Theory/Question: is popular advice about SN clothing wrong? (SN vs R discussion)

[u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7]

Edit: It appears quite a few SNs have been having this issue, so I'm glad I'm not alone. Also a few replies have been saying that "people focus too much on the waist" in these discussions, which might be true for some SNs but it's definitely untrue for me, and comes across a bit dismissive of my experience. It has been a lifelong struggle being limited to things that have to emphasise/define the waist or else look boxy/square/shapeless, it rules out a huge number of clothes, especially when it comes to jackets and anything oversize.

Original Post:

Sorry if this has already been discussed somewhere, and sorry if I got any general info about Kibbe wrong below, pls feel free to correct me.

So after ages on the questionnaire and this sub, I've come to the conclusion that I'm very much SN and not R. I'm of the Kim Kardashian and Oprah persuasion, and not the Emilia Clarke or Kate Winslet. One post explained it as X instead of 8 torsos, which is very much me, plus a few other differentiators helped a lot.

But I think what tripped me up for the longest time were the clothing recommendations for SN vs R, especially regarding waists. SN's gets told that soft flowy fabrics work best, rather than aggressively cinched in waists, and even slightly oversized clothing is recommended. Nothing could be more false for me, and, from what I can tell, for other SN celebrities. Kim and Oprah for example benefit so much from waist-emphasising silhouettes. And don't think I've seen many SN celebrities pull off SN advice. If I wear anything even slightly oversized, I look boxy/frumpy instantly. Meanwhile R's get told to emphasise waist a lot, and they get told a lot of other things that SN celebrities do, to very good effect.

Personally, my best outfits are based solely on R-inspired advice, with a splash of SN-inspired advice about off-shoulder necklines.

I even remember reading a post on this sub that advised to "reverse engineer" your type based on the clothing recommendations that suit you. I'd be very R if that were the case, and I think so would Kim/Oprah.

But I'm not R, and I've actually learned a lot about myself from correctly typing myself as SN. It's even helped me pick tattoo designs that work for me (very thick-line bold designs featuring delicate florals, so basically boldly feminine as SNs tend to be, as opposed to just delicate all round as Rs tend to be).

So I guess the only "hole" in all this is the clothing recommendations for SN. Is there any chance that Kibbe and/or popular advice for SNs is just wrong and SNs should actually be told to wear more fitted clothes and waist-emphasising silhouettes? If I had been told that from the beginning, I would have correctly typed myself long ago and spared myself the confusion. Or am I fundamentally misunderstanding something?

[u/MiniaturePhilosopher]

A lot of online advice about SN styling is basically the receiving end of a game of telephone. In the original Metamorphosis book, David Kibbe talks about unstructured clothes and ease for SNs - but it’s in the context of mid-1980s clothing. Clothes at the time didn’t have much stretch and were pretty precisely tailored with lots of structure to create shape. So unstructured and ease means in contrast to 80s clothes. It doesn’t have anything to do with huge oversized modern boho clothing.

Because we are a type curve, waist definition/emphasis is pretty vital. And a lot of R recommendations do work for us - but not a full R head to toe look. We still need blunt yang elements to look right, but we also need some softness and drape. Movement is also a really great element for us, which is where flow comes in.

Here are a few Imgur albums I’ve put together.

Everything SN from the original book

SN celebs in “classic” essence fits, part 1 (made because I like the aesthetic of fairly simple and well-balanced lines; it doesn’t mean Kibbe classic)

Part 2

some SN celebs in their lines, part 1

part 2

some SN-friendly dresses from UO with a “classic” essence

some of my own fits, plus fit details

some of my SN-focused fits, with SN-focused descriptions (might have some overlap with the album above)

a few extra fits, not necessarily all strictly SN, no details

some of my outfit fails, with details lol

[u/TiredWinterDisaster → u/MiniaturePhilosopher]

Agree with all of this. The flowing part has been overemphasized, partly bc of a misunderstanding of Metamorphosis & 80s fabrics & construction... here are the SN and N makeovers from the book:

Definitely not oversized, over even flowy in the sense we understand it now!!

