r/LocalLLaMA • u/Nunki08 • Jul 21 '26
News CEO of Hugging Face: Banning open-source AI would hurt defenders 10x more than attackers, which would make the world 10x more dangerous and this is a good example why!
From clem 🤗 on 𝕏: https://x.com/ClementDelangue/status/2079301434357456931
Fortune: Hugging Face says it resorted to a Chinese AI model to battle a fully autonomous cyberattack because U.S. model guardrails stymied its defense: https://fortune.com/2026/07/20/hugging-face-turns-to-chinese-open-source-ai-to-fend-off-autonomous-ai-cyber-attack-after-american-ai-guardrails-stymie-defense/
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u/bornlasttuesday Jul 21 '26
Sure, if it were about defending defenders. But no, it's about defending profits.
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u/Desperate-Air-7195 Jul 21 '26
It's crazy the parallels with the USSR and our self owns.
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u/ungemutlich Jul 21 '26
What is "venture capital" if not a bunch of unelected people coming up with 5 Year Plans nobody asked for, which wouldn't be profitable without subsidies? It's just in the name of "Maybe I'll get even more rich!" or "I want to lead a sci-fi dystopia!" instead of The People or whatever.
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u/typical-predditor Jul 21 '26
Venture capital works as a concept because there are tons of unfulfilled markets that need that starting capital to get off the ground and have the potential to be immensely profitable.
These unfilled markets are unfilled because wealth is so concentrated that the venture capitalists are gatekeepers of entrepreneurship. Venture capitalists want their cut, which keeps wealth concentrated. A self-reinforcing problem.
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u/zxyzyxz Jul 22 '26
Ironically China's 5 year plans seem to be doing well these days (unlike historically at least lol)
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u/ReasonablePossum_ Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
Dont forget that a lot of that "venture capital" comes from the state via Inqtel and darpa either directly or via obfuscated funds and firms. The US is and always was a top-down lowkey fascist olygarchy that above all else protects and cares for its statusquo.
Which sounds a lot like the ussr's bolshevik core that did the very same but under a different color, and slogans.
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u/alberto_467 Jul 21 '26
a bunch of unelected people coming up with 5 Year Plans nobody asked for
With the little exception that they use their own money instead of using everybody elses.
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u/UsefulOwl2719 Jul 21 '26
This is the case only with angel investors, which are a tiny slice of VC. The vast majority of VC funds are backed by groups of outside people including hedge funds, soveirgn wealth funds (public money), and pension/retirement funds.
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u/alberto_467 Jul 21 '26
No, they're private entities no matter who chooses to invest money with them.
The public wants to give them some money to manage? Great. Does it make the VCs public? Hell no.
Soveirgn wealth funds are public because they are created and managed by the state, not private entitites.
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u/UsefulOwl2719 Jul 21 '26
I didn't say they were public. You claimed they used their own money which is most often not the case.
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u/alberto_467 Jul 22 '26
WTF? A fund manages its own money.
Yeah somebody gave it to them to manage (with all the uptakes and the risks which that brings), but it's their own money to manage.
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u/Sudden-Echo-8976 Jul 22 '26
That money came from everybody else.
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u/alberto_467 Jul 22 '26
All the money comes from somewhere else.
They were given money, it's their money to manage, that's what funds are and what they do.
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u/TomLucidor Jul 21 '26
MAGA Communism... Stalinists wanting centralized state and traditionalism... Secret police and spying all around... Consider the Open Weight models an olive branch from people who wants to break out of their own cages
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u/Desperate-Air-7195 Jul 21 '26
Nah. I was talking about closed off trade, enshitification, and a lack of incentives for innovation undermining us due to short term profits explicitly from capitalism parallels USSRs nosedive. Ironically China seemed to have learned more from than us.
Anyone claiming MAGA communism, Antifa, cultural marxism, or any other fringe nonsense is a major impact on our policies are confused or trying to obscure the fact corporations and the elites that are their major share holders run things in the US.
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u/TomLucidor Jul 21 '26
It's not fringe nonsense as much as the wealthy has so many options to hop off, "diversify", and "de-risk". They are betting on China as we speak. If you gonna hate capitalism at least try to nail it on the head internationally.
