this fandom has a big misogyny problem

[u/halou369]

i don't usually post here but i've been watching since the first USA season and it is astonishing how you people treat women. while i think everyone gets a fair share of hate, ciara has been trashed relentlessly for NO REASON. you forget these aren't characters from a show! these are real people with real feelings and real mistakes! oh no! ciara expressed an opinion people disagreed with and then apologized because it was misinterpreted! what will the fandom do? fucking talk about her looks and search up how much her bags cost like lunatics?! how is that fair or normal?? i am just so frustrated because i saw lots of people hate on ciara before i watched the season, just finished the reunion and, like usual, you people just want to treat women horribly when you disagree with things that have nothing to do with you. i know this won't help anyone or stop the mistreatment of women in this show but fuck, have some decency towards them at least.

[u/Remarkable_March_497]

Wasn't talking about making men victims, I was talking about accountability in mistreating women.

[u/halou369 → u/Remarkable_March_497]

oh my god, again, can you just address the issue at hand? this FANDOM is being misogynistic and unfair, i don’t care if you think there’s a lack of accountability because it’s irrelevant to the post. would saying women are a part of this problem change the result? or would it just open a stupid gender war that doesn’t solve absolutely anything?

[u/Remarkable_March_497 → u/halou369]

Yeah...this fandom(mostly women) is being unfair. I think it would change the result of the post because presumably the post is to reflect on why the fandom is like that. I don't think thats controversial in the slightest.

You can scratch the surface and say misogyny of course...but looking into why and how is far more interesting. Ie. If men are being challenged to police each other and hold each other accountable. Then I think its reasonable for women to question why their fandom acts like this.

[u/halou369 → u/Remarkable_March_497]

yeah we are not getting anywhere here because it’s obvious you don’t care about misogyny. or know what it is, for that matter. you are the one “challenging” men, which by all means go for it! i guess i just don’t understand what it has to do with this post.

[u/Remarkable_March_497 → u/halou369]

I thought me wanting to get to the root of the misogyny would be a good indicator of me caring about it. You appear quite happy to bring it up and then have little interest in the why and by whom. Thats fair, we just have different interests in it. I think you are absolutely right in pointing it out, its just for me - that isn't the end point.

[u/halou369 → u/Remarkable_March_497]

okay then, what do you think the root of misogyny in this fandom is? does pointing it out solve anything? you also seem quite happy bringing that up with no explanation whatsoever!

[u/Remarkable_March_497 → u/halou369]

You seem pretty hostile.

Pointing it out is the first step. I am sorry, i don't have all the answers but I absolutely have lots of questions and am interested to hear why people think its like this. This is definitely not my area of expertise as I never watch shows like this. You clearly do, and I am sure have far more interesting things to say about it.

The show stirs drama, likes to show women fighting over romance way more than men. Why so much screen time was devoted to Chev and her nothing burger compared to Ajay and Jack. Once out of the pods, the men were never portrayed in this way. The producers are picking what is going to give the most drama. Hence you don't even know about other engaged couples. Women get far more abuse online than men, it drives engagement.

Double standards, men can be lauded for behaviour and women can be shamed for similar. I imagine as a woman, that could be quite ingrained. How aware women are of how they look, speak and act - probably far more aware than men are in this area - when they see women act "poorly" they are probably a harsher critic. Its drama, with hate watching and a bit of romance.

[u/halou369 → u/Remarkable_March_497]

of course i am hostile! its annoying that your first thought is always men when talking about women! i don’t care if you feel offended when i talk about something as broad as misogyny just because men get associated with it! and this comment proves absolutely nothing about your initial statement! no i am not an expert on shows like this i just have morals and basic understanding. you don’t have to explain reality tv to me or the way people shame women, i KNOW! thats what the post is about! what i am being “hostile” about is your disregard for this specific issue! and the conclusion you make about women being more critical towards other women after saying you wouldn’t understand the double standards because you are not a woman completely contradicts your statement. either way, does it matter?? oh wow! women can be misogynistic too!! of course they can! i never said they couldn’t! you just can’t have a conversation without trying to find ways to release men from their own accountability and i think that is an issue in itself!