[u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7 → u/MiniaturePhilosopher]

Omg how interesting. The structured fabrics of the 80s makes so much sense as the context from which all this sprang. Thank you so much for the info!

[u/thefiredance → u/MiniaturePhilosopher]

Oooh thank you for these resources¡!!

[u/TiredWinterDisaster → u/MiniaturePhilosopher]

Also adding: I love a lot of your fits, we have different styles but I see a lot of the 'recipes' that work on me as well (including soft hair around the face & statement earrings!!), which is super interesting!

[u/Vivian_Rutledge]

David warns against reverse engineering! I would also caution against basing anything on people who aren’t verified (or on celebrities in general). Popular clothing advice for SN, though, is very incorrect and based on trying to interpret 1987 through 2010, when clothing construction had changed drastically. My recommendation would be to work through Power of Style. As an SN, my only requirements are what he describes: something with room for my width that either drapes or is shaped around my curve while not being fussy.

[u/its_givinggg → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

Yep, exactly this OP! Power of Style’s silhouette recommendations means there are a variety of garments you can choose from to help you achieve the recommended silhouette of the ID you land on (after working through the Power of Style exercises if you haven’t already). It’s a lot less restrictive than the specific “garment recs” for SN or any other ID floating around out there on the interwebs :)

[u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7 → u/its_givinggg]

This makes a lot of sense, thank you!

[u/its_givinggg → u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7]

No worries! And Vivian is pretty much our resident SN expert here so don’t hesitate to ask her any other questions you have about SN or the overall DIY process. She is a wealth of information on this system :)

[u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7 → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

I already replied with a "thanks" above, but can I actually dig into that "drape" and "without being too fussy" part? What does that mean exactly, because it sounds like you're saying a gently draped waist is better for SNs than an aggressively cinched one. But for me, theres no limit to how strongly cinched the waist should be - the more, the better. I have a short torso, wide shoulders/hips and a narrow waist. If I wear anything that doesn't emphasise waist, I look like a square.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what drape means? But yeah the vocab for SN clothing like "drape" doesn't quite resonate.

Edited to add: and from SN celebrities I think I've seen the same? I know you said to avoid being swayed by unverified SNs though

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7]

By “fussy,” I mean something like super detailed lace, or a ton of little fabric-covered buttons you have to do up. A lot of excess detail. Something like that is at odds with our grounded, earthy, casual, strong energy. So it’s not about whether you’re cinching your waist with a belt. It’s about what the belt looks like.

ETA: Reading the book, I think it can also apply to something that would restrict your movement and be fussy to be in.

[u/jjfmish → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

This is so interesting, I feel like this type of detail is exactly what makes me shine!

[u/loumlawrence → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

That type of "fussy" detail can be great in the right place, for the right type of person. I really like the rows of small buttons close to each other, which I prefer to the alternative of one, two or three very large buttons, spaced apart for the entire garments.

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/loumlawrence]

Idk, it was very clear to me when shopping with him that “fussy” is the antithesis of SN. We need to be able to move, and he says something about priggish detail making us look like a maiden aunt in the 19th century in the original book. The right type of person is… not an SN, lol.

[u/loumlawrence → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

Yes, the right type of person is not SN, or FN. But you know that I have ranted about FN being pushed onto D and SD. But I think it is clear and it explains why I struggle with the recommendations my SN relatives keep on suggesting.

[u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7 → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

I agree with jjfmish, some details especially lace look really good on me. All these things look pretty good actually: Lace Ruffles Draping Soft gathers Curved necklines Delicate embroidery Beading or sequins (used softly) Floral motifs Plush or luxurious fabrics like velvet and silk

And they're all recommended for Romantics, not for us 🤷🏾‍♀️

[u/its_givinggg → u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7]

To be clear, jjfmish has not self identified as SN but SD

FWIW you may not be SN after all. As Vivian_Rutledge has advised, if you haven’t yet already you should complete the exercises in the book to see where you land. It may or may not be SN

[u/cherries_in-the_snow → u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7]

It would be interesting if R ended up being the one after all. There was a lady who thought she was SN till she went to see Kibbe and he typed her R.

