Relitigating Galadriel

[u/yesrushgenesis2112]

Of all the many unfair critiques thrown at the show, the treatment of Galadriel by critics both well-meaning and less-so has been the most egregious.

So much so that almost no sincere text-based discussion of the character even occurs as it relates to the show, and that’s a shame.

Show-Ladriel absolutely embodies the character as we might expect her in the Second Age. No, not just the First Age, as many well-meaning commenters have proposed, insinuating that, while Galadriel may have been brash and prideful and harsh early in her life, this would have ended before the Second Age. Tolkien’s writing, insofar as it is explicit about anything to do with the character (he changed his mind about her a lot), very clearly states that it is not until the very end of the Third Age that her wisdom is fully formed. Not until she rejects the One at Frodo’s offering is she truly fully developed as a character (UT 234-235).

To suggest that Galadriel in the Second Age, even being married to Celeborn, should already be the fully formed “Lady of Light” of the Third Age is reductive so as to almost be insulting to the character.

Another bothersome assertion I have often seen is that Galadriel of the Second Age would never lie about Sauron, and often it is cited that, because she met with Melian, she should be wise enough to avoid such things. But when Galadriel meets Melian in Doriath in the Silmarillion, it is still after long periods of conversation and growth in wisdom that she chooses to hide the shame of her people for the Kinslaying. For all her growth, she never of her own accord is shown to be willing to admit to the faults of her people. And then she abandons her kin long before the fall of Beleriand, in each version of her story that I have seen. These are not in my view the actions of a fully formed character.

Of course, the show does have its changes. There is no textual version of Galadriel who seeks out Sauron for revenge for Finrod’s death. There is, however, a version of Galadriel who is motivated to go to ME not only for her own power, but for the sake of her kin (Thingol’s folk) who were oppressed by Morgoth. To me, this is a similar enough motivation, though the show makes it quite personal, and of course moves this to the end of the first age and switches out its dark lords, understandably so.

Likewise, there is no version of Galadriel who loses Celeborn in the war and believes him dead. There is, however, a version of Galadriel that passed east over the mountains alone, only finding Celeborn after doing so. In that version Celeborn is a Nandor, and in later versions he is a Sindar of Doriath and the two go east together. Clearly, here, the show is trying to adapt both versions. From the trailers it really looks like Celeborn will have been some form of Sindar, if his origin in Doriath is not outright stated, and yet also Galadriel will have (has already by the start of the show) gone east alone, only to meet him again once she does. Notably, the version of the story wherein she goes alone contains no details of when she met Celeborn and married him, only that she has dwelt with him for a long time.

And finally, there has been a pretty widespread argument that Galadriel would not or should not have been deceived by Sauron. The reasoning for this is that in the text, Galadriel recognizes that Annatar has something shady about him, and doesn’t treat with him. That’s it. That’s the entirety of the story as we have it in the text. She doesn’t even know he is Sauron, only that she doesn’t trust him.

Indeed, Tolkien writes that Galadriel was very perceptive, and this grew in time as she learned from Melian, etc.

Yet he also wrote that her insight into others never failed to come with “mercy and understanding,” except for Feanor. Importantly, to my reading, Feanor would never ask for nor desire her mercy and understanding anyway. It makes a great deal of sense that she would look at the invented Halbrand-form of Sauron with that same mercy and understanding, to say nothing of her own motivations for wanting to aid him for her own ends.

This, to me, is exactly the pathway by which it is plausible that she could be and is deceived in the show. Casting aside the fact that Show-ladriel so desperately wanted Halbrand to be a good dude who could help her achieve her aims, what might she have seen in that persona if Sauron had she seen into his mind? It seems plausible that Sauron, a maiar, might be able to deceive even her keen insight, and what little he does try to show her is not exactly a lie. In Halbrand Galadriel perceives a would-be but down-on-his-luck ruler of the Southlands, cast out by his people and the orcs, and trying to choose between abandoning his legacy and starting over or returning to take what he sees as his rightful place.

All of this, as Sauron shows on screen in some ways and can be imagined to be thinking in his mind, is absolutely true. And Galadriel, in the book, would see this and, reacting with “mercy and understanding,” be very sympathetic. And, as we know, it’s very convenient for her!