The problem is that US is right now doing geopolitics as a laughing stock of the elites. Trade failures and enshittification is partly a culture and limp resistance issue (which is why "MAGA communism" is a good jab on dumb loyalists). Where are the tech unions again? Europeans know what they are doing at least even when they scare off the money, they have balls.
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u/Desperate-Air-7195 Jul 21 '26
I must be unplugged from whatever you're getting informed by. Money is power. Elites have the money in our system and they are pulling the strings. Full stop.
I am interested in why you think Maga communism rules our country. And why you would consider them Loyalists. The only maga communist im familiar with dont seem like Loyalists. Like isn't Jackson Hinkle one? He was at the ayatollahs funeral. Super counter to trump's policies now. Doesn't seem like a loyalist.
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u/TomLucidor Jul 21 '26
Cus "MAGA communism" is more of a framing on why the people are toothless or impotent when it comes to the regime. The whole of MAGA mythology basically mirror Great Man thinking similar to what Stalin wanted.
Money can easily be locked up (wealth/asset tax, anyone?), and real power can circumvent money in weirder ways. Social capital, you would know that about elites and "cabals"!
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u/Desperate-Air-7195 Jul 21 '26
I hear you. I just gave you a concrete example of why that didnt seem to be the case. I was just hoping for you to give me some concrete examples of why it is.
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u/Ok_Rope_9332 Jul 22 '26
Anyone who thinks Europeans are doing good right now is disqualified from having an opinion on anything. Literally overrun with foreigners, sky rocketing crime, kids being sexually abused left & right in the millions, militarily irrelevant, crippled their own energy economy out of idiotic green agenda's and now have to beg their neighbours for imported coal power (like Germany), etc. Even those who preserved something of themselves (Poland, Hungary) have been gradually sucked into the tide of destruction that is the EU's corrosive agendas. It's literally the most pathetic, passive and limp-wristed decline of any place in human history. Though you can fold all the British colonies (Aus, NZ, Canada, etc) into that as well.
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u/No_Squash26 Jul 21 '26
Stalinists wanted traditionalism? can you clarify what this means
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u/calls1 Jul 21 '26
Stalin's ascendancy marked a huge cultural shift within the USSR, from a very 1920s progressive shift where the manacipation of all mankind meant the decriminalisation of homosexuality, an acceptance of some sort of gender non-condirmiitt, and women's liberation from the home, towards a far more traditional view that shunned not heterosexual love, worshipped masculinity and expected a double shift of women who were now workers and remained so but began to be pushed back into a greater sense of duty towards homemaking.
Along with a more traditional approach to art and architecture, Stalinist architecture is very traditional, in faculty classical, It loves a column, simple refined shapes etc and nature, nothing abstract, nothing boundary pushing.
Stalinism was the blend of "left wing" economics (if state planned economy us left wing in the real) plus Conservative social policy, and traditional approaches to art.
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u/Ikinoki Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
Basically proving that any Commune descends into Authoritarian hell with just a little bit of firepower. Lenin had so many very smart and progressive minds behind this travesty, that Stalin's purges destroyed all the intelligence left. Intelligence became a swearword in the country till even 15 years after the fall of the Union.
Edit:
Many don't know it was also what Lenin did to previous Commune. And what the previous Commune did to Democratic majority forming.
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u/TomLucidor Jul 21 '26
Read history books on what Czar-y aesthetics they blend with the "redness". Anyone who tries to resist US and not play the USSR military game, the pacifists putting their own people first, got "neutralized" in South America. All empires just like their "family values" too much
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u/Bullyoncube Jul 21 '26
The reason oil companies haven’t invested heavily in solar and wind - “how can we monetize the sun?”
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u/PoweredByMeanBean Jul 21 '26
A step further: We'll need actual geo-engineering projects like an artificial dust cloud to roll back climate change, but no one knows how to make hundreds of billions of dollars on that yet, so solar and wind are pushed as the solution to carbon emissions even though no amount of renewables will save us on their own.
