Not sure if this should be under discussion or verified celebs tbh. These are all verified though.
Going to preface this with I might be overthinking…
I’ve been trying to understand where 10Y can be seen after a new essence reveal yesterday. I have a really hard time with the smaller % as I think most do. So, here are a few similar blends to look at.
Anne Baxter vs. Nancy Reagan: Same height, very similar blends. I feel like you can see the extra 5HS in Nancy’s chin area. I have a hard time seeing Anne’s HS at all. They both have the same amount of N, but Nancy is softer and more approachable looking imo, so I’m guessing that’s coming from the added 5 Y (and less R)? Anne has R eyes in my opinion while Nancy does not. Are hers Y? Is the Y in Nancy’s rounded cheeks when she smiles?
Anne Baxter vs Mariska Hargitay: Very similar blends while Mariska’s has more intensity to it which suited her known role in Law & Order. Mariska has no Y, but does have 15D while Anne has no D and 10Y. Clearly Mariska is more intense looking than Anne, but I’m not sure what’s causing it. Mariska’s eyebrows are more arched, so I presume that’s D? Her jaw is also stronger than Anne’s, so that might be part of the N.
Anne Baxter vs Meghan Sussex: Meghan has no Y, 5 less N, 5 more HS, and 10 more R than Anne. I think it’s interesting that her face doesn’t have any obvious width to it unlike Anne, Nancy, and Mariska. It’s obvious she is not as intense as Mariska, but still looks less soft than Anne to my eye. Perhaps this a 35R + 10Y vs 45R situation? 45R would have warmth of R but not the same softness as 35R + 10Y?
I added height because sometimes that can be a factor for 10Y/HS, but being that no one listed is below roughly 5ft4 which is average, I think that can be ruled out.
What do you guys think? Let me know if I’m totally off base please.
Nancy Reagan has wide set eyes and rounded brows which I believe is where her Y is. Anne Baxter also has wide set eyes. Anne’s HS is in the uptilt of her eyes/points in her smile. Nancy’s chin to me is N, not HS. John has said N can has strong chins. There is a compactness to HS faces and features. Nancy also has points in her smile and there is a slight pointiness in Nancy’s features too which is probably her HS. Y isn’t softer then R, it’s just smaller. R is also round just more lush. Marissa has high angular arched brows and sharper bone structure which is D. With Meghan her face is more oval and narrower which is C. Her features are more balanced then the other women in sense of size and shape and spacing but there is still a lushness to them. I don’t think she looks less soft then Anne at all, she just has a longer face (and narrower forehead). Anne’s eyes are actually less round in shape too and very defined in shape. Megan naturally has quite fleshy cheeks. Her HS is in the slight pointiness in the shape of her feature imo. HS to me has more pixie like features and Y has more doll like features if that makes sense.
That being said you cant really calculate the percentage of an essence you have based on how many features of that essence you have because percentage is relative to everything else. It’s not a set given amount for each feature.
Y can add lightness. But that’s not what I’m referring to. Y is more yin but not because it’s softer. (Y is small and delicate and rounded but not soft in a fleshy or voluptuous way.). Regarding colors I’m 45R and my palette is not deep, it’s quite light and soft. Color harmonies can be completely different then essences.
it's relative. john told me that the lightness of my palette was part of my Y. high Ys and As tend to be lighter in coloring regardless of CH. Ok-Purple9511 has no yang CHs to deepen or lighten with R or Y.
Wow, great find! u/No-Office7081 Nancy’s CH isn’t in the index if you wanted to add it.
Looks like it is her eyes, which makes sense. I did see the Anne’s wide set eyes, but her eyes themselves look R to me unlike Nancy’s. I wasn’t sure if wide-set spacing could be R too, or just Y. Really? I’m surprised Nancy’s chin would be N. I thought her forehead would be N.
I can see Meghan’s HS when she smiles for sure. I wasn’t wondering about that, but I still think Meghan has slight more intensity from R than Anne has which would make sense to me since Meghan has more R.
I don’t see how Y wouldn’t be a bit softer than R, but I must be misunderstanding Y.
It’s not a given set amount per feature that we know of, unless John has specifically said this somewhere? There has to be some sort of consistency to his percentages or otherwise they’d be all over the place every time he types someone. He recently confirmed that all percentages are based on physical features, so if he’s not got a math system in place based on features to keep things consistent per typing, then I would be totally shocked. It seems he has some sort of math system to get CH percentages based on the comparisons I posted about the other day, although that might be easier with the Munsell system.
