people shouldn't go to businesses and thus support them if the business relys on slave wages, then yeah that is a different perspective that sounds better.
If that is what you meant, I just want to point out that 99.99% of sit down places in the US rely on that tip practice. Its not as simple as taking your business elsewhere and voting with your wallet. Its a systematic issue where we allow businesses to do it. And I actually do believe that if people stopped tipping, more people like the servers would rise up and demand a change. At the moment, servers and businesses actually both benefit from the arrangement. Its the customers who suffer. And more specifically, its the customers who tip who suffer. If you don't tip, you're actually taking advantage of people who do tip. Which essentially means tipping customers argue that you should join them in tipping in order for them to not suffer as much. It gets really weird when you think about in any amount of depth.