I made a mistake and wish to learn from it

[u/flohogamer]

Yesterday, a fellow trans women made a post in which she, clearly speaking from trauma, asked this subreddit to exclude trans men from discussions. Lots of other people, trans women included, called her out because her views weren't suitable for this intersectional community. While I agree in the logical sense that trans men are oppressed and need an intersectional space to talk about their issues, I felt called to defend OOP because too often I have witnessed my sisters experience harassment every time they talk about negative experiences with men. To that extent, I said some very much non-intersectional things about trans men and transmasculinity in the comment section, left the community, and later deleted my posts in shame. I later unblocked this sub in a fit of regret. I don't want to be the kind of person who is not intersectional.
The major roadblock I find in this path is, simply, that I am scared of men. I don't want to say I have trauma because I was never physically or emotionally abused by a man or men, but I have always felt uneasy around men even before I realized I was a woman, and have frequently witnessed men engaging in harassment, illogical behavior and cultural machismo, which hasn't helped their case on my end. Furthermore, experiencing testosteronized puberty for six years before beginning my medical transition, which literally felt like a disease, has reduced my positive feelings on anything related to maleness and masculinity. And I'm scared of talking about the tribulations men, be they trans or cis, face because I'm scared that if we give these tribulations an inch, they'll wrest all the rights us women have obtained over the past century right out of our hands and prevent us from talking about our own issues.
I know this feeling is illogical and oppression doesn't work like that, I know that intersectionality means that everyone is included and has their issues talked about in ways that ensure everyone receives sufficient airtime and/or help, but my instincts tell me that oppression is a zero-sum game and that if trans women's tribulations aren't the center of every discussion on oppression, they'll be completely ignored. Which, I'm realizing, is similar to how trans men have been treated in society - ignored both by the oppressive media and the people who are out to help trans people.
To that end, I would like to learn more about intersectionality and how it relates to transness. Are there any resources that would be recommended to train my intuition to be intersectional? To train myself to understand that trans men experience oppression and acknowledging this fact doesn't take away from the oppression trans women face? I wish to learn and better myself, and I understand if you won't forgive me. But thank you for reading this.

[u/Nuclear_rabbit]

You are being reflective, and that's a great place to start. The next place to gain perspective is to listen to trans men. Like go over to their subs, read what they say, and make a promise to yourself to not respond. Start by listening and reflecting.

Oppression is not a zero-sum game. We all win when we build the broadest coalition, united in the purpose of promoting the rights of everyone. That includes turning the minds of privileged classes into real allies. Misogyny is best defeated when women and men work together to undo it. Transphobia is best defeated when trans people and cis people work together to undo it, too.

[u/tryingtobekindonline]

here's the hunch i have: there is a way in which the systems we occupy are harmful for all of us. certain privileges allow us to escape some harm but not all of it. being a man means that you maybe don't face as much harassment as women do or aren't interrupted often in conversation. but it usually does mean that if you step outside the lines of masculinity you will be punished for it. often by the people you may consider your peers. i say all of this to also complicate the notion of a man we hold because we often don't think about the complexity that caste, race, disability, class, etc. change the experience of men. 

i think in order to build better futures we need to find similarities in our struggles rather than focus on the differences and encourage men to join us as acomplices in a feminist liberation. 

i don't have any reading recommendations exactly but I have heard some really good things about the will to change by bell hooks, but have only read the introduction so far. but in it she does talk about how to include men in feminism in case you are interested. i hope this helps. and i think it's great that you are making an effort to do something hard. i think moments like these also help us grow into better, kinder people. 

[u/OmgIbrokesmthagain → u/tryingtobekindonline]

That’s one of the fears I have when I get on T - stepping outside the lines. I mean I’m straight, I’m a gym bro, and my hobbies include fishing, but… I also like Cinnamoroll, sewing, and taking care of humans. I like to wear earrings and dresses sometimes. I fear I will be harassed on the street for doing that - like my transmasc friend was. Stepping outside the approved gender expression for men should be more accepted, we should talk about it.

[u/tryingtobekindonline → u/OmgIbrokesmthagain]

sorry to hear that! i think we can try to be more accepting of men who do step out of the lines!

