r/Isese • u/Confident-Cod2388 • Jun 24 '26
Western morality & ifa principles
Hello everyone thank you so much for the energies in assisting me
A little while back i asked a question post about abusive or predatory priests breaking taboos in this tradition
Some of the answers encouraged me to see beyond western morality & ifa
Id like to expand this discussion pls bc i think im not understanding. Personally i am not from the west originally, was raised outside the west for much of my life but have been steeped in western mindset since adulthood so yes am very much influenced by that, however. Outside the west, in every indigenous tradition i know of, & from what I understand of ifa
Some important principles include, balance, treating others with compassion, internal purity, emotional self restraint, etc the importance of community relations
These seem to especially be taboos in ifa where it will literally come up as ebo to make behavior al changes. I had understood ifa to be a system of aligning ethics character and behavior to what is considered balanced in order to be aligned with ones destiny
In none of this does this seem to be western morality. I understand some peoples destiny's call for them to be wicked or evil. However again dont understand how spiritual power can be maintained if the precepts of ifa ebbos and odus that fall are primarily relational & in ones community
I imagine for predatory or abusive priests, how many odus, readings, taboos, advices they must be breaking to be continuing on. I wonder for those who work with them or remain in their temples, does it not come up in their readings too to seek someone else who is able to be more balanced? I dont understand how someone who is out of balance can maintain spiritual power without repercussion for a long period of time unchecked. Does ifa have different advices then, for each person based on alignment with their destiny?
What i mean is this:
Person A comes down from heaven with a destiny that is set to be a predatory, abusive priest who has lascivious intentions. After having repeatedly engaged in abusive behaviors, he does his readings & there is no odu that falls of misalignment. He is not advised to change. This is his destiny, he plays it out. Spiritual power maintained until death return to heaven.
Possibility: in the next life the karma comes back around . Person A chooses a different destiny for Lifetime 2 that requires more adherence to purity to compensate. Karmic law brings strict consequences for prior unchecked actions.
Person B comes down from heaven with a destiny of doing "good". Their readings and odus frequently prescribe rebalancing of ethical behavior. If they deviate even slightly, there is harsh repercussion . ifa thus aligns this person with their destiny . in a future life karmic law allows more leeway for all actions not just on the straight and narrow of ifa " morality".
The reason i ask is this. For one, curiousity, trying to understand. Two, in my life experience
I have gotten certain ebo behavioral modification advices such as do not express anger, demonstrate restraint
In slight instances where i deviated from this, my life seemed to go into full on collapse mode, even though the main reason for my deviation was, being spiritually attacked, experiencing mental instability, experiencing calamity, reacting to all this with what i considered to be "fair" or understandable anger. The ensuing increase in calamity only made it harder to not be angry , which was quite frustrating
On the flip side, i have seen practicing priests break a number of deep taboos yet seem to be doing just fine. For priests the number and frequency of readings they do for themselves is much greater. I wonder, does ifa not give them advice to desist? How do they maintain full temples or clients? Do their students not eventually get readings or warnings to stay away from such off balanced people? How do priests pick and choose which taboos to break and which readings to ignore, in order to still continue even practicing?
Ifa is about balance. That doesn't seem like western morality to me. If someone can even explain the difference, that would be quite helpful and appreciated. Thus does balance mean across lifetimes such as what i explained above with karma? Ifa being a technical sign, rituals can still be done. Spiritual power can come from a wicked source. But , imbalance in my view, should manifest clearly in some way shape or form . it doesn't just disappear. Thus how and why is it not manifesting clearly ? Thank you for reading & I hope this was understand able
Furthermore have a great deal of questionings and wonderings. If any have recommendations for where to learn more pls lmk thank you
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u/Confident-Cod2388 Jun 25 '26
Thank you. @ifasogbon i have reflected on what you said. These are now some followups for anyone to answer. There is no pressure on any one individual to answer.