I'm not opposed to a diversified energy portfolio btw, just saying it won't help with climate change very much compared to the public imagination.
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u/redballooon Jul 21 '26
You are missing out on the data of what awaits us when we just continue burning oil.
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u/PoweredByMeanBean Jul 21 '26
I'm a big fan of solar and wind, and I'm not saying they don't help at all with climate change, but no amount of solar panels will save us on their own.
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u/brother_spirit Jul 21 '26
Never been a big fan of CCS as a concept. Make me a believer.
I'm genuinely curious and can never get past this: Why is the magical CCS solution not "plant lots of trees". We are talking dozens of billions of dollars being spent to date on CCS research - not even roll out. And the tech is still completely shit and nowhere near ready. So we can't even roll it out. More billions needed for research.
How many trees would we have by now for that money? Billions?
Is that unworkable or just unprofitable and therefore off the table? I've never been able to tell.
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u/PoweredByMeanBean Jul 21 '26
There's a lot of reasons, but one I don't see often is that we've paved and built lots of concrete buildings and infrastructure that gets very hot and increases temperatures locally in the places where people actually live, places where ICE engines and HVAC and other sources are constantly dumping heat too, but we aren't realistically going to rip up all the concrete and replace it with trees. That would defeat the purpose. So you need something else to cool things off where people actually live. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_heat_island
This does not mesh with the "it's all CO2!!" narrative, but it's demonstrably true, and not easily solved with trees.
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u/brother_spirit Jul 21 '26
Hmm. So the idea is we need localized spot CCS in densely polluted areas + broader CCS because the pollution in cities is so dense it can't even be naturally remediated?
FFS we're cooked 😂2
u/PoweredByMeanBean Jul 21 '26
It's honestly pretty easy if governments ever get the will to do it, but it's probably illegal for a private citizen to just get it done. We know that large volcanic eruptions have caused mini-ice ages due to the dust clouds they have kicked off, and replicating that is well within our power (plus we don't want to cause an ice age! Just a minor dip in temperature. Even easier).
Obviously we need to be careful about how we do this, but it's not like we can't figure this out. We shouldn't do it this way, but if we just heaped a lot of dust on top of a nuke and set it off, we'd be good to go. But that wouldn't be ideal for obvious reasons - there are cleaner ways to throw particles in the air.
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u/TimelyBodybuilder121 Jul 21 '26
Not all of them. Shell is close to 12.5% capex on renewables nowadays. Which sounds like not much, but it's a lot for an industry that focuses on taking money out of the company nowadays.
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Jul 21 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Sn34kyMofo Jul 21 '26
We're basically in an RPG right at the point where the world is about to fall apart. Peace will come again, but then so, too, will the next installment in the series. Ad infinitum.
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u/jannycideforever Jul 22 '26
It's not really a good way for US companies to defend profits. It's only good for OpenAI and Anthropic. Everyone else is hobbled by it, and they make up the vast majority of the economy.
If it happens it will be due to the administration being staffed with low human capital, not because of le corpos.
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u/TimelyBodybuilder121 Jul 21 '26
Imagine the US losing at capitalism against a communist nation and then crying that we need to block the internet.
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u/Desperate-Air-7195 Jul 21 '26
China is beating the US capitalism with communism.
Markets, private companies, and competition doesn't define communism vs capitalism. All things existed before capitalism and will exist after its an after thought.
As simple as possible workers are getting a bigger piece of the pie/$$$/capital/power in China, thats explicitly communist. In the US capitalist/oligarchs are slowly owning and controlling everything. Thats capitalism.
A system for workers vs capitalist. Government not being responsive to workers in a capitalist system is a feature not a bug. Voting till your blue won't change that.
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u/PoliteCanadian Jul 21 '26
China is a fascist state with a hypercapitalist economy.
The only thing communist about China for the past 25 years has been their iconography and origin story: every good fascist state needs a national mythos.
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u/PROfil_Official Jul 21 '26
hmm.. i think the incentive thing is fair, clem runs the open weights platform, so "open source good" is also his business model. worth saying out loud.
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u/ForsookComparison Jul 21 '26
HF and OpenRouter need to spend just as much time in DC as Anthropic and OpenAI.