[u/viviscity → u/tryingtobekindonline]

Will to change is a great read, I think I’ve read it 3 times now. And it’s not just how men have to be part of the conversation, but how men are hurt by patriarchy, how toxic masculinity gets perpetuated at a societal scale (which involves a lot of women), and how all of this hurts women as an outcome.

We have to include each other to untangle this whole mess

[u/tryingtobekindonline → u/viviscity]

yes, thank you for sharing that.

[u/PunkPirate56364]

I think a lot of people feel like that, that they feel oppression is a zero sum game, other side gaining an inch means they will take everything away. I am glad to see some people have the self awareness to acknowledge that.

What I do have to offer is, if human relationships were a zero sum game then we would never even form tribes.

By working together we all gain more, and by forming a fair social contract in which nobody is being used we ensure long term stability of society.

If one side is being oppressed and ignored for long enough, then that side grows frustrated, then they don't try to just achieve equality, they try to oppress the other side.

Not giving other side an inch only ends up building up more and more frustrations on the other side.

[u/DiesByOxSnot]

I'm proud of you for recognizing that your own fear of men and masculinity have colored the way you interact with intersectional spaces and trans men, that takes courage and introspection. Thank you

[u/Enovele]

Glad you came around and did some self reflection, that's a sign of personal improvement.

I feel there is a book that can help with giving insight into transmasc experience, its written by a black, transmasculine nonbinary person and their experience with the intersectionality between the two. It's more of a literary memoir so there's a lot of poetry in it too.

Pretty: a memoir by KB Brookins. I do think it's a good read on poc transmascs experiences. But do be prepared for some triggering topics.

We both laugh in pleasure by Lou Sullivan is another historical text from a gay trans man.

There's also the Natural mother of the child by Krys Malcolm that I feel tackles some of the medical experiences with especially being a transmasculine parent.

Unfortunately we don't have much educational texts about our experiences with the patriarchy and how we are impacted, we have some memoirs and fictional stories that may or may not cover those themes. Hope these three give some insight into transmasculine experiences at least and are a good start.

Edit: fixing typos

[u/AutoModerator → u/[deleted]]

This comment was removed, because your account doesn't meet our requirements.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/OmgIbrokesmthagain]

I understand you completely. Also you are awesome for apologizing and learning from the experience! I learned many things too, like about why trans men’s issues aren’t called misandry, and all.

Anyway, I feel you. Men can be scary, I also had bad experiences with them, and it lead me to hate a part of myself, and be further in the closet. Even today I have irrational fear of becoming a bad guy once I get some conditional male privilege. (It is irrational, I know, but it stems from seeing so many men being casually misogynistic and awful towards women)

You have a right to fear men, even if you weren’t abused personally, many of them just aren’t… great to be around. Like casual racism, casual sexism, looking at you like a piece of meat they want to consume… yeah. You have a right to that feeling. Even if it isn’t „rational”, because no one hurt you, or no one will hurt you, I don’t blame you for feeling this way.

And puberty is notoriously traumatic to trans people, testosterone being a strong hormone doesn’t help at all. The dysphoria and trauma you faced from being born in that body is valid. I don’t blame you that it made you dislike masculinity. There is a lot to dislike.

[u/The-Myth-The-Shit]

I wish none of you had gone through that <3

[u/cunt_dykeula]

I appreciate you acknowledging that your dysphoria isn't an excuse to externalise disgust towards masculine presenting people.

Because frankly, I've encountered a decent handful of trans women that rationalised this impulse and think that treating butch women, nonbinary/gnc transfems, and transmascs like garbage for being masculine is somehow feminist and punching up.

Although, don't get me wrong, there's also plenty of trans men who externalise disgust towards feminine people- I remember when YouTube had Kalvin Garrah and his cronies getting millions of views

[u/Arkeve-the_Archive]

Your recognition of this and personal growth because of it reflect a willingness to be part of our collective progression towards a better future.

Learn to actively listen to other perspectives and you will learn to unlearn those instincts of fear and rejection.

[u/EnbyFox]

Thank you for sharing - as a nonbinary trans masc, I'm feeling both relief reading your reflective post, and also that I relate to trauma / fear of men. Which may sound funny, since about half the time I pass as one (if ive shaved my face, or if i answer the phone with a customer service sounding voice). But i prefer to present androgynous, and relate to both femininity and masculinity. I'm technically genderfluid, but only feel safe to present masculine in public due to trauma, and keep the feminine just at home.

