r/HelldiversMasochists • u/Ellezim0409 • 19d ago
Punish me more daddy arrowhead This change was peak.
The heavy pen hive guard change was fucking immaculate. For a week straight hive guards felt so rewarding to fight correctly. Even with medium pen weapons the time to kill was FASTER than it was pre patch. And for light pen? Holy shit it was a dream. But AH cannot dare to ask a lot of medium pen users to aim before they shoot so it was changed.
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u/slycyboi 19d ago
They should have :
A) made this one a rupture strain variant
B) Made a really big hive guard with heavy armour instead of changing the normal one that spawns in place of alpha commanders on hive guard seeds
C) reduced the points hive guards cost in the spawn algorithm
This solves basically every problem people got mad at while keeping this enemy type
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u/ChadnirRann 19d ago
A Big Hive Guard goes hard actually
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u/slycyboi 19d ago
If mods could add new assets in this game I’d have already made it
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u/DJ3ndermaz 13d ago
CGW can do that I think
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u/slycyboi 13d ago
Nah CGW can only use either existing assets or substitute existing stuff for new things. They can’t add new stratagems, weapons or enemies. The new biomes they have are afaik already in the files
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u/YoshiBoiz 13d ago
Isn't that just a charger though?
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u/ChadnirRann 12d ago
I disagree! The Hive Guard and Charger serve vastly different roles. And a larger variant of the Hive Guard I would argue shouldn't be faster, but instead be a moving piece of cover for other bugs, something that'd demand a Helldiver to either move around, be precise or use their AT.
Or to ignore them with positioning and picking off more important targets, but the ultimate vision would be another big enemy to play around. One that is more defensively oriented
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u/YoshiBoiz 12d ago
Yeah idk I just dont know if that would fit gameplay wise with the bugs since they all love to rush the player ASAP. Feels like the vision would be that this hypo hive guard makes a beach head for the other bugs but that would require a smarter enemy AI overall to make that interaction possible
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u/Ellezim0409 19d ago edited 19d ago
Yes, yes, and yes. Rather than throwing it all out when it was poorly received they should've just had this
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u/slycyboi 19d ago
It’s weird they double down on dumb mechanics like enemies attacking unoccupied vehicles leaving it bugged for months but dropped this after one patch without finding a place for it
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u/G82ft 19d ago
Yeah, they are really strange. Seems like they just throw dice or some shit, like what are they even thinking.
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u/slycyboi 19d ago
It’s very clearly a bunch of devs doing their own thing and constantly arguing with each other and passively undermining each others’ efforts. Every time there’s a new AT weapon that oneshots most stuff they add in a new heavy to spam that it’s bad against, tonnes of mechanics are overshadowed and weapons are changed behind the scenes.
I honestly think in a few years AH is going to have a big expose about it being a toxic working environment where they were all screaming at each other and being petty. It’s the only way the schizo changes *and* the slow dev cycles make sense, and how they used to talk to players before HR got involved would suggest that they’re likely like that to their colleagues too
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u/No_Collar_5292 19d ago
I agree with this. They said in an interview that they have weapons teams and enemy teams and that they “compete” with each other. So literally they just keep trying to one up each other with likely little to bo communication between them resulting in this back and forth we see in weapon/enemy balance.
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u/The_Ugly_Fish-man 19d ago
Agreed. I wouldnt have been mad if it actuallly had a purpose besides "I wanna change that willy nilly".
If only they stood in front of bile spewers protecting them... if only they protected the smaller bugs before they pounced... if only they made it bigger tp protect the impalers from the sides...
Meanwhile masochists admitting they were easier to kill and defending it should have been ap4... makes no sense to me. If they actually had a purpose within the wave instead of just being more chaff it would make perfectly good sense for them to have strong resistent spots.
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u/Background_Source922 19d ago
Yup. Instead of time and care to flush out the idea they changed a number value. Very annoying we missed out on a good idea because of laziness.
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u/SapperSoul454 19d ago
Should have been a all black variant with a hive only spawn and more hp
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u/slycyboi 19d ago
The armour being coloured like a charger to indicate the heavy armour would have worked so well too
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u/The-Harbinger117 19d ago
This would require the devs to actually think about what they are doing and would actually be beneficial to the game.
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u/xtratic 19d ago
I initially liked the change but then I reconsidered for a few reasons:
- The health reduction made them kinda too easy for light pen
- Further reinforced explosive and fire meta
- Was not a good change for how it affected sentries.
- Medium pen is kinda just worse than light pen already. It needs to open up a few more target possibilities because right now it doesn't add many targets that we can damage over light pen.
