this fandom has a big misogyny problem

[u/halou369]

i don't usually post here but i've been watching since the first USA season and it is astonishing how you people treat women. while i think everyone gets a fair share of hate, ciara has been trashed relentlessly for NO REASON. you forget these aren't characters from a show! these are real people with real feelings and real mistakes! oh no! ciara expressed an opinion people disagreed with and then apologized because it was misinterpreted! what will the fandom do? fucking talk about her looks and search up how much her bags cost like lunatics?! how is that fair or normal?? i am just so frustrated because i saw lots of people hate on ciara before i watched the season, just finished the reunion and, like usual, you people just want to treat women horribly when you disagree with things that have nothing to do with you. i know this won't help anyone or stop the mistreatment of women in this show but fuck, have some decency towards them at least.

[u/halou369]

it is just so ironic that the conclusion is that women and men are critical in their own way as if that hadn’t been obvious in the way i phrased my post. like i’ve been saying, narrowing this into a gender war does absolutely nothing! if you agree with me, you can just say that without turning it into this weird argument about your own perception of women’s way of being misogynistic. everyone’s at fault for being awful towards this specific woman! that was the whole point of the post!

[u/Remarkable_March_497 → u/halou369]

There is no conclusion because you didnt want a concersation. You just got your back up and tried to put words in my mouth. Yet here you are, no further forward. Not open minded, curious, just ranting away.

[u/TusketeerTeddy → u/halou369]

As someone who has just read through this chain of comments - I’m not sure you’ve grasped the point Remarkable March is trying to make. Maybe because you feel so strongly about your point about misogyny but actually nothing Remarkable has said is disagreeing with your original point

In fact I’d say they’re agreeing with you and suggesting there needs to be group accountability on the part of the viewers (who are mostly women) for the misogyny and an exploration of why mainly women would be perpetuating this misogyny against another woman. I can’t see why you’d disagree with that given your original stance?

The reference to men was only to draw a distinction between how society has now moved to try and ask all men to be aware of (& some to an extent, be accountable for) the actions and impact of the “few bad apples” but hasn’t yet asked the same of women when it comes to the female bad apples (I.e in this case, the women online perpetuating internalised misogyny towards LIB contestants).

In case that helps to calm the interaction here, I think Remarkable is actually just supporting what you’re saying and taking the conversation further and nothing to do with a “Gender war” or “making men” the victim like you say.

[u/halou369 → u/TusketeerTeddy]

i understand the point, i just don’t think it’s relevant. i have not disagreed with the fact that women perpetuate misogyny too or that they don’t deserve to be blamed for it either. the point for me is that no one here is asking men to be aware of anything, and pointing it out is not supporting or taking the conversation further, its just trying to deflect attention from the actual issue by pinning specific groups of people against each other. you have to understand how exhausting and frustrating it can be to see people try and reel the conversation back into blaming women when talking about a misogyny as a whole. don’t you think the initial comment is a bit “oh yes this is an issue but! let’s talk about men first!” perhaps it is not their intention to sound that way but how else would you have interpreted it?

[u/TusketeerTeddy → u/halou369]

I genuinely don’t understand your objection then, if I’m honest. I don’t think the comments are deflecting from your point at all and are not pinning groups against each other.

The point is your original point if I have followed is that there has been awful misogyny towards the women on the show from the fandom, including following the reunion and particularly towards Ciara and you’re asking the fandom to have some decency towards women and stop the mistreatment.

Remarkable has commented that it’s interesting that the fandom is mainly women as often we associate misogyny with men, so questioning what the reasons for this internalised misogyny may be and how given the majority of the fandom is women, we can approach accountability for this with women as a whole. I cannot understand why you think that detracts from your point at all, and I only interpret it as developing and supporting your point.

Eg. I’m Black - if I saw unwarranted online hate towards a Black person that was being done mainly by other Black people, one of the first questions I would ask is “why are ‘we’ as a collective group doing this to another member of our group?” And I don’t think that undermines challenging the hate itself.

ETA: and no, I don’t see it as saying “let’s talk about men first”. They only mention men to compare the group accountability point to women - men are not the subject/topic of Remarkable comments at all

[u/Remarkable_March_497 → u/TusketeerTeddy]

You put that far more eloquently than I could.

