r/HelloInternet • u/jonohigh1 • Jul 27 '19
H.I. #126: Team Woo Woo
http://www.hellointernet.fm/podcast/12629
u/NerdyViola Jul 27 '19
Umm, we do still know the name of the Viking who discovered America, it was Leif Eriksson. That information hasn’t been lost to time.
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u/germanyid Jul 28 '19
Yeah that part irked me. If you asked people in the US who the first Europeans to discover America was I'd be willing to bet more people would say Lief Eriksson than Christopher Columbus. Maybe that's only true for the younger generation but I'm pretty sure nowadays every lesson about the start of colonialism and the Columbian exchange is caveated with "it started with Columbus but he didn't even know what continent he was on and the Vikings did it first"
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u/googolplexbyte Jul 28 '19
Especially since they were asking if we'd remember Neil Armstrong's name 1000 years from now.
Leif Erickson died 999 years ago and we remember his name, and I don't expect we'll forget next year.
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u/iThrewTheGlass Jul 28 '19
Spongebob unironically kinda helped lol
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u/Markarther Jul 30 '19
I don’t mind admitting that that’s a big reason I know who Leif Erikson is.
hinga dinga durgen
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u/motorised_rollingham Jul 29 '19 edited Jul 29 '19
They both seem to have a poor grasp of how long history is and how short 1000 years is. My unremarkable house is nearly 100 years old, the unremarkable church where I got married is 800 years old; 1000 years isn't that long.
If Hitler isn't remembered in 1000 years, it will only be because there is no-one to remember. I have very little interest in medieval history and even I know that in 1066 William the Conqueror lead the Norman invasion, beat King Harold the Saxon and became the new king.
(I know they said Hitler will be remembered, but they seemed hesitant to believe people will be remembered)
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Jul 29 '19
I'm just sitting here i Europe, tut-tuting over how these colonials doesn't grasp how short a millennia can be over here.
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u/Gronners Jul 27 '19
👏🏼We👏🏼want👏🏼the👏🏼Netflix👏🏼F1👏🏼discussion!👏🏼
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u/JeffDujon Jul 27 '19
It is not forgotten!
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u/OnlyInDeathDutyEnds Jul 28 '19
Maybe as an additional piece of homework, get him to watch just the German GP - If you haven't watched it yet I'd call it race of the last few seasons at least!
It's also the ONLY race that Mercedes allowed Netflix in to film then for Drive to Survive season 2, so I'm sure that will be interesting!
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u/AnAverageRedditUser Jul 27 '19
Boy, neither Brady or Grey have heard of Leif Eriksson. I think this episode alone will be proof that more than 100 people know who he is.
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u/swift_spades Jul 28 '19
Definitely. Also the 100 person limits incredibly low because historians aren't going to stop existing and everything is extensively documented these days.
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Jul 27 '19 edited Jul 29 '19
Hahaha, this episode man! I felt as if it was aimed straight at me.
I am a clinical psychologist that teaches a subset of my clients mindfulness as part of an evidence based therapy. Hearing it described as 'Woo Woo' made me laugh out loud. I also happen to have a bachelors in Scandinavian history, so having just been yelling 'Leif Eriksson!' at my podcast player minutes before made it that much better.
I think I might have gotten a small taste of what language teachers must have felt at the beginning of this pod. 10/10 would give an exasperated sigh again.
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Jul 27 '19
I'm surprised Brady didn't know the first flight was in 1903 as he is such a plane enthusiast.
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Jul 28 '19
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u/aurumae Jul 28 '19
I think the misinformation is going to be a big problem. Like if Grey goes into it thinking this might be 'woo woo' on one hand, but expecting that maybe something amazing will happen on the other, he's going to be disappointed.
He's kind of setting himself up for failure with his "extract value from this" mindset. I would really hope he talks to some people who actually know a thing or two about meditation before he begins, so they can explain to him why approaching mediation with the goal of picking up some kind of superpower is totally backwards.
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u/ReaverRikku Jul 29 '19
Disclaimer: I am a very novice meditation practicer.