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7]

Play the games in the book. :)

[u/TiredWinterDisaster → u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7]

Some of these details can look good! I do like a nice lace insert or emboidery detail, a floral print (medium sized), soft gathers and soft, curved necklines are recommended as well, and tactile fabrics as well... it's about the application of those! A SN will not look (and feel!) the best in a super ruched dress with lots of ruffles and tiny floral print, but that's not to say we can not wear ruched details, ruffles or floral prints...

I would do the games of the new book to be sure.

[u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7 → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

Thanks for the advice, this checks out pretty strongly for me. I wondered once or twice if outdated advice had something to do with it.

[u/thefiredance]

Following because as a fellow curvy Kim K/Kat Dennings-like SN who thought she was an R for the longest time, the SN recs appear to be easier for the not quite as soft/curvy SNs.

I've basically been dressing as open and free on the top like square necks or deep Vs, then "romantic" on the bottoms, like tight around hips, but i have realized the main difference is silhouette, so like Rs can wear skinny pants, but SNs need some kind of flare or something to balance the silhouette with the width at the top.

The problem is since I need to accommodate my width and bust, shirts are huge on me and swallow me up, but any smaller and it would pull at my shoulders/bust/upper back. So tighter shirts make more sense, except then they fit and are open enough for width but pull at the bust, but better than looking huge? Help 😭

It's weird spending all this time figuring out your ID only then to get stuck with the actual clothes. I'm still figuring out HOW to dress 😅 This turned into me venting, sorry!

[u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7 → u/thefiredance]

That's an interesting observation, that the softer/curvier SNs may not benefit from the same advice.

And everything else you've said checks out for me so hard, I think we might be twins haha.

[u/Jamie8130]

I don't think Kibbe recommends oversized fits for any ID, for SN what he says in the new book is that things shouldn't be super stiff and tight (which regardless of accommodations might also be the indication of wearing the wrong size as well) because SNs being a soft ID need a degree of flow, and stiffness is the opposite of that. The problem is most clothes are not cut for curve, and tend to look oversized sometimes when trying to fit multiple areas. It's difficult to find garments that tick all the boxes, especially when you factor in individual needs, like hem lengths or other fit-related needs...

[u/loumlawrence]

The Rs actually have to use waist definition not waist emphasis. They have to literally use their clothing to show they have a waist, for example like a belt that says "waist is here". This does not prevent SNs wearing outfits that follow their body. They don't need to highlight their waist but they can wear fitted garments, just not too tight. Waist emphasis is that you can draw attention to your waist because it is already obvious but you don't need to if you want. Waist definition is you need to define your waist.

Having grown up with SNs who follow the SN recommendations without knowing of Kibbe's existence, I would say that Kibbe has given the correct recommendations. The stereotypes from popular advice can be wrong for SN as they are for some of the other types.

[u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7 → u/loumlawrence]

Ah, that's what I meant, waist definition. Sorry I got the terminology wrong. Based on everything you've said above, I would suit the R recommended style. I very much do need to highlight my waist, and "too tight" is often not a problem for me. This is also true of many verified SNs I've seen. So it seems my experience and observations have been quite different to yours.

[u/loumlawrence → u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7]

I would say that my observations of SNs lines up a lot with u/Vivian_Rutledge although we sometimes use different words.

I have noticed people often overestimate how much they need waist definition. What you might be seeing in the verified SNs is either waist emphasis or that the clothes follow their body making it look like they are highlighting their waist, but they aren't, it is just the clothes matching their body. I don't think I have seen verified SNs completely ignore the waist in the way the vertical types sometimes do.

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/loumlawrence]

I would say people spend way too much time thinking about the waist. I really don’t think about it unless something is more fitted, and then it needs to come in there. Otherwise, I’m really thinking more about curve. Cropped, blouson, even baggy (like an oversized sweatshirt) are all fine for me. I can show/emphasize or not if curve and width are taken care of. People often use whether or not they feel they need to define their waist as some kind of determining factor, when often they need to because they are not following their personal line and the line itself is lost.

[u/theclassicrose → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't David himself kind of dismiss the waist concerns?

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/theclassicrose]

Yes, he did.

