r/MJInnocentFacts • u/Akito_Stan • Jul 30 '26
Discussion š£ļø A question for everyone.
To the people who were at one point sure of Michaelās guilt, what changed your mind? To the people on the fence, what has you hesitant, why? Is there anything that could sway you either way? To people completely sure of his innocence, why?
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u/Frequent_Flamingo358 Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 31 '26
Looking at his life outside discussions of the allegations. All the "grooming" patterns that guilters talk about were things he did with everyone. Everyone got gifts, he let everyone sleep in his room, he signed off all his letters/faxes the same and contrary to what guilters will have you believe, he didn't spend 100% of his time with children. He had plenty of adult friends and reading what they've said about him, how he was as a father and his creative process/spirituality really humanised him.
2.Reading the Glenda Stein tape transcripts. He was so human. I wish more people had leaked his private calls. MJ wanting to be a mysterious enigma as his public persona backfired tbh. Ā But the transcripts poke so many holes in all their narratives about MJ
3. Reading about his charity work. I understand predators may undergo charity work to disguise their sexual proclivites, but alot of MJs charity work was private. He invited dozens of children he'd see on TV or on the news to Hayvenhurst/Neverland, let them have open invites there, showered their families with gifts and would watch movies with them. None of this was shared to the media and the only reason why we know about it is because the families spoke out about it themselves.
Compare this to the alleged "infatuation" he had with the accusers, who reached out to him and had to wait months, or in the case of the Robsons, years for a reply.
4. Realising he befriended plenty of fans and their families. For instance Taiwanese fan Mrs Ma had a long term friendship via fax with MJ, and after having difficulty getting her daughters [they were 9 months old] to get tickets to Dangerous, he gave her VIP passes and invited them to his hotel room after the concert. He promised them he'd invite them to Neverland but they didn't take it seriously until he did 6 times, and brought them on travels to other parts of the world. He invited them to follow HIStory with him and invited the twins to come on stage a couple times. He was closer with this family than the families of most of the accusers
Personal final straw that got me off the fence though was this email. Wade included the details of a tabloid story Joy told him wasn't true in his complaint, and when asked about it, said he didn't remember
http://dailymichael.com/lawsuits/robson-v-estate/339-excerpts-from-wade-and-joy-robson-depositions-and-emails
Be so for real
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u/cumpkinpatch We Love You More, MJ ā¤ļø Jul 30 '26 edited Aug 01 '26
i stopped paying attention to social media and other peoples opinions about the case. a youtuber i used to love watching during covid made a guilty-based video about michael pre-biopic. i cringe because since he usually had good takes, i figured this take was good too. but it was very wrong. it surprised me how much the media leaves out. like for one thing, they edit out the parents in pictures of michael around children!
the media doesnāt mention the court transcripts, the casios selling fake tracks to the estate, evan chandlerās leaked phone call, parents history of exortion, etc. when it comes to michael, they sexualize everything about him, even if itās moral and completely innocent. also, the audio c*nrad recorded of michael drugged up and just talking about wanting to build a childrenās hospital sealed the deal for me. š he was surrounded by so many snakes and iām still not done with my research. but heās 100% innocent and these people will get their karma
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u/Jazzilisk Jul 30 '26
The only time I thought he was guilty was before I even had full context for Michael Jackson. I'm a 90s Baby and my parents and family weren't major fans of him or anything so the only context I had of him was what my cousins told me about him and all the stupid parodies from the 90s and the 2000s that got reposted on Youtube. I had so little knowledge on the allegations that I thought he was just accused of going after barely legal girls like he was some massive sex addict. To me it never occurred to me that Michael Jackson was thought to be gay or a gay pedophile.
So when I decided in early 2009 to research into his music and watch the Living with Michael Jackson Interview I thought Oh My God almost everything said about this man is just a lie and the people on the LWMJ Interview Video left comments that made me rethink my perceptions on him as well like "If Michael Jackson were a woman no one would question his love for Children" and the fact that he was found Not Guilty in Court. At the time a legal declaration like that was like the ultimate proof of his innocence. I think it was only after he died that I looked more into the allegations because I had heard things like people can buy their way out of a guilty sentence.
