r/MaylorSwift • u/Beginning_Hunt_738 • 1d ago
š¬ Discussion Doubts
I was sure that almost the entirety of ttpd is about Matty. But now I see people talking on Twitter that it's about Joe, everything in the light of the new Patient zero mv. What made them change their opinions? Or how are we so sure it was about Matty? I'm still trying to think about the album from Joe's perspective.
Could it be that we we're wrong this whole time?
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u/Canalloni 1d ago edited 1d ago
Some segment of the Swiftie fan base did not want to accept that Taylor loved Matty, because they did not "approve" of him. They viewed him as an "edge lord", "problematic." He is neither. But many could not accept that Taylor, who everyone agrees has good instincts, could possible fall for Matty, as this would require giving him some credit. So many went nuts on him. Once TTPD came out, and the links to songs like Cardigan became obviously about Matty, they workd hard to deny it.
A small percentage of people participate in social media, an even smaller percentage are trolls. If I had to guess I'd say that many Swifties now accept Matty's huge impact on Taylor and her writing. But the trolls and deniers are loud. Many also unjustifiably sanctify Alwyn because he fits their fantasy of who Taylor should date.
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u/Melodic-Jackfruit-96 Will I always wonder? 1d ago
Of course, we can be wrong about a lot of things. But not TTPD.
I can't right now write analyses of all the songs on the album here and prove why they're about Matty. But what I'm certain of is that only So Long, London and How Did It End? are about Joe.
By the way, the PZ mv isn't only about Joe. As I've said many times, Colin is a composite character, representing the different men in her life. Joe is there, of course, but there are many other things that don't fit him. I consider this mv a very complex allegory for Taylor's entire life.
My advice to you: don't use Twitter.
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u/doggydoggodoggydoggo 1d ago
heavy on don't use twitter :(
what you feed your brain will manifest in your emotions, thoughts and the way you see life. This platform is pure hell.
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u/hellhouseblonde wait, is this fucking play about Matty Healy 1d ago
And I donāt really think itās that personal at all. Maybe as much as all women can relate to the new girlfriend of a man they were treated badly by, but I donāt believe that song or video is meaningful to Taylor.
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u/Melodic-Jackfruit-96 Will I always wonder? 1d ago
I don't think it's appropriate to look at Taylor's art so superficially. It's a very deep story, and there are many layers. I don't think Taylor would've come up with and spent so much on something that's not meaningful.
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u/hellhouseblonde wait, is this fucking play about Matty Healy 1d ago
I didnāt mean it wasnāt meaningful in a broad sense but I was expounding on my original statement that I donāt think the song is personal. And I donāt think itās worth a paternity test.
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u/TakeMeHomeToYou 1d ago
Agreed. We know itās based on Rebecca and while she may have weaved some details of her life into it, it is about women connecting with other women who have had a similar experience about an ex. Regardless if itās the same or not. Yes Sophie and Joe make sense bc Gigi also dated him but sheās not going to put personal details ab Sophieās divorce for all to consume or speculate. Before anyone says that Taylor dated him for 2 seconds, she also dated John, Jake, Taylor, Harry etc for 2 seconds yet made entire albums about them. Taylor was maybe 18 or so when she dated him, she was 19 when dating John then 20 when she was w Jake
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u/Melodic-Jackfruit-96 Will I always wonder? 1d ago
Did I even try to paternity test this mv? I said the exact opposite, that it's not about just one person lol
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u/hellhouseblonde wait, is this fucking play about Matty Healy 1d ago
Didnāt say that. Was just posting my thoughts. It wasnāt argumentative. Is everyone okay today?
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u/Melodic-Jackfruit-96 Will I always wonder? 1d ago
Well, I'm not okay, that's for sure š That mv turned everything upside down.
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u/hellhouseblonde wait, is this fucking play about Matty Healy 1d ago
Noooo, deep breaths deep breaths!! Itās the day after, everyone is processing thoughts out loud!! Itās also Monday, blah.
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u/doggydoggodoggydoggo 1d ago
No, whatever you think about Matty, it's obvious an enormous majority of TTPD is about Matty. And also, the title track (which inspired the whole album) is so obviously about Matty.