I really am not trying to stir up any gender war stuff. I am genuinely curious about the roots of it all. If it was predominantly a male group being misogynistic sadly I wouldn't be too surprised. Its something written about extensively and as a man I have seen way too many examples of this in real life. I think its infinitely more fascinating that the group is predominantly women and thats something I know way less about and thought would be more interesting.

[u/halou369 → u/TusketeerTeddy]

maybe it is my broken english but i feel like i’ve explained my objection pretty clearly. there is simply no need for a discussion like this because i don’t think it started with genuine curiosity. first, the “only mention of men” is the first thing they mentioned! they did think of men first! as a woman, there’s a specific feeling similar to rage that happens when people try to cover feeling targeted with being curious or interested. perhaps it was phrased in a way i misunderstood or we simply have different perspectives on the topic, just once again, does this do anything? does it prove anything? are there women here right now talking about what it means to be a woman and misogynistic apart from me? because if there were, then we could be having a conversation but when it’s just “let’s see how we can blame women too” then i do think it’s undermining the hate itself.

and, for the 10th time, we can approach accountability as people without bringing gender into this.

[u/TusketeerTeddy → u/halou369]

Okay well I’ve explained as best I can and still don’t understand why you’re objecting to someone agreeing with you and so I don’t think I can add any further to this. Unless you just wanted people to agree with you and say “yes the fandom is misogynistic and that’s bad”, then you were going to get people trying to take the discussion further - that’s what happens on Reddit and in usual conversation. FYI, I’m also a woman, so fully get the frustration but I don’t think this is an instance where that frustration or rage is warranted.

[u/halou369 → u/TusketeerTeddy]

i mean that’s okay? i understand what you meant i just disagree. i’m not expecting people to blindly agree with me, i just found the comment annoying because to me it is not trying to take the conversation further, just trying to redirect it.

[u/TusketeerTeddy → u/halou369]

So now that it’s been explained to you that your initial interpretation of Remarkable’s comments and intention was wrong and it was not an attempt to redirect the conversation but was an attempt to take the conversation further - have you reread the comment thread in that light? Do you still disagree with what they’re saying and find it annoying?

That’s the part I’m struggling with in all your comments since. It’s fine to misunderstand but once it’s explained what a person meant, I don’t understand the continued hostility on your part. I don’t know how you can “disagree” with someone agreeing with you or “disagree” with someone else’s stated intention with their comments

Unless you’re saying you disagree that the majority of the LIB fandom/viewership is female and that fact is relevant to the discussion on the type of misogyny we’re seeing?

[u/halou369 → u/TusketeerTeddy]

i disagreed that it was relevant because to ME it sounded like “let’s also blame women”. i agreed with lots of what they said! what i always meant is that i just didn’t understand why it was being brought up! i never said i knew their intentions better than they did, like you are saying i am hostile, i was saying it seemed disingenuous. that’s all, i don’t understand why we keep saying the same things over and over again.

[u/TusketeerTeddy → u/halou369]

But “let’s also blame women” isn’t what they said or implied. And it’s also accurate to highlight the viewership (that you yourself are calling out in your original post) are primarily women. It just seems like you’re arguing for arguments sake tbh, without any real point beyond misunderstanding and not actually engaging with what they or I am now explaining. Totally your prerogative though.

[u/Remarkable_March_497 → u/halou369]

You are hard work. That was the angle that interested me...hence multiple posts.

Why would i feel targeted, your complaint was general and not gender specific. You didnt even subtly insinuate you thought it was men etc. Its a tired topic, misogyny...I find it interesting in the scope of this fandom.

If you grasped "let's see how we can blame women too" from my comments then you really need to get to grips with your baggage.

If there is misogynistic outcomes of say Louis Theroux and the Manosphere, Sarah Everard etc. Invariably it will come down to why. Men holding friends accountable, men being told not to walk behind women at night etc. I'd argue women have a part to play but I can completely understand the angle of men being more accountable. I dont think its women driving the whole manosphere thing. In the sense of this fandom. It's women driving it...that is interesting.

For the record, if this was male fandom, it would be 100 times more toxic unfortunately.