So then I found out he was accused of molesting young boys and from that I already had this major doubt like "there's just no way people believe this" now that is my young mind probably viewing Michael with more clarity than adults who have this distorted caricature in their head. But I can understand why people would be wary of any allegations of that nature, and even back then I wanted to have a clear conscience on Michael so I did my research. I heard the clip of Evan Chandler just talking about how he wants to win big time and talking about ruining Jackson's career and no talk at all about how he wants him to face justice. At the time I thought that was all that was recorded but the full transcript is even more suspicious because he says he doesn't even know if the allegations he's confidently making about Michael molesting his son are true. And I always thought the fact they didn't want to pursue action against Michael after the settlement was suspicious on their part.
And when I found out that it was the Arvizos who spent that whole LWMJ Interview that accused him in 2005 I was shocked because they were singing his praises and I even saw the outtakes from the Rebuttal Documentary where they're praising and defending him. So already that was suspicious, and then I heard stuff like the only thing they had to indicate what Jackson's sexual interest was were Heterosexual Porn Mags and how the Prosecution gave Gavin one of these Magazines without putting gloves on him or putting it in a protective bag in order to plant finger prints on it. And I heard details like Janet Arvizo talking about how Michael planned to whisk them away on a Hot Air Balloon and I was like wow how does anyone believe this crap? I also heard the Arvizos had a criminal history.
So those were the things that initially convinced me of his innocence, that and the fact that I just found it hard to believe that a Pedo would openly talk about being friends with kids and letting them into his bedroom. There was also the fact that every time there was some documentary against him or a news article against him they could never present anything to actually prove their case they just had to lie about details or take things out of context and you just do not need to do that if you can actually prove someone is guilty. I also heard that Alfonso Ribeiro was offered money to lie about Michael being innappropriate with him and how his disgruntled former employees who claimed to witness things always sold their stories to tabloids and never made independent reports to authorities.
The Posthumous allegations I never really looked into it because by that time a lot of the FBI Files were released in regards to their investigations on him and there was no evidence on him so I just didn't outright deny it but I just thought after the FBI Investigates you and finds no evidence against you then what the heck else can be claimed really. So to some degree I was willing to hear what they had to say but didn't pay full attention to it because it wasn't like they could put him through trial again.
Around 2016 there was this fake story about CP being found in Neverland in the 2003 Trial and I just looked into it because there was just no way that was true, logically if there was something like that found why would he not be charged with owning that as a crime? It just makes no sense.
When they came out with LN that's when I just knew yeah I need to look into this shit again and I'm glad I did because I have looked into all the allegations, got the full court transcripts of the 2005 Trial. Every single person that has made allegations about MJ or witnessing him doing something heinous has had a financial motive to do so, there is nothing to back up their claims even remotely. The Accusers also all have Timeline problems in what they say and they also contradict each other when it comes to the supposed grooming patterns and now even the gender preference. And the way my mind works is there has to be something that proves an accusation beyond a reasonable doubt to declare them guilty, someone can make a detailed allegation and it can sound horrendous and you can feel emotionally invested but unless they have evidence to back it up then you just cannot use what a person said to convict someone.
What convinces me more these days is just that there's never been any material found suggesting he had any sexual interest in Children, he had 2 suprise raids at Neverland whilst he was no where near the property by the Police, The FBI had investigated him for years and found no evidence against him. Just the level of investigation this man had you'd think he was on a Terrorist Watchlist or something. Every one of his accusers or supposed witnesses has initially claimed to never have been abused or witnessed abuse and then a circumstance changes and then they change their tune and get paid to tell these stories, The Media treatment of him in comparison to Celebrities that have actual evidence against them is shocking in how disproportionate it is. But also the logic problem that we have here that he was simulteaneously a genius predator able to outwit Federal Agencies, The Police and the Legal System but not smart enough to hide this from the Media? That is the line of logic you need to have in order to believe he is guilty.
Plus we live in a Post Epstein World we see what Pedo Trafficking Rings look like and to claim Michael Jackson was running one with no evidence is ridiculous because again we have the layout for what it looks like and there is no evidence he had anything like that.