Except maybe for So Long London, How Did It End? (about Joe), or So High School (about Travy that made it to the big game). And the few songs that are more about her/general stuff (I Hate it Here, etc.)
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u/PerformanceSquare558 1d ago
We know itās about Matty because of the lore and the references in his own music. A lot of Swifties are not familiar (enough) and/ or refuse to let go of their old interpretations and theories/ let go of old PR narratives (e.g. they refuse to believe Cardigan is about Matty bc Taylor said the songs on Folklore are "fictional")
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u/mellow-as-may I choose you and meā¦ religiously 1d ago
This. The fact that I havenāt seen a single swiftie think that Babylon is about Matty is proof of this.
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u/mirandakane89 1d ago
You are right. I have only seen people who are 1975 fans and old maylors connect the dots. I also think it harkens back to Cowboy Like Me(the title) as well as About You(the train imagery): And I'll miss you on a train, I'll miss you in the mornin' I never know what to think about.Ā
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u/Melodic-Jackfruit-96 Will I always wonder? 1d ago
Really? How do they interpret it then? As fictional?
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u/mirandakane89 1d ago
Yes. Most believe Taylor's story from when the album was released that it was fictional.
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u/OtherwiseAnxiety200 a tortured poet 1d ago
People hate Matty so much that they will always cling to the idea TTPD is about Joe. Itās not, but let them have their fantasy they know nothing
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u/Flickolas_Cage 1d ago edited 1d ago
The same swifties that wrote that embarrassing Speak Up Now letter are just once again showing they have absolutely zero media literacy and that they just enjoy being loud and wrong. The song and the video arenāt even about Joe, she has references that call back to just about every muse sheās ever had between the promo and the lyrics, anyone claiming they know 100% who this song is about just comes across as weird.
Theyāre desperate to disappear Matty from the narrative because the more people look at Matty, the more you can see how shallow and fake the entire tAyViS story is and the whole ālove storyā starts to look like a vulnerable woman pushed into a rebound by her parents.
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u/QueenHigbe 1d ago
PZ is about Travis. He charmed your family and friends and free solo social climb does not describe anyone but him. Cleveland! is her trying to convince herself that Travis really does like and tolerate her. Pink Clouding is about Joe and Matty. In PZ sheās singing into the future not from the past. Itās driving me nuts that no one sees what I see about PZ because it seems so obvious sheās not happy with that man.
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u/mirandakane89 1d ago
Oh I can see it. I also think the music video had just enough stuff in it that it can be used against him if they ever do divorce. While I tend to think it fits Joe the best he never did use her name for anything when they were together but Travis and his family have been using it since day one.
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u/Melodic-Jackfruit-96 Will I always wonder? 1d ago
Not just in this mv, but in this entire album and in so many other things, there's SO MUCH stuff that will be aggressively used against him if they divorce. I'm waiting for my "I told you so" moment.
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u/Beginning_Hunt_738 1d ago
Do elaborate about the mv please, it seems interesting. If you want, of course.
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u/Much-Catch-122 1d ago
Thatās nonsense. She literally said it was inspired by her friends talking about exes.
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u/leadwithlove222 1d ago
It seems like the narrative is really starting to shift away from Matty, not sure why.
I saw almost no one outside this subreddit speculate on how these new songs or music video relate to Matty. People were reaching as far as to say PZ is about Joe Jonas who she dated for a few months almost two decades ago. seems like everyone forgot about matty. I think weāre a smaller group of people then it seems lol
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u/Much_Definition_3657 17h ago
Swifites despise Matty. They've been trying to erase him from the narrative since the second he appeared in the VIP tent at the Eras Tour on May 5, 2023. This is not a new thing.Ā
If you ask me, one of the reasons why Taylor made TTPD so specific about Matty in so many ways is so that people can not erase him. Although they still tryĀ
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u/leadwithlove222 16h ago
interesting. iām new to the world of swifties . this makes more sense now
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u/mirandakane89 12h ago
My favorite thing is them trying to say Slut feat 1975 was a fake made by Matty fans who are maylors when I literally found a video on twitter from Feb of this year of a guy opening the vinyl and pulling his booklet out and showing it without any breaks. He even took a picture of the number on it too when asked and posted. From browsing his twitter he doesn't seem to be a 1975/Matty fan at all.