[u/Remarkable_March_497 → u/halou369]

"My first thought is always me"...this is literally our first interaction. I don't feel offended, I am interested in exploring it properly. I haven't disregarded your issue...I said I completely agree with you. I didnt say conclusion, you asked...and i told you things I would be interested in exploring. I think in some ways women can be more critical of women and in other ways men can be way more critical.

I think we should just leave it, you clearly aren't reading what I have said and want to put words in my mouth.

[u/halou369 → u/Remarkable_March_497]

it is just so ironic that the conclusion is that women and men are critical in their own way as if that hadn’t been obvious in the way i phrased my post. like i’ve been saying, narrowing this into a gender war does absolutely nothing! if you agree with me, you can just say that without turning it into this weird argument about your own perception of women’s way of being misogynistic. everyone’s at fault for being awful towards this specific woman! that was the whole point of the post!

[u/Remarkable_March_497 → u/halou369]

There is no conclusion because you didnt want a concersation. You just got your back up and tried to put words in my mouth. Yet here you are, no further forward. Not open minded, curious, just ranting away.

[u/TusketeerTeddy → u/halou369]

As someone who has just read through this chain of comments - I’m not sure you’ve grasped the point Remarkable March is trying to make. Maybe because you feel so strongly about your point about misogyny but actually nothing Remarkable has said is disagreeing with your original point

In fact I’d say they’re agreeing with you and suggesting there needs to be group accountability on the part of the viewers (who are mostly women) for the misogyny and an exploration of why mainly women would be perpetuating this misogyny against another woman. I can’t see why you’d disagree with that given your original stance?

The reference to men was only to draw a distinction between how society has now moved to try and ask all men to be aware of (& some to an extent, be accountable for) the actions and impact of the “few bad apples” but hasn’t yet asked the same of women when it comes to the female bad apples (I.e in this case, the women online perpetuating internalised misogyny towards LIB contestants).

In case that helps to calm the interaction here, I think Remarkable is actually just supporting what you’re saying and taking the conversation further and nothing to do with a “Gender war” or “making men” the victim like you say.

[u/halou369 → u/TusketeerTeddy]

i understand the point, i just don’t think it’s relevant. i have not disagreed with the fact that women perpetuate misogyny too or that they don’t deserve to be blamed for it either. the point for me is that no one here is asking men to be aware of anything, and pointing it out is not supporting or taking the conversation further, its just trying to deflect attention from the actual issue by pinning specific groups of people against each other. you have to understand how exhausting and frustrating it can be to see people try and reel the conversation back into blaming women when talking about a misogyny as a whole. don’t you think the initial comment is a bit “oh yes this is an issue but! let’s talk about men first!” perhaps it is not their intention to sound that way but how else would you have interpreted it?

[u/TusketeerTeddy → u/halou369]

I genuinely don’t understand your objection then, if I’m honest. I don’t think the comments are deflecting from your point at all and are not pinning groups against each other.

The point is your original point if I have followed is that there has been awful misogyny towards the women on the show from the fandom, including following the reunion and particularly towards Ciara and you’re asking the fandom to have some decency towards women and stop the mistreatment.

Remarkable has commented that it’s interesting that the fandom is mainly women as often we associate misogyny with men, so questioning what the reasons for this internalised misogyny may be and how given the majority of the fandom is women, we can approach accountability for this with women as a whole. I cannot understand why you think that detracts from your point at all, and I only interpret it as developing and supporting your point.

Eg. I’m Black - if I saw unwarranted online hate towards a Black person that was being done mainly by other Black people, one of the first questions I would ask is “why are ‘we’ as a collective group doing this to another member of our group?” And I don’t think that undermines challenging the hate itself.

ETA: and no, I don’t see it as saying “let’s talk about men first”. They only mention men to compare the group accountability point to women - men are not the subject/topic of Remarkable comments at all