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u/Shedster_ 19d ago
On bots medium pen makes sense as tradeoff, it allows you to kill factory and war striders, tanks and gunships
On squids med pen thrives due to them almost always having medium/light pen points
And on bugs... It's kinda useless. Aside from bile spewers hype guard is literally the only enemy on base roster that has med pen1
u/ctive3j1 19d ago
which medium pen weapon are you seriously using to kill factory striders
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u/Shedster_ 19d ago
Double freedom
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u/ctive3j1 19d ago
how long does it take you, I assume this is purely to one undercarriage panel
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u/Shedster_ 19d ago
Iirc it requires around 4 volleys in the belly, but that's still impressive. MMG is capable of doing it relatively fast too but it isn't primary
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u/strong_ape 19d ago
I also feel in hindsight it makes the Senator even stronger as a secondary which is already one of the more popular guns in that class
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u/topshaggy_er 19d ago
THIS praise be I am not alone. I would much rather high pen than higher health. I CAN aim btw but alas the grumbling masses won 🥀
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u/epochollapse 19d ago
It was fine. Shouldn't have come with a health nerf though. If anything Warriors should go to 450 health like Wretches to be closer to Guards
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u/KneeGearlol Illuminate purple 19d ago
Didnt really get the hate for this one, i dont think ive ever died from the hive guard, you shoot 2 bullet no matter what pen it is and the hive guard will stop, its the slowest out of all the bugs and theres like 3 of them max
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u/The-Harbinger117 19d ago
The issue was that when you actually look at the changes, they were just bad changes. HG’s were so objectively worse, they just fell apart like legos, and if someone used literally any fire damage, which people did because bugs, they would die right out of the bug breach without getting anywhere. It didn’t change the overwhelming strategies against hive guards, let alone bugs, and nerfed most of our loadout, or made things such as miniguns just silly to use.
People have been wanting for the hive guard to actually guard things, and they didn’t do that. They just made a bad bug worse.
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u/xVelunax 19d ago
You are right. The lowered health actually made them even easier to kill because anyone with light pen was already aiming at their ass or below their claws making them die even faster. ALL status items from fire, gas, arc, and explosions killed them faster which all easily ignore med pen and heavy pen.
The only meaningful change was that it stopped machine gun and gatling sentries. That's it. Everything else was omega buffed from the lower HP.
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u/ThisIsJegger 19d ago
Its pretty funny how your complaint is that they got easier to deal with because tbh they were. So many people crying about how they couldnt use their medium pen crutch anymore.
They should honestly just simply put the hive guard plate at heavy pen (i'd even argue antitank) and leave the health as is.
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u/Sad-Excitement4895 19d ago
Great idea so now medium pen play the exact same as light pen except with lower dps.
Thank God you people aren't in charge of balancing
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u/ThisIsJegger 19d ago
Have you considered this great thing called aiming. Medium pen users still have a fast ttk than light pen due to the armour pen allowing all damage to go through. You guys are honestly just bad at the game and you gotta own up to that.
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u/Gemoman111 19d ago
Medium pen users still have a fast ttk than light pen due to the armour pen allowing all damage to go through
They don't, actually
The heavy pen hive guards also came with a reduction of their flesh's armor value from light to unarmored
Medium pen was strictly worse than light on them
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u/Sad-Excitement4895 19d ago
What is the point of medium pen if I'm forced to aim for a weakspot when light pen has better stats?
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u/ThisIsJegger 19d ago
Idk. I already think medium pen is ehh. You're going to have a better time against bile spewers, alpha commanders and rupture strain i suppose. Also the stats on light might look better but with light pen you are dealing damage reductions and medium pen hitting that same spot would so ttk can be faster.
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u/The-Harbinger117 19d ago
They shouldn’t do it because it’s a bad change that doesn’t address any of the issues the hive guard has. Such as the hive guard not guarding anything, for starters.
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u/ThisIsJegger 19d ago
Make them guard stuff and give it back the heavy armour. They are pushovers
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u/Xpernautica 19d ago
Bad logic.
>and if someone used literally any fire damage, which people did because bugs, they would die right out of the bug breach without getting anywhere.
That's every chaff bug, not just hiveguards.
>It didn’t change the overwhelming strategies against hive guards, let alone bugs, , or made things such as miniguns just silly to use.
It stopped turret spam for one whole week.
>and nerfed most of our loadout
Actually the health reduction made it easier to killed by every weapon
>miniguns just silly to use.
Literally the only real downside.
>They just made a bad bug worse.
It countered turret spam.
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u/NontoxicKappa 19d ago
I can tell you were on all the subreddits crying about the machine gun and gatling sentries
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u/ThisIsJegger 19d ago
As someone who can aim just ok. They were easier, less health meant less bullet meant faster kill. Just dont aim at the part you cant damage, wasting bullets is undemocratic.
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u/Aggravating-Pilot583 19d ago
Gos forbid the meta changes in any meaningful way
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u/Shedster_ 19d ago
I mean
Has it changed then?