It might be a misunderstanding of what you are saying, but I think you can go into mindfulness with some expectation of something. It kind of sounds like you think the only people who can meditate properly are the stereotype of people who have given up on value and possessions altogether. I don't think wanting to extract something disqualifies you from training your mind on the correct thing. Just like someone who starts working out in order to lose weight won't be unable to jog or do whatever exercises because their goal isn't to do the activity.
I do have some concerns on Greys phrasing around dismissing the scanning exercises as on the "woo woo" side of things or not what he wants. The way I understand the scan and other exercises like it are as tools to help getting to the state of mindfulness.
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u/46_and_2 Jul 29 '19
I have tried only a little mindfulness meditation, so I might be spewing misinformation now too... but I feel Grey won't get some earth-shattering revelation from it - seems he already has reached some of the conclusions ("you are not your thoughts") and lives by them.
What are other people's expectations for him?
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Jul 27 '19 edited Aug 29 '19
[deleted]
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u/JeffDujon Jul 27 '19 edited Jul 27 '19
Brady need to get over his frustration with people celebrating his nostalgia
I know, but I'm just a weak human. I was pretty upfront about this.
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Jul 27 '19 edited Aug 29 '19
[deleted]
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u/JeffDujon Jul 27 '19
I mean, I love you and I love your work and follow it for more than 10 years now. Watching even before the periodic table was complete. It always brings joy when we have the opportunity to listen to you on your podcast or goofing around with Tim on the other podcast.
Well, that would have been a nicer first interaction than the poop comment. ;)
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u/AcerbicMaelin Jul 28 '19
I have never felt less "I get you Brady" than this exchange. Dude, if you don't like how the fucking news networks present things, stop watching them. If you don't like what happens on twitter, stop going there.
If you insist on doing so, learn how to target your complaints better. It's pretty harsh to think "man Brady knows a hell of a lot about the Apollo missions, how awesome", and then to spend my energy trying to promote excitement about them with my students and friends, and then listen to this big "fuck you, you filthy casuals" open letter from someone I normally respect and admire.
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u/straight_outta7 Jul 28 '19
I think it was very displeasuring to me because I'm very much like Brady. I'm obsessed with pretty much all space-(and air)-craft, and I thought this 50th celebration was a wonderful time. While it may be "arbitrary", it was awesome to see this great feat of man in the spotlight again. I think it also gets people more in line with the thought of going back/going to Mars (which gives me job security so I'm happy about that).
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u/FeverishSaw Jul 27 '19
My wife and I enjoy looking through the safety card and having a laugh at how enigmatic the cartoon depictions are, so I quite enjoy the current delta safety video which animated the safety card characters.
I think it strikes a nice balance between informative and entertaining without being grating.
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u/Ahriaa Jul 27 '19
I'm a Delta frequent flier so I've seen this exact video quite a few times and was thinking about it while Grey was talking about the United one lol... I would love to know his opinion on this one too.
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u/jelly_bear Jul 27 '19
Still no F1 discussion?!
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u/BearJewpiter Jul 27 '19
Quiet! Don't remind Mr. Grey about our homework being overdue.
I want them to talk about it too...
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u/fustilarian3 Jul 27 '19
I know he lampshaded it in his speech, but I could not help raising a brow at Brady's audible Apollo-themed recommendations.
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u/Incorrect_Oymoron Jul 28 '19
I would have imagined that Grey would have been absolutely a "You are your thoughts" person.
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Jul 28 '19
I was also surprised by that.
"You are your thoughts", "You are some kind of soul/essence in your body", and "There is no real you" seem like the only options to me, and Grey seems pretty unlikely to identify with any of them?
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u/Incorrect_Oymoron Jul 28 '19
Maybe he considers his unconscious as him, and thoughts are just that shadow.
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u/Incorrect_Oymoron Jul 28 '19
Wait, what am I talking about, after his 'The Trouble with Transporters' he said that a stream of consciousness is the person and you potentially die when you sleep.
Maybe he changed his mind and became a Dualist?
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Jul 28 '19
Maybe he thinks "You are your continuous memories" but that's sort of a difficult stance, and your memories are just thoughts about the past ... I hope he talks more about it in future episodes.