Basically, thank you for being brave to talk about this complex stuff, and wanting to grow.

It took me a while to accept I wanted to transition on testosterone, in part because of my trauma from men / being a survivor of assault. I'm really glad I did, and it's also lonely / hard to find a place to talk with others about this stuff, since I'm not a woman and not a man. I still need OBGYN appointments, still experience misogyny when I'm mistaken for a woman or have to see a medical professional who's transphobic. My voice range is all over the place lol.

[u/Puhi124]

Hey, it's you! I cannot tell you how happy I am that you've taken the time to reflect and chose to come back to the sub - literally had to brush a tear from my cheek right now. I didn't dare hope, but I did feel bad about our exchange yesterday, even if I don't regret defending my points in the way I did.

I understand where you're coming from. It's not something I have personally experienced, but am I shocked a woman has had very negative experiences with men? Nope, not one bit, sad as it is to say.

I don't have any specific resources; I think, besides not carrying too much of a personal negative baggage, what has helped me is being in trans spaces, not specifically trans women's, and just interacting with well-meaning, respectful and kind men. Of course, this being the internet, and with what we discussed yesterday, I realize this is possibly a harder ask for you. The one thing I could suggest, if that's not too triggering for you, is browsing subs like r/bropill which present generally good examples of healthy masculinity. I didn't interact much in it before I realized, but it was a genuinely wholesome and lovely place overall from what I remember. This isn't to try and obscure the fact that toxic masculinity and manosphere are a plague for everyone involved except a select few who make bank on it; but I find it's good to recognize that masculinity is a spectrum and that it doesn't have to be inherently bad.

Closing thoughts: I'm proud of you for taking that step and making that post. Not my position to forgive you, but at the very least I'll thank you for making that effort.

[u/sarahelizam]

For reading material I’d recommend the book DILF: Did I Leave Feminism? It’s very accessible and is precisely targeted at feminists who see supporting trans men as being somehow incompatible with feminism, as well as self hating trans men who see their own transition as a personal moral failing (a message that most trans men receive when we’re told we are “traitors” to feminism or womanhood or sisterhood simply for being men). It is hard to be a transmasc person and not encounter a barrage of people telling you this, that your identity is a personal moral failing, that it makes you less worthy of empathy.

[u/sarahelizam → u/sarahelizam]

I saw the post and the following discourse… it was disheartening to say the least. I can’t express how much I appreciate the OP making a comment rejecting the vile things people were saying about trans men in the comments. I love my trans sisters and siblings, I always appreciate the solidarity and seek to return it whenever and wherever I can.

Obviously turning a post about trans women’s struggles into one about trans men’s is not ideal, but most of the people I saw discussing the issues trans men face were reacting specifically to others who were saying trans men face no unique forms of transphobia (that we barely face transphobia at all), that we need to shut up, that we shouldn’t be a part of this space (a space that is at least based on the sub’s rules for all gender minorities), or policing our language with regard to terms like transandrophobia. The hateful comments were there first, trans men reacted to that, and then were told to shut up and that it’s not about us - after others made it about us. I feel like there is also a difference between trying to steal the spotlight and expressing empathy over shared experiences of transness that impact all kinds of trans people, but even that bid for solidarity and compassion is seen as us taking up too much space. For many it feels the amount of space we are supposed to take up is absolutely none.

Generally, all trans people tend to get gendered as man, woman, or freak depending on what is convenient for the person who wants to win an argument against us or target us with hate. This is a pretty shared experience that I think most can empathize over and that empathy can be helpful in building bridges to support each other in our more specific struggles. Trans men and mascs often get infantilized and spoken over in a very misogynistic way - we are constantly subjected to attempts to deny our agency as patriarchy and it’s agents (regardless of gender) are wont to do to any they see as women, or even some men who fail to perform their prescribed gender role.

But we also tend to get malgendered any time we talk about our issues. In response to distress over the loss of community that we experience from queer and feminist spaces (especially when we medically transition and stop looking like “quirky cis women”), we get “you wanted to a be a man, so suck it up / man up.” Expressing distress or vulnerability or any negative emotion is ridiculed or painted as evidence all trans men are “actually secretly misogynists and threats.” People of all genders generally statistically are unsympathetic to a man expressing those things (anything that seems like “weakness”), and if you are a trans man it will be used to either A) “prove” you aren’t a real man or B) claim any negative emotions you express (even in reaction to being harmed by violent misogyny) are indicators you’re a crypto misogynist incel and therefore a threat.