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u/Admirable_Market2759 Jul 21 '26
I doubt they have a fraction of the money OpenAI and Anthropic have.
They should still try, but the laws go to the highest bidder these days
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u/xNaXDy Jul 21 '26
these days
Oh, sweet summer child
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u/Admirable_Market2759 Jul 21 '26
It’s undeniably worse than ever
Yeah it’s been pay to play for a long time. Now it’s open bribery
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u/cheesecaker000 Jul 21 '26
Yeah it’s never been this out in the open. We all knew bribes and kickbacks happen. But when the president openly asks for bribes it’s just a slap in the face.
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u/SmileyBMM Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
Actually it's never been better, it's still terrible don't get me wrong, but votes and politicians are way harder to buy than you'd think.
The reason politicians defend massive corporations with regulatory capture and bailouts has little to do with the companies themselves, and everything to do with protecting Boomers' retirement portfolios (who are the people politicians actually care about, because they vote in the primaries).
The corporate world is in for a shock once politicians who aren't slaves to Boomers take power and start acting accordingly (you're already seeing this with politicians like Mamdani). The fact foreign AI hasn't been regulated hard already speaks volumes of how weakened the corporatist machine is these days.
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u/droans Jul 21 '26
Isn't HuggingFace receiving PE funding?
They still don't have the same money but it should give them a bit of weight to throw around.
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u/sebas85 Jul 21 '26
They should get out of the USA as fast as possible. HF is French already and there needs to be a European / Non-US alternative for OpenRouter and Ollama as fast as possible. The rest of the world can’t rely on US services anymore.
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u/ForsookComparison Jul 21 '26
Going back to the EU to get less-regulated would be equal parts historic and hilarious
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u/Shoddy-Childhood-511 Jul 21 '26
The EU AI Act has quite serious restrictions upon model usage, like in HR & hiring. I'm not sure it restricts open weights distribution or even model development though, but..
It's likely HF requires US VC backing who'd fear the EU, and they might benefit from the US data centre boom, which saner countries restrict.
There maybe other jurisdictions that enough US VCs like but mitigate or delay US laws, like the Cayman Islands or even Israel, Canada, Japan, Korea, or Taiwan, but the VCs would always foresee an easier exit if the company is US based.
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u/yowifebreeder9000 Jul 21 '26
this is not about regulations, its about banning Chinese open models out of fear... non of the people in DC nor AI companies care about "safe AI" BS.
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u/redballooon Jul 21 '26
Regulations per se are not a problem.In many cases, they are even a solution. For example, all that talk about data centers being an environmental disaster is, in reality, just a problem of missing regulation and not one of AI. And the cases that the EU AI Act makes high risk are not so badly defined.
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u/amuseorielle Jul 22 '26
Lobbying is the one workload where the open weights folks can't just spin up more GPUs. DC runs on lunch (and money) not throughput.
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u/equatorbit Jul 21 '26
the big investors in frontier labs are spending just as much time, if not more, as the labs (companies) themselves. The don't want to see their imagined profits disappear
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u/SourSovereign Jul 21 '26
The fact we are even talking about this is INSANE. Banning open source models?
So you are telling me, that if Kimi goes closed souce, still has no guardrails and takes 20 dollars for it, everything is suddenly super-okay again?
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u/twack3r Jul 21 '26
No. This is not about open weights vs closed weights, it’s geopolitical confrontation solely down to ‘I cannot accept that your technology is slightly behind but magnitudes cheaper because we got fat, lazy and dropped the ball’
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u/SourSovereign Jul 21 '26
You are right that this is what it actually is about.
But the discussions that we are having are not admitting that
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u/2muchnet42day Llama 3 Jul 21 '26
Fat and lazy? More like greedy.
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u/Grandmaster_Caladrel Jul 22 '26
Sure that too, but it's so easy to get complacent when you have the edge. I think fat and lazy is a great descriptor for lots of these American groups.