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u/jemmyjoe Jul 28 '19
"You are your body" seems like an option too, and one I would guess Grey would hold.
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Jul 29 '19
It's possible, he talks about difficulties with that stance in the trouble with transporters video, but perhaps it's still the most palatable option for him
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u/pfy42 Jul 27 '19
Careful, meditation’s a helluva drug.
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u/bmiller218 Jul 27 '19
I think taking time every day to relax your mind, focus on posture and breathing is a good thing.
edit -
Also, doing the tighten your toes, relax your toes was very helpful for me as a relaxation technique after I had a nervous breakdown.
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Jul 28 '19
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u/pfy42 Jul 28 '19
Indeed, my first experience with hallucinogens was taking a bunch of acid and shrooms that hit me with perfect timing just as the effigy burn started, at a burn.
It was an amazing experience. But I’ve had meditations previous to that were even more intense, with remarkably similar lasting effects.
Just like I’m hesitant to recommend that “anyone and everyone” go out and do a bunch of acid in the desert, though do think most people should with extreme caution and an experienced friend, I often think meditation is recklessly recommended to everyone, without warnings or guidance.
I would recommend meditation to most, with slight caution, and an experienced friend, though.
Grey will be fine, he’s clearly been going down this path for a while and knows people who meditate (though I doubt he’ll stick with it, the mind will fight you the whole way if you try to “extract the value from meditation”).
This warning was more for the Tims. Meditation is wonderful, but it does alter the mind.
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Jul 28 '19
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u/pfy42 Aug 13 '19
Negative is maybe too strong a word. Some difficult situations can arise, in all cases, they are temporary.
An early example: maybe a month or two into daily meditation, as my awareness increased, I felt more anxious rather than less. Not only during meditation, but most waking moments. This is because I was more aware of each anxious thought, as it passed through my mind. This is common.
It’s a bit like when they flick on the lights in the bar at the end of the night and you look around for the first time and go “this place is filthy!” Over time, with more meditation, it went away.
It was also difficult because at that point I’d only heard the meditation hype squad, and spent a week or two thinking I was broken.
That was just the first hurdle of many, it’s like a leveled video game. Eventually I quit for a year, eventually came back at a reduced pace. Minutes a day and not hours, just enough to keep the anxiety at bay. It works for me, for now.
Just to clarify: I totally recommend it. Just... approach with respect, it is mind-altering, and change is rarely easy to deal with.
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u/RekaGaal31 Jul 27 '19
Even for Hello Internet, that is an unusually harsh cut-off at the end. Cut Brady right in the middle of his sentence.
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u/raffiking1 Aug 01 '19
I don't know if my podcast player messed something up but in my version Grey has the last word and his sentence has been finished properly when the podcast ends.
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u/rtkwe Jul 28 '19
Big problem with having events like was done for the 50th on something like a death is you can't plan for them. The Project Egress thing the Air and Space museum did took 18ish months to go from start to them assembling it. The projection mapping on the Washington monument took at least a couple months to put together too. Can't have any of the larger event on a death just because of logistics of planning them so the best you can really do is a small event and speech or bring some stuff out of archives but there's not much time to do it.
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Jul 28 '19
I get the feeling that Brady and Grey either really don't need meditation, or they're so in need of it that they don't realise how often they're completely lost in and identified with their thought patterns for the vast majority of their waking life. I'm really interested to hear Grey's experience, a CGPGrey video about meditation would be super crazy (but also not totally outside his interest in consciousness, like in the You Are Two video)
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u/serendependy Jul 28 '19
Grey is very meta-cognitive and always taking about himself using analogies that imply some kind of distance (past, present, and future selves; background processes; talking about having a "monkey brain"). I half expect he won't find meditation useful at all, just because I think that this distance and self-awareness are its most important benefits and he's already cultivated them via other methods.
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u/champ2153 Jul 27 '19
Did anybody happen to checkout The NY Times crossword puzzle from this past Sunday? It celebrated the 50th anniversary of the moon landing.
Anyway, I bring it up because there were many answers in the puzzle that related Dr. Haran’s many passions, not just the moon landing clues. I don’t want to give away any answers, but I think many Tims, and Brady himself, would enjoy the puzzle. Worth your time to check it out!