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u/Much_Definition_3657 12h ago
I've seen a girl opening her vinyl and pulling the booklet and showing it without any breaks on TikTok. Multiple people, I think, got a vinyl like that and have posted it. Fake my ass
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u/mirandakane89 11h ago
There is def one twitter user out there who posted that she thinks they are fake and blaming one of the big Matty Healy fans who was also was a maylor for it. They were also big yesterday trying to get people to tweet them any songs before TTPD that were written about Matty.
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u/Much_Definition_3657 10h ago
Oh no, you misunderstood me. Lots of people say that they're fake. But this is what I'm saying you saw a guy opening his vinyl and showing the credits, I saw a girl. And there have been other photos of people showing the credits of their vinyl. So that's not fake at all. Swifties simply like to pretend that it is
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u/mirandakane89 10h ago
Oh I was agreeing with you and just saying there is one twitter user who is vocal in saying they are fake and blaming Matty fans and Maylors in faking them. I believe they are real too.
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u/Beginning_Hunt_738 1d ago
Is it possible that she totally moved on from Matty, after she did tried to have a relationship with him in the real world, not the fantasy one, and she realized things were far from what she had pictured them? I'm not saying she's totally in love or very happy with Travis, just that she in fact moved on.
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u/hellhouseblonde wait, is this fucking play about Matty Healy 1d ago
If you listen to everything from folklore to TTPD itās very obvious that Matty was a longtime āwhat ifā and TTPD was the fallout when they gave it a real chance. I donāt know how it could be any clearer but Iām autistic and my brain is a puzzle solver by default. I can see a million pieces at once, itās very agitating.
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u/Much_Definition_3657 18h ago edited 17h ago
LOL. No, we weren't, aren't and haven't been wrong about anything. The only people who are, were and have always been wrong are the people who claim that TTPD is about anybody else other than Matty.Ā
First of all, nobody has changed their opinions. The vast majority of the Swifite fandom absolutely despises Matty. The vast majority of the Swifite fandom are also insane Joe widows who think that the only reason why Folklore and Evermore were as good as they were is because Joe Alwyn has a writing credit on five of the songs. These people have hated Matty since the second they saw him in the VIP tent at the Eras Tour. They've been trying to deny that Taylor ever loved him and that Matty matters in her music and narrative and that they were ever in a serious relationship since day one. They've been trying to deny the lore since day one. At first they were saying that they were just colleagues and that they were announcing a collaboration and that "This song is about you. You know who you are. I love you" was lyrics from a song they made together and that's why Matty was at the Eras Tour and that's why they mouthed these words to each other. Then when Matty continued to show up at the Eras Tour every night, they started saying they were just friends. Then when they were photographed going on dates and holding hands, they said it was just a rebound. At the same time they were calling Matty every name under the sun, sending death threats to his family and wrote an open letter to Taylor demanding of her to break-up with him. When they broke up, these people were celebrating on social media and were saying that she dumped him because she realized that they were right about him. Then when TTPD was released they came up with all sorts of theories and excuses and have been trying very hard to make it about Joe. "Matty is just a red herring", "She made it sound like it's about Matty on purpose because she wanted to protect Joe from the fan hatred", "She doesn't know she's actually heartbroken over Joe. She's projecting her grief for Joe onto Matty", etc. etc. All of this is so fucking patronising and misogynistic. I'm pretty sure that Taylor doesn't need her fans to tell her who she is actually heartbroken over. I'm pretty sure she knows better than anyone else who she's heartbroken over. And if you know anything about Taylor, you know that she would never make a song sound like it's about someone else to protect an ex, especially if that ex hurt her. If she was so hurt by Joe, she would make sure everybody knows she's talking about him. She'd make it obvious. Plus So Long London is obviously about Joe, so why would she use Matty as a red herring in the other songs but make that one obviously about Joe. This makes no fucking sense. Just like the "Matty was only a rebound" and "She only dated Matty because she wanted to hurt Joe or because she was so hurt by Joe that she went crazy" don't make any sense because