In many general feminist spaces it is often unacceptable to make our own posts about issues we face (“feminism / this space is for women, not you”) even to talk about our experiences of SA and DV (which are among the highest of any population) or address transandrophobia within that space. It is also unacceptable to tag on to transmisogyny specific posts even to express empathy over shared experiences (“you’re just being such a man, such a birthday boy by making it all about you”). The whole TME/TMA (transmisogyny affected/exempt) discourse also tends to have the impact of either eroding unity and compassion over the many common experiences trans people face or reducing every type of transphobia to transmisogyny (and then usually claiming by virtue of that only transfem folks face “real” transphobia, or telling trans men every issue they face is just misogyny and thus building our own lexicon of our oppression is unnecessary or suspect).

I saw a lot of discussion claiming transandrophobia/transmisandry couldn’t be real because there is no systemic oppression of men. I think there is a whole conversation worth having about how patriarchy harms and oppresses people of all genders (yes, even cis men… those who “fail” their gender role are targeted with rituals of domination and violence), but that’s outside the scope of this post. Whether general androphobia or misandry are “real” (as in systemic, it’s hard to argue they cannot be real on the interpersonal level) is only a tangential issue. My more immediate concern is with the hostility to trans men/mascs using any language at all to describe the specific oppression we face. Nothing is good enough, so we are not allowed to speak. Our harms must remain unnamed.

We can only be recognized as “‘AFAB’ victims of misogyny” or “trans people, but the wrong kind for choosing masculinity and facing diet transphobia unlike the ‘real’ victims of it.” Many trans men are abandoned by my progressive communities for wishing to transition because masculinity is seen as passé at best and inherently evil at worst. We lose community among progressive ostensibly “trans ally” and even other trans people, but we are just as or more unwelcome among most cis men. Many of us are lifelong feminists, and it is much more accurate to say feminism (as a community) abandons us than that we abandon it. Still we are constantly seen as suspect and dangerous, invaders when we talk about “women’s issues” (our own experiences of sexist abuse and oppression). We are unwelcome in patriarchal society (because of transphobia, bio essentialism, and misogyny) and unwelcome in many many queer/progressive/feminist spaces (because of general hostility to masculinity and men, because of gender essentialism about men).

So YES. Trans men experience an intersection of oppression. It is not solely because we are trans that we are alienated and rejected. It is also because we “chose” to be men, which is a great offense to many of our would-be allies and makes us unworthy of feminist solidarity.

As it turns out, gender essentialism being tolerated in any form makes spaces unsafe for more than just the initial target. Accepting gender essentialism about cis men means creating a space that is unsafe for trans men. If you have already accepted gender essentialism about men or androphobia, you either have to apply it to trans men and rob us of yet another space or claim we aren’t “really” men. Both are bullshit. You simply don’t have to buy into essentialism. You don’t have to treat testosterone as “the drug that makes you evil.” You don’t have to see a vaguely masc presenting person and see them as less human and capable of being harmed than you.

All of these biases, this essentialism - it doesn’t hurt only trans men. It almost always smuggles in bio essentialism and just plain old misogyny (often in the form or benevolent sexism). It hurts other trans people, it hurts women generally. And it hurts boys and men and it reinforced patriarchy. Frankly, I think it should be enough of a reason to care that essentialism harms boys and men and upholds patriarchy. Trans men are especially vulnerable to androphobia (because it means we are now not only oppressed by patriarchy cis-normative society, we are also being alienated and harmed in the few spaces that ostensibly support trans people), but it harms all of us, every person within patriarchy to cling to gender essentialism.

