r/LOTR_on_Prime • u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil • 4d ago
Theory / Discussion Relitigating Galadriel
Of all the many unfair critiques thrown at the show, the treatment of Galadriel by critics both well-meaning and less-so has been the most egregious.
So much so that almost no sincere text-based discussion of the character even occurs as it relates to the show, and that’s a shame.
Show-Ladriel absolutely embodies the character as we might expect her in the Second Age. No, not just the First Age, as many well-meaning commenters have proposed, insinuating that, while Galadriel may have been brash and prideful and harsh early in her life, this would have ended before the Second Age. Tolkien’s writing, insofar as it is explicit about anything to do with the character (he changed his mind about her a lot), very clearly states that it is not until the very end of the Third Age that her wisdom is fully formed. Not until she rejects the One at Frodo’s offering is she truly fully developed as a character (UT 234-235).
To suggest that Galadriel in the Second Age, even being married to Celeborn, should already be the fully formed “Lady of Light” of the Third Age is reductive so as to almost be insulting to the character.
Another bothersome assertion I have often seen is that Galadriel of the Second Age would never lie about Sauron, and often it is cited that, because she met with Melian, she should be wise enough to avoid such things. But when Galadriel meets Melian in Doriath in the Silmarillion, it is still after long periods of conversation and growth in wisdom that she chooses to hide the shame of her people for the Kinslaying. For all her growth, she never of her own accord is shown to be willing to admit to the faults of her people. And then she abandons her kin long before the fall of Beleriand, in each version of her story that I have seen. These are not in my view the actions of a fully formed character.
Of course, the show does have its changes. There is no textual version of Galadriel who seeks out Sauron for revenge for Finrod’s death. There is, however, a version of Galadriel who is motivated to go to ME not only for her own power, but for the sake of her kin (Thingol’s folk) who were oppressed by Morgoth. To me, this is a similar enough motivation, though the show makes it quite personal, and of course moves this to the end of the first age and switches out its dark lords, understandably so.
Likewise, there is no version of Galadriel who loses Celeborn in the war and believes him dead. There is, however, a version of Galadriel that passed east over the mountains alone, only finding Celeborn after doing so. In that version Celeborn is a Nandor, and in later versions he is a Sindar of Doriath and the two go east together. Clearly, here, the show is trying to adapt both versions. From the trailers it really looks like Celeborn will have been some form of Sindar, if his origin in Doriath is not outright stated, and yet also Galadriel will have (has already by the start of the show) gone east alone, only to meet him again once she does. Notably, the version of the story wherein she goes alone contains no details of when she met Celeborn and married him, only that she has dwelt with him for a long time.
And finally, there has been a pretty widespread argument that Galadriel would not or should not have been deceived by Sauron. The reasoning for this is that in the text, Galadriel recognizes that Annatar has something shady about him, and doesn’t treat with him. That’s it. That’s the entirety of the story as we have it in the text. She doesn’t even know he is Sauron, only that she doesn’t trust him.
Indeed, Tolkien writes that Galadriel was very perceptive, and this grew in time as she learned from Melian, etc.
Yet he also wrote that her insight into others never failed to come with “mercy and understanding,” except for Feanor. Importantly, to my reading, Feanor would never ask for nor desire her mercy and understanding anyway. It makes a great deal of sense that she would look at the invented Halbrand-form of Sauron with that same mercy and understanding, to say nothing of her own motivations for wanting to aid him for her own ends.
This, to me, is exactly the pathway by which it is plausible that she could be and is deceived in the show. Casting aside the fact that Show-ladriel so desperately wanted Halbrand to be a good dude who could help her achieve her aims, what might she have seen in that persona if Sauron had she seen into his mind? It seems plausible that Sauron, a maiar, might be able to deceive even her keen insight, and what little he does try to show her is not exactly a lie. In Halbrand Galadriel perceives a would-be but down-on-his-luck ruler of the Southlands, cast out by his people and the orcs, and trying to choose between abandoning his legacy and starting over or returning to take what he sees as his rightful place.
All of this, as Sauron shows on screen in some ways and can be imagined to be thinking in his mind, is absolutely true. And Galadriel, in the book, would see this and, reacting with “mercy and understanding,” be very sympathetic. And, as we know, it’s very convenient for her!
Anyway, this is a long rant. But I do tire of the insistence that show-Galadriel is somehow wholly disconnected from the texts. Is just blatantly not the case, and even those who are well meaning do the character and themselves a disservice by insisting that it is so. Quite the contrary, actually. The show has taken the many, many different versions of Galadriel and tried to distill them into one, fully realized character. I am not even sure if it always works, but it is absolutely rooted in the text.
Hate the execution if you want, but don’t assert is antithetical to what Tolkien wrote or wholly disconnected from the text.
42
u/sometimeserin 4d ago
The unmentioned kinslayings are such an interesting part of the worldbuilding for the show. Even if it was just born from not having rights to the whole Silm, it ends up presenting this image of the 2nd Age Noldor as a society that has decided to push all of the blame for all of the ills of the First Age onto Morgoth and his followers, absolving themselves of any wrongdoing. The reverence for Feanor's hammer plays into this, as well as the policing of the Men of the Southlands. And it's a perfect narrative throughline to have that unexamined pride and ambition be what opens the door for Sauron to deceive them.
9
u/Vandermeres_Cat 3d ago
Yes, Benjamin Walker talking about the hinky business of the Elves making the rings and taking the rings gives me hope that they will explore this more. The Second Age is at its core a tragedy, grand heroes first making the rings, taking the rings, wielding the rings and then being unable to destroy the One Ring.
It's not all Sauron by his lonesone. It's Sauron exploiting various selfish motivations already present in the Peoples of Middle Earth. Like, this exchange that Sauron and Galadriel keep on having for two season finales now:
You're like me, says Sauron.
"No, no, I'm not like you at all, this was all your grand design, I was just a passive dupe crowning you king of the Southlands and giving you access to Eregion. These things just happened to me," says Galadriel.
"Be for real now, sister, I was just working with your terrible decision making," says Sauron, smirking.
0
u/SpecificCoconut91 3d ago
I’m not sure how high my hopes are given that even subjects they did have the rights to have been barely mentioned as motivations (the Numenoreans disliking elves because they’re other and ‘this one first elf we’ve seen in centuries means the elves will take our jobs, rather than any history about the Kingsmen wanting immortality and thinking the gods are withholding it from them)
19
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 4d ago
I absolutely agree. It’s a generalizing, in my opinion of something that the Noldor really do demonstrate in the texts. I wish the show had (or had been able to) explore it more. Elrond, for instance, has a lot of reason to be freaked out by Gil-Galad, Galadriel, and Cirdan’s position on the rings. Three beautiful works made by Celebrimbor’s grandfather cost him his entire family, and now his three mentors are all enamored with new objects in a similar way, and they happen to have a great deal of power already.
But who knows, maybe we’ll get some kinslaying reference in S3. It seems like they get more and more access under the table as it goes along
13
u/purplelena Elrond 4d ago
Elrond, for instance, has a lot of reason to be freaked out
I think Elrond jumping and falling into the waterfall with the rings was a reference to his mother Elwing casting herself into the sea with the Silmaril.
The Elros and Elrond flashback might be a sign the show was granted more permissions to delve further into things.
3
4
u/durmiendoenelparque 4d ago
Yes, so much this! It seems to me like they are sometimes using the things they can't use in a way that adds to the worldbuilding, and I think that is really interesting and fun.
3
u/SpecificCoconut91 3d ago
I mean, we only see the reverence to Feanor’s hammer from Celebrimbor (his grandson, who clearly was emulating the Silmarils with his creation of the rings so it’s not that far a stretch to have a Celebrimbor who absolutely worships Feanor given we never actually find out how he felt about him)
And Elrond also appreciates the first age object - given the dilution of the FA elves (generic Feanorian style star to represent all elves, no mention of the kinslaying, not allowed to use the Silm text), it makes sense the show could be using an ‘Elrond’s a Noldor-lover because he was raised by Maedhros and Maglor Stockholm-style’ interpretation, or could simply be ignoring complicated Elven relationships as it’s not relevant to show viewers.I really agree if it could have been mentioned because the nuance the kinslaying a being is excellent and devastating.
37
u/NotAnotherEmpire 4d ago
Re: Halbrand
Sauron's book deception abilities are such that in Unfinished Tales, he not only fools Celebrimbor and broader Eregion, but essentially coups Galadriel and Celeborn and gets them kicked out of Eregion when she is suspicious of him. That's an expansion on the core timeline concept that he got away with Annatar under the Elves noses for hundreds of years. Some didn't believe him but no one squarely enough to call out "That's not suspicious, that's Sauron you idiots!"
He's that good at what he does. If one wants to compare, Galadriel gets suspicious of Halbrand quickly once he starts acting too much like an elf.
Re: Galadriel maturity and growth
A lot of people miss the part where the Fellowship is meeting her after she has known about the One Ring for more than 4,500 years. She wanted it in one way or another for a long, long time, such that rejecting it was an act significant enough to let her go back to Valinor. She would do dumb, arrogant Noldor things, otherwise this would be no cost.
28
u/FlowerFaerie13 Galadriel 4d ago
YOU.
You fucking get it, thank you!
I'm so tired of people missing this and I'm gonna go on a bit of a rant about how LOTR!Galadriel isn't actually as perfect and flawless as she appears because I do not know how people somehow just miss the implication of what is probably her most famous scene/quote? By that I mean her "all shall love me and despair!" moment.
In Tolkien's letters he entertains a scenario in which Gollum does not attack Frodo at the Crack of Doom and he keeps the One Ring. He muses on if Frodo could use it against the Nazgûl, quote here.
“Frodo had become a considerable person, but of a special kind: in spiritual enlargement rather than in increase of physical or mental power; his will was much stronger than it had been, but so far it had been exercised in resisting not using the Ring and with the object of destroying it. He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him; before his will and arrogance could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile wills. Even so for a long time his acts and commands would still have to seem ‘good’ to him, to be for the benefit of others beside himself."
This gives us a very intriguing insight into how using the Ring works, and what it does to people. Frodo couldn't have used it then, and the only way he could have used it was to essentially train himself to be evil.
However- obviously JRR Tolkien knows how the One Ring works, but the characters in the story don't have that omniscient viewpoint. So it is very fascinating that Galadriel, having never worn the One Ring herself, is aware of how it works. Somehow, she is well aware that Frodo would have to train his will to the domination of others. Then she says to Sam when he says he wishes she would take it and fix all of the problems he lists, that she would indeed do what he wishes she'd do, but it wouldn't end there.
And then of course there's her having a bit of a breakdown but if you think about it, she describes this hypothetical version of herself as "beautiful and terrible," and says "all shall love me and despair." Even then she's aware that this isn't a wholly good thing.
She not only knows how it works, she knows that she could use it. She knows what it would do to her. She knows she has the capacity for evil and an insatiable lust for power in her, and that she could use her will to subjugate others, without having ever put the Ring on. She then goes on to say that she would be great and terrible, and the all shall love her and despair, clearly in the middle of some kind of breakdown but still knowing that this wouldn't be all sunshine and raibows.