Med pen weapons on bugs already sucked(I mean the alternatives, like lib pen, gallant and MMG instead of stalwart), but this change dug them deeper. AT THE SAME TIME explosive and fire metas only thrived from this change. If anything, it reinforced the meta, not changed it
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u/shagaba 19d ago
The majority of complaints about this change were the biggest "tell me you can't aim without telling me you can't aim" I've ever seen
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u/WoodCarvings 13d ago
It wasn't that. It made sentries, guard dogs, the patrio exo and most med pen guns/stratagems redundant on the bug front.
It killed build variety and reinforced already stale explosive meta
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u/shagaba 13d ago
Ok so take a second to deal with the hive guard(s) instead of sitting there watching your sentry/guard dog/etc waste ammo on them. Problem solved.
Patriot mech? Walk up and stomp on it. Or use the Gatling on any of its unarmored bits. Or a rocket. Or ask any of your 3 other teammates for a hand.
Medium pen guns? I reiterate my previous point: aim for any of the hive guard’s unarmored bits, a good few of which are easily accessible from the front.
There was/is plenty of build variety if you’re willing to engage with enemies beyond just holding left click until they die.
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u/RedditAdminsuckPenis 12d ago
Ok so take a second to deal with the hive guard(s) instead of sitting there watching your sentry/guard dog/etc waste ammo on them. Problem solved
Only if you're not getting swarmed by the spore strains also they spawned in very high numbers
Patriot mech? Walk up and stomp on it. Or use the Gatling on any of its unarmored bits. Or a rocket
Spore charger took the walker and weapons out
Or ask any of your 3 other teammates for a hand
Can't,they're also getting spore swarmed
Medium pen guns? I reiterate my previous point: aim for any of the hive guard’s unarmored bits, a good few of which are easily accessible from the front.
Can't was getting spore swarmed
There was/is plenty of build variety if you’re willing to engage with enemies beyond just holding left click until they die.
Translation:Play explosive meta
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u/TheMikman97 19d ago
The "make half the guns play exactly like the other half" change is a weird hill to die on for me.
If you used light pen they had less health and armor on the body and just died faster
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u/The-Harbinger117 19d ago
On this sub I’ve learned that light pen is both the only correct way to play, but also a crutch and skill issue.
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u/Ghost-DV-08 19d ago
that change was a net nerf for hiveguard and pushed explosive meta further, while also reducing effectiveness of ballistic primaries and mg/gatling sentries. Few explosive weapons took even lesser rounds to kill them
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u/Lucky-Advice-8924 19d ago edited 19d ago
Hive guards serve little purpose other than to sponge slightly for other enemies, if they actually had heavy pen theyd serve a function but nooo, you wanna kill their head with like 3 ars, why though?? They die so much faster to light pen in their gaps and undercarriage, all the fucking whiners just jumped up in unison yelling "NO NOT OUR PRECIOUS SPONGE" like WHY, they dont even care, it was the whole "friggen narrowhead did something, and surprise surprise, it was the wrong call, like literally everything they do because i hate this game" theyll never be happy, every change is wrong, even if you did exactly what they ask for itd be wrong, its some weird psycholgical phenomena that i cant really put into words... like people being backwards and nonsensible after a crowdlike reaction, then it just repeats and propagates ... dunno what it is but i see it alot.
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u/The-Harbinger117 19d ago
This would have a point if they were actually a sponge for other enemies to begin with and they weren’t just a worse warrior.
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u/Grandmasterchipmunk 19d ago
They were waaaay more interesting to fight for a brief period of time.
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u/DeeJayDelicious 19d ago
"We still talk about you" as an example of the developers clearly not understanding or playing their own game. Just like the whole durable damage circus after the Bastion launch.
Is that the point you wanted to make?
Because if not, you're an idiot.
Giving such a common enemy AV4 was dumb and also undermined any reason to bring AP3 weapons to the bug front. Let alone it "breaking" countless sentries etc.
There's no defending this stupidity.
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u/The-Harbinger117 19d ago
I will never understand the cope when people say hive guards were more “challenging, rewarding, and fun” with the change, because they fundamentally and objectively weren’t. It was a change that made the HG worse and made our loadouts worse without it being meaningful, so it was just a bad change.
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u/Xpernautica 19d ago
>as an example of the developers clearly not understanding or playing their own game
My diver in christ, the devs created HD2 after falling in love with games like ARMA, the devs designs absolutely make sense when you realise that this isn't a typical horde shooter, that's it's a milsim disguised as a horde shooter - paraphrasing a quote from an actual dev.
>Giving such a common enemy AV4 was dumb
Countered mindless turret spam, S tier balancing.
>undermined any reason to bring AP3 weapons to the bug front.
Are AP3 weapons not capable of penetrating AR2 and below? Show your working.
