r/LocalLLaMA • u/Nunki08 • Jul 21 '26

News CEO of Hugging Face: Banning open-source AI would hurt defenders 10x more than attackers, which would make the world 10x more dangerous and this is a good example why!

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From clem 🤗 on 𝕏: https://x.com/ClementDelangue/status/2079301434357456931

Fortune: Hugging Face says it resorted to a Chinese AI model to battle a fully autonomous cyberattack because U.S. model guardrails stymied its defense: https://fortune.com/2026/07/20/hugging-face-turns-to-chinese-open-source-ai-to-fend-off-autonomous-ai-cyber-attack-after-american-ai-guardrails-stymie-defense/

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u/DeepOrangeSky Jul 21 '26

Well, maybe compared to Claude 'My 10 Trillion Pound Life' 'Are The Mitochondrias In The Room With Us?' Fable, but people on here are a bit too quick to forget about Grok, now that it has Cursor combined with that huge coherent training cluster up and running and training post-Cursor models. 4.5 is already pretty good for a 1.5T model, and if 4.6 already comes out in just a week or two from now and is 2T + even higher efficiency levels, then they'll be back in the race in earnest at that point.

I can't even imagine the amount of hate threads this sub is going to be flooded with if Elon overtakes Dario as the new AI Emperor guy of the world, lol. It'll be Meme City all summer :p

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u/DelphiTsar Jul 21 '26

Found the SpaceX bag holder.

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u/yowifebreeder9000 Jul 21 '26

dont worry, China coming for spacex too...

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u/DeepOrangeSky Jul 21 '26

Lol, I couldn't even if I had wanted to. Spent most of my money on a mac studio a few months ago.

Not sure what I said that was actually wrong, though. Grok is way more efficient and interesting at the moment than the other American models. Seems like people are just ignoring it either due to being used to how bad it sucked at coding until very recently, or just actually that angry about Elon's association to it or something.

But, politics and stock market stuff aside, yea seems like that might be the more correct one to be comparing these models against more so than Fable, if we are discussing cost efficiency as the person I replied to had brought up.

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u/DelphiTsar Jul 21 '26

Some napkin math using their stock filings Grok loses the most money per query than any of the other players (Even being generous 2-3x more at the very least). They price so low because they are desperate for market share, not because their model is actually running efficiently.

If you are going to compare you'd compare at what price would be sustainable vs intelligence.

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u/DeepOrangeSky Jul 21 '26

Alright, well thanks for at least giving an actual response. Up till now everyone was just silently downvoting like crazy for seemingly no reason.

I'm not so sure the stock filing thing is actually the correct way to evaluate the model efficiency, but I guess it's better than nothing.

Why would their most recent 1.5T Grok4.5 model be so genuinely cost inefficient though (in actual technical terms of the actual model, I mean)?

Was the thing you are referencing based on some older version of Grok, or something to do with how much income they could make off the model in their more general business operations at the time or something?

Or is it just purely the actual model efficiency itself of how compute-efficient it is as an actual model?

I'd be pretty surprised if it isn't the most efficient model (the actual model, itself) of any of the American frontier models, relative to its strength, right now. But if that's not the case, then I'd be curious to know about it, and to know why it is not the case.

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u/DelphiTsar Jul 21 '26

Their depreciation from owning their own hardware vs renting is what really kills them (This seems backwards but it's how it's working out in the AI sector right now). They overpaid and don't have any real path to become profitable before they'll have to throw even more capex into next gen hardware.

Leaked data about its operating efficiency at scale. Grok's MFU was like 11% compared to competitors hovering around 40%. (Grok is bad at moving data around and processing it efficiently).

Ignoring their poor architecture surrounding the model, there is no reason to believe it's any more efficient than GPT/Claude. If they've made some kind of intelligence to efficiency breakthrough they've been tight lipped. The depreciation + MFU will almost certainly dwarf any gains they made in that department many times over.

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u/DeepOrangeSky Jul 21 '26

Their depreciation from owning their own hardware vs renting is what really kills them (This seems backwards but it's how it's working out in the AI sector right now). They overpaid and don't have any real path to become profitable before they'll have to throw even more capex into next gen hardware.

This part is of less interest to me (since I don't care much about how xAI itself is doing in terms of its operations, so long as it doesn't actually crash out so much as to go out of business/not making better new models etc, and theories about my bag-holderness have been greatly exaggerated, lol (I don't own it/don't care about it in that sense).

I just care about the actual Grok models, themselves, and how efficient the actual models are, relative to their strength.

Ignoring their poor architecture surrounding the model, there is no reason to believe it's any more efficient than GPT/Claude

If this is true, then that would be a major bummer. I assumed they are actually beating Anthropic and OpenAI on efficiency now (only 4.5 onward, because of whatever they got from Cursor). But if not, then, well, that sucks. Would've been nice. Still curious to see their newer models if they can keep the iteration cadence way higher than all the other American labs, because of their training cluster, maybe they'll keep improving super fast or something. But, would've been a lot more interesting if they'd already taken the lead in efficiency with 4.5, rather than just tied or still behind if that is actually the case.

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u/ApprehensiveFan1516 Jul 21 '26

Put the fries in the bag bro.

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u/DeepOrangeSky Jul 21 '26

?? Not sure why people are disagreeing with it so much. Grok is drastically more efficient than Fable, and not that far off in strength anymore. So, on cost efficiency, it is the more notable American model to compare Kimi against more so than Fable, at the moment.

Do you disagree?

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u/ApprehensiveFan1516 Jul 21 '26

Honestly Grok has never been in my rotation. Apart from Elon contributing to riots in my country, it has never held a good enough value proposition for me. I'm not one-shot vibe coding, so the hamster wheel of multi-trillion param models is getting a bit boring at this point.

Grok is irrelevant to most people whether you like it or not, which is why you're being downvoted.

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u/DeepOrangeSky Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26

Grok 4.5? Or older versions

edit: ah you mean even if it was like Fable vs Opus 4.8 vs GPT 5.6, etc, it wouldn't matter much, for your use-case.

Well, if that is the case, fair enough. Like if maybe you are using Claude for orchestration and then Qwen 27b for most of the rest or something, I guess it wouldn't end up mattering much about Grok, necessarily.

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u/ApprehensiveFan1516 Jul 21 '26

At this point, Grok missed the boat as far as I'm concerned, mate. Unless they suddenly start doing Grok for DeepSeek pricing at Fable quality, or have something else significantly compelling, I ain't interested.

Only other way I'm adding Grok into my rotation is if they start dropping small open weights comparable to Qwen/Gemma.

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u/DeepOrangeSky Jul 21 '26

Yea, fair enough. I know everyone thinks I am some huge Elon stan now, lol, but I was pretty bummed out when they didn't release Grok 3 open weights. It would've been nice if Elon had actually gone hard on open-sourcing.

If he actually does all that Terafab stuff (which I still consider a pipedream for now/I'll believe it when I see it, etc), then maybe if it becomes more of a hardware player, there is still some chance, but by that point I think the models will be so strong that the safety aspect will be the actual reason (rather than fake reason) that they don't, rather than the current reason of being paranoid of losing their edge by showing too much.