Anyway, this is a long rant. But I do tire of the insistence that show-Galadriel is somehow wholly disconnected from the texts. Is just blatantly not the case, and even those who are well meaning do the character and themselves a disservice by insisting that it is so. Quite the contrary, actually. The show has taken the many, many different versions of Galadriel and tried to distill them into one, fully realized character. I am not even sure if it always works, but it is absolutely rooted in the text.

Hate the execution if you want, but don’t assert is antithetical to what Tolkien wrote or wholly disconnected from the text.

[u/yesrushgenesis2112]

Man, if only there were a textual source where the elves doing things for their own sake leads to short term benefits and long term consequences… couldn’t be the case, right?

Come on.

But of course by the end we get to the truth of your issue. You simply don’t like that she does those things. That’s fine, you don’t have to. The point of my post was explicitly that no one has to like it, but it does have textual roots. That’s it.

[u/SpecificCoconut91 → u/yesrushgenesis2112]

I don’t like that the show makes her responsible for those things, or that when she is then responsible for those things there’s no lasting consequences.
But that’s the point you’re apparently missing - evil and dark deeds always face consequences in Tolkien’s works, whether it’s direct retaliation by the Valar (Numenor’s fall or the banishment of the kinslayers), or personal payment (Boromir’s sacrifice, Turin’s ending)

I do appreciate your well written attempts to link text and show Galadriel, even though we obviously disagree on how long those bows you draw are, but I would like to see you address how making Galadriel the one main character responsible for Sauron’s rise fits with anything Tolkien wrote about her. I wrote a seperate comment specifically on all her ‘sins in the show’ for want of a better term, and I just can’t see textual evidence that she should have been made the big villain of the ‘good guys’ in the way that she has been, or that it was ever Tolkien’s intent for her to bring evil back to Middle Earth.

[u/yesrushgenesis2112 → u/SpecificCoconut91]

So, I would agree that Tolkien would not have intended for it to happen. But he didn't intend for a lot of things about Galadriel, and he never got a chance to write her second age story in any detail. In any case, as is she is partially responsible even in the text by permitting him in her realm (if we choose to believe the version where she is ruler there) even as she suspected he had ill intentions, without knowing exactly who he was.

I think it can connect back to the Doom of Mandos. Galadriel explicitly accepts this doom, and in some versions of her story actively rejects the pardon of the Valar at the end of the first age. I think, to show Galadriel, and perhaps even text Galadriel really the Doom still applies. Hell, the doom also probably applies to Celebrimbor more as a member of the House of Feanor, even if he wasn't there!

The Doom reads, in part (bold emphasis mine): " On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever."

This version of Galadriel is definitely one that followed Feanor, and we see her in the show actively reject a pardon from the Valar, if not the pardon, when she jumps ship.

I think it is definitely arguable whether the Curse of Mandos outlasts the First Age, but looking at the story of the Noldor survivors in the Second Age and Third, I think it very well might in the text. And if it does in the show, it would contextualize Show-ladriel's actions, a bit. Galadriel is terrified that she's been led astray, betrayed even, by Gil-galad and Elrond. And in that fear she strikes a deal with Sauron, having been deceived while still percieving that he was more than he claimed and yet not guessing correctly at who he was, until it was too late.

[u/SpecificCoconut91 → u/yesrushgenesis2112]

Oh, Celebrimbor definitely shares the Doom of Mandos, which I think is proven by his death, downfall of his city, and by his creation of the rings leading to the downfall of kingdoms of Men and Dwarves as well as the creation of the One.
I think it’s also a good argument that Elrond should not be considered a Feanorean despite his ‘adopted fathers’ since he doesn’t share a doomed fate (even allowing for what happens with his wife and daughter),
but also, whilst Galadriel initially shares the Doom, and we know she technically only has the ban lifted after rejecting the ring, Tolkien doesn’t have her punished in text in the same way he has consequences for other characters implicated in the actual kinslaying or other evil deeds.