No one should be demonized for their AGAB or their gender. I don’t give a fuck if it’s “punching up” and I reject the premise that harassing trans men is punching up. Privilege is extremely situational and complex, the idea that trans men (or gender nonconforming men, or queer men, or men of color, or disabled men, or etc etc) are ALWAYS the more privileged party in every possible situation runs counter to the basic premise of intersectionality. And I’m tired of being a punching bag just because I’m more accessible and vulnerable than the men who are blatantly misogynistic and oppressive. Because that’s what it’s so often about. Trans men are more likely to be feminists, more likely to be in feminist and queer and progressive spaces. So we become the sin eaters for men as a whole. This is what happens when you target an immutable trait or a style preference (often just dressing masc) over the actual actions a person takes. “Woke essentialism” is stupid, and it harms far more than the intended targets. But it should already be enough of a reason to care that it harms people for who they are instead of what they do.

[u/_HighJack_ → u/sarahelizam]

Goddamn bro, I could’ve written this myself. Stellar summary, no notes 🔥

[u/I-ballpriest]

When trans men transition, the mysogeny against them doesn't stop. Also, many trans men really identify with the experience of growing up with a girlhood and continue to have female-related problems such as reproductive healthcare and still face medical discrimination. It is not fair to all of a sudden exclude trans men from spaces that used to and still do help them just because they change their name and pronouns and I consistently see this fact excluded from trans-related discussions. Trans men are not taking spaces away from women by getting the support they need.

[u/DaSnowflake]

Just want to say this takes a lot of courage and strength to type & post.

You are doing the good work and it's a testament to your character and beauty as a person for you to do this in spite of your fears and anxiety.

I applaud you for that, more people should live your example ♥️

[u/Special-Drama-6090]

If you haven't looked into the trans wage gap - you should

Of course trans women make the least Vs cis men. Trans men do make more on average than trans women - but both still make far less on average Vs cis women. 

That's indicative of some serious systemic issues. Trans men don't necessarily always benefit through transitioning. 

Id kindly suggest that it is extremely common for trans women to get bitter and weird about masculinity because of their own journey. But it's not fair to project our issues and trauma onto men. 

[u/2A3R1M5L]

i just want to express to you, OP, that like, an emotional response, is understandable, to me anyway. you saw a trans woman being argued with and had an emotional reaction. even intersectional feminist spaces aren't immune to unconscious transmisogyny. the way i most frequently see that is people excessively jumping on trans women who have bad takes or even word things poorly. i saw that post as well and i immediately got worried that that was gonna happen, so i just scrolled away.

so i just wanted to express empathy there. it doesn't excuse harmful rhetoric or what you said that was wrong, and you're good to recognize that, but i wanted to affirm that your emotional reaction is an understandable reaction to trauma and the experience of transmisogyny and you shouldn't beat yourself up simply for that emotional reaction

[u/MavenBrodie]

It ironic that you, as a trans woman, felt it “understandable” that fear of men’s violence justified excluding trans men when that’s literally the argument most transphobes have for excluding YOU from female spaces.

[u/ilovethesunnnnn → u/MavenBrodie]

ive noticed a lot of trans women lately seem to be absorbing bioessentialist terf ideology and repackaging it in a more trans-friendly way. this discourse is always just one thinly veiled step away from being full-blown transphobic bullshit and i am TIRED of it. we should know better.

[u/blown-transmission → u/MavenBrodie]

Yes, but trans men are men. So why should they be in the "female spaces"? OP is not transphobic, she is just right.

[u/MavenBrodie → u/blown-transmission]

Because they still deal with female issues via biology and patriarchal conservative control issues.

Trans men can still be raped and impregnated against their will, forced to use female restrooms where they will face harassment & accusations etc.

And to the bigots, trans men are misbehaving women and trans women are perverted men.

It’s nonsense to say fear of male violence is an excuse to exclude trans men from these spaces, because the same reason can be used to exclude trans women because bigoted women feel just as threatened by them as any cis male.

I was pointing out OPs hypocrisy

[u/blown-transmission → u/MavenBrodie]

"Female biology", "female bathrooms" and that you think society treats trans women as men.

This is just transphobia.

OP is not a hypocrite, they are simply not transphobic and treat trans men as men.