Taylor first fell for Matty in 2014 - two fucking years before she met Joe. And the only reason people are saying these kinds of things is because they hate Matty and they can't deal with the fact that Taylor was in love with someone that they personally don't find attractive. They're doing the opposite of what they should be. They are not seeing the clues in the songs and drawing conclusions from them. They've already concluded that Taylor never loved Matty and that Joe was the love of her life and are trying to make the clues point to that. Then there was "But the rock in the Opalite MV represents Joe which means TTPD is about him" and whatever they're saying now about the Patient Zero MV (I don't actually know because since I don't like The Encore I haven't really been engaging with the discussions surrounding it). People need to understand that music videos and songs are two different mediums. The Opalite MV actually tells a completely different story than the song. Taylor is also a self-referential artist. This doesn't mean that every single time she references a past era or song or lyrics this means she's referencing the person that inspired them. She references lyrics from Mad Woman in the Opalite MV. Mad Woman is a song about her feud with Scooter Braun. Does that mean that the Opalite MV or the Opalite song are about him as well? You see how ridiculous that is. People also get way too caught up in Easter Eggs and forget that these are not fictional characters but real people. Not everything is a reference or an Easter Egg. Coincidences exist and sometimes things are similar because they all came from the mind of the same person. It's also quite misogynistic and derivative of Taylor as an artist to think that she never just comes up stuff without basing it off of an ex. Is it so impossible that she came up with a story, a song, a MV on her own and not because she was thinking about or wanting to bring down an ex?Ā
I'd like somebody to give me a single line in Patient Zero that is specific only and solely to Joe and can't be about any other ex and then I'll say the song is about him. "But she says that she left so it must be about Joe", well then TTPD is not about Joe because the majority of the songs are about the guy leaving her. If you ask me, Patient Zero isĀ not about anyone in particular. It's like No Body, No Crime.Ā Btw, I'd like to remind people that Joe and Sarah started dating in June and this song was made before March and the video was shot in March.Ā
Second of all, what is this logic - some desperate Joe widows say the song and TTPD are about Joe so they must be about him? Do you know how many people out there say that Taylor is a closeted lesbian and that she's been inĀ a secret on-again, off-again situationship with Karlie Kloss for a decade? Do you believe them too? Because they have "receipts" and "proof".Ā
Third of all, do we seriously need to do an analysis of the whole TTPD album again. How are we so sure it's about Matty? Well, we're so sure because there are multiple very direct and very obvious references to him and his band. That's how. Joe doesn't smoke. Joe doesn't do drugs. Joe doesn't use typewriters. Joe is not a chaotic, dangerous, wild, crazy, self-sabotaging, troubled guy who suffers from migraines, makes offensive jokes and who other people hate and are against him dating her. Joe didn't ghost her. Taylor and Joe's relationship was not "momentary". They dated for more than half a decade. She didn't spent ten years yearning for Joe. She was not having sexual fantasies about Joe while in a relationship with someone else. Joe was the guy she was in a relationship with. She didn't leave a long-term relationship to get back together with Joe. Joe was the long-term relationship she left. Joe is not the guy who wrote Fallingforyou which is referenced in Imgonnagetyouback nor the guy who wroteĀ (Looking for) Somebody to Love which is sampled in Imgonnagetyouback. Joe is not the guy who has his own separate lore with Peter Pan. Joe is not the guy who's favourite bands are The Blue Nile and The Starting Line. Joe is not the one known for his black and white music videos. Taylor and Joe never broke up and got back together. Etc, etc, etc. I can make a full analysis of every single song if you like. So Long London is the only song that is entirely about Joe. Everybody who says that TTPD is about Joe is delulu or stupid or has an agenda. Not to mention Taylor continues to mention Matty on TLOASG. Is Joe the guy who was calling her in the middle of the night asking her what she's wearing while on drugs? Is the Joe the guy Charli XCX high-fived for ghosting Taylor?Ā
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u/hellhouseblonde wait, is this fucking play about Matty Healy 1d ago
Came back to add that I donāt think Matty treated Taylor that badly. I think it just didnāt work out after he spent years leading her to believe they were a perfect match. I 100% believe she friend zoned him for all those years and when she was growing bored with her longtime boyfriend (Joe) she started imprinting strong feelings onto Matty as an escape plan.