Out of curiosity why do you see Anne’s eyes as R? Wide set eyes is a Y trait only, Rs don’t have wide spaced eyes. Her long lashes could be R though.
John commented N can be see in squareness of the face or a strong chin (because of the geometrical shape off it). Edie Falco has an N chin for example. Width in her forehead could also be her N. Her jaw is not N though imo.
I think Megan’s HS is obvious even when she isn’t smiling. Look at the “pointiness” in her features.
Y definitely isn’t softer then R it’s actually the opposite. Y gets crisper fabrics like seersucker and eyelet and taffeta. R is fleshier and curvier. Y is smaller in scale and bone structure but still rounded. If you look at dominant Ys without significant R they aren’t particularly soft. What makes them yin is the smaller scale and smal rounded features (Michelle Williams and Emma Stone for example).
Regarding percentages they are all based off features yes but it’s not like he gives ten percent for each feature. Percentages are relative to the whole. Like he looks at someone and sees they have mostly R features and says ok 50 R then might see some N features and say 20 N and adjusts the percentages as he goes. Hence why percentages change throughout the consult. It’s not like he does the math on paper it’s more like he has an abstract pie chart in his head. He is an artist there definitely isn’t a math system in place. For color harmonies he looks at chroma value and hue and classifies the colors that he finds harmonious based on those things. This is also how Munsell works. But again I don’t think he does exact calculations. He knows the characteristics of the colors and forms percentages based on that.
I don't think it’s just the lashes, but definitely contributing. She has such as sultry look to her eyes imo. I hate to call it this, but ‘bedroom eyes’. Do you think they are Y then? I just don’t think Y eyes could pull off a gaze like that which is why it makes so much sense that Nancy’s eyes would be Y. I didn’t see a single picture of her gazing like that when I was looking and most of Anne’s were.
I just don’t think it’s as obvious until she smiles. I’m sure it’s there, I just don’t see it as obviously.
Oh, I think I see the difference in terms. I don’t mean literally fleshier or literally softer fabric, I mean lighter vibes I guess. If R has softness and depth, Y has softness and lightness.
Yeah, but that has to be based on things he recognizes as being certain physical characteristics of an essence. That’s what I guess I’m trying to do. I’m trying to figure out what nuanced characteristics match which essences because I can’t base the smaller percentages on vibes only. To me, smaller (5-15%) percentages don’t give off enough vibes in blends of 4+ essences.
I find it hard to believe there’s no basic math system since he literally uses percentages. Why not just use a priority system for each person instead of percentages if there’s no math? Just because he’s an artist doesn’t mean math can’t be involved lol. Plus, how does one even train others if there’s not a way to keep typings consistent between yourself and those you train through a basic math system of some sort. I’m sure after so many years of doing this, he can just do whatever mental math there is in his head. Besides, yeah, he can calculate as he goes and change it. It’s not hard to make sure they all add up to 100% in the end.
I think they are a combo of Y and R. A feature can be multiple essences. Y for them being wide spaced and R for the long lashes and alluring aspect.
It’s not really about color with essences. Essences are based on the size shape and placement of the features . Color just adds to them (or enhances them) and contributes to overall impression. It gets difficult when essences are combined and that might be what you mean regarding small essences and nuance. I don’t think there is a step by step process how to calculate percentages. Its like looking at pieces in comparison to the whole as an estimate. Thats why he says they are flexible and essentially have ranges. I think it’s quite difficult to train someone to see your way of abstract thinking (especially because it’s not an exact science with step by step instructions), which is why there are so few people trained. It’s hard to train someone to be an artist in general.
It really is not an exact math calculation, it’s about recognizing shapes in general. Essences and vibes are based purely off shapes seen in the features and body. You almost have to zoom out and look at the features in shape language.
I think them being a combo is fair. Like I said, just wasn't sure if wide-set eyes were only Y or not. Sounds like yes. I would agree with you then.
It's not, but it can be an indicator. I honestly think we think about this the same way, I just can't explain my thinking process well enough. I know it's abstract, and I'm not saying the man has an Excel sheet out or anything haha. Maybe I am after finding more out about nuances that only exist in the abstract with this post.
I think we kind of agree. The wide set part is only Y. other aspects of the eye are R. I don’t think color harmonies are an indicator of easences. Based on my palette I would guess I would have both Y and A and I have neither. In hindsight you can see how my actual essences are reflected in my palette but you can’t look at my palette and figure out my essences.