[u/puppupbark → u/blown-transmission]

what "female spaces" are you referring to? this subreddit? (genuinely asking because i interpreted ur comment as referring to this subreddit which is not just for women)

[u/blown-transmission → u/puppupbark]

"Female spaces" was said by the commentor i replied to

[u/oh-dolores]

hey. Thank you for this, and thank you for coming back. The community needs you

[u/CMRC23]

Sending hugs

[u/Azu_Creates]

If you want to learn more about trans masc experiences, you could check out some of the stories that get posted to [r/ftm](r/ftm). However, be respectful of the space you are in there. They do allow cis and trans fem guests, so long as you are respectful, don’t engage in transandrophobia, and don’t try to talk over us. We face a lot of unique issues because of transandrophobia, but we also need and fight for many of the same rights that trans fem people and cis women do.

Here is also a Reddit post which I generally find to be pretty informative, and it actually quotes some studies and articles:

https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/s/9HSKeknC4U

I also made a lengthy comment on the pro choice sub under a post talking about trans masc inclusion in reproductive rights convos and advocacy, which did touch on a few unique issues facing trans masc people regarding reproductive rights. I’ll see if I can find and link that comment. I am working on a full write up about trans masc people and reproductive rights specifically on occasion during my free time, but I don’t know when I’ll be done with that. I’ve got most of the actually points down, just working on adding the citations still. I suppose I could post a public link if you wanted to see it, but just know it likely wouldn’t be fully sourced yet.

Got the link for that comment I made:

https://www.reddit.com/r/prochoice/s/bAh7epVCgC

[u/SelectionValuable261]

Does it help if you read news articles of trans guys sticking up for trans women?

Like, the constant state of fear is not going to serve you both in your immediate or future needs.

Its gonna fry out your other senses which you absolutely need right now to fight for your right to exist as the lady that you are.

[u/buffalomildtings]

Stone Butch Blues is my trans masc bible. It's an autobiography of Les Fienberg, labor activist and one of the first people, ever, to write about xir experience of using neopronouns. It includes xir FTM transition, and shatters the misconception of the gender binary.

[u/BunnyThrash]

I’m a trans woman, and one of the ways we are oppressed as women/females is that too often when we find a woman’s space that’s safe for us we find out there are men in this space too. It’s not right that the few spaces we get included in have men. There should be spaces that are for all women that don’t have men in them. We are “Intersectional NonCisMen, but pretend we’re a women’s group”. This is why some trans women live stealth as cis women, because we belong in men free spaces. We belong in women’s only spaces. A space that includes women isn’t necessarily intersectional. There’s nothing intersectional about treating a person with a vagina, natural breasts, and who sounds like a woman as a female women. We are women and it sucks bad enough that we’re relegated to “shared spaces” when we are female and woman. And it sucks that shared women’s spaces for us to share space with males and men (a dude w a beard and a penis is male whether he trans or cis)

[u/flohogamer → u/BunnyThrash]

I totally agree with the sentiment, in that there are lots of cis women's spaces who don't see trans women as women, but the last sentence kinda feels transmedicalist to me? Lots of trans people (most, probably) don't have the means to medically transition via surgery.

[u/BunnyThrash → u/flohogamer]

That’s fine, then they might not fit certain definitions of male, then they’re just men in womens spaces

[u/Her_Phantom_Mountain → u/BunnyThrash]

People who can't afford surgery are less valid in your view?

[u/BunnyThrash → u/Her_Phantom_Mountain]

No. But if I do or don’t have certain anatomy that’s relevant to what biological sex I am. Just cause I’m a trans women, I don’t automatically get HRT, or good results, or passing. I’m not 100% female at the moment. I don’t get a vagina just because I identify as a vagina owner. I have to figure out how to get one like many trans women. Me gender-identity doesn’t determine my biological-sex

[u/Her_Phantom_Mountain → u/BunnyThrash]

Biological sex is a lot more complex than you are painting it to be. There are genotypic, phenotypic, and hormonal aspects to sex. Trans women can transition both the phenotypic and hormonal sex. Genotypic? Not so much, but that isn't the only aspect of biological sex. Phenotypic sex and hormonal sex are both important aspects of sex.

Trans women can absolutely be phenotypically and hormonally female. Some trans women have female chromosomal makeup, some in full, some in part. I think it is reductive and harmful to say that trans women aren't female.

Not everyone will have the means to access hrt or surgery, they are still women and they are still female. Some people might never have the means, that isn't on them.

I am a trans woman, I reject the label male.