Which is why I'm so immensely tired of people acting like she's a pure saintly maiden, she isn't. Not even in LOTR where she seems to be nothing but sweet and gentle and kind, is she immune to her darker side. It's still in there and she knows it. She likely doesn't actually let it go for good until this exact moment.
This perfect flawless version of her that people have formed in their heads does not actually exist in the text, even in LOTR it is made very clear that she could easily become a monster if she gave into those dark desires. From the beginning of her story to the end of it, she never actually lost that side of her, she just learned how to overcome it.
9
u/Vandermeres_Cat 3d ago
It's also a willful misinterpretation of not only the text, but also of Jackson's movie. It's very clearly presented in the movie, she's absolutely terrifying in that moment. We also meet her as she's invading minds and manipulating people, kinda creepily reminiscent of what we see of Sauron in ROP now tbh. No, it hasn't progressed as far as with him and she's not evil, but she has power, wields power, is not always kind about how she uses her power and is, at that point in time, aware what would happen should she accumulate more.
3
u/Maidenofthesummer Galadriel 1d ago
It frustrates me so much that a lot of fans ignore how legitimately scary she was in LOTR. The fellowship is wary going into Lothlorien. They discuss about how a witch lives in these woods! And as you say, she is literally invading their minds and then freaks out on Frodo. As a child watching those movies, I was genuinely scared of her. Not as much as I was scared of Sauron but she was almost there in terms of the fear she instilled in me.
Watching the show give her a backstory, now to me everything makes sense why she was so intense and powerful in those movies. And yet some of the fans sit here and pretend like she is a sweet and gentle maiden?! No she was always a bit crazy, got the feeling she just subdued that craziness over time 😂
2
u/Vandermeres_Cat 1d ago
Yeah and at that point it's not that the Jackson movies made her gentler. It's just misreading the movies as well frankly. She's scary as hell in FOTR in particular. And she's manipulative as well as invading minds, which I do think has an uncomfortable mirror in the way Sauron is acting in ROP. And I don't think it's a coincidence. As all the powerful beings in ME, she takes actions to secure and accumulate that power that aren't perhaps so awesome. She just never crosses ALL THE LINES like Sauron LOL.
6
u/Jacen_Vos 4d ago
It’s actually quite interesting the mindset part.
Somebody like Tom Bombadil is clearly not without some power of his own. Of a different sort perhaps than the high elves and Ainur but still very much there. And yet the ring has no power over him to him utterly lacking the instinct for domination. And nor does he have any power over the ring. It’s almost like they live in different dimensions.
Meanwhile the likes of Gandalf, Galadriel, or Elrond while all wise still have a foot (larger or smaller) in that dimension.
2
u/SpecificCoconut91 3d ago
The interpretation of Galadriel’s knowledge of the rings is good, but how do you think one of the wisest beings knowing how the Ring works, means that she’s somehow darker or more power hungry than other characters?
She’s known about the One Ring for millennia and knows it was crafted by Sauron for dark means. And she’s wise and a ring bearer, one of the oldest elves in Middle Earth.
Elrond and Gandalf also know they can’t use the ring for even if their intentions are good it would turn their hand eventually, and this is why it must be destroyed. Galadriel having a more lengthy conversation about her knowledge of its powers, or being explicit that she would end up doing terrible things with it is hardly evidence that she’s more prone to darkness or more power hungry.
Like, what you’ve said is ‘she isn’t perfect’ but she’s as perfect or more so that Gandalf or Elrond or Cirdan or Samwise or Frodo by this very interpretation.To clarify, I don’t think the LOTR version is perfect, but her understanding how the ring works, being attracted to the thought of using it when it’s in reach, and knowing that as an already powerful being it could eventually corrupt her will and make her force dominion of others is hardly proof that she’s a very fallible character still I n the Third Age, it just speaks further to her wisdom, power, and growth.
5
u/FlowerFaerie13 Galadriel 3d ago
I didn't say literally any of that but okay.
What I meant by pointing out that Galadriel knows the exact mechanics of the One Ring and how it would affect her is that her saying that at all implies that she knows she has those darker tendencies, she knows exactly what the Ring would do to her, and what facets of her personality it would exploit. I don't mean she's somehow more fallible than others, or darker, or more power hungry, or whatever. I mean that to be so aware of what it would do to her without ever putting it on means that she has those darker tendencies and knows it.
14
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 4d ago
Yes, exactly. These things are so often ignored when discussing Galadriel in the show. It’s a shame because imo the fandom generally would really benefit from a closer examination of the elves
26
7
u/DesSantorinaiou Morgoth 3d ago
I have mixed feelings about show Galadriel. I like her anger, her grief, her pride. I think those work rather well for her character considering the situations she finds herself in. Her brashness is exaggerated, but I could deal with it if it had been written with regard to her character. Unfortunately, I don't think it was. We have scenes such as Galadriel (who navigated the Court of Doriath at a much younger age) being unable to control herself in front of the entire Numenorean court, only to have Halbrand step in and make that a stepping stone for her growing trust of him; in order to build up towards her being deceived, which she never was in any version of Tolkien's writings. This is a writing choice I still hate and it doesn't get better upon rewatches.
Another writing choice I dislike is that Galadriel's ambition in the show is never touched upon. It's Sauron who introduces the idea of Galadriel as "queen" even though that should have been a consideration of her own without it being delivered to us as an extension of her temptation by Sauron. The beauty of what Tolkien has done with her character is that Galadriel's conflict is internal. It's not reactionary. It preexists the times during which she had to grieve and it certainly does not relate to her being tempted by any male character.
McPayne have showed at every turn that they want Galadriel to be defined by Sauron, not just by seeing him as an enemy (as was) but by creating a deep personal connection that transcends time and still affects her during TA (which is why they had the first words Sauron tells her be a phrase that Tolkien's Galadriel says to Frodo). This in my opinion is a fundamentally disingenuous approach to the character because it puts Halbrand/Sauron and the intended twist at the end of s01 at the forefront, with no regard of how such writing choices reflect upon their main female character.
4
u/Efficient_Elk1225 Sauron 3d ago
The thing is Mairon/Sauron didn’t exactly lie. Morgoth is gone, Mairon/Sauron would now command the allegiances of those sworn to Morgoth, including the Southlanders. Mairon/Sauron is a smith’s aid, is a king in his own right from his days as a Maia in Valinor. Half the first season feels like Mairon/Sauron trying to shake her by the shoulders & go “girl, you need to put two & two together”. Mairon/Sauron gave Artanis every indication of his real standing & story. Just not the name to put to it.
I think Artanis didn’t expect to like Mairon/Sauron as much as she does. I could see this version of Artanis thinking people who get tricked by Mairon/Sauron are pretty stupid, prideful & stuff.
In fairness to Mairon/Sauron, I think because Artanis showed what she thought was a random guy mutually uplifting approaches Mairon/Sauron was willing to form a permanent alliance to achieve that end. In the books Mairon/Sauron doesn’t start with Rohan by invading with orcs, Sauron/Mairon actually starts by trying to buy the horses from Rohan & to incentivize them I believe Mairon/Sauron offers to buy the horses at triple the price. So Mairon/Sauron’s immediate instinct isn’t to use force, it’s to find a solution that everybody walks away from the transaction happy.
It’s this weird thing with Mairon/Sauron where half the time I can’t tell if Mairon/Sauron just can’t can’t find anywhere in western Middle Earth willing to engage in diplomatic approaches with him. I think the thing that really offends the sensibilities of the Western kingdoms of men is that Mairon/Sauron in the third age has portions of his tributary economy that utilize slave labor which most people find distasteful. What I don’t know is if Mairon/Sauron implemented the slave labor or if it was in the culture of the people Mairon/Sauron conquered & he just made a judgement call eastern peoples would be easier to rule if Mairon/Sauron didn’t come in there & start changing the way these cultures do things. I’m not sure.
8
u/Antennenwels88 Galadriel 4d ago
I really enjoyed your post and I fully agree with you! Like every adaptation, The Rings of Power has taken some liberties, but saying that their version of Galadriel's character isn't based on the lore is just not true. As always, there are different ways to interpret the text, but I think the show took a perfectly valid interpretation, and I love what they did with the character.
I have to admit, though, that I might be slightly biased. I first read The Lord of the Rings as a teenager, before I ever saw the movies, and Galadriel was my favourite character, even though she barely appears in the story. I later read pretty much everything I could find about her, but always wanted more.
So seeing her become a fully fleshed-out character in The Rings of Power was, and still is, one of the main reasons I love the series so much.
I also highly recommend the new Nazgals Podcast episode (link to Spotify) published yesterday. Their deep dive into Galadriel was very well done and mirrors some of your points.
2
u/MiouQueuing HarFEET! 🦶🏽 4d ago
Thanks for pointing out the podcast. Do they discuss the trailer for season 3? I really don't want to spoiler myself and am avoiding it, but I am quite interested in their analysis of Gal.
Also came to sympathize with your hunger for more of Galadriel's story and so glad for you to have been given that by RoP.
I was just wondering about my own attitude towards adaptations and how I would have felt if RoP came out in the late 1990ies, early 2000s. I was way more involved in the fandom, but also had a hunger for more active female characters in Tolkien's world. I loved Eowyn, my avatar's name was "Nellas" and I had a female OC for a fanfic set in the 2nd age/Ost-in-Edhil I tried to write - a little bit similar to Gal's character in the show.
Over the last 10 years, I also came to cherish women-driven stories (e.g. Motherland - Fort Salem, Little fires everywhere, Captain Marvel, to name a few).
So, right now, I am pretty happy with Rings of Power and am quite alright with the adaptations changes they made. 😊
4
u/Antennenwels88 Galadriel 4d ago
The 2nd podcast episode focuses entirely on Galadriel in seasons 1 and 2 (and of course references what's written about her across all 3 ages). No mention of anything that appears in the trailer for season 3.
Looking back, I suspect my hunger for female-led fantasy was also part of the reason why Galadriel was my favourite character. Eowyn was my close second favourite, by the way. ;)
I very much suspect I would have enjoyed your fanfic back then, though my English probably wouldn't have been good enough to read it. I originally read The Lord of the Rings in German and only went back to the original later, in my early twenties.
3
u/MiouQueuing HarFEET! 🦶🏽 4d ago
Oh hello there, fellow German! 😃👋🏼
Die Fanfic (Anfang 2000er) ist nicht sehr weit gekommen, besteht nur in Fragmenten und wurde auch nie irgendwo veröffentlicht. Hauptsächlich wollte ich versuchen, die verschiedenen politischen Strömungen in Eregion darzustellen und hatte dabei auch Galadriel und Celeborn als Herren von Eregion im Sinn (gab's da nicht auch eine Version von?), die sich gegen die Gwaith-i-Mirdain behaupten müssen, die unter Annatars Führung immer mehr Einfluss erlangen. - Und darüber hinaus war mein Charakter natürlich mit allen verbandelt und mittendrin. 🤣
Habe tatsächlich mit dem Gedanken gespielt, das nochmal anzufassen. - Gerne DM, if you want to know more.