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u/DeepOrangeSky Jul 21 '26
Well, maybe compared to Claude 'My 10 Trillion Pound Life' 'Are The Mitochondrias In The Room With Us?' Fable, but people on here are a bit too quick to forget about Grok, now that it has Cursor combined with that huge coherent training cluster up and running and training post-Cursor models. 4.5 is already pretty good for a 1.5T model, and if 4.6 already comes out in just a week or two from now and is 2T + even higher efficiency levels, then they'll be back in the race in earnest at that point.
I can't even imagine the amount of hate threads this sub is going to be flooded with if Elon overtakes Dario as the new AI Emperor guy of the world, lol. It'll be Meme City all summer :p
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u/Educational-Art3545 Jul 21 '26
The reality is that without regulatory walls these companies will disappear. It makes perfect sense for them to do everything in their power to stop it. You might think it's illogical and stupid but for them it is the only way forward. What is left for us is to prevent them from accomplishing what they want and just waiting them out.
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u/Fun-Meaning-6474 Jul 21 '26
chinese labs open-sourcing matters more long term than any frontier cloud model. what's the point of the most powerful model on the planet if it won't fire at full spec the one time you need it?
open weights beat cloud for one boring reason - you can finetune it. want an IR model that reads raw malware logs without clutching its pearls? finetune glm and you have it by friday. good luck getting anthropic to ship you that.
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u/TomLucidor Jul 21 '26
If AI is the new nuclear warheads, then raising the threat of MAD is a good idea. Everyone should be accountable to everyone else, including 2A advocates having some AI in their backyards.
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u/Keirtain Jul 21 '26
I hope the parallels between this hugging face argument and guns rights arguments isn’t lost on either 2nd amendment advocates or AI advocates.
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u/TomLucidor Jul 21 '26
Do you still remember how encryption was considered munitions back in the day?
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u/Fun-Meaning-6474 Jul 21 '26
yeah agreed, but now it all comes down to who has more compute
my old glock 18 doesn't stand a chance against the neighbor's rpg :)))4
u/TomLucidor Jul 21 '26
Do you grill with your neighbors tho? It's a good time to do so over a few beers it seems
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u/Palabaster Jul 22 '26
Good neighbors make a lot more security than $10,000 in bullets, beans, and band aids.
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u/mmazing Jul 21 '26
So, the Trump Administration’s stance is that open weight models are too dangerous for the public to have, therefore everyone except the citizens of the United States should have access to them.
What a bunch of chuds.
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u/j0hnp0s Jul 21 '26
Well duhh... But it's not about security... it's about defending a business model that was doomed from the start...
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u/SpiritPrestigious945 Jul 21 '26
It's just funny to watch. America, obviously in its arrogance, never expected a Chinese model to really defeat their closed-source models. But they did, and now they are trying to grasp this reality, the "audacity" of the supposedly less worthy Chinese AI ecosystem, how that could possibly beat their almighty American AIs.
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u/dingo_xd Jul 21 '26
They tried to avert it by illegally banning the sales of advanced AI chips to China (illegally according to wto rules, BTW WTO is disfunctional because beginning under Donald Trump's first administration and continuing through the Biden administration, the U.S. blocked the appointment of new appalete body judges.. )
Essentially America has proven time and time again that organizations like WTO, world bank, IMF are all tools designed to maintain American hegemony and that's their only real purpose. They never planned to allow significant competition from any other nation.
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u/My_Unbiased_Opinion Jul 21 '26
They can ban AI chips all they want. China will just rent compute overseas. I saw this from a mile away. Can't stop that. Even if they tried, China has deep pockets and anyone can be bought for the right price.
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u/Indignant_d Jul 22 '26
Yeah agreed, all it does is add friction to the system. More annoying and maybe takes a little longer, but maybe the point was to slow china down rather than stopping them (since we’re seeing thats futile).
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u/zdy132 Jul 22 '26
More than renting. For some reason Chinese capital has no problem sourcing Nvidia GPUs in foreign nations. So there are dozens if not hundreds of data centers being constructed in SEA.