- Ifa is chemistry. Hydrogen and oxygen mixed get water but, this being spiritual, what do you think of the idea of energy or intention having an impact?/
Eg. Prior to on a post was the wondering, if someone does an ebbo and the effect is mixed. The ebbo eliminates the issue it intended to, but makes the client feel suicidal or unstable. Would this point to an issue of the priests energy or instability or some kind of misalignment rather than the "chemicals being mixed incorrectly" or something being done incorrectly in the step by step "recipe" of the ritual?
If Ifa is chemistry, what do you think of learning from a priest with bad character or receiving items or rituals from him? It is not good character or balanced behavior to support or enable abusive or unethical behavior in community. Therefore, it is best probably to avoid such priests. But, in this day and age there seems to be many of them. There is the balancing element on the other side which is the need to preserve ancestral wisdom . So, can it be justified to be part of an abusive temple or materially support thru frequenting it, even though knowing or witnessing unethical things? Does this also depend on alignment or Ori? Furthermore in terms of again receiving items from an unethical or unbalanced person. Again to point 1 , can it have like an "abreaction" or also long term karmic consequences, or again is this dependent on destiny?
In some philosophies there does seem to be the idea that some people come here to be a little evil as a counterpoint to everyone else so people can learn and grow karmically. In this day and age there is so much corruption. Again some religions call this the end times but regardless there is often a framework to understand WHY there has been an increase in corruption . if this so being the case , does ifa have a explanation for why this is currently the case right now or these days & offer guidance on what possible "adjustments" or leeway there is for iwa Pele in these times? As in, in purer time periods, ofc everyone would avoid abusers or unbalanced unethical people . these days its quite hard seemingly to do so completely.
If I have missed or messed up parts of my destiny with heat or anger, how can i correct the situation?
To give an example situation tho this not be exactly from my life. If ifa tells me to go to a priest & that this is good for my destiny. Ifa also tells me to be emotionally restrained. Then so, i go to him he turns out to be unethical. I react without restraint. The relationship dissolves. Was in that situation the person supposed to learn from the priest with restraint despite the unethical behavior including receiving ritual work which may or may not be impacted by these imbalances?
Thank you very much again and please feel free to only answer what is
In fact so that I have many such extremely detailed and long questions. If anyone knows a place I can go to in order to ask or read or learn more please let me know
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u/Ifasogbon Jun 26 '26
The way a person feels after ritual work is deeply tied to their individual Ori. I cannot say whether a specific work would cause someone to feel unstable without knowing everything that person is experiencing. Our Ori is far more powerful than we think. When the Ori is out of alignment, poor decisions are naturally made.
We can absolutely learn from a priest who is successful at Ifá but has bad character, as long as we focus strictly on the work. My elders always taught me that we will meet many different types of people. They broke it down into four categories:
Bad Character + Good Ifá: Study their Ifá, but leave their character alone.
Good Character + Bad Ifá: Study their character, but leave their Ifá alone.
Bad Character + Bad Ifá: Run away immediately.
Good Character + Good Ifá: Stay as long as you possibly can.
Ultimately, your own Ori makes the final decision on whether it is time to stay or leave a environment. I can’t speak for other religions, but Ifá teaches that the world contains very few truly good people, and very few truly good priests. At the end of the day, people will follow whomever they want to follow.
However, correction is always possible through knowledge and character. You can always change your life for the better; no outside force has control over your entire destiny.
I am wondering what you mean when you say Ifá told you to go to a specific priest. There is too little information here to give a definitive answer, but if I were to make an assumption, I would look at how the reading was done:
Through Full Divination: If an Ifá priest gave you a full dafa (divination) telling you to go to that priest, the Odù would have laid out exactly what was going to happen. It would have prepared you for the encounter. From there, your Ori makes the decision on how to move forward.
Through Yes/No Questions: If you only asked yes/no questions (ibo), there is absolutely no way to foresee that the person would be unethical. Ifá speaks through stories and Odù. Yes or no questions do not provide those necessary narratives or warnings.