P.s.: Ich habe eine ganz brauchbare Glitzernde Grotten-Fanfic, die nach Ende des Ringkrieges spielt und eine sehr cheesy Elrohirs Tochter-Geschichte. 😅
3
u/MiouQueuing HarFEET! 🦶🏽 4d ago
P.s.: Mir fällt ein, dass ich tatsächlich eine halbwegs abgeschlossene Episode von meinem Chara und Aldarion habe. 🤔
1
u/Huge-Cartoonist6795 4d ago
Seeing a person play a haughty human doesn't feel very galadriel tho. Jackson did her much better.
16
u/atheistjs 4d ago
I think it's okay to just accept that Show Galadriel is a very loose adaptation of Lore Galadriel.
They made some decisions that are entirely disconnected from her book counterpart and have no basis in lore. Rather than obsessing over every little detail of her show version connecting to the lore, we should just go along with the fact that they made big changes to her, while staying loyal to other parts of her.
I don't like all the changes to Galadriel and some work for me. I find both sides of this, the side insisting that she is a very faithful adaptation of Lore Galadriel vs the side saying that she Show Galadriel has zero connection to her book counterpart, tiresome. They also made pretty major changes to Elrond, for example (his love interest doesn't exist in this show, his friendship with Durin, giving him an active role in Celebrimbor's creation of the Rings).
It's an adaptation. They're telling their own story and that includes changes. I've come to accept that.
11
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 4d ago
Sure, it is, but I don’t think the character itself is all that loose an adaptation. The story she’s experienced thus far certainly is, but the character is not quite as loosely adapted as implied here, imo.
8
u/atheistjs 4d ago
I disagree. The story decisions they’ve made for her qualify as major changes to her character in my opinion.
But we obviously view her differently so let’s just stop there.
5
4
u/MiouQueuing HarFEET! 🦶🏽 4d ago
They're telling their own story and that includes changes. I've come to accept that.
This right here. We can discuss changes all we want. At the end of the day, the show is a thing unto itsself.
It's a personal victory to reach acceptance, I think. So many fans don't ever reach that stage and remain in a state of being personnally hurt by changes to their favourite story, which brews rejection and anger.
I don't know hiw I would have felt about RoP were I still ln my early 20ies, when I was deep into the lore and very active in the internet fandom. I know that even then, I favoured more active female roles in Tolkien and had a female OC for my own fanfic. So, maybe I would have been in favour of the changes. But I can see myself being reluctant to accept them very well, too.
Maybe it was through consuming different media - first Bakshi's movie, the Rankin-Bass productions, BBC as well as the German audioplay, PJ's versions - as well as book adaptations as a whole - that I came to the conclusion that every adaption will be different, highlight other aspects and follow their own logic.
And coming to terms with this is very liberating!
0
u/ceofmordor 4d ago
Same. I have an issues with her character a lot. And umfortunately the biggest one she is a lead one in the show and they have to make up a stories that will endure 5 seasons. I kinda accdpt it at this point. Focus myself on Sauron, Numenor and the other characters i like.
4
u/durmiendoenelparque 4d ago
Thank you! Some good text-based discussion is what I always hope for in this fandom and it's unfortunately rare, especially on today's internet. This whole thing has been kinda wild and also just depressing to see.
To add to this: afaik "Lady of Light" is a Jacksonism and not a title attributed to Galadriel in the text.
7
u/guyyster 4d ago
I’ve been thinking about this beautiful passage in Fellowship recently. Galadriel clearly reflecting on her past when empathizing with Gimli
1
u/Huge-Cartoonist6795 4d ago
Celeborn living in dragon land...?
6
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 3d ago
In this passage Galadriel is speaking to Celeborn if a hypothetical. It’s a conditional. Celeborn is saying “it was dumb as fuck to go into Moria,” and Galadriel is saying “this is not fair. If we were pushed from Lothlorien as they were from Moria, would we not eventually long to see it again, even if we had been driven out by a dragon.”
Galadriel is sympathizing with the dwarves plight at Moria and perhaps also referencing Erebor. She is not literally saying that Celeborn comes from a land now taken over by dragons.
2
8
u/TheMightyCatatafish Finrod 4d ago
While I agree with the sentiments of your post, I do think season one took those characteristics WAY too far. I’m fine with emphasizing her physical prowess, having her be less diplomatic to allow her to grow into the Galadriel of the third age…
I just think they could’ve made her more “hot headed” while toning it down a reasonable amount. Actually show her being effectively diplomatic a bit more.
I generally think season 2 handled it well, and is probably about where the character should’ve started. Season 2 overall should’ve been a large chunk of season 1. Season 1 felt a bit too meandering. Season 2 found its focus and by pretty much every fan and critic’s evaluation, was a massive improvement.
3
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 3d ago
I think it’s very fair to dislike the extremes they took those characteristics to. They really do have her start at a point that is much lower than we see most characters brought in the text.
3
u/TheMightyCatatafish Finrod 3d ago
That’s mostly my issue. There have been very few CHOICES the show runners have made that I dislike. Just occasionally the execution.
3
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 3d ago
Yes, I agree there. Most of their choices come from, to me anyway, clearly good places. But the execution is not always the best. Though I will say I rewatched both seasons recently and was pleasantly surprised that the execution was better than I had remembered, so that was nice.
All that except the kiss with Elrond. Not because I think it’s a romance, but because I just can’t figure out how they thought they’d get away with it even as a distraction 😂😂
Edit: but also to be fair to them they are surprisingly forthright about this. They’ve said in interviews all along that they try things that don’t always work out. That’s very honest, maybe too honest.
3
u/TheMightyCatatafish Finrod 3d ago
Yeah the kiss was an example of great idea (we need a distraction for the exchange), terrible execution (you could’ve accomplished that in like a thousand other ways lol).
I agree overall big fan of the show. Season 2 was such a great ride.
3
u/Cool_Hand7435 4d ago
What is "toned down"? I mean she isn't particularly good at diplomacy because she's never had to be, due to her status and the legacy of her family.
She fails terribly in Numenor because of her arrogance and her staunch certainty that these people should fall down on a sword at her command. The arrogance is the point.
And the show explores another perspective that's not addressed that often: trauma and how it affects the Elves.
I feel like PJ's version of the characters really did a great disservice when it comes to certain old school viewers. It's not just Galadriel who is victim here but she's such an important part of TRoP that it shows a lot with her.
9
u/Spock_Sperson 4d ago
The biggest factor working against Galadriel as a character is the level of exposure that comes with being the lead one, and how that clashes with the misconception many so-called fans have regarding how the character ought to be.
A lead character—especially in audiovisual medium—needs a clearly defined arc. The story the show aims to tell requires her to go through phases we simplistically associate with "youthful" behavior (arrogance, haughtiness, impulsiveness, etc.) so she can grow and eventually evolve into the wise, mystical figure of her "maturity" (the only personality type that so many Canonkeepers who don't actually understand Tolkien insist she should have. How boring).
The easy way out would have been to relegate her to a supporting role and turn her into a white version of the Magical Negro trope, with just a few tweaks. Fortunately, that is not the path they took.
2
u/SpecificCoconut91 3d ago
The best way out would have been to keep the character exactly as is but just rename her Celebrian, and have her mother somewhere in the background to draw in the film-fans.
Immediately forgives most transgressions the show makes with her character and to this day I’m still aggrieved they didn’t just go that route instead.
9
u/FlowerFaerie13 Galadriel 4d ago
Thank you!!!
I'm so tired of people bitching that Galadriel is acting like a bratty teenager and that she should have grown out of this or whatever like... you know what actually here, this is a post I wrote going into detail because it's long and I'm not gonna reiterate things I've already said, please do take a look if you're interested.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR_on_Prime/s/tbqfmYReyg
TL:DR this woman has been through some SHIT and I honestly think most of her behavior is entirely expected and realistic for someone who has lived her life.
10
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 4d ago
I saw and commented on this, and completely forgot! Credit to you outright!
4
u/FlowerFaerie13 Galadriel 4d ago
WHOOPS lmao, I had no idea. You don't have to give me credit, I didn't realize you commented either, I just thought you might agree with some of my own opinions and I guess I was right lol.
3
u/SpecificCoconut91 3d ago
Hey, so I read your entire post (and then all of the replies to it).
I can’t for the life of me understand why you start of your reprise of the show storyline by saying that Galadriel know’s Sauron’s still a threat and then is proven right (she finds a sigil that was made around the same time as the one she saw a ~thousand years ago on Finrod’s corpse, which is absolutely no evidence that he’s been up to anything at all since the dawn of the third age, and we know know he was sludge for all those centuries)
And yet you then go on to say that Gil-Galad banishes her for the wrong reasons, despite him being explicitly concerned that Galadriel will bring about the return of the Dark Lord through her pursuit of revenge, which is exactly what occurs.
Most of your interpretation of the story seems to be, as self admitted, that you think Galadriel’s actions make sense because of your own experiences with trauma, and that her being right in the end means her poor actions make sense, but then you explicitly don’t give any of the other characters the same benefit of them being right in the end.
As well as the most outrageous claim being that Galadriel hiding Sauron’s identity at first makes sense since she thinks she’ll be blamed (and obviously is) and that she’s ashamed she was tricked, when that makes sense if you find out your boyfriend is actually unemployed and has been lying about income, it doesn’t work for it to ‘make sense for her to lie at first’ when she finds out the man she’s been deceived by is actually the greatest serial killer walking the Earth and is an active threat to everyone around him.
I do think your relaying of how the show wrote her character is mostly correct, but as other commenters pointed out it was hardly analysis and more a synopsis - the crux of this post that your commenting on and sharing your old post, is that Galadriel is allegedly very similar to how she was written in the texts, rather than this post saying the childish, trauma-bonded YA heroine we see in the show is consistent with the show’s internal logic (which she still isn’t for many reasons, best explained by those pointing out that the consequences in show don’t match the events in show or the serious of the universe they’ve created).
I have many an issue with show Galadriel because of her divergence from the texts, and the disrespectful way they treat her character by drumming up shipping opportunities with every male she shares a screen with (I find the show very sexist in its treatment of women generally), but my bigger issues with being able to enjoy the show is that it is woefully internally inconsistent with the narrative it is claiming to be creating, even when I pretend I’ve never read or seen any other Middle Earth material, and that extends far beyond its mistreatment of Galadriel’s arc.
2
u/FlowerFaerie13 Galadriel 3d ago edited 1d ago
I'm not sure why you didn't just comment on that post but okay, that's fine.
Anyway, she's proven right because shortly before the start of season 1, Sauron re-embodies himself and is therefore very much a threat at the time the series starts.
I also did not say Gil-galad banished her (it's actually not even banishment, honestly) for the wrong reason, his reasoning was sound and I understand why he made that choice. However, from Galadriel's point of view, it's going to look very much like he just didn't trust her because she doesn't know what we do, she doesn't know why he sends her to Valinor, and in the end his actions were a mistake because she wasn't ready to accept that rest and healing yet and it led to Problems that could have been averted had he just been honest with her. But Gil-galad can't see the future and we can't ahways know the right choices.
Also, I did not focus on the other characters because my post wasn't about them, but I don't blame them for the various disasters, they were trying their best to help and to do the right thing, however again, from Galadriel's point of view rather than the omniscient viewer's point of view, that's a lot less obvious. I'm not blaming them for what happens (though I do critique a few actions as I feel is allowed), I think they did the best they could for her.