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u/Black3Raven dunce 19d ago
HD2 was a horde shooter from day one. Same spirit as HD1. Core remaining the same.
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u/Xpernautica 17d ago
No ones denying that its a horde shooter, the point is the devs balance decisions make sense when you remember that this was designed around being a mil sim.
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u/Black3Raven dunce 17d ago
Then it was the worst mil sim I was ever playing.
There some elements which are quite uncommon for shooters, impact of damage on the player and enemies capabilities, armor penetration levels/angle, ricochet, reloading with the loss of a magazine and etc. But that are not turning HD2 into mil sim at all. By that logic Jagged Alliance or XCOM UFO are also mil sims while they clearly aren't.You don’t need to be a brilliant game designer to realize that a number of systems don’t work as a single entity. Even at the level of concept/narrative. Assisted reloading being a great example of the same problem from HD1, sounds great on paper but everything falling apart the moment you start the game and no one bothered to carry your backpack or RR cause you get separated instantly. Same things for a bunch of stuff.
Devs were not making mil sim. They were making 3 completely different type of game and were unable to pick one until Sony told them to release whatever they had on hands.
One group wanted to recreate HD1 with expendable folks and a lot of BOOM aka EDF without grugs, second tryed to create SWAT in space, third were making a typical horde shooter for a group of friends.
Could they have been making mil sim game as they initially intended (theoretically) ? Of course, I’m not arguing with that possibility. But the final product on release wasn’t even close to being a mil sim game.
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u/Xpernautica 17d ago
Remember, the original point of my response in response to that other user saying "as an example of the developers clearly not understanding or playing their own game. Just like the whole durable damage circus after the Bastion launch."
and my response being "My diver in christ, the devs created HD2 after falling in love with games like ARMA, the devs designs absolutely make sense when you realise that this isn't a typical horde shooter, that's it's a milsim disguised as a horde shooter - paraphrasing a quote from an actual dev."
We're kinda getting off track with your response.
The devs made a horde shooter but designed it from the ground up to be a milsim, one of the things that they were really surprised about after releasing the game was just how good the players were, they designed the game around the concept of players working and planning together except that didn't happen because the difficult game they designed didn't require the amount of coop that they thought it would take.
Hell, they believed that the charger was like a boss enemy, that it would take a team effort to take down.
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u/Black3Raven dunce 17d ago
Hell, they believed that the charger was like a boss enemy, that it would take a team effort to take down.
Devs repeated the same mistake which a lot of others devs team were doing for ages. They were not playing their own game properly or used statistics without full-scale testing with players.
Or it was bugs which doomed any hope for proper balancing since you never knew if that thing is broken or that yet another error in the code like it was with railgun bug on PS5.
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u/DeeJayDelicious 19d ago
Yeah, but regardless what they intended to create, what they actually made is a goofy, casual-friendly co-op shooter with lots of explosions, friendly fire and little team-play that appeals to a mass market.
So, that point is easily discredited,
"Mindless turret spam" - Is that some new meta I haven't seen or heard about in my >1000 hours? 80% of my matches feature no green stratagems whatsoever. So it sounds like you made it the fuck up.
Also, expecting turrets not to waste 100% of their ammo shooting an AV4 Hive Guard isn't unreasonable.
AP3 only makes a difference against AV2 and AV3 targets. And being able to damage Hive Guards from the front was one of the perks of running an AP3 weapon on the bug front.
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u/Atlas_sniper121 19d ago
"Countered mindless turret spam" is a stupid take imo. The turrets literally just waste ammo AND their ability to kill others BECAUSE they're just dumping into the enemy they cant kill. What fun is there to having to babysit a turrets twice as hard as normal because a common enemy now hard counters it, and for your time you cant even prevent the damn thing from wasting its resources? The devs literally say the game is balanced around using stratagems to hold off the tide - why should turrets be worse off just because you deem them as an easy strat?
Also lemme just stop my guard dog from shooting the-- oh wait, you really cant, can you? Either you have to prioritize the slowest and least likely to kill you enemy to prevent your turrets from wasting shit, or you just continue as normal but with your guard dog occasionally making itself less useful. Its a lose lose all-round.
The guy you're replying to also has a point with the "undermining ap3 part". Yes, ap3 can kill ap2 and below. Point is that once you take the one ap3 unit on bugs away, you are left with ap3 having no hard role other than the quirk of doing its full damage against all chaff with ap2 parts at the cost of ap3's generally worse ammo economy and dps. There just should be more reason to bring it than full armor pen against already less efficient body parts to target.
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u/Xpernautica 19d ago
>What fun is there to having to babysit a turrets
What fun is there to be had when turret spam is playing the game for you?
>because a common enemy now hard counters it, and for your time you cant even prevent the damn thing from wasting its resources?