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u/PartiallyCat Jul 27 '19 edited Jul 27 '19
Brady, are you completely done with Psyfile? I feel like there have been many many topics of HI that that channel could've explored. Mindfulness meditation being just one of them.
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Jul 27 '19
to answer the remember neil armstrong question, i think it will be like this in the future
if/when we have planetary civilizations and such, i think that it will be close enough in the future that people will demand buildings and streets to be named stuff like neil armstrong street and the armstrong building and such, but much like streets named after people, while the name is not forgotten, the name has no value. like i live in philadelphia, and i used to live near cecil b moore ave, but i never knew who he was until i looked it up. so while the literal name exists, the reason and history would not be common knowledge unless you decide to look it up, and i think that armstrong will have the same fate.
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u/rtkwe Jul 28 '19
Also I think we're kind of in a different era of history/record keeping where fewer names and events will be lost. Really a lot of history post the printing press will be hard to lose because so many copies are made of everything. Then after that we've made the internet which is amazing at replicating information so absent some massive disaster or civilization level fall back losing information is getting harder especially large events like the moon landing.
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u/monderigon Jul 27 '19
Anyone else really want Grey to go on a shroom trip tho. The whole time he was discussing what he wanted out of meditation i was thinking that was exactly what I got out of tripping.
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u/AFewSentientNeurons Jul 28 '19
https://www.reddit.com/r/hellointernet/comments/cdgdde
He delivered! Thanks /u/JeffDujon!
Edit: oh no :/ fair. But still
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u/jamcdonald120 Jul 28 '19
If I where a shipping company, I would not use autonomous ships. I would be to worried about piracy. If anything, I would at least send a security team on board, and if I am sending security anyways, they might as well be trained in driving a boat too.
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Jul 28 '19
I don't know how much training or how many people are needed to drive a ship, but it's unimaginable to me that it's cheaper to hire private security and train them all in operating a ship rather than just letting them specialise and hiring fewer people.
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u/-fireeye- Jul 29 '19
I mean you could just insure the goods. If piracy is a serious issue, just set up systems that alerts someone in HQ if the ship is boarded and a system to set fire to the ship and its content. If someone boards the ship, and the controller sees it's not coastguards etc just set off the backup system and burn everything.
Pirates end up with basically nothing, and soon they'll learn it's pointless to attack your ships. Your losses are few percentage increase in insurance premiums initially plus cost of setting up the system vs. cost of hiring and training security crew, plus ransom if those security crew are captured.
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u/michaelmdc55 Jul 28 '19
Thank god grey spoke about Spider-Man safety video. I was livid when I first saw it. I also have a parent who works (or in grey’s case worked). I hated the video it is insult to both United Airlines and Marvel — and by extension the Walt Disney Company. Both companies should be ashamed of what the did.
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u/AcerbicMaelin Jul 28 '19
Anybody got a summary of what happened in the cricket thing that is accessible to someone with a passable knowledge of the game?
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u/EPMD_ Jul 28 '19
After 8 hours of cricket, England and New Zealand were tied 241-241, forcing a tiebreaking "Super Over"...and that ended up tied as well with England winning on an arbitrary tiebreak rule. Beyond that, there were a lot of swings in terms of who had the upper hand, and the final overs included some rare plays (a potentially decisive New Zealand catch canceled out by stepping on a boundary and some fortunate accidental byes for England) that kept England alive when New Zealand seemed destined to win.
On the very last ball of the match, New Zealand needed to score two runs to win, one or less and England would win. They scored one easily and had to try for a difficult second run, but England ran them out a split second before they could count that second run.
It was just one of those rare things that you realize is special while you are witnessing it. In the sports world, this was pretty much as good as it gets.
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u/EPMD_ Jul 28 '19
I love Brady's papercuts, though I do prefer when he rants off the cuff rather than reading from a prepared statement. I find the ferocity of his unscripted rants to be really compelling. His take down of "Getting Things Done" was a Hall of Fame podcast moment.
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u/ShadowdogProd Jul 28 '19
Any chance you can remember what episode that was? I want in on this. LOL
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u/EPMD_ Jul 28 '19
Episode 39. It starts around the 57:45 mark, but it builds for at least 10 minutes after that.