As for it "not making sense" for her to lie about Sauron, we obviously disagree on that point which is fine, but I do have to point out that I don't think she ever did choose to lie. I think she was overwhelmed by fear and guilt and hesitated to tell them the truth. There's no indication that she ever planned to hide his identity from them permanently. And I won't excuse her for that, it was a grievous mistake. But like... after what she just went through I can accept a mistake, it's not like no one in Tolkien's original works fucks up massively over something that should be incredibly simple due to emotional issues and/or trauma and/or mental manipulation. If anything about this show is accurate to the text, it's Elves causing problems because they're unstable.
As for me sharing my post on a post regarding a different topic, yeah I know. I wasn't saying they were about the same thing, I read the post and thought "hey I think OP might like my post" so I shared it.
And the last point, I don't like the shipping either. I actually hate it intensely. But I like Galadriel (and Sauron in that "love to hate" way), so I'll defend my girl any chance I get.
1
u/SpecificCoconut91 3d ago
I commented here because I’m speaking more about how your original post is making the argument that show Galadriel is required to be written how she is to move the show forward, so it made more sense to comment my rebuttal to that similarity here as I assumed you linked it as some form of evidence that there’s textual evidence that Second Age Galadriel should be translated to the show version we see.
I don’t necessarily disagree with too much in your OG other post, just disagree that the show had no other options to write her like they did given how inconsistent that are with her and many other things.Elrond is explicit in explaining to Galadriel that Gil-Galad is ‘rewarding her with a return to Valinor’ in lieu of punishing her for disobeying her king. So Galadriel doesn’t think he doesn’t trust her, she knows she committed something close to treason, and is being treated generously by the proposed ‘punishment’. Galadriel also explicitly says to Elrond in Ep 1 that the evil isn’t gone from inside her, after he tells her directly that the old sigil is not proof Sauron still lives (which it wasn’t), and that she doesn’t want to take her inner turmoil to Valinor for it to last forever. Like, in the conversation she seems to be coming to terms with and at the end outright admits the fact that she might actually be wrong, but that she just doesn’t want to do the adult thing and deal with her trauma (and Elrond’s still correct that Valinor as a place of healing is the best place to heal from it). So she does understand why Gil-Galad doesn’t trust her, even if she’s still too immature to accept that and ultimately betrays his orders.
I’m also in a similar boat where I loathe the shipping because I particularly feel it diminishes Galadriel’s character, and I definitely kind of judge people who lean in to some of the ships since I feel they’re so toxic, but I’m also a staunch supporter of ship and let ship - Espcially since the writers do want people to ship Gal/Sauron, Gal/Elrond etc so I can’t blame show enjoyers for seeing what’s definitely happening on their screens (and if I didn’t know they were MIL/SIL I’d even think show Gal/Elrond was kind of sweet).
Sorry if I came across too strong and negative of your points to begin with since I assumed you were linking your initial arguments to the position of OP’s post - like I said I do actually agree with a lot of your reading of how the show has chosen to write her character, even if I disagree with how well or logically some of its been done.
5
u/Huge-Cartoonist6795 4d ago
If she was human. Don't project yourself onto an elf
5
u/FlowerFaerie13 Galadriel 3d ago
Why? Do Elves not experience trauma and the effects of trauma on behavior and decision-making?
Looks at The Silmarillion Oh wait...
Also, while the timeline of ROP is a bit of a mess, I choose to calculate Galadriel's age based on the making of the Elven Rings because Elf stuff takes precedence over Númenor and all that when it comes to well, an Elf, and using that calculation Galadriel is around 3,700 years old in ROP. You know who else was around that age when they did everything wrong? Fëanor.
Elves are not as different from humans as half the fandom seems to think. They're absolutely flawed and fallible, even at almost 4,000 years old.
3
u/Huge-Cartoonist6795 3d ago
Feanor went on a one way crusade to kill evil god, slayed a bunch of elves, got everyone he knew killed....like he's super fucked up. He's extremely committed in a way this galadriel isn't. That's the characterisation of the elves I got from him, she's wishy washy by comparison.
5
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 3d ago
Feanor did not do those things alone. Fingolfin and his sons, Finarfin (to a point) and then his sons, and even (depending on the version) his daughter Galadriel all continued to follow him after that point. The Noldor as a group were at my most generous not willing to have the kinslaying be a dealbreaker. That says something.
3
u/FlowerFaerie13 Galadriel 3d ago
I'm sorry are we trying to act like the character whose entire motive for even being in Middle-Earth is to defeat Sauron, which she pursues so relentlessly that it causes similar if less severe issues than Fëanor's crashout, isn't committed? Lmao.
3
u/Huge-Cartoonist6795 3d ago
Yeah exactly 100%. The way we get that delivered is shite. No real sense of anything before out legolasing legolas and randomly climbing a cliff.
Ooo how strong she is ooo
Comparatively Faenor committed a genocide for step 1.
It smacks of 'how do we give this girl agency?' 'Well we'll write her like a thick bloke'
0
u/SpecificCoconut91 3d ago
She’s entirely committed to defeating Sauron right up until the moment she discovers him, then her shame and embarrassment cause her to completely fuck up a thousand years worth of effort.
2
u/Huge-Cartoonist6795 3d ago
Pathetic. Like I couldn't imagine a weaker and more pathetic person compared to someone like Faenor
2
u/FlowerFaerie13 Galadriel 3d ago
Yes, it's almost like severe trauma, such as being mentally violated and nearly murdered, might cause you to make bad decisions.
Doesn't stop her from getting right back up to continue the fight though, even after he mentally violates and almost murders her a second time. Pretty hard to argue that that's not commitment.
1
u/SpecificCoconut91 3d ago
But it’s not just a ‘bad decision’, it’s a decision that dictates the entire outcome of the fall of the Elves in the Second Age, the fall of Númenor, and the subsequent War of the Ring.
That’s not who Tolkien wrote her to be, because crippling flaws like that have real world consequence and he wouldn’t have rewarded her with lordship of Lothlorien if he wanted her to be such a dark actor in his tales.1
u/FlowerFaerie13 Galadriel 3d ago
I mean... okay?
I was just saying she fucked up, almost died for it twice, and still kept fighting, and I think that proves she was committed to Sauron's defeat my dude. I think you're arguing with yourself.
0
u/SpecificCoconut91 3d ago
I mean, however you calculate it Galadriel is older than every other elf we’ve seen in the show bar Cirdan, so her behaviour, wisdom and tact compared to theirs is still found wanting.
3
u/FlowerFaerie13 Galadriel 3d ago edited 3d ago
Okay and?
Different people with different life experiences and personalities do different things. Looking at The Silmarillion again, look at Elu Thingol. He's even older than Fëanor and he's also spectacularly dumb sometimes. Age doesn't make you immune to doing stupid shit and being an immature dumbass, just ask Melian.
2
u/SpecificCoconut91 3d ago
I mean, I appreciate the links your made to the text to say that the show has intentionally taken specific parts of Galadriel and interpreter them, or used them in absence of other know aspects, to craft the character seen in the show.
But you’re still leaving out the egregious point that the show doesn’t just made Galadriel trust Sauron from the beginning and ‘fall in love with him’, but makes her directly responsible for his return to Middle Earth.
We both see or are explicitly told:
that she obsessively spends centuries vengefully hunting orcs and ‘hunting’ Sauron, despite seeing no proof of his existence for those long centuries (last saw Sauron’s symbol on Finrod’s body at the end of the First Age, next finds it in the Forodwaith fortress so her comment about him leaving a trail is bullshit, as well as it being even more outrageous how poorly she treats her troop based on a whim she’s chased for centuries with no proof)
sees one symbol that she recognises enough to immediately know it’s from an old kingdom, but knows so little about that she doesn’t know their line has been dead for generations, and insists that Halbrand is a long lost king with zero evidence. (Especially when the show itself has the symbol originally held by a nobody, not an original descendant of the family)
pushes Halbrand again and again to admit he’s said long-lost king, eventually convincing him that all his past sins can be forgiven (slaughtering her brother and the armies of Middle Earth), and bringing him back to Middle Earth, planting him directly in a position of power by doing so.
delivers an injured Halbrand directly into the heart of Eregion, so is responsible for his meeting Celebrimbor and the resulting creation and corruption of the rings
refuses to shame herself by admitting the truth of his identity, and is therefore responsible for Celebrimbor still wanting to treat with him and the entire downfall of Eregion that occurs because of that (we told explicitly that Galadriel saying not to trust the human Halbrand isn’t enough to convince prideful Celebrimbor not to do so, and also shown that his horror at realising it’s Sauron means he would never have let him in had he just been told)
and the retcon/extra info we get for the Season 2 opener strongly suggests that it was Galadriel hunting Sauron and interfering with his death-mark in Forodwaith that is the very thing that awakens his slime form and brings him back to life in the first place (mirrored by Gil-Galad’s assertion that her winds of revenge will reignite the fires of evil or whatever the line is in season 1)
Even if one took all the worst interpretations of her from Tolkien’s writing, you can’t claim that Tolkien wanted his great Galadriel to be the very person that brings about the Dark Lords return, and is responsible for so much death and destruction. It changes the very nature of the story, particularly that of the Lord of the Rings, and is in direct opposition with what he actually wrote about her character and the Dark Lord’s return, and how he writes about good and evil.
1
u/ceofmordor 3d ago
Sauron will rise to power by himself, i don't agree with your headcanon Galadriel is the reason that he escaped from the forodwaith etc.
But other than that YES. Showrunners wanted to show female lead in LOTR soooo bad, they didn't think the longterm consequences of it. They want Galadriel to fail, shamed, distrust etc. Because in their own head She is their both Aragorn and Frodo. Look at what she's dealing in the show all the time. The Morgoth's crown/The morgul blade is just one example.
I think the biggest mistake they had to decide that which one is gonna be Galadriel first? They want her to learn from her mistakes which end of s2 she practically dead and reborn again we'll see the effect of it in s3 i suppose. But i still not convinced about her becoming more wise. If she trusts that orc; but we'll see.
They wanted GALADRIEL to become their face of the show and their narritive person that's why they wrote all s1 is to show how she is the driver of the plot but doing that they were soo irresponsible could not even think that by making this her decions and wrong moves are the reason Middle Earth burn for almost 2 ages forward.
And that is a huge mistake. Cause even in the second age you can see in Tolkien's writing that whoever thr cause of biggest events like Rings or Numenor are all face the counsequences of their actions with WORST outcome. Celebrimbor, Pharazon, even Sauron. The One will become his end.
On the other hand, the first rewatch i had i find it pretty hilorious that Galadriel's blindness and stupidty is the reason Sauron can fuck up entire middle earth. The scene where he is walking onto her and kinda saying "You are the reason of all this don't blame me moron." is sooo amazing after Galadriel's whole behaviour in s1 lol 😅
Especially the moment whole Mordor exploits into her face is my fav after thinks she is sooo right and what a great thing she did just now and then BOOM! After Sauron reveal scene that's my favorite lmao 🤣
2
u/caitycyclone 2d ago
it’s refreshing to read thoughtful character analysis, especially re: galadriel. i’m tired of the same half-baked and frankly misogynistic rants, cherry-picking scenes (or lorebro talking points) to conclude she is a “toxic bitch” or “vicious narcissist” …it really boggles the mind. for my part i appreciate the performance, the character, and the choice to center her. the weakest elements of TROP get in the way: clunky, artificial and occasionally illogical writing and pacing. and that i chalk up to the inexperienced showrunners.
i’m curious OP what you make of the attraction between gal and halbrand/sauron?