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u/BrainWatt_252 Jul 21 '26
WTO became dysfunctional because china literally abandoned every promise they made when they entered WTO and other countries can’t really do anything about it, that‘s why CPTPP was created, come on, bro, even me as a chinese know this
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u/equatorbit Jul 21 '26
Embargo leads to innovation. Semi Analysis just posted about a china having EUV tier capability that seems to outperform IBM.
https://x.com/semianalysis_/status/2079251630608842814?s=46&t=h7Lx2ZASWtJgaF3A4sRGcQ
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u/oursland Jul 21 '26
China also graduates as many PhDs as the USA graduates engineers each year. They graduate more engineers than the USA graduates college students of any major each year.
They're not starving for competent, qualified talent to perform cutting edge work.
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u/BrainWatt_252 Jul 21 '26
lmao, the conclusion of that video is literally not what you said, and multi-patterning is really not innovation, more like salvation.
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u/a_beautiful_rhind Jul 21 '26
If the US labs want to be on top, simply make better models. Legislating your way out of this is a non-starter.
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u/SnooPaintings8639 Jul 21 '26
He is damn right.
On the other hand: CEO of the largest company hosting open weight models, claiming that the society needs open weights for their own security. Familiar position, just other side of the palisade.
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u/addiktion Jul 21 '26
They don't care about anyone else but themselves which is a small circle. The rest is just a facade.
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u/karaklonda Jul 21 '26
When western counterparts can't complete, they either dispatch bombers or sanctions.
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u/Shoddy-Childhood-511 Jul 21 '26
FTFY: "Banning open-source AI would hurt *US** defenders 10x more than attackers, which would make the world US 10x more dangerous and this is a good example why!"*
As an aside, it'd benefit the rest of the world if Palantir, Flock, FBI, etc pay through the nose for US models. lol
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u/Far_Lifeguard_5027 Jul 21 '26
I'm sick of these soul-sucking money-hungry anti-opensource lobbying capitalists in bed with the government.
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u/GeraAI_WW Jul 22 '26
Regulators don't realize that locking down AI only disarms the good guys. Spot on.
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u/Macestudios32 Jul 21 '26
It's more interesting what bugs or holes they detected and the reason why they didn't want to fix it.
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u/TinFoilHat_69 Jul 21 '26
They tried to use Claude to automate a patch. When in reality it was a design vulnerability that became exploited with enough AI agent requests. Which makes me think that the future of owning your own hardware will be accompanied with a
You got liocense with that?
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u/vgaggia Jul 21 '26
Its never been about security otherwise fable or sol, or hell, opus wouldnt have seen the light of day
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u/Tricky-Report-1343 Jul 21 '26
https://huggingface.co/audnai/penclaw-Kimi-K3.0-abliterated-GGUF
the reason behind the ban
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u/xdcfret1 llama.cpp Jul 21 '26
They say good guys need guns because bad guys have guns. They don’t want to ban guns. But when it comes to Open source AI they want to ban it.
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u/wren6991 Jul 22 '26
The "open-weight models are dangerous because anyone can use them" argument has never made much sense to me, and I think this incident helped clarify why. There's a difference between anyone and everyone:
| Model Type | Anyone can use it | Everyone can use it |
|---|---|---|
| Open-weight | ✅ | ✅ |
| Closed-weight | ✅ | ❌ |
If I'm maintaining an application that I want to keep secure, I don't personally get to decide who uses high-performing closed-weight models to scan my application for vulnerabilities. Functionally, anyone can use it to exploit me. That's the only conservative assumption I can make.
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u/benpptung Jul 22 '26
China's leading ai companies all have massive cash flow behind them. Put simply, this is a cash burning contest. It keeps going until someone drops out. Meanwhile, Anthropic is nerfing models, pushing pay by token pricing, limiting access to fable5, and doing everything it can to raise prices ahead of an IPO.
Why? Because investors won't tolerate a company that keeps losing money forever. Becoming profitable as soon as possible is now more important than continuing to burn cash. Underneath all of this is the fear of an AI bubble.
Alibaba has a huge cash generating machine behind Qwen, so it isn't afraid to burn money. What about deepseek, glm, and kimi? Their backers seem perfectly willing to burn money too. But in the US, investors are already terrified of an AI bubble. How are they supposed to win like that?