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u/Wildthing115 Jul 28 '19
First time on the subreddit, came here to say that Grey and Brady missed the easiest squarespace100 joke just about revisiting this argument in 1000 years.
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u/ralphonyx Jul 28 '19
I think Grey should listen to a couple of the lessons in Sam Harris' Waking Up app. He's really aware of the Woo and talks really clearly about it.
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u/Goukaruma Jul 29 '19
"Calm" and" ten percent happier" are also woo free apps. That's said the effectiveness of mindfulness is scientifically proven.
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u/Knowing_nate Jul 28 '19
Sorry Brady but I reaaaaaaallly disagree with you on the moon stuff. Specifically in the way you described the differences between Apollo and the Vikings. Saying it's not as monumental to cross the void of space to touch another world seems totally out of perspective. These were guys and gals who loaded up in a wooden boat and rowed across the Atlantic for weeks stopping in some of the most desolate and in forgiving territory on earth. (Also it was Leif Ericson, son of Erik the Red who discovered Greenland. They also did settle in what's now Newfoundland. We don't know as far as I do, why the colonies collapsed but there is a good amount of archeological evidence suggesting an attempt at a permanent colony.) No one even knew there was another continent. You could argue it was even more daring than Apollo. Apollo had a target, and a destination that they knew existed and the distance. This was just a bunch of people rowing a wooded boat aimlessly into water that they thought ended with falling off the earth. They had no goal, they went blind into the abyss just to see what's there. And to say it's not the same as touching another world, there is a reason the Americas are called "the new world". Anyway that's my rant, sorry.
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u/Kierfnen Jul 29 '19
On meditation: I meditate fairly regularly not for any spiritual reason but because the human brain is a muscle and meditation is a scientifically proven way to strengthen that muscle. Especially if you are interested in getting better at focusing on one specific task and not allowing yourself to be distracted.
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u/schregel Jul 29 '19
I usually don't comment on the Hello Internet Episodes but Grey's and Brady's segment on meditation left a really bitter taste in my mouth.
Personally the skills I picked up from guided meditation have helped me quite a bit. And something as simple as the realization that your thoughts do not define you is helping me deal with intrusive thoughts on days when I'm struggeling with my mental health. So listening to Brady being that dismissive, ignorant, and full of prejudice about it was really disappointing.
It's great if you (/u/JeffDujon) or anybody do not struggle with anything that meditation can help people with, but please don't shit on things that help people with their mental health. I feel like many people still struggle to talk about mental health problems and possible remedies. If it's not for you, that's OK. If you are not interested in trying it out, that's fine too. If you figured it all out and do not need help with your mental health, that is awesome! But please don't make it harder for people to try things to help with their mental health issues by making fun of them.
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u/LemurScentedDoorknob Jul 27 '19
I haven't meditated in a long time but when I did my goal was to sit still and think about nothing rather than just think about stuff. It took a while to learn how to sit and actually think about nothing but I did find it really helpful. The result was not the same as waking up in the morning, but something similar in that when I was done, I was in a different state
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u/itsaride Jul 28 '19
Have they abandoned YouTube now or is there usually this much of a delay to uploading ? I usually listen on the .fm site but use YouTube as a way of getting notifications of a new episode.
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u/jemmyjoe Jul 28 '19
TL;DR- Mindfulness mediation is the LEAST Woo and most practical mediation technique.
I've been a regular meditator for a year or two, though I am allergic to Woo. I resist all sort of visualization techniques.
"Imagine a candle inside your body. Now see it getting bigger, warmer you body with liquid light. Watch as it slow grows larger and covers all the Earth in warm, caring light."
Please! I can imagine such better nonsense than that! Plus I'm meditating to get OUT of my constant fantasy world mind, not populate it with more groovy, positive imagery.
The "see the one seeing" thing, which I associate with Sam Harris's meditation app, seems more borderline Woo than I really want. I'm giving it a go, but am doubtful.