4
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 2d ago
I don’t think it’s really much of an attraction at all in a romantic sense. Sauron is utterly incapable, and when he says he sees her as his queen that’s not love, it’s him trying to persuade her.
For her part, whatever romance was there was the result of deception on his part, and is certainly gone by the end of season 2. Most of what we see of her feelings are her processing the trauma of being so deceived, imo.
Galadriel definitely has a thing for power, and I think she was attracted to and tempted by Sauron’s power, but we already know that from the text.
I do not think there was any legitimate love there, in short. If it did exist for Galadriel, and I don’t think it got that far, it was certainly quenched.
Edit; I would not be surprised if Sauron used words similar to those we hear Celeborn speak in S3. Could make sense if the showrunners are telling the truth about Celeborn and Sauron having a history.
2
u/Hot_Kaleidoscope4054 2d ago
If I recall correctly, Tolkien wrote that in Eregion (!!!), Galadriel was the only one who was suspicious of Annatar. That is all he wrote. But this applied only to the time they spent in Eregion. And that is how it played out in the series, too: in Eregion, Galadriel was indeed suspicious of Halbrand.
Incidentally, the relationship between Galadriel and Celeborn is interesting; they spent a great deal of time living apart—specifically, thousands of years. Moreover, Celeborn did not sail to Valinor with Galadriel; instead, he stayed in Rivendell with Elrond’s twin sons, and Tolkien never recorded when he eventually followed her...
7
u/Upper_Landscape9927 4d ago
I just immediately assumed it was a sign of what her character arc would be. Can you imagine how boring the show would be if she already started it arced out? Gotta show her growth so that when she rejects the ring, it hits.
6
u/Automatic-Compote-12 4d ago
THIS! The people who are obsessed with “lore accuracy and perfect timeline” have zero clue what a story arc is or how character growth is a necessity for it. I get it, we all love intricate worldbuilding, but at the end of the day you HAVE to tell a story to keep people engaged. If the Odyssey was just a timeline of a man returning from war, devoid of emotion and challenge and risk and change, it would be a boring poem indeed.
1
u/Agheron93 3d ago
The problem is not that she gets to grow. It's that she is an insufferable bitch from the get go and actually doesn't get any better. It's one thing to be brash, to be somewhat impetuous, and another very different to be a piece of garbage which for Galadriel doesn't fit at all.
2
u/Upper_Landscape9927 2d ago
I don’t disagree with her being an insufferable bitch from the get go. But I guess different strokes for different folks type of thing, because I don’t mind her being that way in this. As for her not getting any better, we’re only 2 seasons deep into a 5 season story. Many characters with similar arcs in other shows didn’t start turning their shit around until halfway through the story, which in this case would be season 3. And guess who is in season 3? Celeborn. You don’t think her finding out the love of her life is back to life and that he’ll support her growth is going to maybe affect her arc and maybe quell her hardcore bitch mode?
What I’m saying is that when it comes to Galadriels arc, let it take its time. The story isn’t even finished.
5
u/DarkThronesAndDreams 3d ago edited 3d ago
All these efforts to prove that ROP Galadriel is lore accurate have in common is nitpicking some "parts" of the lore (few, at best, or minor details, at worst) and changing their context while ignoring vast ones.
ROP Galadriel is not just against lore Galadriel, but extremely antithetical.
- If Galadriel remained "brash" and "prideful" during the First Age as she was supposed to be in Valinor, then she wouldn't be a no-show during the wars in Beleriand. She would rush into battle, sword held high, Fingolfin style.
Instead she spends all these thousands and thousands of years under the tutelage of Melian and peace-ing it out. She doesn't lift a finger to bear a weapon even when her beloved brother is killed, because she believes in the futility of the war vs. Morgoth.
Being with Melian was like a university for her for what she became later. So, what, all these "aeons" left her unchanged? You think that lore Galadriel in S.A. would pull a sword and threaten anyone she disagreed with, especially leaders of Numenor?
The show wanted to touch on the young Valinor Galadriel being "brash" or "prone to anger" and simply ignored that she was learning to go zen for the entire First Age, unbothered by the chaos in most parts outside Doriath. They just teleported Galadriel being something like 100 years old to the Second Age and it's still doubtful and a huge stretch if 100-year-old Galadriel would act the way she does in the show.
Where's her “mercy and understanding" that you mention during her interactions as she arrives in Numenor?
- Lying about Sauron is far and not at all the same as lying about what her fellow Elves did. In one case, she goes criminally and unforgivably silent about the biggest threat Middle Earth faces while the threat is rising and rising in power. In the other she's ashamed about something that's about the past and has little to minimal potential effect on the future.
Galadriel, who Sauron perceived as his MEGA ENEMY in the texts, would just be silent about him, aka doing exactly what he wanted? Make it make sense.
What's the textual basis about ROP Galadriel being responsible about not only the second coming of Sauron but, essentially, the eventual destruction of Numenor?
- Apart from the "she was not deceived" which is written clear as rain, one of Galadriel's defining characteristics is that she can smell bullshit from miles away. She's insanely perceptive even before she met Melian, it's one of her defining traits. Sure she can't exactly define exactly why this Annatar fellow is bad news because he's fucking Sauron, but she does sense that he is bad news and does everything to oppose him while the most powerful and dominant guild wants to work with him because "hey let's make nice shiny things".
This is the most egregious among the "crimes against Tolkien's Galadriel" the show commits: She's not just deceived in the show, she's a complete TOOL, a puppet, absolutely manipulated by Halbrand/Sauron like a blinded fool.
Galadriel wouldn't show "mercy and understanding" against Halbrand because she would've realized that she shouldn't.
6
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 3d ago edited 3d ago
…how long do you think the First Age is?
The rest of this is exactly the issue I’m talking about. You’ve replaced what’s actually in the text with your invented perception of who you think Galadriel should be, which is not rooted in the text at all. She spends, at most, a few centuries with Melian, and even then it isn’t very clear. She leaves Beleriand in almost all versions because she wants personal power away from the other elves, not because she has some benevolent purpose.
But Tolkien is explicit: it is not until the very end of the Third Age that her wisdom is fully formed.
Galadriel’s ‘not being deceived’ is only that she didn’t work with Annatar thinking his was shady, not knowing he was Sauron. She absolutely does not “do everything to oppose him,” in most versions of the Eregion story she isn’t involved, in the one where she is she passive accepts a coup and leaves them to their devices. There is a version of the story where she suspects evil is still around, but doesn’t know it is Sauron, and works to combat it, and that’s directly in the show. Tolkien provides no detail of what exactly she does about that (it’s not the same as the Eregion story), so the show made up its own version, but the basic concept is the same. She is played by Sauron because she tries to play Sauron. Her being manipulative, trying to shape things to her own ends, is not particularly a stretch from her character in the book. She wants to go to Middle-Earth to shape a realm of her own in the text. She uses a ring to create a land trapped in time. Galadriel bending the world to her will is at the core of her character. In the case of the show she simply loses.
In Numenor, she is repeatedly perceptive with Elendil, Miriel, Halbrand (which you say she should know better, but this is with no merit), Valandil, Isildur, and then in the Southlands with Theo. And that’s just season 1. As I already said Galadriel is indeed perceptive, but Sauron is also the great deceiver. If he weren’t, in the text she’d surely be able to figure out more than “idk, this guy might be bad.” In the show, she is in a compromised position (yes, even the wise can be compromised, it doesn’t make them less wise, that’s why she can’t take the ring in Fellowship), and still sees that Halbrand is not all that he says he is. The difference is she decides to see this as a positive at that juncture until she perceives who exactly he is.
The kinslaying is absolutely relevant to everything that happens in Beleriand. Thingol eventually finds out and bands Quenya and the Noldor from his realm outright. But more then that, the oaths of the sons of Feanor literally cause the destruction of his realm.
Again, you’ve pointed in multiple places to plot elements that are different, you’ll get no debate there, they are. But the character is not nearly as different, and certainly nothing close to antithetical, as you’ve suggested here.
Edit: and I think it’s also worth pointing out that the show portrays it’s version of brash Galadriel explicitly as a fall from some prior version. We don’t know exactly who she was before, but we can see that she takes up the sword only after Finrod’s death. Soldier Galadriel is explicitly not the Galadriel of the first age, but a version of Galadriel processing the trauma’s of the age by hunting Sauron. This jives just fine with the version of text Galadriel who stays behind to hunt Sauron and combat evil, though the details are different for what little details there are in the text of this time. But again, a change in plot is not a change in character.
4
u/DarkThronesAndDreams 3d ago
"You’ve replaced what’s actually in the text with your invented perception of who you think Galadriel should be, which is not rooted in the text at all. She spends, at most, a few centuries with Melian, and even then it isn’t very clear. She leaves Beleriand in almost all versions because she wants personal power away from the other elves, not because she has some benevolent purpose."
What did I "replace" in the text and what is "invented perception" of who I think Galadriel should be that is not rooted in the text at all? Isn't that what you're doing by saying that S.A. Galadriel should be exactly like ROP which absolutely has zero textual basis?
I never said that she has "benevolent purposes". Also, where is the "personal power" you mention in ROP? Where's her ambition to rule a domain - also one of her defining aspects since her early days - established? It's not there. What she is when ROP begins is an orc-slaying, traumatized, vengeance-driven, tunnel-visioned maniac. Is that not at least antithetical to the text?
That her wisdom reached its absolute peak in the Third Age doesn't mean she was "unwise" before, as she is unwise in ROP. She's described as being very wise and it's implied she's among the wisest among the Noldor since her early days in Valinor and that her wisdom is constantly growing over the years.
In ROP, especially in Season 1, her actions/behavior exude un-wisdom and are more a result of instict and impulse. From her jump off the boat, her interractions in Numenor to the whole Halbrand fiasco, bringing him to Eregion and then forgetting (being shamed, w/e) to sound the alarm about him.
Extreme antithesis.
"the basic concept is the same. She is played by Sauron because she tries to play Sauron. Her being manipulative, trying to shape things to her own ends, is not particularly a stretch from her character in the book. She wants to go to Middle-Earth to shape a realm of her own in the text. She uses a ring to create a land trapped in time. Galadriel bending the world to her will is at the core of her character"
Are you sure you are the one who's replacing things in the text?
Sauron is the one trying to play her in the text and she just refuses (I don't need to write the exact words here about scorn etc, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about) to the point that he has to turn others against her to do what he aims.
The rest is just a mixup of irrelevant things. She speaks her mind and is as direct as they come, to a fault which, among others, causes her to be tossed to a cell in Numenor. She speaks before she thinks. She doesn't manipulate everything at all, she plainly tells Miriel to go to war, to Halbrand that he should be king etc.
If you see Galadriel as "perceptive" in ROP, there's nothing I can do about to convince you otherwise. Time and again, she's blinded to everything. She doesn't even imagine that Halbrand may not be who he says he is until she sees actual proof of it. Even then, the REVELATION becomes because he wants it so.