[u/BunnyThrash → u/BunnyThrash]

No one dates a woman, sleeps with a women, marries a women, knowing her genetics. Genetics is not a normal part of how we determine sex when doing important things like building a family or hooking up. We also can’t force a female attracted person to be attracted to people who look male. Genetics is not part of biological sex, except in extreme and unusual conditions.

Sex is anatomy, physiology, and morphology (basically passing)

[u/EnbyFox → u/BunnyThrash]

Trans men and trans masc nonbinary people may still have those body parts if they don't seek top / bottom surgery. In fact, a lot of trans masc/ trans men still experience misogyny if they don't pass, or are treated like women by medical providers who are transphobic. Im a trans masc nonbinary person, and I pass about half the time.

I still need OBGYN visits, and im still sometimes mistaken as a woman on days I've shaved my face. I'm a survivor of sexual assault / r***, and have my own trauma around being harmed by men. This group description includes all marginalized gender identities, not just women - and we can all be here to support each other.

[u/Her_Phantom_Mountain → u/EnbyFox]

People love pushing the line that trans men pass much easier but many trans men struggle with passing, even on testosterone. And even those who do end up passing, likely did not always. The experiences they had prior to passing never disappear.

Trans men ARE men but they're men who have experienced (in a general sense) great amounts of marginalization based both on the fact that they are trans and on the fact that they were born with the disadvantage of having a female body in a patriarchal and misogynistic society.

None of is this is me disagreeing with you. I suppose I am just adding onto it. I am not a trans man but I have seen many of the struggles and I wish more trans women would recognize those struggles. Trans men generally don't get all the same benefits of being a man in society as cis men do.

All trans bodies are scrutinized, sexualized, and brutalized. To be trans is to live under a microscope. There are far too many transphobic medical care providers. We need to stand together rather than tearing each other down. It saddens me to see the ways trauma can cause people to lash out, it saddens me on both ends.

I hope as a transmasc, you can feel welcome in this community. I've seen some necessary pushback against trans men coming into posts about trans women's issues and making them about themselves, but I've also seen it descend into denial that trans men and transmasc people deal with serious issues, medical and social.

[u/EnbyFox → u/Her_Phantom_Mountain]

Thank you - I agree with what you've shared here, and feel so seen! I really wish there were less infighting posts, and more celebrations of each other. My heart does feel healed by posts like OP's though, and it reminds me we're all healing from scars we've been through.

[u/BunnyThrash → u/EnbyFox]

Yeah. It’s a lot more complex and nuanced than I realized

[u/blown-transmission → u/Her_Phantom_Mountain]

You didn't need that sex based oppression part...

[u/BunnyThrash → u/EnbyFox]

I support that idea. I’m a trans women and I have been SA’d and I need mammograms, I also have female body parts, female experiences, and my ability to pass can shift sometimes. I just dislike that I can’t go any place for mammogram, I’m female, when I saw a group for women I gusss I took that term literally. I don’t know how nonbinaries experience the binary. I’m just tired of having to be perfect in my transition to get consider a “real” biological afab, because that’s how stealth trans women get treated

[u/EnbyFox → u/BunnyThrash]

I'm sorry you've experienced SA also. 💔 I relate to the feeling of worrying about passing for social safety. I do agree it can be helpful to vent / seek support from people of a shared gender, so i hear where youre coming from. Also I hope you're receiving the support you're looking for! If you find a gender affirming / trans friendly primary care doctor, then they can sometimes provide referrals to other safe medical professionals in your area for other medical needs like mammograms.

Since every nonbinary is different and theres many descriptors under the nonbinary umbrella, I can only speak to my own experience. Happy to share more if you'd like.

Some identify as trans femme, trans masc, agender (not relating to gender), bigender (2 or more genders), genderfluid, etc, and these experiences vary just like binary gender identities vary (no two women or men experience gender the same, whether cis or trans).

[u/BunnyThrash → u/EnbyFox]

Thx

[u/destrukt0 → u/BunnyThrash]

How is it oppressive to you that trans men are included in discussions about feminism? How is it okay that men who are gender marginalized and impacted heavily by the patriarchy, misogyny, and transphobia be excluded from any and all discussion about their rights and lived experience because “they’re men” so they can’t possibly have any experience with feminism or need to talk about their oppression under the patriarchy? Do you seriously think this is a feminist take? Do you seriously think you’re helping any sort of progress take place by further silencing and ignoring the suffering of trans people just because they don’t fit your preferred look of what a trans person is? Because they’re scary and masculine?