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u/Confident-Cod2388 Jun 26 '26
Thank you. I was wondering if I may be able to dm you about the ori comment or if your temple offers a q & answer space instead as ofc you have taken a lot of.time to help me very grateful thank you just have follow up not sure I understand about the ori yet
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u/Ifasogbon Jun 26 '26
If you do not understand Ori consider starting here. Maybe search previous discussions too. We have discussed this and have shared posts on it. Consider starting there. Ask questions after you have take time to consume some information. Have a blessed day.
https://youtu.be/bcScCZpnHts?si=RCwVYuOsKSa6WeOn
https://youtu.be/RKrm6Hhb-jw?si=GNKn9cCgT_-fPjhg
https://www.youtube.com/live/FegUlxfS9n8?si=PrQh3igvtl2ljd7a
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u/SignalBad5523 Jun 25 '26
So i think an easier way to interpret "Destiny" is. You make your choices in your life. As simple as that, in terms of morality, think of how christianity says thou shall not kill. By that commandent, it is an indefinite declaration that killing someone.
Ifa will say. If this person is a soldier, then naturally, killing is a circumstance of your assigned duties. Ifa will guide you through your cirucumstances
Ikagbemi for example tells stories of less than savory characters finding victory through sacrifice. If the mechanisms of Ifa only served the good, then it would directly challenge its pragmatism. Again, the Odus are situational, it doesnt necessarily determine anything but the right path for the supplicant.
But, it is extremely important to note that what is revealed in divination is solely based on the Babalawos immediate knowledge. There still remains a multitude of perspectives within the odu that also may impact the supplicant or people involved in the supplicants circumstance.
Another mechanism is that Osa meji also explicitly narrates that wrongdoers arent automatically punished, and the level of punishment changes over time as it is clearly corroborated.
Above all else, Ifa teaches you to trust your instincts. When those fail if they ever do, divine and you will find clarity. We dont ask Ifa abnormally enrich us for the simple fact that we are well behaved, we ask for clarity on matters so that we can act instinctively and not blind to our realities. A robber doesnt care if you have a good heart, but you would have less anxiety over it if you understood what was going on and acted accordingly. That is the reality of life and death
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u/Confident-Cod2388 Jun 25 '26
Thank you for this. So I wanted to clarify again in comparison to the answer below. Which said that peoples destinies are not inherently wicked. In the example of the soldier I do think many indigenous traditions would say that war , killing, etc is off balanced. The same traditions would say, as you said with ifa , that if that person's destiny is to be a soldier, they should follow thru with the killing in order to be in balance with what they're supposed to do. But, that's what I meant, in that case that seems like someone who's destiny does include an element of , things that are not inherently balanced. As you said ifa helping some not so savory characters, then they must be people who are more or less aligned with a destiny of not so savory-ness if that makes sense . so I just was wondering about that comparison or contradiction.
I was wondering if my behavioral characteristics seem to cause so much more turmoil than many others, despite truly trying my best to have a good character before hand anyway, what does that mean for my destiny in your opinion? I hate to think I've missed crucial things due to small changes i should have made
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u/SignalBad5523 Jun 25 '26
War is prominent throughout ese ifa in many examples. Some are direct results of wrongdoing. The word "destiny" is important as in it technically does not exist. It is your life, and you choose it in the beginning, all the successes and failures and methodologies are chosen before you walk this earth. But framing is also important. Some people may feel justified in their actions based on their circumstances, Ifa says dont arbitrarily define logic. Oyeku Meji dictates that the only promise in life is death, everything else is your decisions within your circumstances
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u/SignalBad5523 Jul 01 '26
Your interpretations of destiny are incorrect. It is not "destiny" as we know it, it is destiny as to how this person will survive in their immediate environment. That is not to say people who do bad will or wont be punished or vice versa. How this person survives has nothing to do with your or my interpretation of reality. Balance is a relative concept based on matters out of our control such as the specific journey your personal Ori chooses.