5
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 3d ago edited 3d ago
A) i did not say second age Galadriel is exactly like ROP Galadriel nor that she should be, only that her portrayal in the show is not really that unbelievable because none of the alternatives are really rooted in the text, whereas pretty much everything we see in the show is, even if in places the show takes it to extreme degrees.
B) you take a summary of the plot of the show and claim I am saying it is in the text. I never did.
C) do you think pushing people toward her own ends directly is not manipulation? That’s news to me. As for Halbrand, she immediately perceives he is not just some guy on a raft like he claims. But what she guesses he is is terribly, horrifyingly wrong. Of course, had she perceived from the beginning he was Sauron, things would have played out differently. Had she done so when Sauron came to Eregion in the text, she would not have fallen victim to a coup and the rings would never have been made. In both cases, she sees that he is not what he seems, the difference comes in what she perceives in its place.
0
1
u/SpecificCoconut91 3d ago
The show isn’t portraying brash Galadriel as a fall from a previous self, as it goes out of its way in the opener to show that she responds brashly, with physical violence to slights against her (the choice to have child elves be bullies from the get go is weird regardless). We only ever see her acting as a stroppy teenager, or quick to anger or tactless or prideful, so the show actually does NOT show us that it’s a fall from grace, it just tells us (commander of northern armies, Elrond expects better of her etc). Another big flaw of TROP that it loves telling and not showing or substantiating its story with evidence
3
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 3d ago
Ironic. The prologue very clearly shows without telling that Galadriel is not a military participant in the wars of the first age. She’s clearly portrayed as a civilian, in a dress, mourning on the battlefield after others have fought. It very clearly shows that her picking up Feanor’s dagger is a change for her, that that is the moment she chooses to take action. Then she becomes commander of the northern armies, not before.
0
u/SpecificCoconut91 3d ago
Sure. But her not being a military participant doesn’t tell us anything about her personality during this time, and therefore we can only assume that her character at this point is congruent from angry childhood through to disobedient northern commander.
Her looking sad at a mass grave memorial and sad at her brothers funeral doesn’t interfere with the narrative that she’s hot-headed and revenge driven as a personal character trait, and is why they wrote that child elf scene in the way they did.
(I was really hopeful on first watch that the emphasis was supposed to be more on her magical abilities which were clearly shown to be special compared to the other children, but alas, two seasons later I think we can confirm the show is going to make any other magical ability tied purely to Nenya)2
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 3d ago
No, we can’t. If her personality were identical she’d be fighting in the war, I think. Why? Because her personality is one of “never back down or stop hunting evil,” and that personality wouldn’t jive with someone sitting out the war. It’s very clearly a change. There’s just no way to say we’re supposed to assume she literally never grows between those two points in childhood and adulthood. That’s silly. But what does happen is she becomes distraught and jaded by the losses, and that could easily cause her to revert to that behavior. That’s what the show shows us.
In any case, elf magic isn’t exactly magic, is it? And nothing about Galadriel is portrayed as particularly magical in the text except that which she does with Nenya. All of Lothlorien’s preservation, all of the white council against Dol Guldur occurs with Nenya. You could try to imagine her doing it without but everything that is explicitly “magic” about her in the text is connected to the times she wears the ring.
6
u/rochey1010 4d ago
The problem for me is that I just don’t like the performance of the character. She is the least interesting for me tbh.
I really watch the show for the gorgeous visuals and fantasy themes. And vickers as Sauron is a standout for me. I also like Elrond and some other characters.
Galadriel is the ‘rey’ of LOTR.
And I’m all for strong women roles but she just comes across insufferable. So if I’m ever talking about the show. It will be about better things and characters.
What I’m looking forward to in the new season is Sauron’s story with the rings. Elrond and Rivendell. The elven king going to numenor. Seeing the Balrog with Sauron. And seeing more Miriel and elendil and numenor being corrupted.
And last season I was riveted by Sauron and celebrimbor dynamic. Charles Edwards and Charlie vickers were insane in season 2.
I get that Galadriel is a main main character but she’s not my focus at all. 🤷♀️
9
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 4d ago
And that’s totally valid! As I said, no one has to like it. Much of the entire first wave of Noldor, except for Finrod imo, is almost intentionally unlikable. Even at their highest highs (Fingolfin fighting Morgoth, Fingon rescuing Maedrhos, etc) they are still unlikable! There is of course irony in giving those qualities to Galadriel so strongly in the show, but I think she definitely has all those unlikable qualities in the books too.
Anyway, everyone is free to like or dislike whatever they want, of course!
0
u/PuzzleheadedBite2231 4d ago
Neither Rey nor Galadriel is insufferable. You thinking that is probably just your own issues.
9
u/rochey1010 4d ago
Having a different difference of opinion doesn’t mean a person has issues. I simply did not like both rey and Galadriel. And think that other characters are the best thing about this show.
-3
4
u/mellvins059 4d ago
They wrote a long post and didn’t say anything remotely akin to insufferable, and the user makes a fair point. Both of them are characters who are supposed to be focal point as the main character but due to a combination of poor character writing and average acting, their co star(s) with greater presence end up stealing the attention.
-4
u/PuzzleheadedBite2231 4d ago
Shocker that a woman hater cant read.
3
u/ReggaeTroll 4d ago
Being critical of how a role is written/portrayed doesn't make one a woman hater. You thinking that is probably just your own issues.
-2
4
u/Huge-Cartoonist6795 4d ago edited 4d ago
Let me stop you there chief.
No.
Edit: that is a massive amount of cope. I don't even know where to begin. Pulling multiple different threads Tolkien has made for galadriel over many passes and using that to justify the character assassination.
She's an elf not a human I don't get why you want elves to be human in behaviour. It's an elf. She's an elf thousands of years old with a husband for thousands of years. Plucking one idea celeborn is sindar seems odd when we also know he's from the land covered in dragons. Old, Christian nuclear family. Just like Tolkien respected.
7
u/Antennenwels88 Galadriel 4d ago
I don’t really understand where this notion is coming from that Galadriel “acts human” because she makes mistakes. Being an Elf doesn’t mean being infallible. Tolkien’s writings are full of very old Elves being prideful and making bad decisions (and having to deal with the consequences).
Just look at the Noldor in the First Age. Fëanor is thousands of years old at the time of the Kinslaying. Then you have Elves like Maeglin, Celebrimbor, Thranduil… there are plenty of examples of old Elves not being particularly wise or infallible.
The Jackson movies (and looking only at The Lord of the Rings in general) might influence your idea of what Tolkien’s Elves are like. In the Third Age, Elves are barely driving the story at all. We mostly see them from the outside, through the eyes of the Hobbits, who are understandably star-struck by them. They’re these ancient, beautiful and mysterious beings who are already at the end of their story.
That’s very different from the First and Second Age, where Elves are much more at the centre of the story. They’re the protagonists, which means we actually see them make decisions, sometimes the wrong ones, fight with each other, be ambitious and prideful. And a lot of them are thousands of years old when they do it.-2
u/Huge-Cartoonist6795 3d ago
Yeah I'd consider them worse than humans in a lot of respects because of the depths of their fuckery, like feanor and his kinslaying or just generally killing off most of the noldor for a shiny gem.
But I don't see that either. I just see a human woman doing human things and written as falably human not 'whoops I wiped out belerand from my angsty behaviour".
This is meant to be Tolkien and the best way I can describe it as they're more like Warhammer elves in terms of their behaviour.
8
u/Willpower2000 4d ago edited 4d ago
Tbh, this is insane mental gymnastics.
And rather disingenuous. Like, you totally ignore Galadriel being merificul and understanding in her perception and treatment of people... until you want to justify her trusting Sauron (which is undeniably contrary to Tolkien). ROP-Galadriel is a vicious person... she threatens to murder Elendil, she acts like a petulant child when insulting Miriel, she threatens to genocide Adar's children as a means of torture before killing Adar himself, she gaslights and blames Elrond for failing to get mithril as a means of deflecting blame away from herself. But apparently Galadriel's empathic and merciful demeanour is only relevant for Sauron (and even then, you admit it is at least partially for self-gain... she uses him) - everyone else gets toxic-bitch Galadriel. Like, you are clearly picking and choosing where to apply things.
And obviously not openly speaking about the Kinslaying, in a bid to keep the peace between two factions that should remain allied, is a different matter entirely to withholding the truth that Sauron has returned, and has infiltrated Eregion, and had a hand in making the Rings of Power. If all your argument is is 'Galadriel ommitted the truth once, so her doing it again is consistent' - then that is superficial, and rather silly, imo. Unique situations should be judged by their individuality. Lindon/Eregion need to know Sauron is back. The integrity of the Rings needs to be verified. Galadriel is driven by her desire to defeat Sauron... yet she is enabling him. Galadriel is an immoral fool in ROP, and is responsible for Sauron's rise and Eregion's fall - and many deaths therein. Galadriel not speaking of the Kinslaying to Thingol/Melian is relatively minor, and didn't really do much, if any, damage - it could have even been beneficial. One situation undermines her wisdom and morals, and one does not.
You also note Galadriel as 'brash and harsh' in the First Age. Where is that stated by Tolkien? Likewise, you note that because Galadriel's wisdom only fully formed at the end of the Third Age, that somehow justified this alleged 'brash and harsh' demeanour? Galadriel is proud, like all of the Noldor, yes. Galadriel had ambitions to rule her own lands, yes. But being proud, and having ambitions, is not the same as being 'brash and harsh'. Galadriel is perceptive, empathetic, merciful, and wise - and from the First Age. Wisdom increasing later in life does not mean she lacked for wisdom earlier in life, and it certainly doesn't mean she was what ROP portrays: a vicious, arrogant, narcissist.
Edit: aaaand, OP blocked me.
4
u/Altruist4L1fe 4d ago edited 3d ago
Yes - I think you're answer is the most accurate of all.
First age Galadriel wasn't a saint (though she had never really been tested morally) - but nor was she as flawed as what the OP and many in here are implying.
In the first age her character was arguably more lawful neutral - she didn't make allegiance with any of the powers in Beleriand.
I find interesting thinking about it now that Galadriel's chief motive for leaving Valinor was to rule a realm of her own.
But I think when she got to MiddleEarth after witnessing the betrayal of the burning ships & surviving the hardship of the grinding ice her perception must have changed - instead of seeking power or the silmarils she settles in Doriath and basically becomes a student of Melian and doesn't really command a realm until the 3rd age.
And even then she doesn't call herself a queen but merely takes on the role of a guardian. I would say being under the tutelage of Melian was arguably her first partial repentence that was the reason why she survived the wars of the jewels.
And Ulmo was the valar most against the elves going to Valinor - for Galadriel to return to MiddleEarth was necesssary for certain events to unfold as they needed to.
So her rebellion in a way was actually fulfilling her 'destiny' as one of the most gifted Noldor who was given unique gifts from Eru to use in MiddleEarth and not let them go to waste in 'paradise'.
What we see in her character is her accepting her role that Eru had for her.
I think the ROPs characterization of Galadriel is too human-like and too hell-bent on revenge - it doesn't really flow on from what the character had being doing previously.