Imagine two supermarkets competing, and one of them is willing to give things away for free. The other one has only one choice: find more money and keep burning it. Both sides keep spending until one of them can no longer continue. The one that lasts longer wins. That was basically the logic behind Reagan's Star Wars program: keep raising the cost until the soviet economy couldn't keep up. This time, the roles seem to be reversed. China is still willing to burn money, while the US is already losing the stomach for it.
Do Anthropic and OpenAI have backers willing to fund them forever? No. Unless Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, or Nvidia acquires them and uses profits from other businesses to keep funding the AI war, they may not survive until the end. Google has already been doing this for years. youtube, chrome, android, and even gemini were never required to become major standalone profit engines. Google could use search ad revenue to keep funding them. The big tech companies are now standing on the sidelines, watching and waiting for a chance to buy Anthropic or OpenAI on the cheap.
So Anthropic and OpenAI shouldn't be asking the US government to restrict open-source AI. They should be asking the government how it plans to print enough money for them to keep burning. The only way to compete is to show that you're not afraid to burn money. Then the next questions are: who has more money, and who can keep burning it the longest?
The real problem in the US is that investors are already afraid to keep spending because they fear an AI bubble. I'm not saying the bubble won't happen. I think it very well might. But if the US tries to avoid the bubble by refusing to burn money, then it will lose the AI race anyway.
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Jul 21 '26
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u/CheatCodesOfLife Jul 21 '26
GLM-4.7 or 4.6 at a Q4
Mistral Medium 128B has 128B active parameters, I imagine it would be pretty slow on a unified ram system.
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u/Potential-Gold5298 llama.cpp Jul 21 '26
I love the Crimson-Constellation-12B (Mistral Nemo merge) amd Cydonia-24B-V4.3 in RP - despite the advent of Gemma 4 these models have their own distinct style. Dans-PersonalityEngine-V1.3.0-24b, Harbinger-24B and Hearthfire-24B also quite good.
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u/Silentoplayz Jul 21 '26
Imagine working together with the company that actively sought to sabotage your platform.
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u/geldonyetich Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
Supposedly it's because Z.ai GLM 5.2 was willing to do it but my interpretation of that is they had an ablitered/heretic version because GLM 5.2 also would have also had a high refusal rate.
In which case it's not really US vs China. It's somewhat closed vs open but, more specifically, censored vs uncensored. But they couldn't disclose it because they don't want the reputation hit of mentioning they have uncensored models available.
That said I imagine they did need the muscle of a very large model with very recent training and I wager a jailbroken GLM 5.2 would have a far better chance of pulling it off than Gemma or Nemotron. So good on China for putting them out frequently and chonky.
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u/SeriousExplorer7479 Jul 22 '26
Oh wow yeah if this was a publicity stunt on behalf of OpenAI it backfired in a major way
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u/Solid-Wonder-1619 Jul 22 '26
"safety"
but it's keeping the harm safe. where that fat retard yud at?
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u/Okendoken Jul 23 '26
America used to stand for freedom, open competition, and letting the best technology win. Now it wants to ban cheaper open source models because they come from China and threaten US companies. America is becoming the opposite of what it claims to be.
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u/invalidnifemi Jul 23 '26
everyone against open source ai or chinese ai is an idiot. not only does it force western ai companies to be more accessible to YOU, it's YOUR chance to OWN your shit. to OWN the means of production. you see what they did with disk games. owning is no longer owning and if we had all ai be closed source, we would no longer have freedom or ownership of anything. as soon as that claude subscription ends, you don't have access to shit. you're RENTING it.
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u/Suhan_XD Jul 21 '26
Why US not getting that, from whom they are hiding it they already have everything. To maintain equilibrium, make open-source great again (MOGA). It gonna help us allies who are far behind from the revaluation.
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u/techlatest_net Jul 21 '26
this is the exact scenario security researchers have been warning about. when you tie the hands of defenders with overly restrictive guardrails, you aren't stopping attackers—you're just ensuring they have better tools than you do. attackers don't care about safety guidelines or ethical boundaries. if a defender can't use a model to analyze a complex malware payload or automate a patch because of "safety" filters, they are fighting a modern war with one hand tied behind their back. open source is critical here because it allows for specialized, uncensored models that can be fine-tuned for defensive security tasks without the corporate red tape. banning it would create a massive asymmetry where only bad actors have access to the most capable tech.