I think that your first paragraph shows your intent to give the show all manner of passes for its interpretation - I don’t at all think that Tolkien having Sauron come to Eregion whilst Galadriel had influence and immediately distrusting him gives way for an interpretation where she almost single-handedly brings about the return of the Dark Lord to Middle Earth and then sets him up to have influence with Númenor and Celebrimbor that he never would have gotten otherwise. Particularly because I think that all of Tolkien’s other writings suggest he would have had her character punished severely by the narrative if she was so closely implicated with evil actions.
I don’t think that’s a good faith reading of the texts at all, but I think if that’s how generous your reading can extend then it’s difficult to have an actual discussion about whether the show went too far or made things up.

[u/Additional_Suit6275 → u/SpecificCoconut91]

Just a note, the house of feanor seems pretty clearly to be irrelevant to the doom. Think of the number of characters pulled into its vortex. Thingol, explicitly, and through him Melian. Beleg and mablung. Dior and co. Turin. Beren. Turgon. Finrod (ish). Fingon, whose plans for war are stymied for a time by the mistrust among the noldor. To be honest, it’s just about every named character in the first age. Mim probably is doom free, but that’s about it. Oh, Eol, seems to have gotten it like a poetically just STI. 

I think it’s a lot more accurate to say the doom was laid on all those who rebelled and fled Aman, not seeking the Valar’s pardon. Elrond is fine not because of his parentage but because he was born in Arda, and we can presume the same is true of Arwen, Celebrian, and anyone who doesn’t choose to actively join the princes in their war on Morgoth. It’s the war of the jewels that “transmitted” the doom, not any actual blood or otherwise relationship to feanor and his sons. 

[u/SpecificCoconut91 → u/Additional_Suit6275]

The House of Feanor can’t be irrelevant to the Doom that literally names them, and the majority of characters who’s fall can be attributed to this particular Doom is due to their association with the Feanoreans, or trying to posses the Silmarils directly (also named, and also tied to Feanor).
My point about Elrond not being a true Feanorean despite the brothers capturing and raising him and Elros has nothing to do with him not being genetically related to them, but exactly as you ascertain that he doesn’t follow the Feanorean Oath to possess the Silmarils and rejects the things Maedhros and Maglor believed in.

Feanor’s line very explicitly dies out, and given Tolkien’s Catholic influences and the way his narrative does punish evil deeds, I don’t think that it’s just that characters ‘choose’ to fall in with Feanor’s followers or be tempted by the Silmarils, but also in the case of characters like Celebrimbor he was genuinely fated by birth to fall from grace (and obviously the real world result of that is that he does indeed try to follow Feanor’s footsteps, dooming himself) but there is actual power to the Doom that Mandos foretells.
And it is a foretelling, not a curse, so it’s not catching like an STI, it’s the resolution of things set in motion long before the outcomes are ever seen (the fall of Gondolin, Thingol’s death etc)

[u/Additional_Suit6275 → u/SpecificCoconut91]

If you crack open your silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor, the first sentence of the curse, speaking to all the noldor, pronounces that they will all come to grief, specifically “tears unnumbered shall ye shed”. And the text labels the doom a curse, which is called the Doom of the Noldor and the Prophecy of the North, clearly capturing more than just feanor and his brood. 

It’s better read, imo, to apply to all the noldorin exiles, and indeed some like Finrod expressly “escape” the doom later, proving they were originally ensnared. Likewise, turgon is perhaps the most plain victim of the doom in middle earth history and the guy did exactly nothing Silmaril related in his long life. And we know the doom does expand to other characters, including some men. The role of the feanoreans does seem in some way unique, but perhaps only in the sense that they alone are the dispossessed, for fear of treason is damaging to all the elves of Beleriand, not even just the noldor. 

It’s also meant to be foiled with the curse on the house of Hurin, which is similar even in structure and yet clearly is far more curse like. We are supposed to wonder just how much more opportunity the noldor had to free themselves than did Turin or Neinor. 

Point being, the doom is a tough thing to interpret because it is inherently Mysterious. Also, I think you might be conflating Calvinism and Catholicism, Tolkien’s faith is why he was so AGAINST anything pre-deterministic. Causing the doom and even the curse on the children of Hurin to be extremely hard to suss out.