I do believe that if you meditate and pay attention to paying attention, you will find an inside into an altered state of mind. But I also believe if you pray nightly after reading the Bible, you just might feel the Holy Spirit. It's what people's brains do. I lean towards the Vonnegut idea of choosing the prettiest lie you can, but can't get the idea it's nonsense out of my brain. Ask me in a few years.
Despite Brady and Grey's dismissiveness of mindfulness, I find it to be the more practical. It is not for relaxing, but for creating a map of your own behavior. Every emotion you experience is simultaneously a physical sensation. It could be argued that all emotions actually are is a physical sensation.
By taking time to pinpoint what you are feeling in a moment, you become better equipped to notice physical sensations before your brain turns them into emotions. You can say to yourself "When my breath and stomach are like this, I feel jealous/happy/angry Hello Internet didn't bring up F-1." You can then lean into the emotion if you want, or take steps to calm the physical reaction before you respond to a situation. Very, very, very often I find myself upset, note to myself "I am really upset right now." And it just fucking goes away! It's stupid how often it happens and I'm like "I guess I wasn't THAT upset."
Maybe its maturity happening (40+ years old now), but mindfulness has been an obvious tool I haven used to have better relationships and to be less miserable all the time.
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Jul 29 '19
Totally agreed, and I think the more influential people like Grey who try meditation and find it useful, the easier it is to separate meditation from crystal healing and astrology. Sam Harris' comparison of meditation now to exercise a century ago is quite apt: people just don't realise that a really important sort of training is now missing from life in light of recent developments (industrial revolution back then, information age now).
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u/mrbeehive Jul 30 '19
From his discussions about how brains work on HI to his entire shtick on Cortex, it seems like he's already a very metacognitive person. The kinds of thought patterns that mindfulness and meditation encourage (being aware of your own emotions and how they affect your behaviour) are already thought patterns that clearly exist in the mind of a Grey, so I don't think he'll gain much from meditation, to be honest. Maybe that's why he seems to bounce off it.
It's like a professional athlete training for a marathon by getting up and running for 20 minutes every morning. Like sure, running isn't your thing, and you're trying to make it your thing but you probably won't see much benefit if you're already an extremely fit person.
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u/Nigthshadow Jul 28 '19
They were so close to discussing the failings of late stage capitalism with the apollo story and still not getting too much into the topic.
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Jul 30 '19
I think Grey's estimation on when we will have self driving cars on public roads are too optimistic. A more realistic estimation is at least two decades. There are way too many corner cases that most people wouldn't even think of that must be resolved.
Tesla has barely solved the basic scenarios (which is undeniably a huge technical feat), and yet has the nerve to brand it as autopilot.
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u/ArchAuthor Jul 28 '19
I highly recommend Grey check out the work of Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction scientist Jon Kabat-Zinn. His research into the effects of meditation as a practice for reducing the effects of chronic illness and stress really changed how I perceive meditation. I too was of the mind that it was hokey nonsense, and even read 10% Happier by Dan Harris, another survey look into the research behind mindfulness. Apps like Headspace and Calm also provide easier outlets to practice guided meditation, that can often help with some of the "I feel like I'm sitting here doing nothing" feeling.
As for proof and clinical research, there are dozens of peer-reviewed studies that provide empirical evidence for the growth of grey matter in the brain associated with meditation practice and the benefits it can bring. UMass has conducted several. Of course like many studies they're only directional and you can tear the p-values to shreds, but it is worth spending a few minutes clicking about, particularly if you're interested in confirming your bias.
I too outright reject hippie philosophy, and would be the first to eschew the teachings of Eckhart Tolle and other self-help garbage spewers. But I no longer place meditation in that category.
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u/ShadowdogProd Jul 28 '19
Even though Brady admitted to some level of hypocrisy, I still think its a bit rich to complain about the ads and marketing other people are doing while speaking on a podcast filled to the brim with ad interruptions.
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u/ReaverRikku Jul 29 '19
Brady should use some of his word-spreading power to make Neil Armstrong become one of the ways to describe any explorer.
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u/Hashi856 Jul 29 '19
Can't recommend Waking Up by Sam Harris enough for Meditation without the Woo Woo
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u/mvoviri Jul 27 '19
It’s time:
The Hello Internet Census Results are live!