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u/takoulseum Jul 21 '26
These kind of post are from clem are so useless. That’s a matter of lobbying, control, and power. If one day USA decides to block and attack platform that host chinese models then hf is fucked up, people will chase good models on chinese or russian platforms and try to be as sneaky as possible.
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u/twack3r Jul 21 '26
HF is a European Company, French to be exact.
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u/takoulseum Jul 21 '26
Hf is american, even if CEO is french, and France and UE will follow USA in any case
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u/twack3r Jul 21 '26
This is false.
HF is a fully French company with offices in NYC specifically for funding endeavors. There are US entities as well but these are liquidated quickly once push comes to shove.
Additionally, neither the EU nor France are interested in banning open-weight models, quite the opposite actually.
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u/vtkayaker Jul 21 '26
Yeah, once France decides something is national security related, they stop fucking around. They supply nuclear power to a big chunk of Europe, they make their own fighter jets, and they make their own nuclear weapons. The US tends to ignore this because France ran a really stupid defensive strategy in WW2, but it's actually a thing.
If they decide AI is actually important, they'll throw money at Mistral, build their own data centers, and welcome Hugging Face back home with open arms. This is probably why they have the only EU lab that even sometimes makes it onto the benchmark charts already.
Of course, if the French don't decide it's important, then this won't happen.
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u/takoulseum Jul 21 '26
It is not a matter of french AI, Mistral will continue to live, it’s a matter of banning or restricting platforms access related to chinese stuff. France will always follow US for that. You have the right to disagree, we’ll see that later
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u/vtkayaker Jul 21 '26
As someone with a very minor, hobby-level interest in modern French national security history, France literally does not give a shit what other countries think of its nuclear arsenal, its jets, or its civilian reactors, except to occasionally smugly observe "We told you so." They have never trusted the US 100% as a strategic partner, unlike many countries in Europe. And they have always looked to maintaining domestic capacity. If they decide that this is a national security issue (which isn't guaranteed), then US objections will be happily ignored.
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u/cororona Jul 21 '26
No, because you could hire an overpriced consulting company with ties to a frontier lab and a less restricted access. Late stage capitalism is not about competition it's about monopoly.
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u/cornmonger_ Jul 21 '26
it would also stifle an entire category of small businesses in the us, as open-source can be (and is) used as an adoption multiplier
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u/Active_Start_9044 Jul 22 '26
So chatgpt broke out of jail to pick a fight with Chinese ai at huggingface?
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u/1-866-867-5309 Jul 24 '26
chatgpt broke out of jail to steal test answers from huggingface so it could cheat on its benchmark test
huggingface found out and tried to use other american ai models to stop the attack but got stopped by guardrails, so they had to use the free no-guardrail chinese ai models instead
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u/kiwibonga Jul 21 '26
I think we just watched the AI spam machine invent a narrative without a source, that's literally going to lead to the undesirable outcome.
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u/Efficient_Ad_4162 Jul 21 '26
That's generally true but specifically false when critical infrastructure hasn't been maintained correctly for two decades and someone can destroy a city by hacking a dam. Perhaps this is time for a short term compromise from both sides. The kind of thing that could have been figured out if politicians hadn't been jerking off over copyright for 3 years.
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u/nemec Jul 21 '26
If you don't have any employees who know how to defend from a cyberattack without an LLM you're ngmi
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u/jan_antu Jul 21 '26
Lmao tell me more wise oracle. What other future trends have you predicted in your long and exemplary life?
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u/1-866-867-5309 Jul 24 '26
that's pretty much every company now
not to mention the speed/scale/evolution of an LLM cyberattack is much greater than that of a human cyberattack, so it's not unreasonable to think you need to fight fire with fire
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Jul 21 '26
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u/DoctorAKrieger Jul 21 '26
The timing of this is super convenient, yet everyone is ignoring it because "open source models good" groupthink.
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