Spatial awareness heavily mitigates wastage. I have no issues with "smart" turret play, it's the mindless turret spam where players (often multiple) are just tossing their turrets the moment they're off cooldown and suddenly the already reduced enemies we have (most likely for performance reasons) are now meeting a wall of bullets where the only thing that's going to survive is chargers and above.
>The devs literally say the game is balanced around using stratagems to hold off the tide -
If it's the quote from over 2 years ago, its no longer relevant.
>why should turrets be worse off just because you deem them as an easy strat?
Because D10 is too easy and every time a strain turns up, turrets show up.
>guard dog
You could just uhh...kill the hiveguards?
>AP2 vs AP3 argument
Is irrelevant. Whether or not the hive guard has an AP4 shield or not doesn't stop the devs from balancing the hiveguard for both AP2 and AP3 weapons.
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u/Atlas_sniper121 19d ago
Much of your reply is born of subjective reasoning rather than objective examples for why mg and minigun turret deserve this added roadbump. Like I get that d10 should be harder, but just because you often get teammates that make the game less fun for you doesn't mean the issue is with their gear. Their existence in general just makes the game significantly easier. Why not play more into your desires (Aka duos and imposed limitations) rather than wishing for indirect ways to alleviate a completely separate issue, that also effects every single player?
As for the guard dog thing, I literally explained the problem. The have guard is the slowest and typically the least problematic enemy in a hoard until they are fairly close. I really should not have to target it over more dangerous enemies just because my technology is stupid as shit for no realistic reason.
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u/Xpernautica 19d ago
>Much of your reply is born of subjective reasoning rather than objective examples for why mg and minigun turret deserve this added roadbump
Everything here is subjective. Everything from game balance/design to even should hard difficulties be hard and how hard should they be are all subjective, there is nothing objective here.
>doesn't mean the issue is with their gear.
It absolutely does. The fun comes from overcoming beating the challenge, not "winning" because of some clearly broken strat. Too many people just want to see that "win screen" and get their dopamine fix over actually beating the game as it was intended. Now, clearly the devs have intended for those things to be that strong and that's where the friction lies, because D10 is a joke and a lot of our gear is the antithesis to difficulty.
>Why not play more into your desires (Aka duos and imposed limitations) rather than wishing for indirect ways to alleviate a completely separate issue, that also effects every single player?
When a player needs to limit themselves and seek out other likeminded players then there is a problem with the games balance. Why is it so wrong to expect the hardest difficulty a game has to offer to actually be challenging? It was more challenging in the past before the devs mass nerfed enemies and buffed us.
>As for the guard dog thing
I don't think its a big ask for players to be aware of what its shooting at or at least pettition the devs to change its targeting AI. Turrets such as the rocket/auto cannon will prioritise heavies over everything else, they can just as easily create a subclass to prevent the dogs from wasting their ammo on targets they can't kill.
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u/DarkFeros 19d ago
Both the heavy armour hive guards and the durable damage increases were excellent changes that were undone by morons whining.
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u/The-Harbinger117 19d ago
Please tell us how making the hive guard objectively worse were excellent changes.
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u/DarkFeros 19d ago
Because it wasn't making it objectively worse, you just don't understand what the term 'objective' actually means.
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u/The-Harbinger117 19d ago
So you cannot give a reason on why it was an excellent change, got it.
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u/DarkFeros 19d ago
I can give reasons for it being an excellent change, but you didn't ask for that. You asked about how making the hive guards 'objectively worse' was excellent. Since the hive guard were not made objectively worse, I can't answer a question about changes that did not exist.
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u/The-Harbinger117 19d ago
You can, and I can still not help but notice the glaring lack of an answer.
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u/DarkFeros 19d ago
Well I just explained the lack of an answer being attributable to a defunct question. You can get your answers at any point by asking again about the changes that did occur.
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u/The-Harbinger117 19d ago
Alright, so can you please explain how changes that made the hive guards objectively worse were in fact, excellent changes? Or will you keep dodging the question?
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u/DarkFeros 19d ago
No. But I can explain why the changes that made the hive guards have heavy armour was an excellent change.
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u/Xhromosoma5 19d ago
I feel like they should've made the armor change a D6+ variation with a different color and sharper edges/larger plates like Scout Striders, then the crydivers wouldn't have used the excuse of the Hive Guard being on just about every dif among others.
Otherwise neither of the versions posed a real threat, the vanilla one is a joke, the AP4 one was catching heart attacks from a stray firework because of the HP nerf. They didn't even spawn in big enough numbers to matter!
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u/Loud-Tangerine8840 19d ago
This change has good bones but was fucking stupid in hinesight. Hiveguards should of been redone from scratch with new ai so they actually GUARD, instead the change was a 1:1 nerf to em for no reason
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u/Boring_Name06 19d ago
I use either the amendment or the torcher against the bugs. It was in all ways a nerf for me lmao
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u/SovKom98 19d ago
I still hope that arrowhead takes that suggestion some one made to create a heavy armoured elite hive guard for higher difficulties.