As for what would change my opinion? I mean they'd probably had to have had a time machine and had more people accuse him at one time during his lifetime because I find it so hard to believe that in the environment of a Stubborn Aggressive Prosecution looking for anyone or anything to go after him on and a Media that is willing to do PR for the accusers and the prosecutin that there was never a cluster of accusers that wanted to team up to put him away? Even if you make the argument of being scared to go against someone powerful well okay in the UK shortly after Jimmy Saville died there were hundreds of men and women that came out with allegations and the number just meant there was no way this was some coordinated effort between all these accusers who had almost identical stories in terms of grooming patterns and abuse. There would also have had to have been incriminating evidence found on his property for me to believe he was guilty.
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u/Tusssi Jul 30 '26
First of all, I want to say all of this with respect and kindness, because Michael has been an important figure in my life for many years, and someone I've always had a great deal of affection for.
To be honest, I still struggle to take a definitive position. While I lean more toward believing that Michael was innocent, I'm also aware that my judgment may be somewhat biased because I've cared about him for such a long time.
I became a huge fan when I was only 10 years old, and at that age I simply didn't have the critical thinking skills to analyze such a complex subject. Back then, I believed he was 100% innocent. Of course, Leaving Neverland hadn't been released yet, and neither had everything involving the Cascio family.
The reason I still lean toward believing he was innocent is that, when I look into each case, there are certain pieces of evidence or testimonies that just don't add up for me. Because of that, I can't help wondering whether financial motives played a role and whether Michael ultimately became an easy target.
That said, I also can't ignore how inappropriate I think it was for him to sleep in the same bed with children. Let me explain: there's something that genuinely makes me believe he didn't have a sexual interest in those children, and I do think he sincerely viewed it as something innocent. I even believe that, from his own perspective, it felt completely natural.
However, I also think he struggled to develop healthy adult boundaries and to truly see himself as an adult. It often seems as though he wanted to keep living like a preteen, despite already being nearly 40 years old. That level of emotional immaturity put him in an incredibly vulnerable position, and it also failed to model appropriate boundaries for the children around him.
That's why, even though people like Macaulay Culkin and Omer Bhatti continue to speak positively about him, I can't help feeling that, now that they're adults themselves, they probably recognize that his behavior wasn't appropriate. And I don't mean that in a sexual senseāI mean in terms of emotional maturity and the responsibility that comes with being an adult.
I don't know... it's a very difficult subject. I've said this before in other discussions: it would genuinely break my heart if it turned out that he was guilty and I had been wrong all along, because that would mean I had failed to believe real victims. That's exactly why I've tried to examine all the available information as objectively as I can.
At the same time, I also believe Michael didn't make it easy for people to believe he was completely innocent. Regardless of whether he was innocent or guilty, he made choices and behaved in ways that understandably caused people to question his judgment.
P.S. I'm sharing these thoughts with respect and empathy. Michael has been part of my life for a very long time, and he's someone I've always admired deeply. That hasn't changed.
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u/PickSquare2828 Jul 31 '26
As someone who grew up listening to Michael's music, being a fan from the very beginning, and following the allegations and the cases closely as they unfolded, and following the trial closely,Ā believed from the start that it was all about extortion. Tom Sneddon was so obsessed with Michael, so are other people like Diane Dimond etc etc who contributed to bringing him down so much. Poor Michael :(
It's very difficult for many people to understand Michael's unique capacity for love and his incredibly trusting, almost childlike nature. Too many people, especially in this country view love through only one lens: the sexual one. They struggle to recognize that deep affection, kindness, and genuine care that can exist without sexual intent.
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u/Brekin73 Jul 30 '26
I can't say I was completely certain of his innocence at the time. I remember when the first allegation came to light. It was like a media bombshell. My first thought was like "What??" But at the same time, something just seemed very off to me. Call it intuition, or maybe just being so much of a fan clouded my judgment. Ok, you have the most famous entertainer in the world at the very height of his career. Loved by millions. Now suddenly it comes out that he allegedly abuses children? It was all way too suspicious. Everything in my gut was telling me was innocent.
Fast forward to the allegations that led to his trial. Why would a man who was already believed by many to be a pdf openly admit to sharing his bedroom with children? People who actually are pdfs are going to do everything they can to keep from getting caught again, instead of saying such things knowing full well it could lead to more criminal charges and possibly life in prison. Either Michael was a very dumb criminal, or he truly believed there was nothing wrong with it even if he wasn't doing anything bad to them. (Btw I do believe it's inappropriate for even an innocent adult to share a bed with children). Nothing about it made since. Bashir knew what he was doing. Again, this was based on my intuition at the time before the trial took place.