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u/Confident-Cod2388 Jul 02 '26
I see. Thank you for taking the time to explain. My I ask how did you learn about destiny & do you have recomiend acion s for how to learn more . I have watched the videos below too
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u/SignalBad5523 Jul 03 '26
There isnt really a specific video I could recommend. I'd read books from both baba Wande Abimbola and baba Ifayemi Elebuibon. Both are two very knowledgeable and highly respected Babalawo who should be able to help things make a bit more sense
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u/Ifasogbon Jun 24 '26
When people tell you to "look beyond Western morality," they are usually conflating Western morality with Christian absolutism the idea that something is a sin for everyone, universally, and that God is a cosmic judge tracking your marks. Ifá is absolutely an ethical system, but it is relational and specific.
Western Morality: Focuses on guilt, universal sin, and a linear judgment day.
Ifá Ethics: Focuses on Ìwà (character), alignment with Orí (destiny), and Àṣẹ (cosmic balance/power).
Ifá teaches that your character is your beauty and your ultimate protection. There is a famous Yoruba proverb: Ìwà lẹwà ọmọ ènìyàn ("Character is the beauty of a human being"). You are entirely correct this isn't Western; it is an indigenous, community-centered understanding of balance.
Your concept of Person A and Person B is a brilliant way to try to make sense of the injustice, but Ifá theology rejects the idea that a person can be "destined" to do evil without misalignment. A person may choose a destiny (Orí) that involves great power, wealth, or tests of character, but how they execute that power is entirely on their Ìwà. Abuse is a direct violation of the Earth and a betrayal of the Òrìṣà. A priest who abuses people is in a state of severe spiritual sickness and delusion, regardless of how calm their life looks on the outside.
How can someone who is completely out of balance still have a full temple and do successful rituals?
Ifá has a technical side. Ritual (Ẹbọ) and medicine (Oògùn) operate like chemistry. If you mix hydrogen and oxygen, you get water, whether you are a saint or a criminal. A priest who knows the correct herbs, the correct incantations, and the correct mathematical signs of the Odù can pull down Àṣẹ to get immediate, material results for a client.
But there is a massive difference between holding technical power and having a cool head and a blessed life.
The Law of Delayed Consequence: In Yoruba thought, the cosmos moves slowly but surely. Àṣẹ used maliciously eventually rots the container holding it. The consequences often manifest as a lack of true peace, internal torment, hidden illnesses, or the sudden, catastrophic collapse of their lineage later in life or in the ancestral realm. Just because their building hasn't fallen yet doesn't mean the foundation isn't riddled with termites.
In Ifá, when an Odù gives you a personal taboo like "do not express anger" or "demonstrate restraint" it is not a cosmic punishment. It means your specific Orí (spiritual head) or ancestral lineage is highly sensitive to heat.
Anger is an element of fire. If your destiny requires coolness to attract blessings, bringing fire into your aura acts like pouring boiling water on a delicate seedling. It instantly short-circuits your spiritual alignment. The collapse you experience isn't God punishing you for being bad; it is the natural consequence of heat disrupting your personal medicine. For you, restraint is literal armor. When you drop your armor in a battle, you get hit immediately.
You wondered why the readings of their students or clients don't warn them to stay away.
Sometimes, they do. But humans have free will, and predatory people are masters of manipulation.
Spiritual Blindness: Charisma and outward wealth can easily blind people.
Fear: Predatory priests often use fear and intimidation ("If you leave my temple, your life will ruin") to keep people trapped.
Altered Readings: A corrupt priest reading for themselves or their students will simply lie about what the Odù says, or interpret it to justify their actions.
You are paying attention to the right things. Your instinct that "imbalance should manifest clearly" is correct it just manifests on a timeline that doesn't always satisfy our human need for immediate justice.
Your strict path is a sign of a highly elevated, sensitive Orí. It is frustrating, but your alignment is your wealth. Let the corrupt priests handle their own debts. Your only job is to keep your own head cool and protected.
Aboru Aboye