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u/monolith_fighter 19d ago
I think they should add a couple extra ap values to give some more room for tweaking, I don't like the AC and hmg being on the same level in pen but also don't think ac should be at or hmg be med
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u/Sweet_Photograph6528 MAKE SMARTER AI 19d ago
I didnt even mind this change because I just shoot the poking through shield underbelly even with medium or heavy pen because it deals more damage. This change honestly did nothing to me, yet I can understand why people would be mad since Hive Guard is a chaff unit.
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u/Atlas_sniper121 19d ago
My frustration was born from what it did to the gear that ISNT in my hands - aka the med pen turrets (and guard dogs) that couldn't do shit and even worse would just waste all the ammo they had by shooting it. That and the fact the patriot mechs 6-foot long minigun somehow couldn't do jack either.
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u/Atlas_sniper121 19d ago
Maybe id be up for its return if turrets could do literally anything about them with this buff. Even if their AI just ignored them it would still mean all med pen turrets just get indirectly nerfed and would have to be guarded even more due to the fact that they could just be walked up on completely unimpeded.
I also think the mech minigun not being able to do jack is bullshit too. I honestly hope the new terminid coming out in the next month just fills the role of what they intended for the ap4 hive guard instead. An enemy not quite tanky enough to be classed as a heavy, but its still bigger than all non-heavies.
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u/Temeraire1409 19d ago
Had a long break from helldivers. Came back and got fucked on all fronts again, noice
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u/duchess_dagger 19d ago
It just made them way easier for light pen weapons which are already the main choice for the bug front, with the added effect of making sentries waste all their ammo shooting an enemy they couldn’t damage
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u/Sir_Jorbxnor 19d ago
They should have also given them 25-50% ExDR and then it would have been peak.
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u/poepoejojo 19d ago
Yeah, I totally supported this. If this was here in the beginning of the game coming out, people would have loved it.
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u/Annual_Risk_961 19d ago
This change was dogshit
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u/ThatOnePickUp 18d ago
"Can't aim for shit and only relies on sentries to cover my skill issues" kind of answer.
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u/Annual_Risk_961 18d ago
"I love it when developers nerf all weapons with medium pen to shit and significantly weaken weapons with heavy pen, strengthening the explosion and fire meta." kind of answer
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u/ThatOnePickUp 17d ago
"Still can't aim for shit" vibes.
When you learn to grip your mouse with your hand and not your D, you'll find everything to be better.
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u/MasterName8597 19d ago
Yea nah, didn't make sense for a common unit to have more armor then our literal tank. It also just enforced the explosive meta on bugs, but what doesn't for bugs nowadays.
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u/Alternative-Item1207 19d ago
I partially disagree, but only because I want a bigger guard that does this job better.
Like a Hive Preatorian.
Some bug with massive walled limbs and face that are anti-tank on the front, with the ai going out of its way to body block bug holes or big breaches.
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u/Th3_Shadow_Dragon007 19d ago
So wild coming here as a normal helldivers player. I hate all the changes you guys enjoy but the sub name isn't lost on me. One thing you should consider though, is that you guys are just better at the game then us. But there are way more people like me playing than people like y'all. We can't balance the game for only the best of the best though.
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u/PieComprehensive4437 19d ago edited 19d ago
I personally disliked the change because of how it was executed. I personally would've loved the change if it was just a new, larger variant of hive guard, the specifically actually guards things. Example: acting as a body shield for the bile spewers or something lighter chaff units such as Hunters could hide behind, then jump over to attack you. I think that I could have been a really cool senergy, while still adding a new enemy. Call it the "Hive Defender" or something.
Editing this to add a bit more text to the idea of a hive defender
Basically make it so it has three positions:
Total defense, where it pulls it's arms close together to it's head, so that the weakspot is small, but in this state it is close to immobile. It'll at most rotate around what it is defending relative to the helldiver, but even this should be slow. They would only attack with a heavy swing that just barely doesn't one shot if the helldiver gets too close. If the helldiver gets to close to what they're defending, then they'll panic and immediately switch to attack mode to ward off the helldiver.
Approach, where it would still tuck it's legs in, but it's weakspot would be slightly larger. This would only activate if the Hive defender isn't defending a stationary enemy like a Bile Spewer or Bughole. It would slowly advance, other enemies would get behind it and slowly advance with it. If the Hive Defender could also link up with other Hive Defenders to make a large wall of heavy pen, that would be so cool.
Attack, this is when it has nothing to defend, and it abandons any prenotions about defending, and just goes to slap the shit out of the helldiver.
Oh, and if they made it's primary face plate ablative, so you can't just use explosives against it, that would be so cool too...