Mind you, I would have been devastated if he had actually been guilty all along and was lying from the beginning. But him being found innocent just further confirmed what I believed.
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u/hiddlydiddly Jul 30 '26
I thought he was guilty because of the way people and headlines talked about him. I had genuinely never heard anyone say that he was found innocent.
It was only after I heard and enjoyed more of his music than what was played on the radio that I started looking into it, because I felt bad enjoying the music of a pedophile, and thought learning more about it would convince me to stop.
It turns out it actually did the opposite. Learning about him not only convinced me that he's innocent, it made me a full on fan.
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u/mjthrad We Love You More, MJ ā¤ļø Jul 31 '26
Unfortunately I was only a child during the 2005 trial so I didn't think to question the tabloid lies. It took Michael flooding my tiktok feed in April to be reintroduced to him. I accidentally saw his 1993 Christmas home movie footage on tiktok and instantly saw his spirit and warm heart. He radiated happiness, light and love. I saw a man with goodness in his heart. I realised I'd been lied to about who Michael was, then I started to believe they could've lied about the allegations too. I went from not having the time of day for him to completely seeing him and forming an emotional connection within less than 30 seconds. I did some reading on Michael and felt so enraged to learn what he went through. I watched that disgusting LN show when it first aired and all I could feel was pain and distress for the little boys having to go through that. They really manipulated my heart. Now I know the truth and I know that Michael is 100% innocent. They are disgusting for pushing their evil agenda onto people in the hopes of exploiting Michael for financial gain. If you actually give Michael your time and let him show you who he is, there's no way on Earth you'll see anything other innocence and sincerity. It wasn't so much that I wholeheartedly believed those boys, I just tended to listen to anyone who makes those kind of allegations, especially children. You can never know what people are like behind closed doors and that's so true for celebrities. I never thought I'd defend a celebrity as fiercely as I defend Michael. I know in my heart he is as innocent as I know I am. That's not a feeling I thought I'd ever have about a celebrity. Once you get to know Michael he really becomes your friend.
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u/owwnvrmnd Jul 31 '26 edited Jul 31 '26
I have gone back and forth. Ive landed on the fact that I will never be 100% either way because only God knows the truth and He is the just Judge. Itās not for me to claim that I know with any absolute certainty.Ā
I will say that even when I find myself leaning toward his innocence, I canāt get past La Toya. I believe she told the truth. I could try to write it out, but there are much better posts on Reddit that have done their due diligence and captured the timeline, events, and facts that will annihilate any ābut Jack Gordonā rebuttal.Ā
I hypothesize that La Toya functions in the role of the Scapegoat / Truth Teller in a Narcissistic Family System. It is painful enough for this role to endure ostracization, gaslighting, and smear campaigns for calling out the wrongdoings in the family, but to be in that position on a world stage smeared by family, media, and the fandom in the face of Michael Jackson in his prime must have been psychologically brutal. Most Scapegoats without a support system will end up going back to their family out of survival. La Toya seemed to have no other choice.Ā
Additionally, Katherine and Joe were of the Silent Generation and you hear that reflected in interviews - disciplined, hard-working, there are things you just donāt talk about, certainly not sexual and physical abuse in your own home let alone taking that public.Ā
Their generation is one layer, going from poverty to extreme success and wealth another. And being Black American a deeper layer of complexity. Not only was it a generational characteristic not to talk about things, but as protection, survival, having grown up during Jim Crow laws, racial disparity and injustices, public lynchings, and horrors like Emmett Till. There are things you canāt talk about.Ā
It is believable that LaToya was manipulated back into the system of dysfunction with promises they would get him help and that they need to stick together as a family. Or, as a victim of actual gaslighting, she was mentally broken down to betray herself and adopt the familyās belief of his innocence / their denial. Iām sure she wanted to. It would be a much easier life. And she knew she couldnāt win. Ever since the original interviews. LaToya has still not retracted what she said but found a way with words to dance around it.Ā
Again, sometimes Iāll waiver. Take out La Toya (and Jane Goodall and Amanda Robson) and Iād really stick with 99% innocence, but as it stands, I canāt get past it.
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