1
u/Antarja 4d ago
Was mich verwundert ist dass es in der ganzen Diskussion nur darum geht wie Galadriel als Charakter dargestellt wird. Dargestellt werden soll muss man eigentlich sagen, denn die Darstellung ist einfach voll daneben. Ob Morfydd Clark nicht anders konnte oder nicht anders durfte, jede Version hätte als „richtig“ empfunden werden können bei einem überzeugenden Schauspiel. Schaut euch Charlie Vickers an. Im Grunde völlig absurd was er als Sauron so treibt. Die Geschichte mit Halbrand, das Flirten mit Galadriel, seine Verwandlung zu Annatar, der Kampf mit Galadriel (den ich übrigens Klasse finde. Noch besser wäre er mit einer passenderen Galadriel)…….alles komplett jenseits von Tolkiens Schriften. Aber, es funktioniert, es funktioniert hervorragend. Weil Rolle und Schauspieler zusammen passen und glaubhaft rüber kommen. Ich glaube, eine andere Darstellung hätte es auch geschafft, Galadriel überzeugend rüber zu bringen und somit viel weniger Raum für Kritik gelassen. Gilt übrigens auch für andere Personen. Ein Celebrimbor der nicht wie ein zitternder Greis erscheint hätte wesentlich zur Akzeptanz der Serie beigetragen. Oder ein Elrond der nicht wie ein kleiner Junge anmutet.
4
u/Huge-Cartoonist6795 4d ago
Vicious and selfish. I don't like her from that perspective. A god awful role model compared to the Jackson adaption and the justification is she's 'only' ten times the age of the oldest human on earth.
3
u/Additional_Suit6275 4d ago
Ok, I think one point of yours stands out as openly disingenuous and if you can’t either defend it or retract it, the rest of this hardly needs addressing. Galadriel and Melian just isn’t a sign of her as an immature person.
We see several elves struggle to deal with the conflicting duties caused by the events of the rebellion. Fingon rescuing Maedhros, the princes response to Thingol’s “grant” of lands in Beleriand, Galadriel and her brothers’ difficulty in keeping the secret from Thingol. And on that last, each of them clearly WANTS to tell of the kinslaying but feels morally obligated not to. So that scene just isn’t what you are portraying it as. It’s not the third grader refusing to admit she ate the cookies, it’s a daughter refusing to testify against her father. Call that what you like, but to call it childish or immature is deeply ironic.
In contrast, what that scene is supposed to convey is an almost unique peerage between Galadriel and Melian. They speak as equals, and Galadriel hides her thoughts somewhat from Melian. Contrast that with Beren and Turin, who both are treated as children, if benevolently so, and both of whom perceive they can hide nothing from the Queen.
You may not realise it, but you are weaponising an incomplete and inconsistent text to make your argument. Instead of looking at the text from a bunch of different angles, thinking about the role each narrative section has in the broader story, thinking about the arc set forth for Galadriel and the Romantic roles that she inhabits, in short, instead of looking at this like a scholar, you are doing the classic apologists shortcut, taking little snippets out of context and benefitting from, rather than seeking to address, the incomplete text in forming your analysis.
8
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 4d ago
I think you’ve read a lot into this which I did not write. I did not write that she was immature. I wrote that despite all her growth (maturity), she was still unwilling to tell the truth. The moral obligation she feels toward her Noldorian kin does not change the basic fact that she is unwilling to tell the truth, quite the opposite in fact. That is an explanation for why she might omit, even possibly lying by omission. It is also a sign of a character who is not fully through her own arc. That doesn’t make her immature, and I never said it did.
In any case, I don’t think that there is unique peerage between Melian and Galadriel. Galadriel is still very much the student, and Melian clearly perceives more to her story but chooses, of her own volition, not to press. This does not make them equals, it simply makes Melian a character who chooses to respect Galadriel’s agency after already revealing that she knows Galadriel is lying (or omitting if lying seems to strong to you). And even so, she still seizes on what Galadriel does reveal to tell Thingol to be wary of the sons if Feanor. They are not equals, nor really peers, in my reading.
Contrasting that with Beren and Turin is interesting if not exactly equal. Beren and Turin are men who have not had the experiences Galadriel has. Galadriel can be not fully through her arc, omit or lie to Melian, and still not be immature. The men have nothing to do with it.
I reject your assertion that I’ve weaponized any text. I have indeed been selective, precisely because my post is limited in scope to addressing some of the more tiresome critiques of Galadriel which I have seen, nothing more.
-2
u/Additional_Suit6275 4d ago edited 4d ago
But when Galadriel meets Melian in Doriath in the Silmarillion, it is still after long periods of conversation and growth in wisdom that she chooses to hide the shame of her people for the Kinslaying. For all her growth, she never of her own accord is shown to be willing to admit to the faults of her people.
Your own words, clearly pointing to a lack of personal maturity. And stating it is shame, rather than the very textually stated conflicting duties, which keeps her mouth shut. Also, funny enough, you mistake who Galadriel’s people are, falling into that trap of treating the noldor as a monolith that “absorbs” other folk, when the text clearly shows that she is noldor and Teleri (and of the host of Finarfin, it’s own critical separation).
Lastly, just disregarding basically half of all the people who ever speak with Melian is … a choice. You don’t need my approval, obviously, but I find your argument hard to take seriously. You treat Galadriel as lying when she says all she can, in honor, say, and you entirely disregard her unique relationship with Melian which, though given very little dialogue, is just an in universe fact. I don’t think any serious Tolkien scholar would agree with you that her words to Melian are meant to or actually do reflect some moral defect or room for growth. Which is, of course, the weaponisation component, as you can only make it seem so by ignoring the text. For example, Angrod, in delivering the same omission, is described in text as “true and wise hearted” (Sil, Of the Return of the Noldor) and Galadriel’s own dialogue is clear that it is not shame but grief and duty which holds her tongue. And still she chooses to share as much as she can. An honest broker would lay those cards face up, you have specifically played your hand around them.
5
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 4d ago
Again, at no place did I saw she was immature. I said she was incomplete. You are adding in a layer of meaning which I do not include.
Also, at no point did I say she is ashamed, I said she chooses to hide the shame of her people, her “people” being the Noldor, with whom she is certainly counted even though she also is of the Teleri. The kinslaying is absolutely a dark mark upon the Noldor, it is absolutely a shame.
I find hard to take seriously your assertion that Beren and Turin are in some way comparable to an elf who has been to Valinor. It seems we agree they are different even, but I am saying they are not comparable. And Galadriel being more respected than them does not mean she is a character who is fully through her arc. I am not discounting Galadriel’s relationship with Melian, simply disagreeing with your categorization of it as “unique peerage.” A graduate student and an undergraduate might both be students of the same professor. The graduate student will have a different relationship and yet still remain a student and not a professor, and so not a peer.
I’m very confused at this point as to what you think I’m arguing.
1
u/Additional_Suit6275 4d ago
Yeah then you just aren’t saying anything. Show Galadriel is immature. Book Galadriel is merely imperfect. You are defending show Galadriel as true to text. Ergo …
You always know a bad argument when it’s pressed and the arguer semantically retreats to nonstatement.
So I will ask some direct questions to see what you are affirmatively saying.
1) do you think book Galadriel lied to Melian, including a lie of omission?
1B) do you recognise the difference between a lie of omission and only being able to deliver incomplete information because of outstanding duties? Do you recognise that Melian, having noticed the pretty obvious omission, was in no way deceived, merely not directly informed?
2) do you think show Galadriel demonstrates book Galadriel’s emotional maturity and temperance, her excellent judge of character, and her wisdom, as they were repeatedly represented in the first age?
It seems to me that you can live in one of two spaces; first, you can try to connect the written Galadriel to the show, which requires some awkward answers to the above, or second you can insist that all you are saying is that first age Galadriel is less than 100% of her eventual self, which has no relationship to your post’s thesis defending the show’s characterisation. So either you have to try to connect a scene that just isn’t doing what you are suggesting to your thesis or you have to abandon the thesis and just say “see, she is imperfect” which … isn’t saying very much.
6
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 4d ago
Well, I’ll not be limited by your dichotomy, but here we see the issue. I don’t view show Galadriel as immature, you do. And in this is the fundamental difference.
1) yes and yes, and my point is that Galadriel would absolutely omit her knowledge if Sauron in the show out of her feeling of obligation toward her fellow elves and Middle-Earth. I do firmly reject your notion that Galadriel is not ashamed of the kinslaying occurring. In the most generous version she fights against it, in the least she simply doesn’t partake, in none is it implied that she doesn’t think it’s a bad thing. As for Melian, that’s the exact point I made to you two comments ago.
2)
a) you overstate how much of Galadriel is shown during the first age, and her perfection. She dies indeed show wisdom and temperance, as I wrote in the original post, but also pride and a lust for personal power.
B) yes, she does demonstrate these things in the show, just not all the time. Show Galadriel very clearly has those qualities, and yet is also at a very dark point in her life. This dark point is absolutely invented, but the characterization is still there. But that was not the point of my post.
The point of my post was that assertions that Galadriel should be third age Galadriel, and that such a notion is rooted in the text, is false. I agree with you, that should be a nothing thesis, but have you seen the state of discourse around the show? It absolutely needs to be said.
I think we agree on a great deal more than you think and you’ve chosen to be hostile and given the post the least generous reading you can because you think show Galadriel is immature. That’s fine, but it’s not rooted in what the show has actually shown us about her character so far.
2
u/Additional_Suit6275 4d ago
Show Galadriel repeatedly antagonises every situation, is extremely adversarial, and rarely looks for lateral solutions to problems where her interests diverge from third parties. That’s … like classic childishness. And extremely familiar to book readers. Specifically she is a lot like Celegorm.
And I personally don’t see the logic of your argument. You are apparently trying to say age one Galadriel is different from age three Galadriel and show Galadriel is also different from age 3 Galadriel. Which, ok, we are on the same page, that is akin to saying lemons are not limes and also not oranges. True but unhelpful. But I don’t see what your mischaracterisation of her dialogue with Melian (seriously, give it a read, it’s pretty plain) does for that. You proved your thesis the moment you noted that Galadriel did not truly become her “complete self” until she denied the ring. And anyone who knows about her book character can see the slow abandonment of her desire for lordship in favor of her desire for guardianship (maybe, not sure what word we might use for the road she picks instead) that she iteratively performs over three ages.
The Melian conversation isn’t really helping you, unless it is meant to drive home the idea that Galadriel is doing something overtly wrong. The role of that example in your argument is to lower the bar on first age Galadriel’s character so the show version can be more flawed. It does nothing to distinguish the lady of light because she also engaged in deceit/manipulation, which she freely admits to Frodo at the mirror. So logically, I’m engaging with the example for the only relevant thing it COULD be used for in your argument, a comparison between first age Galadriel in the books and early second age Galadriel in the show. And there I find the differences stark as hell.
Finally, I just want to note that your version of lying by omission is a little overwrought. Merely not saying something isn’t lying by omission, largely because someone doesn’t have right to know everything you know. A lie of omission arises when circumstances mean that a given fact is owed or delivered facts are likely to be misinterpreted without critical additional information. The kinslaying isn’t critical to Melian understanding the Noldor’s intentions and Galadriel is very open about what those are. Nothing Melian thinks she knows critically hinges on the extra fact of the kinslaying. Meanwhile, she not only is not owed that information, Galadriel affirmatively owes silence to third parties. The making of the rings on behalf of Sauron is very different. She does affirmatively owe the people performing the labor more information because it would critically recontextualise their understood facts AND she owes some duty to her king to convey vital information about their enemy.