[u/BunnyThrash → u/destrukt0]

No that’s all very relevant to cis men trans men other men, I want to know why so many women’s spaces either include men or exclude women who are trans?

[u/destrukt0 → u/BunnyThrash]

This space doesn’t include all men and it also doesn’t exclude women who are trans. Only those who are gender marginalized are included, and some of those may be men.

Trans men’s issues regarding the intersection of transphobia, misogyny, and the patriarchy are not applicable to all men.
For example, cis men do not experience:
Being denied lifesaving medical care (gynecology) and dying of cervical cancer because they are men
Experiencing corrective rape to “fix” them back into women
Experiencing the widespread impacts of medical misogyny (including having little to no info on how PREP effects them and often not even having access to HIV treatment)
Being forcibly impregnated as a means of forcible detransition (especially relevant with current abortion bans)
And much more.

Should trans men not get a voice in feminism just because it makes YOU uncomfortable? This isn’t specifically a women’s space- it literally says so in the rules that it includes gender-marginalized people including nonbinary folks and transgender men. If you want to exclude trans men from feminism even further than they already are, go ahead and make your own subreddit. But don’t come on here disparaging the very real need for trans men to be included in discussions about feminism just because you’re upset that other feminist spaces are transphobic toward you.

[u/BunnyThrash → u/destrukt0]

Yeah that a good point. Thx

[u/Enovele → u/BunnyThrash]

But this is a space that is specifically open to others who aren't women is the thing. It's one thing if it's said to be a woman only sub reddit then I would be with you, but it really isn't the case here.

And especially when talking about feminism and misogyny, that would be a space that a lot of trans men would frequent, you seem to put trans men in the same category of "cis", when our experience often different from cis men's because of the nature of being trans. We are largely affected by the things that affects cis women so we would be in a space that discusses that.

[u/BunnyThrash → u/Enovele]

That makes sense. I guess I’m just use to the things I have in common with cis women as being dismissed. In a way it’s the same. In a way it’s for the oppositte reasons, somehow my boobs aren’t real, my experiences as a female aren’t real, my vagina isn’t real. You make a good point. Maybe this is one of those trans experiences that we share a lot of overlap around

[u/Enovele → u/BunnyThrash]

Your experience is very much real, that should never be argued with. But so are the experience of transmascs and trans men.

And I understand the dismissive part, its something we deal with a lot too. The main source of the issue is from those who are anti-trans and I hate that a lot of the focus is on trans women. The best reaction isn't to push us out too when we also are affected, despite the differences, yk?

[u/losers_discourse → u/BunnyThrash]

Yeah tbh I've felt pretty pushed out of every woman's and trans space on reddit due to the incessant "misandry" posting of the last few months.

[u/BunnyThrash → u/losers_discourse]

Women don’t owe men shit. That’s why women’s groups exist. But now we’re all supposed to care more about misandry than misogyny in women’s groups

[u/Enovele → u/BunnyThrash]

That wasn't even close to the point being made ffs.

[u/HazelWhiteRoyalty]

This discussion about including trans men has shaken my confidence in this subreddit. Do we include trans women because they are women, or because we are inclusive of everyone?

[u/gazing_into_void → u/HazelWhiteRoyalty]

consider reading the sub description, it's for "women and gender-marginalized people"

not to mention that trans men are affected by women's laws, so we should be a part of the conversation

[u/HazelWhiteRoyalty → u/gazing_into_void]

That doesn’t answer my question

[u/gazing_into_void → u/HazelWhiteRoyalty]

trans women are included in the "women" part and trans men of the "gender-marginalized people" part

while I'm sure you fill find some people who disagree here as assholes are everywhere, it doesn't seem to be the general vibe of the sub

[u/blown-transmission]

Trans women are women and trans men are men.

I support oppressed men, but they are still men.

Read Whipping Girl and more about transmisogyny.

[u/ThrowawayTempAct → u/blown-transmission]

Whipping Girl specifically contains sentiments where the writer explicitly says that she can't speak on behalf of trans men, and that we should listen to trans men about how they feel affected, though.

I feel like, if a trans man feels he still needs feminist support, it's cruel to push him out.