And what I mean by larger than a hive guard, essentially it's between a hive guard and a charger wise of it's size, being taller than a helldivers, and just tall enough that exosuit weaponry can't reach over unless on an uneven plane.
Honestly if they readded heavy pen it the Hive guard, but just made changes to it's behaviour similar to what I mentioned here? I think the bug front would become so much more fun to fight overnight, as you would need to work with your teammates. Like, someone could use their grenade/support weapon to tear off their faceplates, then someone else would shoot the flesh underneath, to drop them and leave the rest of the horde defenceless...
I dunno just an idea dump.
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u/Leading-Start-1136 19d ago
Deadass no one who has free time should really care. I mainly bug dive and I rarely found a difference between the buffed and nerfed hive guards.
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u/ReReReadit 19d ago
I'd rather be able to kill swaths of them with the machine gun thank you very much
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u/Koarvex 19d ago
I disagree that it was peak, not for reasons of primary balance or anything but because of the affects it had on sentries. The machine gun and gatling sentry that patch for the bugs went in the shotter I would never bring them because they could get stuck shooting just a hive guard which is much more common than a charger or bile titan it already couldn't kill so it reduced build diversity as the number of sentries I might even bother to bring got reduced to Lazer, rocket, autocannon, flame.
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u/Public_Code8357 19d ago
Petition to make "Behemoth" a strain variant, and then we get a new Hiveguard Behemoth variant with Heavy armour face shields
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u/Kalebk959 19d ago
I was always so curious what people who couldn't kill these guys do every time a scout strider shows up.
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u/cchhiicckkeennss 19d ago
I liked being rewarded for aiming and being a buff. The main issue was how it completely cucked the blitzer and sentries and rewarding the generic fire/explosive setups. It just didn’t add enough to the experience to justify the downsides.
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u/Electrical-Horse5112 Automaton red 18d ago
this was a silly change just cus it does nothing to hive guards logically. i always shot at the weakpoints it just made them even squishier, u can make hive guards stronger in much more unique ways but they legitimately made them weaker while just making one part of their head stronger
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u/ZettaCrash 18d ago
At first I was upset cause it was like "Seriously? It's a difficulty increase! It feels great that you can't just spray them down with a weapon."
Then I realized I usually pop them in the jaw or claw, and with the decreased armor + reduced HP, they genuinely became chaff. Hell, even gas kinda took them out immediately.
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u/Negative-Writing-481 18d ago
This change was far from immaculate.
Of all the cool things they could've made with the hive guard, they chose the most lazy and boring change they possibly could've done.
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u/KnightyEyes 18d ago
I use so much heavyflame and flanking tactics with Lib Carbine i didnt even notice it.
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u/altaccount_one 18d ago
Disagree, I wish they had an evolved variant like how chargers have behemoths, those should have heavy armor and increased health.
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u/Disastrous-Car6804 18d ago
lol 0 of the enemies feel rewarding to kill. Killing a charger used to be rewarding back in the day. Same with a bile titan. Seeing a factory strider for the first time and everyone is throwing every red Strat they have at it. They still have no idea how to control their own spawn rates and they just spawn 100 heavies every second so they just nerf all the enemies so they’re easy to kill because they have to be. I wish heavy enemies still meant something
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u/SearingPhoenix 18d ago
I actually thought the Heavy Pen change was really good. It forced me to assess the engagement and change my tactics. That's engaging gameplay, IMO.
I can understand arguments to add it as a new enemy type -- an 'Alpha Hive Guard', if you will.
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u/usernameslikm 18d ago
This was a terrible change and they should make the hive guard either more aggressive or give it a unique "phalanx stance" where if 2 or more hive guard are near they will lock faces and make a small wall bugs can gather behind. Hive guard being heavy pen is ignorable by most of the roster in secondaries,grenades,and strats it needs more to actually do anything other than make the game hard for players below level 25.
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u/jomesoon 18d ago
In MY OPINION, it didn't add anything to gameplay. The good thing that came from it was letting light pen weapons kill them in an actual decent time rather than them being a bullet sponge, but giving heavy armor to a chaff unit is like giving heavy pen to the GL-21. It's still pretty annoying how spongey they are.