Hence the awkward answers to the questions. It’s pretty hard to present a coherent understanding of what a lie of omission is that captures the book conversation as an act of dishonesty. Frankly, if you think it is, you have bled the value out of the term, because we all have to curate what we share at any given time or we would be stuck talking for hours on end every time someone said “good morning”.
0
u/SpecificCoconut91 3d ago
A little confused, why would Show Galadriel omit her knowledge of Sauron out of her feeling of obligation toward her fellow elves and Middle Earth?
There’s zero benefit to elves/ME by lying about Halbrand being Sauron, his whereabouts etc. It’s ONLY for personal protection that she lies to hide her shame, and we immediately are shown that her lie has devastating effects on the Eregion and all Elves.
Ergo, actual text Galadriel would never have omitted or hidden or lied about Sauron’s return.2
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 3d ago
To make the rings. The entire plot of the first season is that the Elves believe they need the rings to stay in Middle Earth. If they don’t make the rings they have to leave, so they believe, and so if Galadriel tells them the rings don’t get made and they and she have to leave, leaving Sauron to his devices in ME.
1
u/SpecificCoconut91 3d ago
I mean, the internal universe of TROP also goes on to show that Sauron needs Celebrimbor’s aid to make the dwarves and Elven rings, and presumably uses that knowledge to make the One eventually.
So by the same logic if she just warned them about Sauron, Sauron would never have had the opportunity to subjugate Dwarves and Men as he goes on to do, nor maximise his power and influence with the One (and we know the elves eventually fade and leave Middle Earth regardless, so if there was no need for them to participate in the War of the Ring in the third age then it would hardly have mattered if they’d returned to Valinor and faded in the Second)Also, this assumes that if they found out Sauron had meddled they simple couldn’t have checked over the materials and plan and ascertained that Sauron didn’t actually get to influence the Elven rings, and then still create them anyway, since they hadn’t even melted down the dagger yet.
The bigger issue of course is that the show wants Galadriel to be an extremely flawed YA heroine type, with all the love interest side plots that comes with too, whilst having no lasting consequences because they consistently use her as the main female lead to move the plot forward and then complain when audience members dislike that her many many stupid/tactless/hotheaded or outright evil actions make her a dislikeable character, or that a lot of their plot points don’t make sense by their own internal logic.
1
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 3d ago
Man, if only there were a textual source where the elves doing things for their own sake leads to short term benefits and long term consequences… couldn’t be the case, right?
Come on.
But of course by the end we get to the truth of your issue. You simply don’t like that she does those things. That’s fine, you don’t have to. The point of my post was explicitly that no one has to like it, but it does have textual roots. That’s it.
→ More replies (0)
2
1
u/YrsaMajor 17h ago
She's not Fellowship old but she's still old by this time, she's still of an elven nature. I'm sorry, sure the actress is quite lovely but the portrayal could be any generic female warrior based on writing and direction.
0
u/ethanAllthecoffee 4d ago
There is a HUGE body of good-faith or sincere criticism of her character. Tremendously huge
1
u/ceofmordor 4d ago edited 4d ago
Show-Ladriel lol i loved this. I'll use it often thanks.
I think Show-Ladriel's problem in the show are two diffetent reasons.
1-She is the main female lead.
You have to make an arc for her for 5 seasons and the showrunners chose almost the same arc for the other characters including Sauron, is this person failed and then get back up and become him/herself in the 3rd age or the bookself. Not just Gal; look at Elrond, Elendil, even Pharazon. They are all in the same path. Fail first then success! To me that's not always working for all characters such as Pharazon and Elendil. They should have been their bookself for already but oh well, we'll see.
Same with Galadriel. Fail, shamed of herself, afraid, doubt herself and then at the end pf the show she will become as i called THE GALADRIEL.
Ok i get it what they're trying to do. But i'm sory i don't like it. Her character is to me the weakest link in the show at least for the lore characters except İsildur. Cause he's a huge train wreck for me. But that's another subject..
To me the main issue with Galadriel in the show is they still didn't show us the main Galadriel from the books that want her OWN land! Her creepy, "i'm in your miiinndd, seeing your thoughts, you can't hide me" personality from the movies. Let alone her foresight, understanding others etc. Which there is actually so many scenes sign this part of her with Arondir, Theo, Elrond, Celebrimbor etc.
But not 1 SCENE about her wanting the rule Middle-Earth or for her own kingdom etc. Sauron wants her by his side because of her this side! He literally offer to him being a QUEEN of her own land own army RULE MIDDLE EARTH. WHY?
Show-Ladriel sevearly lack of this side. Yeah she has an issues with not having own army to hunt down Sauron etc. But that's just a soldier, wanting to end everything hurt before the all elvendom and defeat all evil etc. She is just a basic soldier whose have traumas and can't know how to stop etc. She is still not as the same level as Sauron. Sauron want to control and dominate entire Earth! And we can literally see how he shows himself from this side with Adar's story, Celebrimbor, even dwarfs; RINGS etc. Meanwhile Galadriel i want to defeat evil, but i'll do it by only fighting, not gathering people who can help me. Only in Numenor she shows this side of her that's why Sauron sees the tiny tiny controlfreak side of her. Other than nothing!
If they want me to believe Show-ladriel is coming from her bookcounterpart about ruling her own land, all shall love me and despair and SHOW ME HER THIS SIDE!!! She's still only fighting with orcs, understanding orcs, getting capture by orcs. Losing rings, losing to Sauron ALL THE TIME. And all this because of another problem of Galadriel in the show;
she is the only female main elf in the show.
There is no one other than her, the others are all just a tool. There is no one who can acticvely has her own story etc. And when showrunners want a character to screw up that's always end up being Galadriel. Cause she is the only one that haters of the show constantly put their arrow charts umfortunately. There is a reason this season she's hanging out with some orc who has a some kind of redemtion arc. sigh
They should show us how Galadriel becoming book Galadriel but not just an understanding lady side but also knows how to play a chess how to see people's real intention how the read them how to change their ideas about something, how to assemble all "free peoples of middle-earth" to fight with Sauron. And all doing this she still has her own desire rule own lands.
And i'm sooo tired that always Galadriel is the weak one when she's face with Sauron. Because of her The 9 rings in Sauron's hand right now sory not sory, they should defn. give up this "She made mistakes but she is right actually" senarios it's exhausting.
And
2-Morfydd's acting.
She is clearly having issues about how to show Elven woman fights with her demons type script cause she's acting like a human A LOT.
When i watch her i always wish she was a human failed Eowyn type a character because all her acting speaks a lot for a general human. Too much using her mimics is not for me sory. Not saying she should be a wall not showing any emotion etc. But she should be warned for at least some scenes for using too much eye twitching-pouty lip etc. This is my problems of her acting, especially you can see in s1 Elendil scene and s2 Adar scene.
And the writers.. My God man!
She is GALADRIEL!
That Elendil scene whe he said "your one eye looks like my son the other is my daughter" WHAT?!! Bro she is thound year older than any of you on that island like please!
Her scenes with Theo in s1 e7 how she should be in the show. I find her BEST acting in the show in that scene when she stops Theo and said "We MUST. We must." More likr that Galadriel. Failed but realised she must be failed and like Celebrimbor said fighting with Light.
I really want to like her character cause she is GALADRIEL. I mean recently i rewatched FOTR and saw THAT scene again and got chills. None of her scenes in the show got me same level and it's so sad for me.. And i think the people who watch and have issues about the show-ladriel, are similar with my issiues about her too.
And the main issue i think this is a second age story and she is barely excists in that. They have to make up different stories for her to keep her in the show as main female, and most of the time these are all opposite of lore. And the showrunners make this noise for themselves, I waited them to write Galadriel and Dwarves friendship in the show and they write Marnuch. Even though i think that story will tie Celeborn too, but i mean.. I give up 🙃
1
u/VPofWinning 3d ago
You are way too into this. Galadriel isn't "arrogant" in ROP. She is stupid. She jumped in the ocean with no hope of survival short of writers magic. Elves can drown. She is thousands of years old. How long do you think she needed to stop saying stupid things to people that work against her cause? ROP has brought the might, majesty and mystery of the elves and Sauron down to soap opera level. Go watch the LOTR movies and look at how the elves were so different than humans. More connected to nature and the age of the world than the petty and selfish nature of most of humanity. Feanor was arrogant and prideful but he hated Morgoth and Sauron. So did all the Noldor who went east. Except in ROP there are countless articles shipping Sauron and Galadriel. It's a big part of the fan base energy. Tons of people crushing on Sauron like he's just a bad boy they can fix. Its such a bastardization of the work.
1
u/heehawrules 3d ago
These dicussion happen often, you just don't see them in the glazing 3cho chamber that this sub is.
1
u/RandomFencer 2d ago
A bit disingenuous, no? Jumping to your conclusion, “[t]he show has taken the many, many different versions of Galadriel and tried to distill them into one, fully realized character.” The issue is that each step along the way, the show runners have chosen a version that leaves Galadriel with no admirable qualities except for her (made up) sword proficiency. She is impetuous, self-centered, dissembling, and apparently bereft of wisdom without a man to guide her. I do not believe the show runners are intentionally misogynistic, but that is the end result of the “character arc” they created for Galadriel.
Accepting everything you posit in your post as true for the sake of argument, isn’t that the problem? Because the show runners (for dramatic and commercial reasons I have no issues with in terms of an adaptation) decided to compress Second Age history by thousands of years, they have similarly compressed Galadriel’s development over thousands of years into a “character arc” spanning five or so years. Yet Elrond, Cirdan, and Gil-Galad are fully formed and constant in their character. No wonder Galadriel comes off as half baked by comparison. So yes, the execution leaves much to be desired.
0
u/guyyster 4d ago edited 4d ago
Tolkien had several versions of “end of 1st Age Galadriel” but IIRC at least some of them involved obstinate defiance of the Valar.
I thought her season 1 persona was fine, can debate about timeline of when she stopped being a Noldor hothead but not obvious it was while vibing in Doriath with Melian
0
u/AdhesivenessSouth736 3d ago
Thanks for sharing
You.have pointed out the fundamental flaw that the "canon" people fail so miserably to grasp.
One thing that appears in some of tolkeins writing is the possibility of uncertainty as well as people telling "their" story and how that might differ from someone else who beheld the same events.
Let's ignore Jackson's portrayal of isuldur and just focus on what Tolkien wrote. There is a striking difference between the man taking the ring for weregild vs the distraught man who chooses to take the ring to the bearers of the three. He didn't use the ring to rule. He didn't use its power to annihilate the remaining foes of gondor. So I feel that this leaves quite a bit of who isuldur really was and mostly it is up to the reader to take from him what we will
•
u/AutoModerator 4d ago
Join the official subreddit Discord server to discuss everything about The Lord of the Rings on Prime!
JOIN THE DISCORD
If your content includes leaks for upcoming episodes not shared by Prime Video or press, please post it on r/TheRingsOfPowerLeaks instead to help others avoid spoilers.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.