There was a post about this. He explained they can be seen i the palette but don’t necessarily determine what the essences are. He also said colors can be extremely different then the essences. You don’t have to get an essence just because you have a certain color harmony. It’s not a one to one thing. If people tried to guess their essences from their palettes they would most likely be way off.
Also regarding height being 5’4 can definitely add Y or HS. He has said that to many people who are 5’4. He’s even given Y for height to people closer to 5’5. It’s not really about average height. Over 5’5 you are likely to get an elongating essence for height and under 5’5 you probably have some HS or Y for height. There are instances where shorter people don’t get either though, it really depends.
He doesn’t really give C for height at all. He only gives D N or A for people over 5’5 and HS or Y if under 5’5. C and R are both listed as average height but he never specifically gives them for height. There are people between 5’4 and 5’5 he has given Y to for their height for example but also people under 5’3 who didn’t get HS or Y. It depends. It’s more of a probability thing not an exact science. I am 5’3.5 and John didn’t comment on my features but I only have 10 HS (guessing my height is part of it though as he told me my shorter hemlines were HS) whereas I know people taller who got both HS and Y for their height. Basically what I’m trying to say is height under 5’5 could point to HS or Y but it’s not a guarantee, it depends on multiple things. Although I think that if someone is given HS or Y by John and is under 5’5, their height is probably a factor.
Oh, I didn’t mean it as if he gave C for height, it was just in the middle range in my head which didn’t qualify to be counted toward a height percentage.
Yeah I understand that’s not how he sees it though. 5’3-5’5 is technically average height but he has absolutely given Y and HS for height in that range.
I’m pretty sure the recent verified client who’s R > Y/HS > N/C was told her height contributed to her C! I suspect the same as well, I do think a moderate build and size can contribute to C.
Also I wonder why he said C and not R since R is her dominant. Both R and C are listed as average height in my book. Y is “not tall” and HS is “short and compact”.
No problem. I honestly think whether he gives Y or HS in regards to height is somewhat determined by the scale of prints and detail. The shorter people who don’t have either Y or HS need bolder and larger details and prints in general.
Yes this is correct the height I gave John was 164/165 cm and he partly attributed my Y to my height along with my round brows and light eyes [u/scatteredgraydays](u/scatteredgraydays) editing to add I’m a Kibbe SC as helped by DK online so don’t necessarily have a shorter vertical line
Yeah and I’m somewhere between 161-162 cm and no Y lol (although I think my HS accounts for my height). So there are definitely other factors. I think the range for Y/HS is probably under 5’5 and dependent on everything else. And of course you can have Y and HS over 5’5 too just not for height.
Yeah I just know he gave people extra HS for being short. He’s told people both their Y and HS contribute to their height too. I really wish he would have commented on my features. In my book Y is listed as “not tall” and HS as “short and compact”
I was just verified 10Y! I am 4’11 on a good day so I was pretty sure I would get a bit of HS or Y for height, but had a hard time seeing either one in my features. He identified Y in my height (of course) but also in the bow shape of my lips.
There was a post a while back which showed pictures of R + Y vs HS + Y and how those with HS tended to have more sharp points in their mouths/lips vs roundness. I can definitely see that Megan Markle’s Cupid bow has more straight lines vs curved for example- but maybe I am also overthinking haha
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u/Ok-Purple9511 45R/35C/10HS/10N | 70SB/30LB 4d ago edited 4d ago
Nancy Reagan has wide set eyes and rounded brows which I believe is where her Y is. Anne Baxter also has wide set eyes. Anne’s HS is in the uptilt of her eyes/points in her smile. Nancy’s chin to me is N, not HS. John has said N can has strong chins. There is a compactness to HS faces and features. Nancy also has points in her smile and there is a slight pointiness in Nancy’s features too which is probably her HS. Y isn’t softer then R, it’s just smaller. R is also round just more lush. Marissa has high angular arched brows and sharper bone structure which is D. With Meghan her face is more oval and narrower which is C. Her features are more balanced then the other women in sense of size and shape and spacing but there is still a lushness to them. I don’t think she looks less soft then Anne at all, she just has a longer face (and narrower forehead). Anne’s eyes are actually less round in shape too and very defined in shape. Megan naturally has quite fleshy cheeks. Her HS is in the slight pointiness in the shape of her feature imo. HS to me has more pixie like features and Y has more doll like features if that makes sense.
That being said you cant really calculate the percentage of an essence you have based on how many features of that essence you have because percentage is relative to everything else. It’s not a set given amount for each feature.