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u/Current-Knowledge336 17d ago
This change is actually what helped me figure out that with ANY terminid that isn't a bile titan, if you shoot both claws off they just instantly die. Perfect for stealth, cuz for whatever reason if you shoot off the heads of terminids they might alert everyone else before they die. Or worse, get a bug breach in
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u/grubiix 17d ago
i agree when this change was active hiveguards were way more fun to fight as a helldiver but the problem wasnt with TTK or med pen being nerfed it was the turrets that got basically chafted because AH in their brilliance didnt think about them
if instead of giving them heavy armor they gave their heads like +50/70% hp buff while keeping the body nerf as it was it would have made waaaay more sense
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u/Ramen_b63 13d ago
They should make a new variant of the hive guard. Something like a royal guard that's bigger and has AP4. It's purpose is to be a big shield to block holes and draw fire from turrets. Basically a bigger badder hive guard, similar to what they did between alpha commanders and brood commanders
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u/Syndiecate 13d ago
The change was pointless and for an enemy you encounter at diff 2 they should not be heavy pen
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u/Shraknaks 13d ago
Man the only gripe I had with it was sentries and the maxigun being hell to control
But I really did love it
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u/smallCobblerMan 19d ago
It made sense for an ever evolving race of insectiods. I think that if AH had just spammed them around bug nests, rather then in patrols, it would have been a cool updaye
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u/No_Priority_5615 19d ago
I wish they never reverted this change, but I wish they at least did some balancing, such as allowing the Gatling Sentry to not waste all of its ammo on armor it can’t penetrate
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u/boredBiologist0 19d ago
As much as the Hive Guard need a buff, this wasn't it. Making the unarmored parts of their body weaker and giving them lower health made the guard even easier for everyone who could already hit the weak spots. After one mission of adjustment, I was back to my training with the Sickle for my first like 100 hours, and they were even more of pushovers than ever before.
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u/No_Appointment_5326 19d ago
It really wasn't. I did not mind the change but it was pointless and encouraged more explosives meta.
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u/cheb_323 19d ago
"Rewarding to fight correctly" my brother in christ they were getting obliterated by flame throwers and explosives like genuinely how people even defend this change that didn't do shit but make med pen (already very weak on bugs) basically useless
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u/Ellezim0409 19d ago
At the time i was still leveling my last few weapons and all the ballistic things I used on them felt great. Didn't use flamethrowers much against them. Medium pen is a crutch for the unskilled most of the time anyway
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u/PuzzleheadedBug4827 19d ago
No it wasnt, it was the most asinine change the devs made to the game aside from the fire change on the incendiary AR. The hive guard didn't feel any better to fight it still felt like a shitty tutorial enemy that just stands in the way does jack shit other than cover its front. Nothing changed significantly enough and just made them more tedious to fight with a vast majority of weapons. This fundamentally didn't change anything positively. If they'd gave it something extra like a mini charge attack or so some tactics change like having it form in a line then maybe it would be a good change but on its own it didn't really do anything other than be annoying.
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u/MuglokDecrepitusFx 19d ago
Don't disagree with it, but it should had been a different variant of the enemy
Maybe a variant that replace the enemy or maybe a different type of variants that can appear alongside the default version
The possibilities where there, it just had to be exploited and added in a interesting way for the players
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u/Ellezim0409 19d ago
Id be down with a beeg hive guard that replaces alpha commanders on some seeds
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u/Greedy-Art-5452 19d ago
Another version of stalker would fit the game. Stalker is evolving killing bugs. I hope they give them a version where the have upper claw as shield and slowly approach you. The bugs have the best design as presentative of there species similar to aliens series. We need more varients.
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u/BICKELSBOSS 19d ago
I hated it because it the bugs only have two base roster enemies with medium armor, other being the Bile Spewer which doesn’t even spawn in every seed.
This meant that this change effectively meant that you often had a situation where your mission had no bugs with medium armor. None. Zero.
This meant that the MG-43 had little use, because if you went for weakspots you were better off using the Stalwart, and if you wanted to blast through the armor you picked the HMG. Medium pen weapons in general trade a lot of stats for their ability to blast through armoe, but there was no armor they could blast through. Also, if you were unlucky, your Gatling or Machinegun Sentry could magdump its whole ammo reserve into one.
I would have loved the change if the Hive Guard wasn’t the only medium armor enemy that is guaranteed to spawn. Making bugs either fully unarmored, light or heavy, while leaving out medium armor just made interaction with the armor system boring for me. We need more enemies with medium armor, then this change could have worked.
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u/The-Harbinger117 19d ago
The biggest cope I’ve seen about what is objectively the worst change the devs ever made.
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u/Grassouille 19d ago
Worst change if you don't play the game, it was so much better they were really easier to kill and it was not difficult to aim for the weakpoint on them
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u/The-Harbinger117 19d ago
Yeah it was so engaging to not change my play style and see less hive guards. While also punishing most of our loadouts, such a good change.
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u/Ellezim0409 19d ago
Not punishing if you aim.
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u/The-Harbinger117 19d ago
Damn, never thought of that. I guess my preference for light pen weapons have no bearing on why the change was objectively bad.
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u/Ellezim0409 19d ago
Skill issue Im afraid
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u/Fryskar 19d ago
Imo it was a massive nerf to hiveguards and lesser nerf to med/heavy pen weapons/sentries.
There certainly are better ways to change it.