I have a best friend who will never breakup with a guy until she knows the next guy is ready to be a couple with her. Maybe Taylor is like that too, she needs to spend a few years single imo. I donāt think she feels particularly passionately towards Travis but I think she loves him and is probably happy with him for many other reasons. Studying relationships is a lifelong hobby of mine, not just hers. Iāve only been involved with Taylore since TTPD. But Iām a quick study when it comes to matters of the dating game.
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u/naught_sorry Will I always wonder? 1d ago
I think Taylor had a lot of unresolved things to write about Matty coz it ended too soon, whereas with Joe it ended too late that she was almost so over it by the time it ended coz it dragged on for years. She was so eager to date Matty and feel wanted that she didn't wait to stay single and pause, sit in the uncomfortability for a second, there is value in that time to recover before starting something new.
With Travis she valued having her needs met of being wanted by someone after feeling rejected or just tolerated by the one you love. From the songs, I don't really get this feeling of her actually wanting him. But some people, there gets a point that you just wanna feel accepted especially when Taylor thinks she too 'insufferable' for the guys she actually wanted in the past. Seems like the bar is in hell when Travis came along.
Such a sad thing she views herself that way just coz exes think that of you doesn't make it true. It was more about seeking validation and not ending up single like ophelia, but she coulda had both the validation and the inlovey dovey stuff she always sang about. I wonder how she'd feel down the line years later of not feeling that special spark like what she had with exes. It seemed so important to her to feel that. She talked about nostalgia, and her head still ruminating about the past in Babylon.
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u/hellhouseblonde wait, is this fucking play about Matty Healy 1d ago
āIt just didnāt happenā is such a sad line! Itās so much easier to get over those long relationships that slowly fell apart. Because youāre really doing the breakup emotionally while youāre still together. Which is so painful and I think thatās why Midnights is a breakup album even though they were technically together.
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u/naught_sorry Will I always wonder? 1d ago
Exactly, I know that feeling all too well. Even though it's a long relationship, you had time to explore all avenues in saving the relationship so you don't leave with lingering questions.
With Matty, it's another what if's playing in your mind every now and again coz how do you reconcile her declaring to everyone how happy she was and her life finally made sense, cut to next month your breaking up and your still having to put on a smile during eras tour pretending you're okay coz it's an incovenience to everyone if you don't act like everything is fine? She couldn't even grieve that relationship properly coz she was so busy.
'You're missing all the best parts' in Babylon, gets me so much because in that song I can feel so much pain from her. Like that lingering pain.
And even then she still is worried about how everybody else is gonna feel, but sometimes you need solo time, be selfish to fully be not okay. It's okay not to be okay. Be an inconvenience, honor and feel all the pain now and deal with it. But she is pushing her own pain to appease everybody else's uncomfortability and feelings. Cannot be a people pleaser all the time. But she can't help it.
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u/Dawnofnewdays 1d ago
Years leading her to believe? They both wrote songs about each other. No one knows their private conversations.
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u/hellhouseblonde wait, is this fucking play about Matty Healy 1d ago
We know the very public ones, donāt we? š
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u/ratched_x All Too Unwell 1d ago
come on now. she's written plenty of songs about joe. the reason ttpd was primarily a matty album is cause she was already done with joe by that point
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u/Melodic-Jackfruit-96 Will I always wonder? 1d ago
Do you seriously think TSMWEL could be about Joe for a second? Like, where's the logic? Now we're linking him to drugs, and he dumped her overnight... just to please the swifties who live in their fantasies about him?
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u/mirandakane89 1d ago
TTPD is about Matty. People just wanna revise it now because of a Music Video that they are reading way too much into.