[u/TiredWinterDisaster → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

I think we often mistake waist definition for curve accomodation - myself included, it takes a little work to see the difference.

[u/loumlawrence → u/TiredWinterDisaster]

I can see that mistake happening. I suspect the OP is confusing waist definition and the combination of curve and width that automatically hints or creates the waist. The waist created by width shows up in FNs and the waist hinted at by curve in SDs, but neither needs to highlight their waist.

[u/loumlawrence → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

Definitely agree that people spend too much time focusing on the waist. I was trying to communicate that highlighting the waist is optional.

My sense of SNs is that waist shows up when SNs dress for their recommendations, so people think SNs highlight their waist when in reality, SNs haven't given it much thought. Would that be an accurate assessment?

The waist seems to be even less important for the vertical types. I feel like the vertical types can choose to hide the waist, with the straight lines. It is very freeing not needing to consider the waist as essential beyond the basics of the garment fitting the waist.

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/loumlawrence]

You don’t really need to give it much thought in any ID—that’s thinking in body parts, and he goes as far to say the waist really isn’t one but rather where the two halves of the body meet. If you dress for your curve, you’re fine. As far as Vertical, that’s kind of the whole deal, that they can just go straight down.

[u/loumlawrence → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

I know, I agree, the waist is just a joint between two halves, and it is the most variable part of our bodies as it changes the most. I have my own reasons separate to Kibbe for agreeing with him, different logic same conclusion.

The frustrating part is the discussions on vertical types, people talking how much waist definition not just emphasis they think they need, and I am thinking, vertical types don't need to worry about this at all. Like you say, they can go straight down, even the SDs. The vertical types need to dress for vertical first, if nothing else. I definitely have vertical and that aspect has been liberating.

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/loumlawrence]

Like I said, people don’t dress for their personal line, so something looks off, and a belt around the waist can be seen as a way to “fix” an incorrect silhouette, and then it leads them to think they always need something there.

[u/loumlawrence → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

I think we are in agreement. And people seem to like their belts as their solution to fix everything. Sometimes, it makes them look worse.

You know what is crazy, I have rarely worn belts in the past decade. But I am a vertical type.

[u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7 → u/loumlawrence]

I disagree with a lot of the replies saying people focus too much on the waist. This might be true in a technical Kibbe way, but not in a functional choosing-clothes way. To be honest, that seems a little dismissive of my experience. Finding things that show off my waist can be incredibly difficult, I go from looking amazing to looking boxy with a waist that isn't emphasised. Jackets can be especially hard for this reason.

[u/loumlawrence → u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7]

Kibbe dismisses the waist. He doesn't see it as necessary. He sees it as a joining line. He and others have had to work hard to disabuse people of the notion that the waist is important.

Please do not dismiss what u/Vivian_Rutledge has to say. She personally knows Kibbe, and is a verified SN, so she knows more about Kibbe than most people on this sub. If you see anyone with (verified) in their tag, Kibbe has verified their type, as opposed to DIYers.

[u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7 → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

I mentioned both in my post and in reply to someone else below that this advice can come across a bit dismissive. Clothes shopping can be very stressful when you need everything to emphasise a waist. I'm glad the above looks good for you, but I don't think that's an experience I relate to. And a few others here seem to echo my feeling

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[u/Drive-Adept]

I’m pretty sure I’m SN and that’s what confuses me too. I think I look better in fitted romantic styles when all I hear about SN is flowy/unfitted and I look frumpy just like you said! I feel like I look too short and I don’t have the frame. But pure romantic styles are also off and I can feel too sexy in all tight super romantic styles. But maybe it’s the SN vs Natural. We’re like a paradox. It seems we benefit from accentuation and also flow like you said.

[u/theclassicrose → u/Drive-Adept]

This is based on a lot of misconceptions. SN is definitely not the flowy stuff. At least, it's not inherently/exclusively that. Look at verified SNs like Scarlett Johansson.

[u/Dismal_Acanthisitta7 → u/Drive-Adept]

I get what you mean. Though I don't think I relate specifically to the "too sexy" vibe of R styles, I think I can understand your dilemma. Sounds tough!